Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[ed...]]

Always good to have an advocate. My wife attends visits with me as well.

[[pe...]]

Could My Mana put the calibrating weight on the scale and then add the bit of pill? Then subtract the weight of the weight to get the pill weight, if that makes any sense. Would that make the scale work better?

 

Gard

 

That won't make any difference (sorry).  The accuracy of those little scales is just not high enough.  0.003 grams +/- 0.003 grams is the same as 10.003 grams minus 10 grams +/- 0.003 grams.  Is that 0.003 gram inaccuracy that limits these scales.  They're great little scales for the money, but they have their limits.

 

so whats the answer, i find them really bad. I get so many different readings and my pills weigh 0.111 so that 0.003 can be 3% ..also this bath of pills are so wide of the mark ...some 10% difference. So i don't know what to do, i feel to overwhelmed to do liquid unless its made up and i don't have to think about it as i have got serious OCD. Anyway its all so much...

 

[[...]]

I was able to get the withdrawal chart from my pdoc. I find it interesting that the Prolonged withdrawal section only shows it lasting for 12 months.

 

http://i565.photobucket.com/albums/ss92/master87_bucket/Benzo%20withdrawal%20chart.jpeg

 

I'm curious, is anyone doing a daily micro taper? If you are what is the amount you are tapering by daily. I was doing .0019mg a day which was equal to about 4% in a month. I didn't last for more than 10 days. Now my pdoc wants me to try to cut and hold starting at 2.5% of my dose and holding for a month. Still seems like a micro cut, .03mg, except now it's not daily it's once a month.  Any thoughts?

 

Thanks and Happy New Year to everyone 

[[bu...]]

 

so whats the answer, i find them really bad. I get so many different readings and my pills weigh 0.111 so that 0.003 can be 3% ..also this bath of pills are so wide of the mark ...some 10% difference. So i don't know what to do, i feel to overwhelmed to do liquid unless its made up and i don't have to think about it as i have got serious OCD. Anyway its all so much...

blet,

 

Yes, the weight (and potency) or your tablets can easily vary as much as +/- 10%, but when you dissolve that tablet, 100% of whatever med was actually in that tablet will now be in the liquid.

 

But that +/- 10% was there from the beginning, not just since you started to taper.  So why is 3% a big deal?

 

But I agree...if you have access to  Rx liquid, that is clearly the best alternative.  It will be uniform and consistent, and virtually zero dose-to-dose variation.  The uniformity of Rx liquid is far superior to Rx tablets.

[[pe...]]

Im dry cutting thats why it matters ...if the scales are off so much then the weight of the pills ae so different its all a mess.

[Guest [ba...]]

Im dry cutting thats why it matters ...if the scales are off so much then the weight of the pills ae so different its all a mess.

 

Pill weights and doses vary.  That's just a fact of life.  5% is considered acceptable, and variations of up to 10% have been reported in the literature.  The variations that you see in your pills and scale weights are no greater than the variations that you were always experiencing (even before you began your taper).  I'd suggest that you try to ignore these variations.  It's more likely to cause anxiety from your concern versus from the actual variation.

[[Ma...]]

I am having anxiety about this dry cutting.  So is it inaccurate to shave off 2 mg from a 10 mg?. Using a Gemini scale.?  I'm thinking of going totally liquid but this how I've done it.  Just liquefy ing 1/2 of a 2 mg. And tapering that, dry cutting rest.  This discussion makes me question the accuracy of this method. I changed drugs from temazapam to valium.

 

Is there a more accurate scale out there

[[Va...]]

I am having anxiety about this dry cutting.  So is it inaccurate to shave off 2 mg from a 10 mg?. Using a Gemini scale.?  I'm thinking of going totally liquid but this how I've done it.  Just liquefy ing 1/2 of a 2 mg. And tapering that, dry cutting rest.  This discussion makes me question the accuracy of this method. I changed drugs from temazapam to valium.

 

Is there a more accurate scale out there

Are you using liquid and dry cutting? I just use whole dry pills and liquid without dry cutting the pills.  --V

[[Ma...]]

Val,

 

Explain how you are doing that? Using all 2mg?  What ifbits an odd no or fraction?

