Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[Ul...]]

tntd, Genetic testing can reveal the levels of your liver enzymes. Certain enzymes metabolize certain drugs. If you have high levels, you are fast metabolizer of those drugs.

 

That is a very simplistic explanation, but as much as I understand.

 

So I gotta ask...you get a test done and find out that you have some "abnormality",  that may or may not effect how you respond to a med.  Now what?

 

If in fact your metabolism is slower or faster than some else's,  what are you going to do differently?  If you are for example, metabolize your benzo more quickly than normal, that was true before you started to taper. So if there was no problem before you atarted to taper, why should it be a problem during your taper? As I understand, a fast metabolizer would be like taking a lower dose each day.  So if Judy was taking 10mg/day, and Jane was taking 8mg/day, are they supposed to do their tapers differently?

 

Regardless of your metabolism, a symptom-based taper will tell you how to proceed.

 

JMHO

 

Very well said! Right down to the point.

[[Ki...]]

It does actually matter, especially when crossing over! It makes a big difference when planning, and some folks may be on this thread  during that time. I know one day it will become a part of a normal blood test, and hopefully drug metabolism will be better understood ( especially by doctors since mine didnt seem to be aware of that)... the more you know the easier it is to know why things happen. Metabolism can change just by the foods you eat. You could think you need to slow down when really you might have just eaten something or taken another drug that reduced the effectiveness. Just my take on it, but I think it can make a huge difference to someone no matter if they are symptom based or not. An unusual metabolizer really could benefit from doing a little more homework.

 

(Modified due to writing something wrong as usual!)

[[ga...]]

tntd, Genetic testing can reveal the levels of your liver enzymes. Certain enzymes metabolize certain drugs. If you have high levels, you are fast metabolizer of those drugs.

 

That is a very simplistic explanation, but as much as I understand.

 

So I gotta ask...you get a test done and find out that you have some "abnormality",  that may or may not effect how you respond to a med.  Now what?

 

If in fact your metabolism is slower or faster than some else's,  what are you going to do differently?  If you are for example, metabolize your benzo more quickly than normal, that was true before you started to taper. So if there was no problem before you atarted to taper, why should it be a problem during your taper? As I understand, a fast metabolizer would be like taking a lower dose each day.  So if Judy was taking 10mg/day, and Jane was taking 8mg/day, are they supposed to do their tapers differently?

 

Regardless of your metabolism, a symptom-based taper will tell you how to proceed.

 

JMHO

 

Agreed, but with some caveats.

 

I decided to cross to L rather than V because the printout from the lab told my doctor to "consider an alternative therapy" rather than prescribe V because I had inherited the same fast-processor allele of the gene for that enzyme from each parent so am a super-fast processor. (More typical to get one of the alleles and just be a fast processor.)

 

I also found I completely lack an enzyme that is used by the liver to process many meds and can easily overdose on them. In fact, before I knew this, I almost died from a normal dose of one med. Turns out I inherited the same completely non-functioning allele from each of my parents for that enzyme. Just weird.

 

Genetic testing to reveal liver enzyme profiles is becoming more common because there can be really serious consequences in some cases. In other cases it may only be a minor effect. For example, you might have to dose the med more often to avoid inter-dose w/d if you are a fast metabolizer of it.

 

Gard

[[Pl...]]

Hi Builder,

 

I have been having the hardest time and I've been taking breaks as I've had to implement a new strategy...

 

        I wasnt sure where to ask this so my apologies if in the wrong place..., I've asked others although not everyone whose opinions I value ;but I haven't asked you....here it goes:

 

I've noticed when it comes to dose corrections and/or doing long holds Valium seems to be more forgiving and doable in achieving that as opposed to kolonopin in reaching some form of stability...I ve seen this over and over again....something about this k just doesn't seem to act as well in that regard

 

1) In your experience on this forum have you noticed the same thing?

 

2) if your cns has already become very "sensitized" and you are doing this a second time with overlapping sxs from the first rapid taper do you think its possible to reach a form of stabilization?

Isn't it harder to come back down? ( well, I guess it would be easier to come down from a point of stability then not; but just asking)

 

I know these questions are very subjective but anectodally, I wonder if you have had any observations if anything on this...

 

Thank you

[[bu...]]

 

 

I've noticed when it comes to dose corrections and/or doing long holds Valium seems to be more forgiving and doable in achieving that as opposed to kolonopin in reaching some form of stability...I ve seen this over and over again....something about this k just doesn't seem to act as well in that regard

 

1) In your experience on this forum have you noticed the same thing?

 

Valium is almost certainly the easiest benzo to taper/withdraw from (NOTE: That does not necessarily mean everyone should cross to V) Because of its long half-life and relatively low potency, V is kinda "self-tapering".  That's why Ashton recommended crossing to V for a taper.  Comparatively, K is higher potency, and has a shorter (but not "short") half life.

 

2) if your cns has already become very "sensitized" and you are doing this a second time with overlapping sxs from the first rapid taper do you think its possible to reach a form of stabilization?

Isn't it harder to come back down? ( well, I guess it would be easier to come down from a point of stability then not; but just asking)

 

Personally, I updosed numerous times, and did several holds,  during the whole span of my taper (starting with C&H and then DLMT).  I have never noticed starting and stopping, updosing, holding, etc. ever made future taper progress any more difficult.  Folks here on BB often get upset when I suggest that their sxs could be" placebo effect", but it seems almost a certainty that if you have already had a difficult experience, you are going to feel more anxiety about trying again.  And that will almost certainly make it more difficult.

 

I know these questions are very subjective but anectodally, I wonder if you have had any observations if anything on this...

 

Thank you

[[Pl...]]

 

 

I've noticed when it comes to dose corrections and/or doing long holds Valium seems to be more forgiving and doable in achieving that as opposed to kolonopin in reaching some form of stability...I ve seen this over and over again....something about this k just doesn't seem to act as well in that regard

 

1) In your experience on this forum have you noticed the same thing?

 

Valium is almost certainly the easiest benzo to taper/withdraw from (NOTE: That does not necessarily mean everyone should cross to V) Because of its low half-life and relatively low potency, V is kinda "self-tapering".  That's why Ashton recommended crossing to V for a taper.  Comparatively, K is higher potency, and has a shorter (but not "short") half life.

 

2) if your cns has already become very "sensitized" and you are doing this a second time with overlapping sxs from the first rapid taper do you think its possible to reach a form of stabilization?

Isn't it harder to come back down? ( well, I guess it would be easier to come down from a point of stability then not; but just asking)

 

Personally, I updosed numerous times, and did several holds,  during the whole span of my taper (starting with C&H and then DLMT).  I have never noticed starting and stopping, updosing, holding, etc. ever made future taper progress any more difficult.  Folks here on BB often get upset when I suggest that their sxs could be" placebo effect", but it seems almost a certainty that if you have already had a difficult experience, you are going to feel more anxiety about trying again.  And that will almost certainly make it more difficult.

 

I know these questions are very subjective but anectodally, I wonder if you have had any observations if anything on this...

 

Thank you

 

thanks for answering that, builder....do you know anything about Librium as compared to tapering Valium?

 

Gard, I believe that's what your tapering? can you function on it as in not too sedating? Easy to taper?

 

I am not stable enough to taper from kolonopin but I cannot handle the strength...I am holding....

I couldn't handle any more changes now to cns just curious.... K is not the drug for me.....Superbad its effects on me....but can't reduce....

 

Thank you both....

[[ga...]]

 

 

I've noticed when it comes to dose corrections and/or doing long holds Valium seems to be more forgiving and doable in achieving that as opposed to kolonopin in reaching some form of stability...I ve seen this over and over again....something about this k just doesn't seem to act as well in that regard

 

1) In your experience on this forum have you noticed the same thing?

 

Valium is almost certainly the easiest benzo to taper/withdraw from (NOTE: That does not necessarily mean everyone should cross to V) Because of its low half-life and relatively low potency, V is kinda "self-tapering".  That's why Ashton recommended crossing to V for a taper.  Comparatively, K is higher potency, and has a shorter (but not "short") half life.

 

2) if your cns has already become very "sensitized" and you are doing this a second time with overlapping sxs from the first rapid taper do you think its possible to reach a form of stabilization?

Isn't it harder to come back down? ( well, I guess it would be easier to come down from a point of stability then not; but just asking)

 

Personally, I updosed numerous times, and did several holds,  during the whole span of my taper (starting with C&H and then DLMT).  I have never noticed starting and stopping, updosing, holding, etc. ever made future taper progress any more difficult.  Folks here on BB often get upset when I suggest that their sxs could be" placebo effect", but it seems almost a certainty that if you have already had a difficult experience, you are going to feel more anxiety about trying again.  And that will almost certainly make it more difficult.

 

I know these questions are very subjective but anectodally, I wonder if you have had any observations if anything on this...

 

Thank you

 

thanks for answering that, builder....do you know anything about Librium as compared to tapering Valium?

 

Gard, I believe that's what your tapering? can you function on it as in not too sedating? Easy to taper?

 

I am not stable enough to taper from kolonopin but I cannot handle the strength...I am holding....

I couldn't handle any more changes now to cns just curious.... K is not the drug for me.....Superbad its effects on me....but can't reduce....

 

Thank you both....

 

Please, I think builder meant long half life for V.

 

Librium is very similar to Valium except that it's a nuisance to taper because it only comes in capsules in this country and because there is convincing evidence that it is not stable as a liquid. I have to mix my dose and pull and pitch every night. L has the same active metabolites as V and similar side effects. At 30mg/day, I can function enough to take care of myself most days.

 

I was half-crossed for awhile during my taper. I reduced a tiny bit of X and added a tiny bit of L, again and again until I felt I was balanced well. Then I resumed my X taper. I was lucky I had a doctor who was willing to do this. (Sadly, he moved out of the area and I had to finish my crossover.)

 

I echo builder's idea that some symptoms could be anxiety caused by association. I call it "learned anxiety." I know I have this. I had such a horrible, long crash from tapering X that my brain associates the meds and the tapering with danger and becomes anxious.

 

When I started my taper up again, I did it so slowly I knew the w/d was not causing the symptoms. The cut was way too small. It was the act of mixing and measuring and drinking the med again that triggered the learned anxiety. Making such a tiny cut helped me figure out what was learned and what was w/d so I could know how to proceed.

 

It's a tough place to be, trying to recover from a taper-gone-wrong. Learned anxiety is real and needs to be coped with along with the w/d symptoms. I've worked hard at developing coping skills using CBT, DBT, and mindfulness, mostly on my own, and have found them to be useful tools. It was/is long, slow work, but it is paying off.

 

Eventually what works for everybody is getting off the drug, and you will do it. We all will do it, just a lot slower than we thought!

 

Gard

[[Pl...]]

 

 

I've noticed when it comes to dose corrections and/or doing long holds Valium seems to be more forgiving and doable in achieving that as opposed to kolonopin in reaching some form of stability...I ve seen this over and over again....something about this k just doesn't seem to act as well in that regard

 

1) In your experience on this forum have you noticed the same thing?

 

Valium is almost certainly the easiest benzo to taper/withdraw from (NOTE: That does not necessarily mean everyone should cross to V) Because of its low half-life and relatively low potency, V is kinda "self-tapering".  That's why Ashton recommended crossing to V for a taper.  Comparatively, K is higher potency, and has a shorter (but not "short") half life.

 

2) if your cns has already become very "sensitized" and you are doing this a second time with overlapping sxs from the first rapid taper do you think its possible to reach a form of stabilization?

Isn't it harder to come back down? ( well, I guess it would be easier to come down from a point of stability then not; but just asking)

 

Personally, I updosed numerous times, and did several holds,  during the whole span of my taper (starting with C&H and then DLMT).  I have never noticed starting and stopping, updosing, holding, etc. ever made future taper progress any more difficult.  Folks here on BB often get upset when I suggest that their sxs could be" placebo effect", but it seems almost a certainty that if you have already had a difficult experience, you are going to feel more anxiety about trying again.  And that will almost certainly make it more difficult.

 

I know these questions are very subjective but anectodally, I wonder if you have had any observations if anything on this...

 

Thank you

 

thanks for answering that, builder....do you know anything about Librium as compared to tapering Valium?

 

Gard, I believe that's what your tapering? can you function on it as in not too sedating? Easy to taper?

 

I am not stable enough to taper from kolonopin but I cannot handle the strength...I am holding....

I couldn't handle any more changes now to cns just curious.... K is not the drug for me.....Superbad its effects on me....but can't reduce....

 

Thank you both....

 

Please, I think builder meant long half life for V.

 

Librium is very similar to Valium except that it's a nuisance to taper because it only comes in capsules in this country and because there is convincing evidence that it is not stable as a liquid. I have to mix my dose and pull and pitch every night. L has the same active metabolites as V and similar side effects. At 30mg/day, I can function enough to take care of myself most days.

 

I was half-crossed for awhile during my taper. I reduced a tiny bit of X and added a tiny bit of L, again and again until I felt I was balanced well. Then I resumed my X taper. I was lucky I had a doctor who was willing to do this. (Sadly, he moved out of the area and I had to finish my crossover.)

 

I echo builder's idea that some symptoms could be anxiety caused by association. I call it "learned anxiety." I know I have this. I had such a horrible, long crash from tapering X that my brain associates the meds and the tapering with danger and becomes anxious.

 

When I started my taper up again, I did it so slowly I knew the w/d was not causing the symptoms. The cut was way too small. It was the act of mixing and measuring and drinking the med again that triggered the learned anxiety. Making such a tiny cut helped me figure out what was learned and what was w/d so I could know how to proceed.

 

It's a tough place to be, trying to recover from a taper-gone-wrong. Learned anxiety is real and needs to be coped with along with the w/d symptoms. I've worked hard at developing coping skills using CBT, DBT, and mindfulness, mostly on my own, and have found them to be useful tools. It was/is long, slow work, but it is paying off.

 

Eventually what works for everybody is getting off the drug, and you will do it. We all will do it, just a lot slower than we thought!

 

Gard

Thank you for your reply....I agree with everything you said..... There's like a trauma attached to taking the med... W/d and reinstating from tapering wrong and all the other issues... Being terrified of your sxs etc;

[[...]]

Hey Jeff,

 

Thanks, I know I'll find my path eventually. I have no idea how long it will take but by doing a sxs based taper I'm hoping that I'll stay at least somewhat functional. In the long run it doesn't matter how long it takes all that matters it getting off of it. Out of curiosity how long has it take you to get from 6mg to 1mg? I'm sorry going slowly didn't help reduce your sxs. I've seen some who say it does and some who say it doesn't. It would be interesting, just cause I like science and math, to know what the percentage is in both directions.

 

Hugs and healing to you 

 

 

[[...]]

tntd, Genetic testing can reveal the levels of your liver enzymes. Certain enzymes metabolize certain drugs. If you have high levels, you are fast metabolizer of those drugs.

 

That is a very simplistic explanation, but as much as I understand.

 

So I gotta ask...you get a test done and find out that you have some "abnormality",  that may or may not effect how you respond to a med.  Now what?

 

If in fact your metabolism is slower or faster than some else's,  what are you going to do differently?  If you are for example, metabolize your benzo more quickly than normal, that was true before you started to taper. So if there was no problem before you atarted to taper, why should it be a problem during your taper? As I understand, a fast metabolizer would be like taking a lower dose each day.  So if Judy was taking 10mg/day, and Jane was taking 8mg/day, are they supposed to do their tapers differently?

 

Regardless of your metabolism, a symptom-based taper will tell you how to proceed.

 

JMHO

 

Agreed, but with some caveats.

 

I decided to cross to L rather than V because the printout from the lab told my doctor to "consider an alternative therapy" rather than prescribe V because I had inherited the same fast-processor allele of the gene for that enzyme from each parent so am a super-fast processor. (More typical to get one of the alleles and just be a fast processor.)

 

I also found I completely lack an enzyme that is used by the liver to process many meds and can easily overdose on them. In fact, before I knew this, I almost died from a normal dose of one med. Turns out I inherited the same completely non-functioning allele from each of my parents for that enzyme. Just weird.

 

Genetic testing to reveal liver enzyme profiles is becoming more common because there can be really serious consequences in some cases. In other cases it may only be a minor effect. For example, you might have to dose the med more often to avoid inter-dose w/d if you are a fast metabolizer of it.

 

Gard

 

The reason I'm interested in this is that I took a med a few years ago and had a side effect my dr at the time had never heard of another dr recently told me that she didn't think I had the enzyme to metabolize it and that is what caused my sxs. If I had taken it orally or through an IV it could well have killed me. Also my chiropractor was talking about the need to be tested to make sure we have certain enzymes before we have surgery as certain medications they use in anasthesia can kill you if you don't have the enzymes to metabolize it. So it was more from that point of view that I was looking at it, and curiosity becaue it wouldn't change anything I'm doing but it might explain why I'm struggling even with really small reductions.

[[...]]

 

 

I've noticed when it comes to dose corrections and/or doing long holds Valium seems to be more forgiving and doable in achieving that as opposed to kolonopin in reaching some form of stability...I ve seen this over and over again....something about this k just doesn't seem to act as well in that regard

 

1) In your experience on this forum have you noticed the same thing?

 

Valium is almost certainly the easiest benzo to taper/withdraw from (NOTE: That does not necessarily mean everyone should cross to V) Because of its low half-life and relatively low potency, V is kinda "self-tapering".  That's why Ashton recommended crossing to V for a taper.  Comparatively, K is higher potency, and has a shorter (but not "short") half life.

 

2) if your cns has already become very "sensitized" and you are doing this a second time with overlapping sxs from the first rapid taper do you think its possible to reach a form of stabilization?

Isn't it harder to come back down? ( well, I guess it would be easier to come down from a point of stability then not; but just asking)

 

Personally, I updosed numerous times, and did several holds,  during the whole span of my taper (starting with C&H and then DLMT).  I have never noticed starting and stopping, updosing, holding, etc. ever made future taper progress any more difficult.  Folks here on BB often get upset when I suggest that their sxs could be" placebo effect", but it seems almost a certainty that if you have already had a difficult experience, you are going to feel more anxiety about trying again.  And that will almost certainly make it more difficult.

 

I know these questions are very subjective but anectodally, I wonder if you have had any observations if anything on this...

 

Thank you

 

I noticed this happen when I tried a cut and hold. I was so anxious about what would happen that some of my sxs started ramping up the day before. I didn't think of it as placebo though I thought of it more as stress causing my sxs to increase. Placebo reaction is very possible though. How do you know if it's placebo or w/d sxs in the normal course of events? Thanks for your thoughts on this, it's a very interesting topic.

[[bu...]]

For clarification, "placebo effect" basically means the results you get will be the results you expect.  Placebo effect has a general application that goes beyond just medications.

 

Any doctor will tell you that a positive outlook will usually help you to recover from almost any condition.

[[bu...]]

 

Please, I think builder meant long half life for V.

 

Librium is very similar to Valium except that it's a nuisance to taper because it only comes in capsules in this country and because there is convincing evidence that it is not stable as a liquid. I have to mix my dose and pull and pitch every night. L has the same active metabolites as V and similar side effects. At 30mg/day, I can function enough to take care of myself most days.

 

 

I echo builder's idea that some symptoms could be anxiety caused by association. I call it "learned anxiety." I know I have this. I had such a horrible, long crash from tapering X that my brain associates the meds and the tapering with danger and becomes anxious.

 

 

Eventually what works for everybody is getting off the drug, and you will do it. We all will do it, just a lot slower than we thought!

 

Gard

  Yes, long half-life is exactly what I meant.  I corrected it in my original post.

 

I'm glad you responded to the librium question, as that is an area I have little knowledge of.

[[Ul...]]

Hey Jeff,

 

Thanks, I know I'll find my path eventually. I have no idea how long it will take but by doing a sxs based taper I'm hoping that I'll stay at least somewhat functional. In the long run it doesn't matter how long it takes all that matters it getting off of it. Out of curiosity how long has it take you to get from 6mg to 1mg? I'm sorry going slowly didn't help reduce your sxs. I've seen some who say it does and some who say it doesn't. It would be interesting, just cause I like science and math, to know what the percentage is in both directions.

 

Hugs and healing to you 

 

Well, like a fool, I tried a dry cut taper when I began all of this. I had no clue about how bad benzos were, how addictive, I didn't know about micro tapering, etc. I literally tried to cut the 1mg tablets into quarters and reduce from there. Learned real quickly that that ain't happenin'!! I was a complete mess and totally freaked out and ready to run for the hills (little did I know how super sensitive I was to everything). I then learned about BB's and took some really small steps toward the liquid micro taper thing. I've been doing the liquid micro taper for about 1 yr and 7 months. I probably spent a couple months before that fighting with the dry cuts on my own. I also had several long holds over the past year+ due to another surgery on my back, recovery, hurricane evacuation, and now I have holds simply because I'm too sensitive to cut very often or very much. I'm no speed demon, but I've learned to let go and just go with the flow. I don't set taper goals and I don't look back to see how much I cut in a given month, or whatever. So it is. On to the next day!!

 

Hugs to ya, young lady

 

Jeff

[[...]]

Hi Jeff,

 

Sounds like you had a rough start to things and then life happens. I can't imagine having to evacuate my house. I'm glad you survived all your adventures!!

 

I really like your attitude. Just look forward and not worry about goals or look back to see how much you've cut. I think it's a good way to go at it. I think I'll follow your lead 

 

Thanks for calling me young lady  makes me feel good!!

 

Hugs and healing to you too.

[[...]]

Hi There

 

I have been doing really really well almost symptom free for 18 months daily microtapering my Valium down to .33mg. A week ago I went to Paris to meet my husband who was working there and then we drove from there down to the French Alps to ski for a few days. I felt a bit anxious about the skiing, but went ahead and did a few runs the first day. The 2nd day I wasn't feeling it so we went on a snowy woodland hike that ended up taking 4 hours round trip, with a brief stop for a drink halfway. It was about -6 but was well wrapped up so didn't feel the cold. I have not really done much exercise in the previous 18 months due to full time work and children commitments.  So, the next morning after the walk I woke up to the horrible old feelings of adrenaline rushes, anxiety, nausea, fear everything I had not missed.  Truly a 10 on the severity scale, back to my bed 

 

Is this just a reaction to all the heavy exercise? Should I just stay put on .33mg and wait it out. I am very scared to be feeling this bad when I had not had this happen for months and months. Any help/support gratefully received.

 

Thanks for listening.

[[...]]

Hi There

 

I have been doing really really well almost symptom free for 18 months daily microtapering my Valium down to .33mg. A week ago I went to Paris to meet my husband who was working there and then we drove from there down to the French Alps to ski for a few days. I felt a bit anxious about the skiing, but went ahead and did a few runs the first day. The 2nd day I wasn't feeling it so we went on a snowy woodland hike that ended up taking 4 hours round trip, with a brief stop for a drink halfway. It was about -6 but was well wrapped up so didn't feel the cold. I have not really done much exercise in the previous 18 months due to full time work and children commitments.  So, the next morning after the walk I woke up to the horrible old feelings of adrenaline rushes, anxiety, nausea, fear everything I had not missed.  Truly a 10 on the severity scale, back to my bed 

 

Is this just a reaction to all the heavy exercise? Should I just stay put on .33mg and wait it out. I am very scared to be feeling this bad when I had not had this happen for months and months. Any help/support gratefully received.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

It sounds like this is a blip.  Holding or even updosing is what I would do.  You are almost there.

[[...]]

Thanks SG for responding 

 

If I updose a bit where would you suggest to? I am currently .33mg taken once day at night?

 

 

[[...]]

Thanks SG for responding 

 

If I updose a bit where would you suggest to? I am currently .33mg taken once day at night?

 

IDK, it is hard to say. Going back to the last dose you felt good at and holding is a popular strategy. I wonder though if holding will do the trick, since you have otherwise felt good. I guess it depends on how badly you feel.

[[ga...]]

Good to see you, SG.

 

And ditto to what SG said. 

 

Gard

[[...]]

Thank you Gard and SG

 

I am a 11 on a scale 1-10, but I will go back to say .40 maybe for a couple of days and see if that helps at all.

 

I will keep you posted, thank you all for being here.

[Guest [ba...]]

You said that you stopped for a drink (during the hike).  Could that have caused it?  I couldn't drink alcohol until I had recovered from the withdrawal.  Even a single drink would mess me up for a couple of days.

[[...]]

Hi

 

No, it was a de-caff coffee. I haven't touched alcohol in many many years.

[Guest [ba...]]

Sorry - I usually equate a 'drink' with alcohol.  Maybe you just overdid your activity level a bit??  I used to do that (over-exert) if/when I had a good day. 

 

Personally, I'd try to limit your up-dosing. 

[[Ki...]]

Sounds like all that excitement really excited your CNS- hopefully you will quickly get stable and after a bit of a hold can resume a nice easy taper to the finish. I wish you luck!