Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[jr...]]

Gard, the way I understand it is that acute is the period from your last benzo until the sxs are gone.

[[ga...]]

Gard, the way I understand it is that acute is the period from your last benzo until the sxs are gone.

 

Thanks. So how is your acute going? Did you get worse after you jumped?

I'm finding it hard to understand why my daily MT at 10% is so painful and I can't imagine tolerating it getting worse!

[[bu...]]

In medicine and health care, "acute" actually describes a condition with quick onset or short duration.  (as opposed to "chronic")  Unfortunately, folks tend to see the term in the non-medical sense as difficult, severe, etc.

 

If the "acute phase" is the period following your last dose, it does NOT have to mean there is going to be a surge in your sxs.

[[...]]

Howdy Jeff,

 

Thanks so much for your thoughtful response. You always make me feel like I can do this. I have daily symptoms too though I'm not on a high dose and have only been on the meds for a little over a year. Of course I was on them previously and CT'd from them with no problems the first time. I had no idea that this world of withdrawal even existed. So I'm sure I kindled and ended up in tolerance pretty quickly due to my previous use. I really get the months and months of tapering ahead of you as that is where I seem to be as well. I will find my path though and as you said I'm sure it will change and probably repeatedly. I had a moderator on SA tell me that this is pretty normal. She was pretty amazing. I've been struggling with the acceptance part. Some days I do really well and other days it's really hard. You're right though postivie thoughts and self care do take us a long way. I'm also lucky to have a very caring and supportive husband who does all the shopping right now because I'm housebound. He also cooks, and well. I really appreciate all your kind words and encouragement as I try to find my path. I'm almost over my cold so I will be starting the journey shortly. I have to admit I am a little nervous, but the only way out of this is through it so I must go forward!!

 

Hugs

[[ga...]]

In medicine and health care, "acute" actually describes a condition with quick onset or short duration.  (as opposed to "chronic")  Unfortunately, folks tend to see the term in the non-medical sense as difficult, severe, etc.

 

If the "acute phase" is the period following your last dose, it does NOT have to mean there is going to be a surge in your sxs.

 

Yes, I have medical people in the family so I know what they mean by acute. I just wonder why we call it that here. Colloquial use and responding to jumping too hard? If we are tapering slowly, I would think there wouldn't be much change as we step off. At least I would hope not.

[[jr...]]

Gard, the way I understand it is that acute is the period from your last benzo until the sxs are gone.

 

Thanks. So how is your acute going? Did you get worse after you jumped?

I'm finding it hard to understand why my daily MT at 10% is so painful and I can't imagine tolerating it getting worse!

 

I had 4 days of honeymoon time and on the 5th day things got rough. That lasted 5 days and I worried every day that I would have a protracted withdrawal. But after 5 days they eased off and while I am only about 50% , there is day to day improvement. thanks for asking and I hope you are doing well.

[[ga...]]

Gard, the way I understand it is that acute is the period from your last benzo until the sxs are gone.

 

Thanks. So how is your acute going? Did you get worse after you jumped?

I'm finding it hard to understand why my daily MT at 10% is so painful and I can't imagine tolerating it getting worse!

 

I had 4 days of honeymoon time and on the 5th day things got rough. That lasted 5 days and I worried every day that I would have a protracted withdrawal. But after 5 days they eased off and while I am only about 50% , there is day to day improvement. thanks for asking and I hope you are doing well.

 

Gosh, that sounds like you had quite a scare! I'm glad things are going better for you now. That's very encouraging. Just think, in no time you will be writing your success story!

I'm pushing ahead with troubling symptoms for now. (The sharp muscle pain is a new one and the agoraphobia is creeping back in. ) I'm nowhere near as bad when I had my Xanax crash, though. Of course, I don't ever want to be anywhere near that again. Too scary! I'll hold or slow way before that happens!

[[jr...]]

Gard, the way I understand it is that acute is the period from your last benzo until the sxs are gone.

 

Thanks. So how is your acute going? Did you get worse after you jumped?

I'm finding it hard to understand why my daily MT at 10% is so painful and I can't imagine tolerating it getting worse!