[[bu...]]

If you're doing liquid, there is no need to cut/shave/weigh, etc.  You dissolve a whole pill, then just reduce the amount of liquid each day.

 

[[Ma...]]

I've been battling nausea and is it true all liquid can make that worse. 

[[bu...]]

[

 

Pill weights and doses vary.  That's just a fact of life.  5% is considered acceptable, and variations of up to 10% have been reported in the literature.  The variations that you see in your pills and scale weights are no greater than the variations that you were always experiencing (even before you began your taper).  I'd suggest that you try to ignore these variations.  It's more likely to cause anxiety from your concern versus from the actual variation.

 

Correct!  The variation in weights and actual med content has been there ever since you started taking benzo.  This is not just something that has begun since you started tapering.  If your pill weight varies +/- 5% now, then your dose has always varied +/- 5%

[[bu...]]

I've been battling nausea and is it true all liquid can make that worse.

 

Do you only have 10mg tablets?

[[Va...]]

Val,

 

Explain how you are doing that? Using all 2mg?  What ifbits an odd no or fraction?

I dissolve 5 2mg pills in 20ml of PG and 80ml water. I use the dry pills for the majority of my dose and use the liquid for the cuts and for any odd numbers or fractions. Right now cutting .025ml a day for example would look like this:

Morning dose - 4mg dry .25 liquid

Evening dose - 4 mg dry .35 liquid for a total of 8.6mg (currently cutting evening dose).  --V

[Guest [ba...]]

I am having anxiety about this dry cutting.  So is it inaccurate to shave off 2 mg from a 10 mg?. Using a Gemini scale.?  I'm thinking of going totally liquid but this how I've done it.  Just liquefy ing 1/2 of a 2 mg. And tapering that, dry cutting rest.  This discussion makes me question the accuracy of this method. I changed drugs from temazapam to valium.

 

Is there a more accurate scale out there

 

If the inaccuracy of the Gemini balances causes you anxiety, there's always the Mettler Toledo XPR2U Microbalance.  It's readable to 0.1 microgram, so 10,000 times more accurate than that little Gem-20.  However, the $40,000 (US) price tag may give you pause (and you'd likely need to build a 'cleanroom' that would make the balance look cheap).

 

I'm not trying to be cruel.  Pill weights vary.  That's simply a fact of life.  So your taper will vary a little.  Doesn't matter if you use dry or liquid method, variation happens.  Accept this and relax about this.  Everything varies a little.  Air pressure varies from day to day so even the amount of oxygen you get per breath varies.  Please don't fret over things that cannot be changed.  Think Serenity Prayer.

[[bu...]]

 

These variations weights and potency have been part of the whole benzo experience from the beginning, and never seem to be an issue for anyone, until they decide to taper.

But once folks start to taper, they seem to get obsessed with accuracy and precision.  But it really is NOT very important.  If you are 1) consistently 2) reducing your dose 3) in small decrements, 4) over a given time frame, you will be fine.

 

Consistency is MUCH more important than accuracy.

[[wa...]]

Dear Builder, SG57, Sharkey1911 or Badsocref and or anyone else who can contribute:

 

Writing to request some feedback.  What I am realizing is that since I switched to liquid and dosing three times a day I am extremely sleepy all day long which I find quite interesting. I am thinking I may have to try dosing twice a day versus three times and see if that helps.  I am not sure I would experience interdose withdrawal or not given I have been dosing three times a day since I started.  Not sure what to do but as soon as I take each dose about an hour later I am ready to go back to bed.  I dose every 7 to 8 hours. Not that I would actually sleep well given my mind has racing thoughts but the lethargy, fatigue and exhaustion is tough to handle all day.  And with working it makes it even more rough given I have to be on top of my game.  Any thoughts on this? I would appreciate any feedback you have to offer. 

[[...]]

Magnolis- yes there are more accurate scales out there. Yes, they will cost you more But not necessarily $40,000. Sartorius scales are accurate. To 0.0001 g. The last digit on a scale is not so accurate. May cost about $1000.  You don't need to build a special room- any room with any air flow will do bc this scale is covered on all sides. Anyway, maybe not necessary to have this accuracy but if accuracy is causing anxiety and you can afford it, then this is an easy way to eliminate this source of anxiety.

