Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[In...]]

 

 

Could my symptoms have anything to do with switching from 4 doses to 3 while also changing to liquid?  Obviously the liquid can't be the issue you say, so is it the fact that I switched doses and times?  Thanks.

 

Well, I guess that could be a possibly be the reason.  Changing your dose frequency or schedule will have some effect on the concentration of the drug in your body.

 

But I don't understand why so many are unwilling to accept the most logical explanation...placebo effect.

 

Effects and side effects from placebos are NOT imaginery.  They are very real, and sometimes are actually measureable as changes in temperature (fever) pulse, blood pressure, blood sugar, etc.  They are very real; they are just caused by some agent other than the medicine.

 

In many drug trials, the number or subjects that respond to placebos is often as great as the number that respond to the actual med.

 

True.  Placebo effect accounts for most, if not all, of the effect of ADs, but I doubt you'll ever get a doctor to admit it...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zihdr36WVi4

 

But...it's important to realize that does NOT mean ADs don't work. ADs do work.  It just means that believing they will work is just as important.

 

And that's the message I keep trying to make clear here...if you believe you might have a reaction to liquid, you probably will.

 

 

But that's the thing I keep saying.  I don't *think* I will.  I don't think about it at all.  I just do it.  I go about my day.  Someone suggested I updose when I did this, but I couldn't.  So, why would an updose be recommended if placebo is all someone would feel?  Just to make the person feel as if they are better because they are taking more meds? 

As long as my symptoms seem normal, I am okay with it.  I have no expectations to feel ANY CERTAIN way.  With my mindset, I wouldn't think placebo would be an issue.  But, I'm relatively new to this and I am no doctor. 

It isn't that I'm UNWILLING to believe the placebo effect.  It is that I have no thoughts on how I will feel.  I just take it and go on about my day.  So, I really don't think "man, this liquid is going to make me feel like poop!". 

Since I don't expect to feel symptoms, but do, perhaps I should make a doc appt. 

[[ga...]]

 

 

But...it's important to realize that does NOT mean ADs don't work. ADs do work.  It just means that believing they will work is just as important.

 

 

Well, that explains why so much stuff doesn't work on me!

[[bu...]]

But even though folks don't consciously think about having a reaction, just the knowledge that it can happen is enough to initiate a response. 

 

And please note that all these thoughts I share about why folks seem to have responses to liquid are general information.  I'm really not trying to explain or pinpoint your personal circumstances.

[[bu...]]

 

 

But...it's important to realize that does NOT mean ADs don't work. ADs do work.  It just means that believing they will work is just as important.

 

 

Well, that explains why so much stuff doesn't work on me!

 

And that also is very likely.  The point is, your expectation of a therapeutic outcome will very likely have an effect on the actual outcome.

[[In...]]

But even though folks don't consciously think about having a reaction, just the knowledge that it can happen is enough to initiate a response.

 

And please note that all these thoughts I share about why folks seem to have responses to liquid are general information.  I'm really not trying to explain or pinpoint your personal circumstances.

 

 

I understand that.  And, a subconscious reaction is possible, as is most anxiety, stress, thought, etc.  Especially when we are asked, why do you feel anxious?" And we cannot answer.  It is something subconscious. 

I did start my period (sorry for all the men out there!) yesterday, which normally ramps my symptoms 10x.  So, perhaps that has something to do with it.  Today marks 1 week on part liquid. Yesterday, I had a good window and felt good most of the day, until the evening.  But, today I am pretty miserable.  But that would be the case during this time of the month anyways. 

Builder, I know you aren't trying to relate my specific circumstance.  I DO appreciate all of your knowledge and help.  I'm sure I'll be needing you and SG in the future.  (I hope that is okay!). 

You've been there and done this.  I will forge ahead and when these symptoms subside for a while, I will get with you guys about how fast I should taper.  If you'll have me. 

Thanks to you and SG who have helped so many people along the way. 

[[be...]]

Sorry to intrude, but when I started my liq taper I got sick right away also, but realized that I was off on my calculations and once I realized that I would have to be very careful, it has been uneventful and I just carried on and continued and never looked back. . I think I was overwhelmed and thinking this was Rocket Science I was too lax in my preparation. But most of all I carried on with my Life these Benzo's have taken too much of my Life, and I refuse to give it any more attention. Best to all.

[[ga...]]

 

 

But...it's important to realize that does NOT mean ADs don't work. ADs do work.  It just means that believing they will work is just as important.

 

 

Well, that explains why so much stuff doesn't work on me!

