Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[jr...]]

Good morning,

This is a note for SG

Thinking of you as I wind this taper down to zero.  Less than two weeks....that's after two plus years tapering from 2 mg K...as you know.

 

The bits on the scale barely register as I dose 3 X a day.  Just "cut" my pills for today and tomorrow then on 12/16 I make my last reduction to .017mg or .006 g. 

 

There is really no way .002g will register even though the scale is supposed to read down to .001g.

 

I'm wondering if I should try and dose once a day beginning Friday...as the scale could easily read .006g?  I could try 2x a day @ .003g each dose but if the scale is iffy at .004 it will be more so @ .003 and I'd rather not mess around with inaccurate cuts....so what to do?

 

Many/some think I should just step off now, but I kind of want to complete my program as planned and finish on 12/26.

 

Can you believe C/H has worked for me all the way down?  Crazy....I'm feeling pretty well most of the time these days.  I've learned patience and how to endure...in a way I never thought possible.

 

I'll come back, of course to express my gratitude for ALL you have done to support and encourage me.

In the mean time, though...any thoughts you might have on the scale/dose reduction (which I know can be experienced as a kind of cut) would be appreciated.

 

Thanks.

 

Mana

 

Hi MM, Glad you have done so well with C&H an are almost done.  It sounds like you're operating within the noise of the scale so it is not capable of giving you an accurate reading.  I'd think the best you could do is to measure it out as well as you can and try to check it by eyeballing the size...or maybe even measuring the pieces with a ruler?  Maybe some of the other scale people will chime in on what they did and how it went at the end.  I'd tend not to change the number of doses and just keep everything the same and do the best you can.

 

I'm the same as always.  A little rough today.  I get a lot of on and off lately - good periods and bad periods within the day.  I just keep plodding and hope for a better future.  It helps to remind myself that this gets easier and easier along the way.

 

The way I weighed on my scale the small amounts was to zero my scale and then place the cup on it and add the weight of my dose to the total. i.e. if the cup weighs .186 and your dose is .004, just add pill until the scale reads .190. My scale would never read below .004 so I had to improvise.

[[my...]]

I thought of that, Gard....but you know...I only have a little more than a week left...so I'm going to follow Bad's advice and weigh out the day's dose (.006 g) and then divide it in three..what a great idea!  Why didn't I think of that before...   Bad, you may not remember, but very early on in my taper, before I began posting on KK and before I posted on this thread, you responded to several of my pleas (I can't even remember what the issue was now) and even though you were busy, you came back after doing whatever you had to do and continued to help me think about my taper.  A BIG thank you 

 

Can't believe i'm almost done....

 

SG...thanks for responding.  You know how much your thoughts and support have meant....the fact that you are beginning to rapid cycle sxs is a GOOD sign...that was happening to me a couple of months ago and I really think it signals the beginning of the end.  Try and think good thoughts about your future health....you are healing for sure. 

 

SO....weigh out .006 grams beginning Friday - then divide into 3 doses.  Then 10 more days and that's about it.  Brilliant.  Bad, I wonder if I should begin dropping doses during that 10 day period so that the jump is not as abrupt.  Say drop a dose every 3 days? 

 

Thanks again, everyone!

 

 

[[my...]]

Thanks, jr..a good idea.  I think I'll stick with Bad's solution but thanks for chiming in.  Such generous people here 

[Guest [Fu...]]

Hi everyone, I'm really looking for guidance from ya'll:

 

For the past two days I've stupidly been mixing a few 10 mg Valium pills with my usual 1.5 mg's of Klonopin. I kinda feel like I've really messed up by having a failed crossover and updosing for about a week to 2.0 mg's of Klonopin and now my numbers are all off and I don't know what to do. All I know is I needed relief and for the past few days this has provided that. Although Valium was a bit too "heavy" for me to take 30 mg's a day, a pill here or there can really help me relax before bed and get some decent sleep. Needless to say things have been a bit of a mess as far as a linear taper goes lately after months of steadily going down on the K with a liquid MT.

 

However, I know that it is not a good habit to get into. Has anyone else ever done this? As much as it kills me with all of the hard tapering work I did to get down I think I need to just updose to 2.0 mg's of Klonopin and resume a proper microtaper. Does this sound like a good idea?

[[jr...]]

2mg K =40mg V. you are on your way to a cross so just keep going.take it slow. I don't know how many times a day you are dosing but a lot of people only dose V once

[[ga...]]

Best wishes with your finally stretch of tapering, mana. I'm so glad you are so close to the end!

 

Gard

[[my...]]

Thank you Gard  . So kind of you  I'll keep checking in with occasional post-taper updates as well as hopefully some cheering on for those who still have a bit to go....

 

Bad....waiting to hear what you think about 3 - 2 - 1 over my last ten day cut period (as described in previous post)....it would almost be a version of an MT at the end...on the other hand...since MT didn't work well for me, maybe I should just take a deep breath...stick with .006g total for the last ten days and then throw out the pills...as I write this, I'm inclined to stick with what has worked.

 

 

 

 

[[ga...]]

Thank you Gard  . So kind of you  I'll keep checking in with occasional post-taper updates as well as hopefully some cheering on for those who still have a bit to go....

 

Bad....waiting to hear what you think about 3 - 2 - 1 over my last ten day cut period (as described in previous post)....it would almost be a version of an MT at the end...on the other hand...since MT didn't work well for me, maybe I should just take a deep breath...stick with .006g total for the last ten days and then throw out the pills...as I write this, I'm inclined to stick with what has worked.

 

Yay! 

[Guest [ba...]]

Could My Mana put the calibrating weight on the scale and then add the bit of pill? Then subtract the weight of the weight to get the pill weight, if that makes any sense. Would that make the scale work better?

 

Gard

 

That won't make any difference (sorry).  The accuracy of those little scales is just not high enough.  0.003 grams +/- 0.003 grams is the same as 10.003 grams minus 10 grams +/- 0.003 grams.  Is that 0.003 gram inaccuracy that limits these scales.  They're great little scales for the money, but they have their limits.

[[...]]

I went to see my pdoc yesterday and he said he thinks that the CT from the AD is a big part of why I'm struggling with tapering. He also think that the 25% reduction that I was forced to do in March is still having an effect and making it harder to taper. I thought that was interesing. He showed me a chart with all the benzo's and their cut to symptoms to stabilization rates. It also had a chart for PAWS. For my benzo and for the length of time I've been on it the symptoms can occur from 2-7 days after a cut and stabilization starts at about 14 days. That fits with what I've been experiencing.

 

He told me he just wants me to hold for now. He also gave me clonidine to help with the anxiety. I took it last night and slept horribly. I also had a giggling fit about 15 minutes after I took it, weird, and then I started getting really itchy all over my face, arms and hands. My lips felt numb and swollen and my throat felt like it was closing up. I also had to clear it a lot and I started coughing. I don't think I'll be taking it again. Today I've been really out of it, but my anxiety has been less. Though it has been increasing as the day wears on.

 

I'm so tired of feeling this way and a hold hasn't helped in the past. I had another doctor suggest I switch clonazepam for librium as he thought it would be easier to taper from. Anyone know anything about librium? He said I could do a direct cross as the k and the L act on the same receptor. I'm not convinced.

 

Hugs and healing to everyone. 

[[Ul...]]

I went to see my pdoc yesterday and he said he thinks that the CT from the AD is a big part of why I'm struggling with tapering. He also think that the 25% reduction that I was forced to do in March is still having an effect and making it harder to taper. I thought that was interesing. He showed me a chart with all the benzo's and their cut to symptoms to stabilization rates. It also had a chart for PAWS. For my benzo and for the length of time I've been on it the symptoms can occur from 2-7 days after a cut and stabilization starts at about 14 days. That fits with what I've been experiencing.

 

He told me he just wants me to hold for now. He also gave me clonidine to help with the anxiety. I took it last night and slept horribly. I also had a giggling fit about 15 minutes after I took it, weird, and then I started getting really itchy all over my face, arms and hands. My lips felt numb and swollen and my throat felt like it was closing up. I also had to clear it a lot and I started coughing. I don't think I'll be taking it again. Today I've been really out of it, but my anxiety has been less. Though it has been increasing as the day wears on.

 

I'm so tired of feeling this way and a hold hasn't helped in the past. I had another doctor suggest I switch clonazepam for librium as he thought it would be easier to taper from. Anyone know anything about librium? He said I could do a direct cross as the k and the L act on the same receptor. I'm not convinced.

 

Hugs and healing to everyone. 

 

OMG!! 25% reduction?? Really??!! In the month of March? From personal experience, I would say that someone should be shot for advising you to do that. I did that when I was just starting my taper on my own before I knew anything about BB. That was absolutely brutal. Bless your heart! You'll get there.

 

Librium? Gard, are you there? She's a pro on that stuff. I'm sure you'll hear from her soon.

 

Hugs, tnt!

 

Jeff

[[Gi...]]

Tntd,

 

You had a serious reaction to clonidine.  Don't ever take it again and be sure to list it as a medication allergy.  The chart your dr showed you sounds intersting.  Good luck with your taper.  G.

[[...]]

I went to see my pdoc yesterday and he said he thinks that the CT from the AD is a big part of why I'm struggling with tapering. He also think that the 25% reduction that I was forced to do in March is still having an effect and making it harder to taper. I thought that was interesing. He showed me a chart with all the benzo's and their cut to symptoms to stabilization rates. It also had a chart for PAWS. For my benzo and for the length of time I've been on it the symptoms can occur from 2-7 days after a cut and stabilization starts at about 14 days. That fits with what I've been experiencing.

 

He told me he just wants me to hold for now. He also gave me clonidine to help with the anxiety. I took it last night and slept horribly. I also had a giggling fit about 15 minutes after I took it, weird, and then I started getting really itchy all over my face, arms and hands. My lips felt numb and swollen and my throat felt like it was closing up. I also had to clear it a lot and I started coughing. I don't think I'll be taking it again. Today I've been really out of it, but my anxiety has been less. Though it has been increasing as the day wears on.

 

I'm so tired of feeling this way and a hold hasn't helped in the past. I had another doctor suggest I switch clonazepam for librium as he thought it would be easier to taper from. Anyone know anything about librium? He said I could do a direct cross as the k and the L act on the same receptor. I'm not convinced.

 

Hugs and healing to everyone. 

 

L is a lot like V.  They share the same metabolites and this gives them similar half lives.  If I were going to switch I would choose V as it is more convenient and known here...2mg pills, commercial liquid available, easy to liquify pills, easy to dry taper the 2mg pills.

 

Kind of a weird comment about the direct cross - ALL benzos act on the same receptor.  I agree with you, K half life is a lot different than L half life and that is what determines the need to cross slowly - half life difference.

 

I think he could be right about what happened last spring.  That was a lot of harsh perturbing stuff.  We have a simple model for tapering and it captures enough for us to kind of control things, but the truth is the brain is one complicated place with all kinds of interactions and causes and effects that no one really understands.  Glutamate symptoms are an example of this.  We reduce the benzo and it changes the GABA system, but that is obviously not happening in isolation as the problem spills over to the glutamate system, which we never messed with - they affected each other.  These drugs are like crowbars and there are I think hundreds of neurotransmitter systems in the brain.  There is likely a lot of intertwining, just like GABA and glutamate, and a change to any one of them probably prompts adjustments to many others.  We also see that when things get rocked hard it can take a long time to resolve and settle down.

[[ga...]]

I went to see my pdoc yesterday and he said he thinks that the CT from the AD is a big part of why I'm struggling with tapering. He also think that the 25% reduction that I was forced to do in March is still having an effect and making it harder to taper. I thought that was interesing. He showed me a chart with all the benzo's and their cut to symptoms to stabilization rates. It also had a chart for PAWS. For my benzo and for the length of time I've been on it the symptoms can occur from 2-7 days after a cut and stabilization starts at about 14 days. That fits with what I've been experiencing.

 

He told me he just wants me to hold for now. He also gave me clonidine to help with the anxiety. I took it last night and slept horribly. I also had a giggling fit about 15 minutes after I took it, weird, and then I started getting really itchy all over my face, arms and hands. My lips felt numb and swollen and my throat felt like it was closing up. I also had to clear it a lot and I started coughing. I don't think I'll be taking it again. Today I've been really out of it, but my anxiety has been less. Though it has been increasing as the day wears on.

 

I'm so tired of feeling this way and a hold hasn't helped in the past. I had another doctor suggest I switch clonazepam for librium as he thought it would be easier to taper from. Anyone know anything about librium? He said I could do a direct cross as the k and the L act on the same receptor. I'm not convinced.

 

Hugs and healing to everyone. 

 

I am wondering if you really want to switch meds right now. It does sound like your brain has had some pretty hard hits and is still reeling from them. When I was reeling, my doctor told me to stop making changes and just hold everything the same for a long time. I did that for 6 months before I saw significant improvement. So, unless you're pretty sure the K is the problem, switching when you're unstable could just make you more unstable.

 

Regarding Librium: I am tapering from Librium because I cannot take Valium. My question would be why not Valium? It is much, much easier to taper from than Librium. Librium is a pain in the behind! Don't go to Librium unless there's some reason you can't take Valium. Valium comes as a liquid that can just be diluted, or as tablets that can be cut or dissolved and will be stable as a liquid. Librium only comes in capsules in the US, the smallest being 5mg which is way too much to cut, so you have to open the tiny things and pour out the powder, which is a big pain. It is quite tricky to grip them just tight enough to open them without crushing them. And it is very questionable as to how stable L is as a liquid. (The chemistry people on this thread did lots of research on this for me awhile back and decided it was risky to keep it as a liquid). I have to mix up my dose every day. My pharmacist also said it could not be compounded into a liquid. V is stable as a liquid.

 

Also, V and L quickly break down into the same active metabolites in the body (that are also benzos and give them the long half lives). Librium was the first benzo and discovered by accident. Valium was created as an improvement on Librium. And it does seem to be because it is more stable and can be kept as a liquid. Unless they can't take Valium for some reason, most everybody goes with Valium. Ashton goes with Valium unless the person is already on Librium. Then she leaves them on Librium.

 

I have also noticed that the L capsules are like little concrete shells. My other meds that are tablets readily and rapidly dissolve into liquid so I figure they hit the stomach and turn to liquid quickly. The L capsules don't dissolve in anything I've tried so I have to open them. The L in the capsule hits the stomach and then must take some time for the capsule to dissolve and the med to be released. It might be released lower in the digestive tract where the ph is different, which would affect the amount that is absorbed. When I open a capsule and create a liquid, I am creating a whole different animal. I suspect that is why each time I change one more capsule to liquid I get spikes of symptoms.

 

So, I would question whether switching is the answer; it's a guess. And I would question why one would switch to Librium if one could take Valium. Seems crazy!

 

Wishing you stability and wisdom! It's a tough place you're in.

 

Gard

[[...]]

Wow, thanks for all the wonderful responses. You guys are great 

 

Gard, I think I will not switch to Librium after your description of it and the difficulties. The reason I don't want to switch to Valium is it seems to cause depression as a side effect in a lot of people and I'm super suceptible to that side effect. I guess I'll just stay where I am. Thank you so much for the invaluable information.

 

Gingermint, Thanks, I agree. I called my doctor's secretary and told her to tell my doctor what happened and that I won't be taking it again. It was a bit scary but unfortunately I have had that happen before and I have epi-pens in the house. I can't imagine what that would do to my CNS, but I'd be alive 

 

Jeff, 25% is crazy right. She wanted me to cut the K in half and I persuaded her to let me only cut 25%! Then she wouldn't believe me when I told her I was in withdrawal. She was really rude and insulting. That's why I have a new and better doctor now 

 

Well, I'm holding for now. I'm just tired of the daily anxiety and agoraphobia. I feel like I'm putting a hold on life right now.

Thanks again everyone, you're the best 

[Guest [ba...]]

Tntd,

 

You had a serious reaction to clonidine.  Don't ever take it again and be sure to list it as a medication allergy.  The chart your dr showed you sounds intersting.  Good luck with your taper.  G.

 

Agreed!!  Very important that you not take that drug again. 

[[ga...]]

Wow, thanks for all the wonderful responses. You guys are great 

 

Gard, I think I will not switch to Librium after your description of it and the difficulties. The reason I don't want to switch to Valium is it seems to cause depression as a side effect in a lot of people and I'm super suceptible to that side effect. I guess I'll just stay where I am. Thank you so much for the invaluable information.

 

Gingermint, Thanks, I agree. I called my doctor's secretary and told her to tell my doctor what happened and that I won't be taking it again. It was a bit scary but unfortunately I have had that happen before and I have epi-pens in the house. I can't imagine what that would do to my CNS, but I'd be alive 

 

Jeff, 25% is crazy right. She wanted me to cut the K in half and I persuaded her to let me only cut 25%! Then she wouldn't believe me when I told her I was in withdrawal. She was really rude and insulting. That's why I have a new and better doctor now 

 

Well, I'm holding for now. I'm just tired of the daily anxiety and agoraphobia. I feel like I'm putting a hold on life right now.

Thanks again everyone, you're the best 

 

Librium is also depressing and I went through many months of it until I was able to get lower. It has no benefit over Valium unless you can't take Valium. I took Librium because I was forced to take one dose of it at one time and did not have a reaction to it. (I tend to react to drugs badly, kind of like your recent experience) and I had genetic testing that listed Valium as a drug I should probably not take.

 

My decision to go to a slower benzo was because I was having to dose my Xanax 6 times/day and still felt like I was having inter-dose withdrawal. My life revolved around taking drugs, even in the middle of the night. That in itself was creating anxiety. I think it's important to not think about your meds and your symptoms constantly, but I was forced to do so every 4 hours. The switch was rough, but it is relief to not have to dose so often.

 

I am in agreement with the idea that if you can taper straight off your med, that's the best. If you hit a wall and are certain you can't go further (which I could not because Xanax is brutal to try to taper from, especially if you are area rapid metabolizer), try the Ashton crossover very slowly. I was fortunate in that for awhile I had an open-minded psychiatrist who let me do weird thing. I was balanced half on Xanax and half on Librium for months of my taper. It worked well for awhile. Sadly, he left the practice. Before he did, he crossed me all the way to Librium. I think he knew nobody else would write scripts that way, and I was sick of the 6x/day dosing anyway.

 

I sympathize with the feeling that your life is on hold. I went through many months of that. It still is, actually, but I have accepted it. I am making some very slow progress toward getting it back. I expect it will take 2 years, though.

 

Again, so very glad you have such a knowledgeable doctor. My pc prescribes benzos long term and sees no problem. I'm not even sure she believes that what I'm going through is withdrawal.

 

Gard

[[ga...]]

SG, I found this quote on BB when I was searching for info on Aleve (prescribed for sprained ankle). What do you think? People reported both that it helped and it hurt their w/d, so hard to know whether to take it or not and what to think of this.

 

"But I did find out researching this online that Naproxen (Aleve is a brand) and Dextromethorphan are both (non-addictive) glutamate blockers with the former showing stunning success in protecting the brain from neurotoxicity."

 

Gard

[[Ki...]]