 

But I agree that the pulls vary 5% and occasionally up to 10% in weight- which means the amt of active ingredient is varying this much. This is accepted by the FDA. Generics vary more than brand name. I take a generic. Stick with the same generic for your taper.

 

Right now I take a 10 mg capsule of Librium (which must vary a lot- but I don't weigh it) plus I take part of a 5 mg which I weigh out the rest of my dose from. I dump a bunch of them out (it's a powder) and fill empty capsules with a certain wt of powder. How did I figure out what wt of powder I want? Originally I measured the contents of wire a few capsules (maybe 30) and took the average. I use that average as my "gold standard" and I don't reweigh each batch I get. I am doing c/h so I figure slight differences between batches, if any, don't matter and my dose fluctuates anyway bc of the 10 mg portion I take. As long as I'm going down, the exact weight each day doesn't matter.

 

In fact, I wonder when I get to a low point where I'm weighing all my dose- so it isnt really fluctuating anymore.... Will that make me more sensitive and make it harder in a way? I'm not even close yet, but any thoughts on this are appreciated.

[[Ma...]]

Thanks,  my ocd kicked in.  If the $20 scale works for the majority of us,it will have to work for me.

[[ed...]]

Magnolis- yes there are more accurate scales out there. Yes, they will cost you more But not necessarily $40,000. Sartorius scales are accurate. To 0.0001 g. The last digit on a scale is not so accurate. May cost about $1000.  You don't need to build a special room- any room with any air flow will do bc this scale is covered on all sides. Anyway, maybe not necessary to have this accuracy but if accuracy is causing anxiety and you can afford it, then this is an easy way to eliminate this source of anxiety.

 

But I agree that the pulls vary 5% and occasionally up to 10% in weight- which means the amt of active ingredient is varying this much. This is accepted by the FDA. Generics vary more than brand name. I take a generic. Stick with the same generic for your taper.

 

Right now I take a 10 mg capsule of Librium (which must vary a lot- but I don't weigh it) plus I take part of a 5 mg which I weigh out the rest of my dose from. I dump a bunch of them out (it's a powder) and fill empty capsules with a certain wt of powder. How did I figure out what wt of powder I want? Originally I measured the contents of wire a few capsules (maybe 30) and took the average. I use that average as my "gold standard" and I don't reweigh each batch I get. I am doing c/h so I figure slight differences between batches, if any, don't matter and my dose fluctuates anyway bc of the 10 mg portion I take. As long as I'm going down, the exact weight each day doesn't matter.

 

In fact, I wonder when I get to a low point where I'm weighing all my dose- so it isnt really fluctuating anymore.... Will that make me more sensitive and make it harder in a way? I'm not even close yet, but any thoughts on this are appreciated.

 

I switched over to this .0001 scale and it can be had for about $700 now. Love it.

 

https://www.phantomscales.com/buy/tree/hrb224.php

 

I used to use a pair of Gemini scales (2 so I could be assured that 1 scale wasn't malfunctioning), but was having such a nasty time of it that, at one point, decided I needed to remove as many variables as I could. I think most don't run into this problem.  Even today, I use a Gemini scale to weigh my pill powder to the general dose for which I'm shooting.  Then I fine tune the dose on the nicer scale.  I'm happy with my investment.

 

 

Just because you are taking all powder, as I do now, doesn't mean you won't have fluctuations in active ingredient. If fluctuations exist across pills, they'll still exist across a specific weight.  That being said, I'm actually noticing a bit of improvement in how I feel as I move under 1mg of Valium.  Just keep fighting the good fight and you'll get there!

 

Best,

Ed

 

 

 

 

[[Ma...]]

Ed.

 

Now I'm not even 20% in. Less than 9. Well over a year left.  Those gemini scales have different readings all the time. If you get 2 gemini and get 2 readings how do you know which one is right?  Did you see a difference in readings of the 700 scale.  Do you feel that $700 scale would be worth more than peace of mind. Do these variations in a valium taper make a difference?

[[ed...]]

Ed.

 

Now I'm not even 20% in. Less than 9. Well over a year left.  Those gemini scales have different readings all the time. If you get 2 gemini and get 2 readings how do you know which one is right?  Did you see a difference in readings of the 700 scale.  Do you feel that $700 scale would be worth more than peace of mind. Do these variations in a valium taper make a difference?

 

1) I always split the difference when my Gemini scales showed different readings.

 

2) As you know, the Gemini can vary a little depending upon where you place the weigh pan.  I don't see those variations on the "good" scale. 

 

3) My peace of mind was worth the money. I can't say with conviction that it is worth more than that. But, again, I'm happy with my investment.

 

4) For some people, variations are felt. For others, it all evens out.

 

Best,

Ed

[[Ul...]]

I was able to get the withdrawal chart from my pdoc. I find it interesting that the Prolonged withdrawal section only shows it lasting for 12 months.

 

http://i565.photobucket.com/albums/ss92/master87_bucket/Benzo%20withdrawal%20chart.jpeg

 

I'm curious, is anyone doing a daily micro taper? If you are what is the amount you are tapering by daily. I was doing .0019mg a day which was equal to about 4% in a month. I didn't last for more than 10 days. Now my pdoc wants me to try to cut and hold starting at 2.5% of my dose and holding for a month. Still seems like a micro cut, .03mg, except now it's not daily it's once a month.  Any thoughts?

 

Thanks and Happy New Year to everyone 

 

Hey tnt! You asked if anyone is doing a daily micro taper. I'm assuming that you're asking if anyone is doing a dry cut daily micro taper, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm not much help, but I do a liquid daily micro taper, and it's not really even "daily" because I just can't. I try to do a cut (about .005mg) and then hold a couple days or more and then do it again. Not a whole lot of rhyme or reason as to why I do it that way, but that's just what "works" for me. My journey was even pretty brutal from 6mg of K per day down to where I am now. I saw that most people really blow through the numbers when they're at higher doses and then slow down on the lower dose. I didn't have that luxury, but it's just the way things have gone. I've also had more than a few periods of long holds due to surgeries, etc. For me, the long holds stunk. I think it was because I was in tolerance during those times. My tolerance sx are/were every bit as bad as the sx I get when actually cutting. So your doc wants you to do a cut and then hold for a month? That seems like a long hold to me, but heck, if it works for you, then let 'er rip!! What has helped me was doing several minor cuts rather than a cut and a long hold. Cut and hold can be done with liquid just as much as with dry cutting, but I like the control of micro liquid cutting. You'll find your path. One day this will all be a distant memory for you. Make it an awesome 2017!!

 

Jeff

[[...]]

Edzo- my scale looks similar to the one in your picture, just a different brand. I love it. I mean I hate that I have to use it but you understand....

Ok/ makes sense that even when weighing the whole dose, there is still some fluctuation. Thanks.

 

Magnolis- yes, the covered expensive scale is much much more accurate. No fluctuation in weight. No worries about anything really. The investment was totally worth it for me. I'm a numbers person and very sensitive and accuracy was important to me. I never tried any other scale so can't compare. When weighing such small weights, just made sense to have something covered. The weighing part is super fast- I can make my pills really quickly.

I agree, the less variables, the better. But less sensitive people seem ok with any scale or even just splitting pills. And...it's kinda a cool scale. I never tried liquid- again I didn't see a need to introduce new variables. Weighing with my scale is easy and fast. I calibrate once in a while with the weight that came with the scale. Good luck.

[[Ki...]]

Magnolia, I have 2 scales too- one gemini and one accuweigh. They are usually pretty close I just bought another in case one goes on the fritz like my dishwasher just did! My pharmacy switched generics on me but I had some stored away so Im using one whole new pill and a partial old pill. There was a pretty substantial weight difference. I think the basic idea of this minor variation bothering some folks more than others also depends on metabolism- if you metabolize normally you probably wouldnt notice it but I really did. I had to weigh and reweigh since I burn the meds up so fast. Im sure other people will say Im wrong but I know what I feel and now that I slowed down my metabolism a bit it really doesnt matter as much. But all we can do is the best we can with what we are given, and try to remember we are lucky to have the help on here that we do instead of just the MEDICAL PROFESSION😖