 

And that also is very likely.  The point is, your expectation of a therapeutic outcome will very likely have an effect on the actual outcome.

 

Cynical me is doomed. :'(

 

[[ga...]]

Sorry to intrude, but when I started my liq taper I got sick right away also, but realized that I was off on my calculations and once I realized that I would have to be very careful, it has been uneventful and I just carried on and continued and never looked back. . I think I was overwhelmed and thinking this was Rocket Science I was too lax in my preparation. But most of all I carried on with my Life these Benzo's have taken too much of my Life, and I refuse to give it any more attention. Best to all.

 

:clap:

 

This was also one reason I crossed. I had to dose Xanax so often my life revolved around making sure I took my meds. I began to realize this was causing anxiety and worsening my symptoms. I feel much better dosing only 3 times/day on L now. I think part of that is it allows me carry on with my life much more easily.

 

And at the moment that means goofing around online instead of finishing the laundry.   Evil laundry.

[[In...]]

Sorry to intrude, but when I started my liq taper I got sick right away also, but realized that I was off on my calculations and once I realized that I would have to be very careful, it has been uneventful and I just carried on and continued and never looked back. . I think I was overwhelmed and thinking this was Rocket Science I was too lax in my preparation. But most of all I carried on with my Life these Benzo's have taken too much of my Life, and I refuse to give it any more attention. Best to all.

 

 

How are you dosing you liquid?  And, how were you off?  I am consistent every time, but I hope I am accurate as well. 

And, no intrusion.  ☺

[[be...]]

Sorry to intrude, but when I started my liq taper I got sick right away also, but realized that I was off on my calculations and once I realized that I would have to be very careful, it has been uneventful and I just carried on and continued and never looked back. . I think I was overwhelmed and thinking this was Rocket Science I was too lax in my preparation. But most of all I carried on with my Life these Benzo's have taken too much of my Life, and I refuse to give it any more attention. Best to all.

 

:clap:

 

This was also one reason I crossed. I had to dose Xanax so often my life revolved around making sure I took my meds. I began to realize this was causing anxiety and worsening my symptoms. I feel much better dosing only 3 times/day on L now. I think part of that is it allows me carry on with my life much more easily.

 

And at the moment that means goofing around online instead of finishing the laundry.   Evil laundry.

💖👍👍💖

[[be...]]

Sorry to intrude, but when I started my liq taper I got sick right away also, but realized that I was off on my calculations and once I realized that I would have to be very careful, it has been uneventful and I just carried on and continued and never looked back. . I think I was overwhelmed and thinking this was Rocket Science I was too lax in my preparation. But most of all I carried on with my Life these Benzo's have taken too much of my Life, and I refuse to give it any more attention. Best to all.

 

 

How are you dosing you liquid?  And, how were you off?  I am consistent every time, but I hope I am accurate as well. 

And, no intrusion.  ☺

Using water and vodka, and I was so hung up on getting it right and scared, that I was not measuring correctly, I was over reacting to something that has worked for many, but I also read things about it not working and usually do not read but I took it as the Word and I set myself up to fail, but I realized what I had done and was very careful since then, and it is working fine, better than fine, but I still need to be careful and double check my brew, otherwise after that first glitch that was my fault not the lig taper I have been very pleased. 

[[bu...]]

Using water and vodka, and I was so hung up on getting it right and scared, that I was not measuring correctly, I was over reacting to something that has worked for many, but I also read things about it not working and usually do not read but I took it as the Word and I set myself up to fail, but I realized what I had done and was very careful since then, and it is working fine, better than fine, but I still need to be careful and double check my brew, otherwise after that first glitch that was my fault not the lig taper I have been very pleased. 

 

That is a perfect assessment of why folks have issues with liquid!

 

In a single sentence, you have explained what I have been trying to explain for several years.

 

Thank you for your frank analysis.

 

 

[[Ca...]]

Gard, goof away... -it makes me feel better...

 

As for this topic, Im still in the "highly unlikley" catagory...

 

Proud to be doing it the hard way...!

 

 

[Guest [ba...]]

 

 

But the point is that some people doing pills may be absorbing at a higher rate due to sublingual absorption which is not occurring when doing liquified doses.  Again, just an idea to try to explain the observed liquid v. dry difference.

 

There is no doubt that sublingual route will likely cause significant difference from oral (liquid or pill) route.  There will almost certainly be a faster onset.

 

But very few, if any, folks with scrips for benzos are taking them sublingually.  Most folks find the taste pretty unpleasant.

