Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[cr...]]

Ed and Kgirl, thanks so much for responding, I appreciate it. Cross

[[ga...]]

Thank you for all your advice.  I'll definitely consider everything.  I'm sure the slower I go the better for my body. No doubt about that.  I want this to work. I'm in the gathering information stage right now.  With the help of this forum, I'm confident I'lll find what will work.  At some point, I think I will have to go to a liquid form of some sort - just have to figure out what I can manage - along with what my body can tolerate.  Best to all.

 

You sound like you're doing this the right way. Gather info and think it through; then start your taper. You can actually cut in whatever pattern works for you: daily, every other day, once/week, once/month. Just don't go faster than 10% of your total dose per month. You might even start at 5% and see how that feels before you try 10%. I'm working my way up right now and haven't hit 10% yet. When I start to feel symptoms ramp up, I will slow down my rate of taper. I tried to taper too fast from Xanax and had a terrible crash that took a year to recover from. I should have started slower and spared myself a lot of misery. Now I'm tapering Librium and am being much more cautious. My family appreciates that I am much more functional and so do I!

 

Best wishes!

 

Gard

[[cr...]]

SG, so sorry you are still dealing with the stones issue. Your urologist probably already told you this, making sure you drink lemon juice in water every day can prevent them. It has worked like magic for my husband, who hasn't had a stone for years now. I know there are a couple of types of stones and maybe you don't have the type that responds to the lemon juice, but wanted to throw it out there. I wish you speedy and unpainful success. Cross

[[...]]

Hey tnt, I'd be happy if I could cut 2% in FOUR months!!! Try not to sweat it. I think the pace of the taper comes and goes. Sometimes we move "fast" and other times we don't. I've been on enough pharmaceuticals over the decades to sink Trump's ego!! That's a lot, but we just gotta do what's needed. You'll get there!!!

 

Jeff

 

Hi Jeff, I wouldn't mind so much if I didn't have such horrible symptoms on a daily basis even when I'm not cutting.

 

So I decided to get in another couple of cuts before my son gets home. Bad idea. I started having increased symptoms the day I started the cut. I already had my meds made up for the two day cut so I didn't have any choice but to move forward. I'm begining to wonder if my cuts catch up with me about five to seven days after I make them.

 

I was doing a c/c/h/h/h pattern that seemed to be working well and then I did a c/c/c/h/h/h pattern and everything went horrible so I tried to go back to the c/c/h/h/h. So this is what happened I cut from Dec 2-4 and held for five days because my symptoms were so bad. I started to feel better so I decided to do the c/c/h/h/h again but that is when the symptoms hit. It was Dec 10th.  It just feels like I'm constantly hitting a wall of sxs. Sg suggests I hold longer and I'm going to hold from now through the holidays at least and see how I feel. I'm just wondering if I need to do more of a cut and then hold since even the tiny cuts catch me really quickly. Feeling really frustrated.

 

I don't know if any of that made sense. In any case I was non-functional again today on the second day of cutting which I'm pretty sure is not because of the cutting that I'm currently doing, especially since I started feeling the withdrawal on the first day of the cut and there is no way my body would go into symptoms pre-cut unless it was reacting to a past cut. Now I think I'm just rambling. Sorry. I guess I just don't feel like I'm explaining it very well.

 

Are there some people that the micro taper just doesn't work for?

 

Thanks for all your help. You guys are amazing and I appreciate your time.

[[ga...]]

I'm sorry this is so hard, tntd, and that I don't have any answers for you. I wish I did. I'm going at about 3%/month right now but next week will try 6%. If that bombs, I'll be back at 3% or maybe a hold through the holidays. My symptoms are really annoying but I'm functional most of the time. Of course, I don't have much functioning to do since I'm early-retired. I could never work through this. I have to set such a slow pace to get through the day. But I do get through.

 

Hope you get some relief soon.

 

Gard

[[Kg...]]

Tntd:  Sorry to hear you are having so much trouble.  Re your question:  Some people have had lots of  trouble micro tapering.  I have no idea why since like all things related to benzos it makes no sense.  I know NYC Waverunner tried it and it did not work for her with the K. She went back to cut and hold and did better. I recall others had the same experience - I think Maya was another - she had to do cut and hold.  So you must do what works for you.  Given that holding seems to make YOU feel better the answer for you may be to hold for a couple of months until you feel better. Than hold some more and start again from a place of feeling well. If the hold doesn't help well you can just start cutting again.  Unfortunately for each of us finding what works is particular to us and how our own bodies work. What works for others does not necessarily work for you. 