It is tough for a lot of people to do the crossover but just because V is "depressing" in the beginning doesnt mean it will always be. I do think that while valium is depressing for a lot of people, much of it is just adjustment and WD itself. have seen so many people write that they gave up on valium after a few days or weeks because of this and I cant help but wonder if they had crossed over fully how many if them might have adjusted. I had a miserable crossover but after that and holding for a few weeks the depression turned into just tired and blah, but gradually it got somewhat better. Its no fun, thats for sure, but I cant help but think a lot of the time its just the changes- and just trudging through it a little longer might have helped some. But you never know. I was sure V was not for me but Im glad folks like SG, Gard and a few other amazing folks encouraged me to stay the course. You just cant know until you do it...

[[Ul...]]

Wow, thanks for all the wonderful responses. You guys are great 

 

Gard, I think I will not switch to Librium after your description of it and the difficulties. The reason I don't want to switch to Valium is it seems to cause depression as a side effect in a lot of people and I'm super suceptible to that side effect. I guess I'll just stay where I am. Thank you so much for the invaluable information.

 

Gingermint, Thanks, I agree. I called my doctor's secretary and told her to tell my doctor what happened and that I won't be taking it again. It was a bit scary but unfortunately I have had that happen before and I have epi-pens in the house. I can't imagine what that would do to my CNS, but I'd be alive 

 

Jeff, 25% is crazy right. She wanted me to cut the K in half and I persuaded her to let me only cut 25%! Then she wouldn't believe me when I told her I was in withdrawal. She was really rude and insulting. That's why I have a new and better doctor now 

 

Well, I'm holding for now. I'm just tired of the daily anxiety and agoraphobia. I feel like I'm putting a hold on life right now.

Thanks again everyone, you're the best 

 

Tnt: Valium, increased depression...yada, yada, yada. That's the exact same reason I never tried to cross to V. K is bad enough, didn't need any extra depression from the V. I'm telling ya...we're like two peas in a pod!

 

Bless ya, girl!!

 

Jeff

[[...]]

Tnt- I crossed K to L and it went fine. My doc didn't offer V and said L was gentler than V whatever that means. Anyway, I've never taken V but the L is fine. They all suck, really. I find the L to be easy to work with as I empty out the capsule and use a scale. I don't liquefy. One less variable and I like less variables. I know everyone is looking for the answer of what to do and how to do it so they can feel good. Believe me- I'm looking for the answer too at times. But there is no "answer". It's constant trial and error for most of us here. For those who figured it out or aren't so sensitive, they aren't really here. Good luck!

[[Ma...]]

I have a question about the gemini scale.  What surface do you put it on? I get 1 reading on right kitchen counter and another reading on opposite counter.  Not to mention different readings on a second scale.  So where is the best place to put scale when measuring?

[Guest [ba...]]

Put it on a solid, level surface away from drafts and vibrations.  Don't lean on the counter when you use it.  Don't breath on it when you use it.  It will still vary a little bit (2-3 mgs).  That's the limit of the scale's accuracy, so you'll never do better than that.

[[Ma...]]

Im a newbie. And my ass was kicked bad last week. I know my mistakes. Rushing the taper and not holding when symptoms flare.

 

But there might be one other problem. Things went wrong at 9mg dry cut. That's when I raised rate from .03 to .04. BUT my method for cutting might be an issue. Could you comment on it please.

 

I use a Gemini scale. I never understood the "g" mode. So I based all my calulations on""gn". Measured 10 (10 mg) pills and got an average of 2.37.

 

For first cut to 9 from 10 (  I multiplied by .10 and got .24. Subtracted that from 2.37 got 2.13.  So 2.13 is the weight of 9 mg.

 

Was that ok?

 

Is there a better way to do it?  Soon I will dry cut to 8 from 10.  What is your way?

 

[Guest [ba...]]

Mag - You did your calculation correctly.

 

Gn are grains (not grams).  No harm if you have used grains for all of your calculations, but you'll not be able to easily compare your numbers to most individuals since the conversion from grains to grams is not commonly known (unless you google it).  At this point, is probably easiest to just stay with grains.  It will work just fine for you.