 

I will acknowledge that if someone is currently taking their benzo sublingually, and switches to liquid oral route, yes, there will likely be a noticeable difference in effect.  But that really doesn't provide any logic for a difference in oral tablets and oral liquid.

 

I agree that the taste is unpleasant.  Back when I took those pills, I'd put one in my mouth, fill a cup with water then drink it down.  The pill was probably sitting in my mouth for a good 5-10 seconds.  There would surely be some sublingual absorption in that time, and the degree of that absorption would increase significantly if pill pieces or crushed pill were used (since the surface area is dramatically increased).

[[Ma...]]

I've hit a rough patch with sleep.  I am going to hold until I find some solution. Started getting bad within last week. Last nite, for 1st time ,I could not get back to sleep at 2 after taking 5 mg valium and 15.mg traz. I have been tapering trazadone . Now I'm thinking of going back up to 50.  I ve been in a good place for 6 weeks with no holds.  Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Can I take a doxi sleep aid with all these other drugs?

[[...]]

Magnolis, I'm so sorry you have hit a rough patch with sleep. That really makes things hard. I wish I had information for you. I hope someone will have some ideas for you.

 

 

I keep track of my sxs on a chart the Dr. Glenmullen made up. On the bottom there is a row for how your day as a whole is. He rates from 1-10 with 10 being the worst. I thought I was normally hanging around a baseline of five but I went back through all of my charts and found that I'm more often at a seven or eight. Lots of ups and downs from six to eight mostly. With my sxs that high all of the time it's hard to know when or how to taper as even the smallest cut .004mg caused increased sxs. I'm not sure whether to bite the bullet and do bigger cuts, taper daily, or continue trying a sxs based taper. I feel like it will take an eternity to get off with  the sxs based as I will spend more time not tapering and then when I do taper it will only be tiny amounts. I'm very frustrated.

 

I asked my dr how most people who are as sensitive as I am taper and he said "they don't, they just up the dose and stay on". There is no way that I can do that as the drugs are making me anxious and agoraphobic and brain dead too. I can't imagine living like that for the rest of my life.

 

Just needed to vent my frustration at feeling bad so much of the time.

 

I know I can do this even if it is going to be harder than I thought. I really thought the daily micro taper was going to make things bearable. I had such high hopes and was excited to get started. Things did not go like I thought they would at all. I'll just keep plugging along and trying to reduce when and as I can. Like my psychologist says when I reduce I can say good by to that number forever.  A little progress is better than none.

 

Hugs and healing everyone. We will get there!

 

[[Ul...]]

Magnolis, I'm so sorry you have hit a rough patch with sleep. That really makes things hard. I wish I had information for you. I hope someone will have some ideas for you.

 

 

I keep track of my sxs on a chart the Dr. Glenmullen made up. On the bottom there is a row for how your day as a whole is. He rates from 1-10 with 10 being the worst. I thought I was normally hanging around a baseline of five but I went back through all of my charts and found that I'm more often at a seven or eight. Lots of ups and downs from six to eight mostly. With my sxs that high all of the time it's hard to know when or how to taper as even the smallest cut .004mg caused increased sxs. I'm not sure whether to bite the bullet and do bigger cuts, taper daily, or continue trying a sxs based taper. I feel like it will take an eternity to get off with  the sxs based as I will spend more time not tapering and then when I do taper it will only be tiny amounts. I'm very frustrated.

 

I asked my dr how most people who are as sensitive as I am taper and he said "they don't, they just up the dose and stay on". There is no way that I can do that as the drugs are making me anxious and agoraphobic and brain dead too. I can't imagine living like that for the rest of my life.

 

Just needed to vent my frustration at feeling bad so much of the time.

 

I know I can do this even if it is going to be harder than I thought. I really thought the daily micro taper was going to make things bearable. I had such high hopes and was excited to get started. Things did not go like I thought they would at all. I'll just keep plugging along and trying to reduce when and as I can. Like my psychologist says when I reduce I can say good by to that number forever.  A little progress is better than none.

 

Hugs and healing everyone. We will get there!

 

Up dose and stay there? REALLY?? And what does he do when that person hits tolerance at that level? What a fool. Doctors are so clueless. Anyway, I hope you start feeling better soon. Keep that faith!

 

Jeff

[[Ul...]]

I've hit a rough patch with sleep.  I am going to hold until I find some solution. Started getting bad within last week. Last nite, for 1st time ,I could not get back to sleep at 2 after taking 5 mg valium and 15.mg traz. I have been tapering trazadone . Now I'm thinking of going back up to 50.  I ve been in a good place for 6 weeks with no holds.  Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Can I take a doxi sleep aid with all these other drugs?