 

What helped me figure out what worked for me is a daily journal.  I could see what days I felt 'better' vs the days I felt worse.  If you then go back and read it you can figure out your pattern or lack thereof and what helps or doesn't. 

 

All I will say is that you will figure this out- many of us have been where you are and now are off. Take it one day at a time and be kind to yourself.

 

 

[[Ma...]]

I am wondering if dlmt is right for me.  Was at a .03 then .04 daily rate and am slammed with nausea very bad.  I am an ultra fast metabolizer of that enzyme that processes valium.

 

My question is does this method using valium just not work for some people? Is this enzyme fast metabolizer a factor?  If you are a fast metabolizer does that mean you have to go slower?  I would appreciate any feedback.

[[...]]

Thanks Gard and Kgirl,

 

I seem to just be getting worse and worse the more I try this micro taper. Like I keep getting hit from behind. There's no way that the first day of a cut can produce symptoms so it has to be from the previous cut that I ended six days before. As much as I hate the idea I'm really leaning towards trying the cut and hold method. Thanks kgirl for letting me know other k klubers tried the MT and it didn't work for them. I'm really sad that this isn't working for me though, I agree that it makes no sense. I really thought it would keep the wd sxs to a point where I was functional most of the time, instead I have been non-functional most of the time. Can't imagine being non-functional for 4 1/2 or more years.

 

I am planning on going back and re-read my journal and my symptoms log to be sure that I'm not mis-remembering and I will continue to keep a journal and log as I try the cut and hold method. First I am going to hold through the holidays at the very least as I'm feeling very non-functional right now and my son is due home on Sunday, Yay   

 

Thanks again for all your help and the knowledge and experience that you bring to these boards. It helps to hear other's stories and know that even though this hasn't been working there is another way that might. I'll keep trying until I find what works for me. 

[[ed...]]

Thanks Gard and Kgirl,

 

I seem to just be getting worse and worse the more I try this micro taper. Like I keep getting hit from behind. There's no way that the first day of a cut can produce symptoms so it has to be from the previous cut that I ended six days before. As much as I hate the idea I'm really leaning towards trying the cut and hold method. Thanks kgirl for letting me know other k klubers tried the MT and it didn't work for them. I'm really sad that this isn't working for me though, I agree that it makes no sense. I really thought it would keep the wd sxs to a point where I was functional most of the time, instead I have been non-functional most of the time. Can't imagine being non-functional for 4 1/2 or more years.

 

I am planning on going back and re-read my journal and my symptoms log to be sure that I'm not mis-remembering and I will continue to keep a journal and log as I try the cut and hold method. First I am going to hold through the holidays at the very least as I'm feeling very non-functional right now and my son is due home on Sunday, Yay   

 

Thanks again for all your help and the knowledge and experience that you bring to these boards. It helps to hear other's stories and know that even though this hasn't been working there is another way that might. I'll keep trying until I find what works for me. 

 

I've bounced back and forth between cut and hold and DMT a number of times during this journey. Also, regardless of what some say, you most certainly can feel a micro cut the day after it is taken. It's happened to me several times after a hold of a couple of weeks.  You don't have to choose one method or another.  When one doesn't work, don't be afraid to switch things up. 

 

Best,

Ed

[[wa...]]

I am currently doing a LMT. At first it was daily but I am learning to listen to my body. It appears I can cut about four to five days in a row then hold for 3 then proceed. This is the pattern  I am currently seeing. I reduce by .02 mls of my 75 mls milk with 75 mg of clonazepam. I started with cut and hold of pills but I was hit hard. I find liquid is better for me even if I am cutting and holding with it. Follow what feels best for you. Good luck to us all as we taper.

[[Ma...]]

I think I am also discovering that holds need to be incorporated into mt. Started 2 months ago. Month1  no symptoms so I upped rate. Since I'm stupid and new at this I didn't realize 3 weeks ago when the nausea started to back down. Kept tapering for 60 days. Now I have developed major nausea and stomach cramping. So holding til after xmas.  Then have to refigure how I will incorporate hold times to let things settle., I guess raising my decline rate month 2 did me in.is was,warned not to but .........