 

I had 4 days of honeymoon time and on the 5th day things got rough. That lasted 5 days and I worried every day that I would have a protracted withdrawal. But after 5 days they eased off and while I am only about 50% , there is day to day improvement. thanks for asking and I hope you are doing well.

 

Gosh, that sounds like you had quite a scare! I'm glad things are going better for you now. That's very encouraging. Just think, in no time you will be writing your success story!

I'm pushing ahead with troubling symptoms for now. (The sharp muscle pain is a new one and the agoraphobia is creeping back in. ) I'm nowhere near as bad when I had my Xanax crash, though. Of course, I don't ever want to be anywhere near that again. Too scary! I'll hold or slow way before that happens!

 

You know the secret is to go slow, slow, slow. You will do this in time. I found out the hardest part is jumping!!

[[ga...]]

Thanks, jr. I feel a bit of a rush because I'm not sure if my doctor will keep prescribing. And I have tremendous outside stress from my autoimmune illness and family heartbreaks. So it's hard to sort out whether I should slow down or just assume that with this kind of stress, of course the taper will be painful. I think as long as I can sleep and eat, I will keep pressing on. 

[[my...]]

 

 

builder:  I seem to recall that you were on another benzo before your Valium taper..is that true?  Maybe Xanax or Klonopin?  Please forgive if I'm confusing your history with someone else's.

 

Interesting that you're addressing the "acute" definition on two separate threads. Just happened to be browsing the site this evening.  Yes, I think the term is used on BB as a period following the end of one's taper that may entail increased sxs.  Not everyone experiences it, but many do.  It's just a fact...and I guess someone came up with the term "acute" as a way of defining this post taper condition. 

 

In my case, I completed my K taper two weeks ago.  I would say that this period is one of increased sxs as was my last cut before finishing the taper.  Here's my theory:  The cut before my last was so small that the scale wouldn't register my doses - I previously dosed three times a day.  In grams, the doses would have been .002g per dose.  So, instead, I consolidated my daily K dose into one and dropped the other two, taking .006 g in the morning.  I believe my body registered that change as a big cut - so I not only cut 50% (see signature) but went from 3 doses daily to one.  Ouch!!  Ten days later I completed my taper, going from .006g to zero -- by definition a 100% cut as we all do when we jump.  My sxs increased during these past several weeks and are more intense than they had been for the last several months of my taper...and I think it's due to the above reasons.

 

I surely have had days - and hours within days - when I've felt fine.  But, right now for example,  ...I am experiencing my own lovely w/d sxs which are ear pain and pressure alternating with a tension headache that won't quit.  Since the intensity of these sxs is much stronger than in recent months, I WOULD term this period "acute" even though it may be a medical misnomer.

 

I have confidence - shaky at times but still - that my sensitivity will normalize as my CNS recovers its ability to calm itself without K.  Just hoping it will not be too long...  My baseline before Klonopin never included these w/d sxs.  Anxiety, yes...but not all this physical tension and pain.  Two plus years....I'm so DONE with it!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[ga...]]

mana, thanks for explaining how BB uses the term "acute." I always wondered what people meant! It's not exactly how medical people use it. But then we have our own language here, don't we? When I say "hold" I mean stop reducing, but my doctor means stop taking the med entirely. We need to be bilingual to get through this. 

[[my...]]

Yes, Gard!  And yes, we mean hold as in, stay where you are for three weeks or three months, hold.

 

I agree with SG, that holding is really helpful during a taper as it allows one's CNS to get used to operating at the reduced level.  I'm hoping that my post jump status will work like a long hold  (it is kind of the same thing) and that eventually my CNS will get used to operating without Klonopin. 

[[ga...]]

Yes, Gard!  And yes, we mean hold as in, stay where you are for three weeks or three months, hold.

 

I agree with SG, that holding is really helpful during a taper as it allows one's CNS to get used to operating at the reduced level.  I'm hoping that my post jump status will work like a long hold  (it is kind of the same thing) and that eventually my CNS will get used to operating without Klonopin.

 

[[de...]]

SG or anyone else that can please help me !

 

i guess you older members who knew me think i fell off the earth...well i feel like i have..i dont read much of anything anymore and try to stay away from groups so i dont get any worse from reading..

 

I have been in a wheelchair since july 4th..and i have been holding now since last april an i am not stabalizing i need some input..

 

i am up to 115lbs from 97 but its been a long road and i am just so tired..i am weak and have no energy and as for the eyes i dont drive anymore...terrie helps me get a shower and dress and she does everything around here as i am no longer able too.

 

I need your input i go to my doc on thursday and we had agreed that something has to change cause things are just not getting better..and i told him if i could go back to my 4mgs of k that i had been on for 30 something yrs and stabalize and then i would try again even if it took me 10 yrs..

 

my question is cause he listens to my suggestions and what i want to do..being at 2.75mgs now.. you all know i got to 1.75 but then had to updose twice..but now with the long hold i dont see it getting any better..

 

can i go back to 4mgs at one time to try and see if i can pull out of this? or is that something you do slowly also?

and what are the chances that it will back fire on me cause just staying here is not helping and i take no other meds. he doesnt want me to drop any lower cause my body is just shutting down from it.and he wanted me to wait until after the holidays so i at least might not get any worse...and i have had all kinds of tests run and they find nothing. also switching to v is not an option.

 

i will check back tomorrow and also on thursday morning to see if i can get any help from here on what to do..or any suggestions..just please dont tell me to keep holding cause i am just not getting any better and it will be a yr soon..

 

and then how long would most wait before they would start a really small daily micro taper?

 

i crush all my pills and weigh out the powder and put it in broth on a spoon as i cant swallow much anymore and cant swallow tablets.

 

 

thanks in advance for any help

 

 

deep

[Guest [Fu...]]

Getting off of this fucking drug is impossible and I truly don't know how anyone does it. I thought a slow taper would make things bearable but it has turned my life upside down. I'm bedridden, afraid to go outside AND afraid to be inside, I don't eat, I can barely use the computer or watch TV because the light hurts my eyes, I just lay in bed all day listening to podcasts and relaxation tapes while drifting in and out of sleep. I'm very worried that I'm not going to make it through this. I'm switching to an all liquid titration and it's hard for me to be optimistic. This is fucking torture. 24/7 physical, mental and emotional torture. I don't know how anyone makes it to the other side with their sanity intact.

 

Sorry I'm just having an awful day of body aches and dizziness and I feel like although I have no choice I can't take much more of this. It's bad enough that life is passing me by and I'm losing contact with all of my friends and family but I could handle that if I could at least distract myself during the withdrawal process! Without that it's just straight up nonstop torture.

[[my...]]

Hi Deep,

 

I'm really sorry to read that you still are not feeling well at all.

 

No one here can tell you what to do.  That is for sure.  People can suggest things but your situation is unique - as is mine, as is everyone's - and what may work for some won't work for others. 

 

You need to think deeply (!!) about what YOU think is best.  You must somehow dig and dig for your own insights and instinct.  When we feel desperate, we look to others to help us, but in this case, though others will support you, you must look inside yourself and come to some kind of peace with your decision.

 

I wish you the best.

 

If it were me, I wouldn't even think about tapering again - at least not until you feel well and are able to resume normal life.  Tapering is for another time as it takes a lot of strength to do it and even then, it's difficult.

 

 

Fuzzy,

I don't know what to say other than thousands of people HAVE done it....this site is proof.

Good luck to you.

 

As for me....

 

I'm in my third week Klonopin free.  I'm completely functional and have been throughout my taper - although exposure to stress brings on sxs.  And sometimes the sxs come on for no reason other than that my body is trying to heal from what has been a traumatic 2 year experience.  I need to remember that it may take a bit for that to happen.  Complete healing, that is....

 

 

[[ho...]]

Getting off of this fucking drug is impossible and I truly don't know how anyone does it. I thought a slow taper would make things bearable but it has turned my life upside down. I'm bedridden, afraid to go outside AND afraid to be inside, I don't eat, I can barely use the computer or watch TV because the light hurts my eyes, I just lay in bed all day listening to podcasts and relaxation tapes while drifting in and out of sleep. I'm very worried that I'm not going to make it through this. I'm switching to an all liquid titration and it's hard for me to be optimistic. This is fucking torture. 24/7 physical, mental and emotional torture. I don't know how anyone makes it to the other side with their sanity intact.

 

Sorry I'm just having an awful day of body aches and dizziness and I feel like although I have no choice I can't take much more of this. It's bad enough that life is passing me by and I'm losing contact with all of my friends and family but I could handle that if I could at least distract myself during the withdrawal process! Without that it's just straight up nonstop torture.

I just wanted to say I'm in the same boat as you, currently stuck on 2.5 klonopin and 20 mgs valium because I was going to do a crossover and changed my mind. I did a huge cut in October and I have been holding ever since. There was no way I could start a taper as unstable as I was, then had a family tragedy, now I have the flu. I do know I am a lot more stable than I was after my cut. But still miserable. And what is slow for some people isn't for others. I'm starting my milk taper at 2.5%. If I want to increase I will. Just something to think about, holding for a bit. And going slower than before. Life totally sucks for me too, I'm homebound and agoraphobic. But we will get off this poison. Hope you feel better. Nicole

[[ho...]]

Getting off of this fucking drug is impossible and I truly don't know how anyone does it. I thought a slow taper would make things bearable but it has turned my life upside down. I'm bedridden, afraid to go outside AND afraid to be inside, I don't eat, I can barely use the computer or watch TV because the light hurts my eyes, I just lay in bed all day listening to podcasts and relaxation tapes while drifting in and out of sleep. I'm very worried that I'm not going to make it through this. I'm switching to an all liquid titration and it's hard for me to be optimistic. This is fucking torture. 24/7 physical, mental and emotional torture. I don't know how anyone makes it to the other side with their sanity intact.

 

Sorry I'm just having an awful day of body aches and dizziness and I feel like although I have no choice I can't take much more of this. It's bad enough that life is passing me by and I'm losing contact with all of my friends and family but I could handle that if I could at least distract myself during the withdrawal process! Without that it's just straight up nonstop torture.

I just wanted to say I'm in the same boat as you, currently stuck on 2.5 klonopin and 20 mgs valium because I was going to do a crossover and changed my mind. I did a huge cut in October and I have been holding ever since. There was no way I could start a taper as unstable as I was, then had a family tragedy, now I have the flu. I do know I am a lot more stable than I was after my cut. But still miserable. And what is slow for some people isn't for others. I'm starting my milk taper at 2.5%. If I want to increase I will. Just something to think about, holding for a bit. And going slower than before. Life totally sucks for me too, I'm homebound and agoraphobic. But we will get off this poison. Hope you feel better. Nicole

also I dose three times a day seven hours apart. It helped me when I was just dosing once. Nicole

[Guest [Fu...]]

Thanks Nicole. I updosed from 1.5 to 2.0 in October and have been holding ever since and it hasn't helped me at all. I wish I had gone slower at the start of my taper but everyone said 10% would be okay only to find out months later that it all caught up with me and I still haven't really recovered. I spent all day today just hyperventilating and basically in the fetal position. I don't know how people do this. I hope it gets at least a bit more tolerable soon.

[[ga...]]

Hope, I was a very long time on 2 different meds because I started a crossover and then felt like I had crossed far enough. I was half on Xanax and half on Librium (a slower benzo). The Librium helped even my blood levels and enabled me to continue to taper the Xanax. I didn't have to go to all Librium, which is a more depressing drug, until I was much lower. So being half crossed over was a good thing for me. My doctor allowed it, which was another good thing. 

 

I also got into a bad place from trying to taper my Librium too fast, and at the same time having a family crisis. I decided to hold to get stable. I held for over 6 months. Check out the Long Hold support group. There are lots of people who have gotten into truly bad places and then got out by holding. Then they were able to taper again with much more tolerable symptoms. That's where I am now. I was housebound and agoraphobic bit now can get out some days. There is hope!

 

Gard

[[ho...]]

Thanks Nicole. I updosed from 1.5 to 2.0 in October and have been holding ever since and it hasn't helped me at all. I wish I had gone slower at the start of my taper but everyone said 10% would be okay only to find out months later that it all caught up with me and I still haven't really recovered. I spent all day today just hyperventilating and basically in the fetal position. I don't know how people do this. I hope it gets at least a bit more tolerable soon.