 

Holy smokes! When you find a cure for the sleep thing, then let me know! I literally haven't slept worth snot since the day I began tapering about a year and nine months ago. Every night is a terror. I think I've tried everything (no meds...can't have another one of those). Hang in there, Magnolis. We'll all eventually find the road that leads us to our promised land

 

Jeff

[[...]]

Jeff,

 

I don't know how you do it and keep such a postive attitude. I really admire that. I at least have been getting sleep so far but I think the other med I'm on helps with that.

 

I'm sorry to hear that every night is a terror. I can't imagine dealing with that. How do you manage a sxs based taper if you are always having sxs? Serious questions as I'm there too just with different sxs.

 

Yeah, I don't know what he does with them. I was at tolerance and having sxs before I started my taper so I can't imagine the dosage I would need. I upped it twice over the summer and the improvement in my sxs only lasted two weeks each. I asked him how high I would need to be on a dose because I adapt so quickly and he said NASA high! In other words it wouldn't work for me! I guess the other people don't have the tolerance problem. Still, can you imagine what it's doing to their brains 

 

If I was on a dose that high I would be a space cadet 

 

Every dose reduction is a step in the right direction!! Well get there one small step, or cut, at a time .

 

Hugs 

[[Me...]]

Once you take Trazadone below about 50 mg, it can often have the opposite affect and cause insomnia. It has a distant mechanism on Histamine and can cause histamine to increase and create stimulation. I don't know how long you've been on Trazadone but you may want to consider holding at 50mg until all your other tapers a finished. Trazadone typically isn't difficult to get off of in respects to symptoms. It would be the last drug I would stop and I cut mine from 250mg down to 50 and then jumped off there to avoid it's reverse affects when cut below 50mg. I then substituted Tylenol PM ( a mixed of Tylenol and diphenhydramine aka benadryl) to help with sleep if and when I needed it. Best wishes for a smooth taper. Peace

Mellowplease

[[Ma...]]

Thank you. I did not know that about trazadone.  I am going back up to 50mg and not worry about that taper now . I have heard it's nothing like a benzo taper.

[[Ca...]]

Sometimes stopping can be just the answer... A long hold while sx reduce and the brain heals can make future reductions much more productive...

Holding is Healing..

 

Best wishes...

[[ka...]]

Magnolis, I'm so sorry you have hit a rough patch with sleep. That really makes things hard. I wish I had information for you. I hope someone will have some ideas for you.

 

 

I keep track of my sxs on a chart the Dr. Glenmullen made up. On the bottom there is a row for how your day as a whole is. He rates from 1-10 with 10 being the worst. I thought I was normally hanging around a baseline of five but I went back through all of my charts and found that I'm more often at a seven or eight. Lots of ups and downs from six to eight mostly. With my sxs that high all of the time it's hard to know when or how to taper as even the smallest cut .004mg caused increased sxs. I'm not sure whether to bite the bullet and do bigger cuts, taper daily, or continue trying a sxs based taper. I feel like it will take an eternity to get off with  the sxs based as I will spend more time not tapering and then when I do taper it will only be tiny amounts. I'm very frustrated.

 

I asked my dr how most people who are as sensitive as I am taper and he said "they don't, they just up the dose and stay on". There is no way that I can do that as the drugs are making me anxious and agoraphobic and brain dead too. I can't imagine living like that for the rest of my life.

 

Just needed to vent my frustration at feeling bad so much of the time.

 

I know I can do this even if it is going to be harder than I thought. I really thought the daily micro taper was going to make things bearable. I had such high hopes and was excited to get started. Things did not go like I thought they would at all. I'll just keep plugging along and trying to reduce when and as I can. Like my psychologist says when I reduce I can say good by to that number forever.  A little progress is better than none.

 

Hugs and healing everyone. We will get there!

 

My sentiments exactly, thanks for articulating my thoughts!! 

[[Ma...]]

 

Tntd,

 

My dr said the same thing when I asked. Or he said we switch out the drug for another benzo. 

He said few people have the guts to do what you are doing. 

 

It is so hard. Not sleeping. The whole change in life.

There is an end game,for us.

[[...]]

Sometimes stopping can be just the answer... A long hold while sx reduce and the brain heals can make future reductions much more productive...

Holding is Healing..

 

Best wishes...

 

:thumbsup: