Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[bu...]]

  could it be because in essense we are basically changing our dose amounts usually when crossing to liquid, down dosing some doses and updosing other doses and this is an adjustment? and most of us have made mistakes already and cns sensitive? maybe an idea...

 

Yes, that could certainly be true.  But then the reaction was caused by the change in dosage, NOT by the change to liquid.

 

And folks sometimes are hit with residual sxs from earlier tapering.  And folks certainly make mistakes in preparing their liquid  and metering out their doses.  But taking the med in liquid form did not cause the issues.

[[bu...]]

Well i have settled out over the last few days... so maybe the placebo got drunk and went to sleep...

I am rather sure that for me it was nothing to do with the valium being in a tablet or liquid form...

-I think it was a reaction to the alcohol (2ml) in each dose... and that this was a personal thing for me. Its been like this for 20yrs or so, to some extent, Im just a bit more sensitive and vaunerable right now...

When i drank more water with my dose things got better quick... 

 

So -less than a week of yuck, (digestive, fatigue and sleep patern), and all is fine... -less pain than a normal cut...  -Ready to go...

 

Probably a better way for me is to squirt it in a glass of water or juice, rather than suck it out of the syringe, so to speak...

 

Pls dont make me mix water and vodka with NO Valium, to prove my theory, that only really applies to me anyway...!!!

Cheers...

 

It is possible (but not very likely) that some folks can have some side effects from the solvent (alcohol or propylene glycol)

[[Ca...]]

Thats correct builder, -in the last 20 or so years i havnt come across many people at all that react to  "one drink" like i do...

The joys of over indulgance as a teenager...

This was more than i imagined considering the quantities... But amidst medical chaos, what can one Expect???

Today was much better... Thats the bit that matters...

Thus far, I dont regret my decision to DLMT...

 

But i would also hate to be like some not so good Drs, and dismiss a significant number of people that raise concern...  i think there may well be a reason for an increase in sx, -just perhaps not the one we expect, or perhaps as many as there are people that have this problem...

 

[[In...]]

  could it be because in essense we are basically changing our dose amounts usually when crossing to liquid, down dosing some doses and updosing other doses and this is an adjustment? and most of us have made mistakes already and cns sensitive? maybe an idea...

 

Yes, that could certainly be true.  But then the reaction was caused by the change in dosage, NOT by the change to liquid.

 

And folks sometimes are hit with residual sxs from earlier tapering.  And folks certainly make mistakes in preparing their liquid  and metering out their doses.  But taking the med in liquid form did not cause the issues.

 

 

So, since I changed to partial liquid and pills AND ALSO changed my doses, my symptoms are probably from the change in doses, correct?  Since they mostly happen directly in between my doses, should they subside with time it would that be interdose?  And, if I'm going to level out, it should take 2-4 weeks, correct? 

Also, I use the exact same method to make my liquid everyday.  I use 3ml PG and 497ml water with a 5mg valium.  Then I try to use a 60ml syringe and a 1ml syringe to put 166.66ml per dose.  However, I find that I don't always have EXACTLY the amount I should, for my last bowl (I measure all three doses into a bowl in the morning to be sure they are "equal").  My bowls all look even, so I don't worry about is that okay?  Consistency, correct? 

[[ho...]]

  could it be because in essense we are basically changing our dose amounts usually when crossing to liquid, down dosing some doses and updosing other doses and this is an adjustment? and most of us have made mistakes already and cns sensitive? maybe an idea...

 

Yes, that could certainly be true.  But then the reaction was caused by the change in dosage, NOT by the change to liquid.

 

And folks sometimes are hit with residual sxs from earlier tapering.  And folks certainly make mistakes in preparing their liquid  and metering out their doses.  But taking the med in liquid form did not cause the issues.

well that is the only reasonable explanation after laying awake night after night thinking about this, taking in all the variables, that that is the reason, and placebo in some cases and human error. And reactions to solvents. Plus any previous changes made before starting the liquid. 

[[bu...]]

  well that is the only reasonable explanation after laying awake night after night thinking about this, taking in all the variables, that that is the reason, and placebo in some cases and human error. And reactions to solvents. Plus any previous changes made before starting the liquid.

 

[[ho...]]

  could it be because in essense we are basically changing our dose amounts usually when crossing to liquid, down dosing some doses and updosing other doses and this is an adjustment? and most of us have made mistakes already and cns sensitive? maybe an idea...

 

Yes, that could certainly be true.  But then the reaction was caused by the change in dosage, NOT by the change to liquid.

 

And folks sometimes are hit with residual sxs from earlier tapering.  And folks certainly make mistakes in preparing their liquid  and metering out their doses.  But taking the med in liquid form did not cause the issues.

 

 

So, since I changed to partial liquid and pills AND ALSO changed my doses, my symptoms are probably from the change in doses, correct?  Since they mostly happen directly in between my doses, should they subside with time it would that be interdose?  And, if I'm going to level out, it should take 2-4 weeks, correct? 

Also, I use the exact same method to make my liquid everyday.  I use 3ml PG and 497ml water with a 5mg valium.  Then I try to use a 60ml syringe and a 1ml syringe to put 166.66ml per dose.  However, I find that I don't always have EXACTLY the amount I should, for my last bowl (I measure all three doses into a bowl in the morning to be sure they are "equal").  My bowls all look even, so I don't worry about is that okay?  Consistency, correct?

hi inner I know that when I changed how many times a day I was dosing I had to adjust to that. But it went away.

[[ho...]]

Well i have settled out over the last few days... so maybe the placebo got drunk and went to sleep...

I am rather sure that for me it was nothing to do with the valium being in a tablet or liquid form...

-I think it was a reaction to the alcohol (2ml) in each dose... and that this was a personal thing for me. Its been like this for 20yrs or so, to some extent, Im just a bit more sensitive and vaunerable right now...

When i drank more water with my dose things got better quick... 

 

So -less than a week of yuck, (digestive, fatigue and sleep patern), and all is fine... -less pain than a normal cut...  -Ready to go...

 

Probably a better way for me is to squirt it in a glass of water or juice, rather than suck it out of the syringe, so to speak...

 

Pls dont make me mix water and vodka with NO Valium, to prove my theory, that only really applies to me anyway...!!!

Cheers...

I'm glad you're feeling better can't fly and have adjusted. Less concentrated I guess was your issue. Keep on going!

[[ho...]]

I mix with fat milk and that works fine for me Cantfly !

oh I love when I find milk people! as I plan to continue my taper with milk. I'm glad it's working for you!

[[ho...]]

 

I know some people aren't bothered and others are.  No idea why.  Could be placebo.  But I honestly don't have an expectation to feel any way, other than get up and go about my day.  What happens, happens.  I just wanted to run it by people who have done this before and have been around longer than I have to ensure it is normal.  That's all.

 

There is no other logical explanation.  How is swallowing a tablet with a glass of water any different than taking the same amount of the same med as a liquid?  Once you swallow the tablet, its liquid within seconds anyway.

 

And even among those who say its different, they report different effects.  Some say its faster, some say its slower.  Some say its stronger, some way its weaker.

 

And like I said, on BDR, where everyone was on liquid, there was never any discussion about liquid causing any issues.

 

In my case, I am on capsules that are very slow to dissolve. Actually, they don't dissolve in anything I've tried and shellac is one of their ingredients.  So when I dumped them into vodka, I may have changed where and how fast the med was absorbed in the digestive tract. I noticed an uptick in symptoms, so I did one small capsule at a time and waited a week in between. I have another med that is a tablet and disintegrates in plain old water very quickly. No change in symptoms when I suspended that one. I did not add a solvent, however, just water. I sometimes wonder if adding a solvent changes something. But I am no biochemist. I think being paranoid does increase symptoms, so I always make changes slowly and in very small increments to make me less paranoid. And thumbs up to avoiding horror stories as much as possible. I think even Ashton says focusing on symptoms can make symptoms worse. Worry does cause chemical changes in the body so it is perfectly rational. Maybe this isn't rational, but when I am in a bad wave, I mostly stay off BB, just skimming to find the posts of people I know the best and posting little or nothing. Then focusing my my mind on other things the rest of the day.

 

Gard

hi gard I'm glad you got your taper down . Worrying about withdrawal is a symptom of withdrawal so hence our paranoia. That fear part of our brain has to heal. Also the power of suggestion is very strong in our state so I agree with staying away from horror stories but unfortunately run across them. I've spoke to many people who once they got their taper down got off of here only to check in occasionally. I think that is the healthiest thing. I've noticed a lot of people view this group as a you're one of us now mentality and I think it's extremely unhealthy. Its basic Sociology really. Get a group full of people who believe one thing, by the end of it, they all believe it. Especially in our states of mind. Just my take on it. Keep on going! 

[Guest [ba...]]

One source of variability in liquid versus solid could be due to the effects of first pass metabolism.  Pills (especially pill pieces) begin to dissolve in the mouth and some of the medicine is absorbed sublingually.  Sublingual absorption doesn't happen with all meds, but it works pretty well with many benzos.  The longer you keep the pill in your mouth before washing it down, the more will be absorbed sublingually.  Sublingual absorption circumvents first pass metabolism.

 

Meds that are swallowed as a liquid are probably very poorly absorbed sublingually since the liquid is usually swallowed quickly.  So more of a liquid dose will be subject to first pass metabolism.

 

Thoughts??

[[ho...]]

One source of variability in liquid versus solid could be due to the effects of first pass metabolism.  Pills (especially pill pieces) begin to dissolve in the mouth and some of the medicine is absorbed sublingually.  Sublingual absorption doesn't happen with all meds, but it works pretty well with many benzos.  The longer you keep the pill in your mouth before washing it down, the more will be absorbed sublingually.  Sublingual absorption circumvents first pass metabolism.

 

Meds that are swallowed as a liquid are probably very poorly absorbed sublingually since the liquid is usually swallowed quickly.  So more of a liquid dose will be subject to first pass metabolism.

 

Thoughts??

builder said the liquid goes through the digestive system same as taking a pill and swallowing with liquid. I have (before withdrawal) let pills dissolve in my mouth (sublingual/buccual method) and ABSOLUTELY hit me like a ton of bricks. Builder told me and I researched it, it's because those methods bypass the digestive track and go straight to the blood stream. There's millions of capillaries in our mouths. I know when I did let those pills dissolve in my mouth, (I did it a few times) it was a totally different feeling and within seconds. Hated it.

[Guest [ba...]]

I nearly passed out once letting a pill dissolve completely sublingually instead of swallowing it. 

 

This first pass thing is very dependent on the drug.  Some have to be metabolized in order for them to work.  Some work straight away.

[[Ul...]]

  the jury is still out about why people sometimes feel symptoms from changing to liquid and some dont. ive asked every person i can find. it does seem to be a common thing. however its suggested as the way to get off a  lot. so still trying to make up my mind if i want to go that route. but many people seem to use it as a method to get off. some of have symptoms from the change some dont. however if you did any type of dose changes meaning switch from 3 to 4 or whatever that could be adding to symptoms. every change we make affects us. if you go to the titration board im sure builder will have a response about the change to liquid. hope you feel better.

 

Well, I put this together a while back when I pointed out that the folks on Benzo Detox Recovery, which was basically daily liquid taper forum, never complained about having any problems with liquid.

 

Everyone here wants to ignore a very logical explanation, and try to find a completely illogical one.

 

So here goes...

 

This  will piss some folks off (but a lot of my posts do). 

 

BB is a scary, doom-and-gloom forum.  New folks post almost every day that what see here  scares them to death.  It causes panic, terror, anxiety, etc.    I get PMs asking if all the horror stories could be true. The vast majority of posts on BB talk about misery and sufferering. 

 

We actually have seperate forums to share dozens of different sxs.We have forums about dizziness, hair loss, digestive disorders, urinary disorders, sleep disorders,  de-personalization/de-realization, lonliness, weight loss/weight gain, panic disorders.  We have discussions about conditions that don't appear in any literature, except here on BB.

 

Benzo Detox Recovery was about recovery...about getting off of benzos.

 

 

I am in no way offended by your answer.  I do not read the doom and gloom stories on here, nor do I have any expectations for how I will feel.  I just know what has actually happened.  All I wanted to know was if it sounded normal for moving from 4 doses to 3 while also switching that "lost" dose to liquid.  If they weren't "normal or typical" I was going to make an appt with my doc.  I know you can cause yourself to feel bad, just by thinking it.  But, honestly, I still have to take care of my kids, and do my normal daily routine.  Us I started my own business.  So, I  just want to be sure these should subside as my body adjusts to the changes in dosing times and method....

I know some people aren't bothered and others are.  No idea why.  Could be placebo.  But I honestly don't have an expectation to feel any way, other than get up and go about my day.  What happens, happens.  I just wanted to run it by people who have done this before and have been around longer than I have to ensure it is normal.  That's all.

 

Well said, Inner. The bottom line is simply that everybody out there is different, right? Case and point. Seems like everybody has a different ride/journey. I've hardly ever been to other threads here or to any other sites out there other than BB. I just try my best to cut a little when I can and then go on about my day. Personally, I believe psychology and mindset play a significant role in anything that anybody does. Some people say, "if you believe it, you can achieve it". Heck, maybe some of those things are things we don't want to achieve! If we believe this is going to be a road from hell, then it more than likely will be. I hope you go have fun with your kids and business, and that you just move down this path of tapering and handle what comes your way each day...and then forget about it. Yes!!

 

Bless ya!

 

Jeff

[[ho...]]

I nearly passed out once letting a pill dissolve completely sublingually instead of swallowing it. 

 

This first pass thing is very dependent on the drug.  Some have to be metabolized in order for them to work.  Some work straight away.

I can't believe you almost passed out, I felt the same way very dizzy completely out of it and just WEIRD. And not pleasant.

[Guest [ba...]]

I was in my bathroom and made a beeline for my bed.  I just sort of fell onto it and regrouped.  Not pleasant.  Didn't do that again.

 

But the point is that some people doing pills may be absorbing at a higher rate due to sublingual absorption which is not occurring when doing liquified doses.  Again, just an idea to try to explain the observed liquid v. dry difference.

[[ho...]]

I was in my bathroom and made a beeline for my bed.  I just sort of fell onto it and regrouped.  Not pleasant.  Didn't do that again.

 

But the point is that some people doing pills may be absorbing at a higher rate due to sublingual absorption which is not occurring when doing liquified doses.  Again, just an idea to try to explain the observed liquid v. dry difference.

could be truth to that. I see what you mean.

[[Ma...]]

Because  I didn't want to poison myself with gelatin caps ( I know this is almost laughable), I opened the temazapam caps and swallowed the powder. In June , I forgot and swallowed the 2nd capsule. It was as if I took nothing.  The next day I went into full blown withdrawal. This theory explains what happened.

[[Ki...]]

I had never thought about it since w/d ht me but when I used to get what I now know to be interdose wd sx I would nibble the end off an ambien and let it sit in my mouth (like I was being discreet nibbling off the tip of a pill!)... I took ambien and xanax and nibbling the xanax was too much since I just took it for sleep. But that little nibble of ambien shut down those symptoms almost immediately. I was always wondering what it was...

[[ho...]]

I had never thought about it since w/d ht me but when I used to get what I now know to be interdose wd sx I would nibble the end off an ambien and let it sit in my mouth (like I was being discreet nibbling off the tip of a pill!)... I took ambien and xanax and nibbling the xanax was too much since I just took it for sleep. But that little nibble of ambien shut down those symptoms almost immediately. I was always wondering what it was...

I like how you said nibble  yes sublingual/buccual method, hits bloodstream in seconds. Hit me like a ton of bricks. Did not like it! 

[[bu...]]

 

 

But the point is that some people doing pills may be absorbing at a higher rate due to sublingual absorption which is not occurring when doing liquified doses.  Again, just an idea to try to explain the observed liquid v. dry difference.

 

There is no doubt that sublingual route will likely cause significant difference from oral (liquid or pill) route.  There will almost certainly be a faster onset.

 

But very few, if any, folks with scrips for benzos are taking them sublingually.  Most folks find the taste pretty unpleasant.

 

I will acknowledge that if someone is currently taking their benzo sublingually, and switches to liquid oral route, yes, there will likely be a noticeable difference in effect.  But that really doesn't provide any logic for a difference in oral tablets and oral liquid.

[[In...]]

 

I know some people aren't bothered and others are.  No idea why.  Could be placebo.  But I honestly don't have an expectation to feel any way, other than get up and go about my day.  What happens, happens.  I just wanted to run it by people who have done this before and have been around longer than I have to ensure it is normal.  That's all.

 

There is no other logical explanation.  How is swallowing a tablet with a glass of water any different than taking the same amount of the same med as a liquid?  Once you swallow the tablet, its liquid within seconds anyway.

 

And even among those who say its different, they report different effects.  Some say its faster, some say its slower.  Some say its stronger, some way its weaker.

 

And like I said, on BDR, where everyone was on liquid, there was never any discussion about liquid causing any issues.

 

 

Could my symptoms have anything to do with switching from 4 doses to 3 while also changing to liquid?  Obviously the liquid can't be the issue you say, so is it the fact that I switched doses and times?  Thanks.

[[bu...]]

 

 

Could my symptoms have anything to do with switching from 4 doses to 3 while also changing to liquid?  Obviously the liquid can't be the issue you say, so is it the fact that I switched doses and times?  Thanks.

 

Well, I guess that could be a possibly be the reason.  Changing your dose frequency or schedule will have some effect on the concentration of the drug in your body.

 

But I don't understand why so many are unwilling to accept the most logical explanation...placebo effect.

 

Effects and side effects from placebos are NOT imaginery.  They are very real, and sometimes are actually measureable as changes in temperature (fever) pulse, blood pressure, blood sugar, etc.  They are very real; they are just caused by some agent other than the medicine.

 

In many drug trials, the number or subjects that respond to placebos is often as great as the number that respond to the actual med.

[[...]]

 

 

Could my symptoms have anything to do with switching from 4 doses to 3 while also changing to liquid?  Obviously the liquid can't be the issue you say, so is it the fact that I switched doses and times?  Thanks.

 

Well, I guess that could be a possibly be the reason.  Changing your dose frequency or schedule will have some effect on the concentration of the drug in your body.

 

But I don't understand why so many are unwilling to accept the most logical explanation...placebo effect.

 

Effects and side effects from placebos are NOT imaginery.  They are very real, and sometimes are actually measureable as changes in temperature (fever) pulse, blood pressure, blood sugar, etc.  They are very real; they are just caused by some agent other than the medicine.

 

In many drug trials, the number or subjects that respond to placebos is often as great as the number that respond to the actual med.

 

True.  Placebo effect accounts for most, if not all, of the effect of ADs, but I doubt you'll ever get a doctor to admit it...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zihdr36WVi4

[[bu...]]

 

 

Could my symptoms have anything to do with switching from 4 doses to 3 while also changing to liquid?  Obviously the liquid can't be the issue you say, so is it the fact that I switched doses and times?  Thanks.

 

Well, I guess that could be a possibly be the reason.  Changing your dose frequency or schedule will have some effect on the concentration of the drug in your body.

 

But I don't understand why so many are unwilling to accept the most logical explanation...placebo effect.

 

Effects and side effects from placebos are NOT imaginery.  They are very real, and sometimes are actually measureable as changes in temperature (fever) pulse, blood pressure, blood sugar, etc.  They are very real; they are just caused by some agent other than the medicine.

 

In many drug trials, the number or subjects that respond to placebos is often as great as the number that respond to the actual med.

 

True.  Placebo effect accounts for most, if not all, of the effect of ADs, but I doubt you'll ever get a doctor to admit it...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zihdr36WVi4

 

But...it's important to realize that does NOT mean ADs don't work. ADs do work.  It just means that believing they will work is just as important.

 

And that's the message I keep trying to make clear here...if you believe you might have a reaction to liquid, you probably will.