I ask myself everyday how people do this. But have read from experienced members that it is possible to get through this without going through hell, you just have to go slow. Everything you mention I experience. I even wear sunglasses to watch TV sometimes because my eyes kill me. I also hyperventilate when I lay flat. I have to prop myself up. I have spoke to many people who have had to hold because of making too big of cuts. I do child's pose (yoga) in bed for anxiety. Now you know, as I do, what not to do. You will get more stable your brain just has to catch up. I would send you a picture of child's pose but I don't know how to do it. It doesn't require any strenuous movement or I couldn't do it. Breathe from your belly if possible. And the hyperventilating thing weird I know but I get it when I lay flat so maybe prop up. You're going to stabilize more. Keep your blood levels even by dosing as much as you need to. Like I said I dose three times approx seven hours apart. I hope you feel better, you will. Write me anytime. Nicole

[[ho...]]

Hope, I was a very long time on 2 different meds because I started a crossover and then felt like I had crossed far enough. I was half on Xanax and half on Librium (a slower benzo). The Librium helped even my blood levels and enabled me to continue to taper the Xanax. I didn't have to go to all Librium, which is a more depressing drug, until I was much lower. So being half crossed over was a good thing for me. My doctor allowed it, which was another good thing. 

 

I also got into a bad place from trying to taper my Librium too fast, and at the same time having a family crisis. I decided to hold to get stable. I held for over 6 months. Check out the Long Hold support group. There are lots of people who have gotten into truly bad places and then got out by holding. Then they were able to taper again with much more tolerable symptoms. That's where I am now. I was housebound and agoraphobic bit now can get out some days. There is hope!

 

Gard

hi gard thank you for writing. I've been feeling very bad about doing my partial crossover and being on two benzos. I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one. Not glad you're in this situation of course but don't feel so alone. Yes I have had to hold, there is no way after my massive cut I could go into a taper. I've visited the long hold group many times and it's very positive. At least now we know what NOT to do. And it's given me time to ask more questions and get a better plan. I'm glad you're getting out. I feel like I'm in a prison sentence. I had no idea the power of this poison. Thank you for giving me some hope! Nicole

[[ga...]]

Hope, I was a very long time on 2 different meds because I started a crossover and then felt like I had crossed far enough. I was half on Xanax and half on Librium (a slower benzo). The Librium helped even my blood levels and enabled me to continue to taper the Xanax. I didn't have to go to all Librium, which is a more depressing drug, until I was much lower. So being half crossed over was a good thing for me. My doctor allowed it, which was another good thing. 

 

I also got into a bad place from trying to taper my Librium too fast, and at the same time having a family crisis. I decided to hold to get stable. I held for over 6 months. Check out the Long Hold support group. There are lots of people who have gotten into truly bad places and then got out by holding. Then they were able to taper again with much more tolerable symptoms. That's where I am now. I was housebound and agoraphobic bit now can get out some days. There is hope!

 

Gard

hi gard thank you for writing. I've been feeling very bad about doing my partial crossover and being on two benzos. I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one. Not glad you're in this situation of course but don't feel so alone. Yes I have had to hold, there is no way after my massive cut I could go into a taper. I've visited the long hold group many times and it's very positive. At least now we know what NOT to do. And it's given me time to ask more questions and get a better plan. I'm glad you're getting out. I feel like I'm in a prison sentence. I had no idea the power of this poison. Thank you for giving me some hope! Nicole

 

Hope, I feel like I am in prison, too. I'll bet most of us do. During my long hold it was especially bad. Even now, the slowness of my taper and having to incorporate holds makes me feel like I will never get out. This is a very common feeling, but it's a feeling, not a fact. You will get out. Also, when I was in my many months of being on 2 different benzos, I looked around and found there were a few others who had done the same thing. It's unusual mostly because doctors generally aren't willing to stick their necks out like that. I think it could actually be better than crossing all the way over in many cases. It could be what works for you to get you off the K. I think holding and listening to your body and then starting up again slowly with holds as needed will get you off this stuff. We will all get off this stuff.