[[st...]]

I've read through several pages of recent posts, and I think I may have figured out what is going on with me. I have been cutting Ativan at a rate of .0015 per day, cutting for 5 days and holding for 5 days. If symptoms creep up on me, I hold for an extra couple of days, and then proceed as normal. About a week ago, I held for a couple of days longer since I was starting to have trouble sleeping and was feeling extra weepy. Then, I figured I would just hold through Christmas to give myself a break. But, instead of feeling better, it seems like I'm feeling more nauseous, anxious, and having increased muscle tension each additional day I hold. I seems like there are some of you that also don't do well with longer holds. Maybe I'm in that group too.

[[...]]

I've read through several pages of recent posts, and I think I may have figured out what is going on with me. I have been cutting Ativan at a rate of .0015 per day, cutting for 5 days and holding for 5 days. If symptoms creep up on me, I hold for an extra couple of days, and then proceed as normal. About a week ago, I held for a couple of days longer since I was starting to have trouble sleeping and was feeling extra weepy. Then, I figured I would just hold through Christmas to give myself a break. But, instead of feeling better, it seems like I'm feeling more nauseous, anxious, and having increased muscle tension each additional day I hold. I seems like there are some of you that also don't do well with longer holds. Maybe I'm in that group too.

 

It could be as you describe, but I would not be too quick to conclude that.  The nature of these symptoms is to wax and wane and it is easy to be deceived that you are getting worse during a hold when actually IMO most people will benefit eventually if they stick with it.

[[st...]]

True. However, I haven't felt this bad in a few months. It's hard not to equate it to the hold.

[[Va...]]

I've read through several pages of recent posts, and I think I may have figured out what is going on with me. I have been cutting Ativan at a rate of .0015 per day, cutting for 5 days and holding for 5 days. If symptoms creep up on me, I hold for an extra couple of days, and then proceed as normal. About a week ago, I held for a couple of days longer since I was starting to have trouble sleeping and was feeling extra weepy. Then, I figured I would just hold through Christmas to give myself a break. But, instead of feeling better, it seems like I'm feeling more nauseous, anxious, and having increased muscle tension each additional day I hold. I seems like there are some of you that also don't do well with longer holds. Maybe I'm in that group too.

 

It could be as you describe, but I would not be too quick to conclude that.  The nature of these symptoms is to wax and wane and it is easy to be deceived that you are getting worse during a hold when actually IMO most people will benefit eventually if they stick with it.

I know everyone is different but I actually felt worse several weeks into a long hold before I started to feel better. It seems the symptom pattern changes. Old sxs drop off only to be replaced by new ones that come on strong initially. I do admit there are some who don't seem to benefit from long holds. There are so many variables to consider in a taper but IMO, a long hold can be a useful tool if your body responds to it and you've tapered your way into purgatory. I know it is sometimes a controversial subject but I just look at it as another tool to use during the tapering process.  --V

[[...]]

All of this stuff is so confusing. Our own bodies don't do the same things from one time to the next.

 

Ed, I agree you can get symptoms the day after a micro cut but I got symptoms the day of my first cut and I hadn't cut yet so it couldn't have been from that. I have had the wonderful experience of the day after a cut having wd sxs too. In fact the very first time I cut, before I even knew withdrawal existed, the day after I cut I had some mild wd sxs for a few days, then felt great for a ffew days and then went into about six days of major withdrawal sxs. After that I stabilized until I CTd my antidepressant a couple of months later. Nothing has been the same since. I so wish I hadn't increased my benzo at that point but I did and now I'm paying the price. Frustratingly it didn't even really help with the CT from the AD.

 

Stacy, I've been reading a little over on the long hold thread and they often go through waves of feeling better and then worse again before they finally stabilize, or decide to cut again. I have also read others that find that the longer they hold the worse they get. The only way to find out what is going on with you is to experiment. If the cutting for five days and holding for five days is working though that's awesome, I hope it keeps working for you 

 

I hope everyone can find what works the best for them, it seems like it may be a constantly changing goal for some though. I really appreciate everyone's help you all are awesome 

[[Ul...]]