 

BTW, I am going to be starting trauma therapy soon, so I think I will be in another long hold. Phooey! Have you posted on Long Hold? Sorry if I don't remember. I usually remember people by their avatar, but my memory is not so good! My brain's function-ability blinks off and on. 

 

Gard

[[...]]

Hi guys,

 

I'm in tears reading your posts today. :'( I didn't realize others also felt they were in prison with this poison.  I'm also struggling with anxiety and agoraphobia and am housebound, even when I'm not cutting, and holding doesn't change anything. I held for over five months before I started tapering and my sxs just kept getting worse.

 

I had been doing a daily micro taper at 4% of my dose. Ten days in I was in horrible withdrawal and had to hold. I held for five days and recovered to my baseline very quickly. Then I tried various other types of patterns and kept getting into trouble no matter the pattern. So then I just held. I held for a month. Yesterday I cut 2.5% of my dose which is .03mg and today I'm already a mess. I think I prefer the ability to do a pattern than this cut and hold, so far anyway. I guess I'll have to see how long I stay in w/d.

 

I'm already ready to start working on how I'm going to try to make a pattern or maybe just cut with smaller cuts. I was cutting daily at .0019mg. Maybe I should make it .001mg and try a daily pattern again. It's all just so frustrating. I'm going to be doing this for years at this rate. If I didn't have the agoraphobia it wouldn't bother me quite as much though none of the w/d sxs are any fun.

 

Hey Gard, my pdoc just told me on Wednesday that he has read that therapy doesn't work when you are on a benzo. I don't know if that is all types of therapy or not but I thought I would pass that along. I also think I read Dr. Ashton said the same thing. It has to do with the cognitive function if I remember right.

 

Have any of you checked out the excessivly long hold thread?

 

Hugs and healing and thanks for helping not feel so alone as I go through this long drawn out experience. 

[[ho...]]

Hope, I was a very long time on 2 different meds because I started a crossover and then felt like I had crossed far enough. I was half on Xanax and half on Librium (a slower benzo). The Librium helped even my blood levels and enabled me to continue to taper the Xanax. I didn't have to go to all Librium, which is a more depressing drug, until I was much lower. So being half crossed over was a good thing for me. My doctor allowed it, which was another good thing. 

 

I also got into a bad place from trying to taper my Librium too fast, and at the same time having a family crisis. I decided to hold to get stable. I held for over 6 months. Check out the Long Hold support group. There are lots of people who have gotten into truly bad places and then got out by holding. Then they were able to taper again with much more tolerable symptoms. That's where I am now. I was housebound and agoraphobic bit now can get out some days. There is hope!

 

Gard

hi gard thank you for writing. I've been feeling very bad about doing my partial crossover and being on two benzos. I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one. Not glad you're in this situation of course but don't feel so alone. Yes I have had to hold, there is no way after my massive cut I could go into a taper. I've visited the long hold group many times and it's very positive. At least now we know what NOT to do. And it's given me time to ask more questions and get a better plan. I'm glad you're getting out. I feel like I'm in a prison sentence. I had no idea the power of this poison. Thank you for giving me some hope! Nicole

 

Hope, I feel like I am in prison, too. I'll bet most of us do. During my long hold it was especially bad. Even now, the slowness of my taper and having to incorporate holds makes me feel like I will never get out. This is a very common feeling, but it's a feeling, not a fact. You will get out. Also, when I was in my many months of being on 2 different benzos, I looked around and found there were a few others who had done the same thing. It's unusual mostly because doctors generally aren't willing to stick their necks out like that. I think it could actually be better than crossing all the way over in many cases. It could be what works for you to get you off the K. I think holding and listening to your body and then starting up again slowly with holds as needed will get you off this stuff. We will all get off this stuff.

 

BTW, I am going to be starting trauma therapy soon, so I think I will be in another long hold. Phooey! Have you posted on Long Hold? Sorry if I don't remember. I usually remember people by their avatar, but my memory is not so good! My brain's function-ability blinks off and on. 

 

Gard

I'm glad to know others are on two benzos, I've been feeling bad about that. Yes we all will get better! It's just having the patience to do so. I don't remember if I've posted in long hold but I've read through it many times because I felt guilt for holding. Let me know when you start the trauma group! Nicole