Hey tnt, I'd be happy if I could cut 2% in FOUR months!!! Try not to sweat it. I think the pace of the taper comes and goes. Sometimes we move "fast" and other times we don't. I've been on enough pharmaceuticals over the decades to sink Trump's ego!! That's a lot, but we just gotta do what's needed. You'll get there!!!

 

Jeff

 

Hi Jeff, I wouldn't mind so much if I didn't have such horrible symptoms on a daily basis even when I'm not cutting.

 

So I decided to get in another couple of cuts before my son gets home. Bad idea. I started having increased symptoms the day I started the cut. I already had my meds made up for the two day cut so I didn't have any choice but to move forward. I'm begining to wonder if my cuts catch up with me about five to seven days after I make them.

 

I was doing a c/c/h/h/h pattern that seemed to be working well and then I did a c/c/c/h/h/h pattern and everything went horrible so I tried to go back to the c/c/h/h/h. So this is what happened I cut from Dec 2-4 and held for five days because my symptoms were so bad. I started to feel better so I decided to do the c/c/h/h/h again but that is when the symptoms hit. It was Dec 10th.  It just feels like I'm constantly hitting a wall of sxs. Sg suggests I hold longer and I'm going to hold from now through the holidays at least and see how I feel. I'm just wondering if I need to do more of a cut and then hold since even the tiny cuts catch me really quickly. Feeling really frustrated.

 

I don't know if any of that made sense. In any case I was non-functional again today on the second day of cutting which I'm pretty sure is not because of the cutting that I'm currently doing, especially since I started feeling the withdrawal on the first day of the cut and there is no way my body would go into symptoms pre-cut unless it was reacting to a past cut. Now I think I'm just rambling. Sorry. I guess I just don't feel like I'm explaining it very well.

 

Are there some people that the micro taper just doesn't work for?

 

Thanks for all your help. You guys are amazing and I appreciate your time.

 

Sounds to me like you have a good idea going. I was thinking the same....maybe try an experiment of doing a small cut, and then simply hold to see how long it takes for it to give sx, if any. Learning that would tell you a lot. I've had to do that in the past, usually before I had to adjust the amount I cut (which is really tiny). SG and Builder would be better suited to answer the question about whether or not the micro taper doesn't work for some people (whether it be liquid taper or dry cut and hold) . I kind of wonder what the alternative would be....cut bigger?? I wouldn't think so, but I guess anything is possible. Cutting faster?? Hmmm, that sounds scary. CT? My God, I hope not!! Maybe cutting and holding IS your answer. It's a journey, so just one little step at a time. One foot in front of the other.

 

It's easy to say "don't get frustrated". We've all been there. Whether we like it or not we're all going to be really patient when this is all over    That's ok since patience is a virtue.

 

Hand tight, and try to focus every now and then on something totally unrelated to the taper. Believe!

 

Hugs,

 

Jeff

[[Ul...]]

Thanks Gard and Kgirl,

 

I seem to just be getting worse and worse the more I try this micro taper. Like I keep getting hit from behind. There's no way that the first day of a cut can produce symptoms so it has to be from the previous cut that I ended six days before. As much as I hate the idea I'm really leaning towards trying the cut and hold method. Thanks kgirl for letting me know other k klubers tried the MT and it didn't work for them. I'm really sad that this isn't working for me though, I agree that it makes no sense. I really thought it would keep the wd sxs to a point where I was functional most of the time, instead I have been non-functional most of the time. Can't imagine being non-functional for 4 1/2 or more years.

 

I am planning on going back and re-read my journal and my symptoms log to be sure that I'm not mis-remembering and I will continue to keep a journal and log as I try the cut and hold method. First I am going to hold through the holidays at the very least as I'm feeling very non-functional right now and my son is due home on Sunday, Yay   

 

Thanks again for all your help and the knowledge and experience that you bring to these boards. It helps to hear other's stories and know that even though this hasn't been working there is another way that might. I'll keep trying until I find what works for me. 

 

It ain't gonna take you no 4 1/2 years!! I'll bet my life on that one!

[[...]]

Thanks for the validation of trying a small cut and seeing how long it takes to catch up with me. Doesn't sound fun but then none of this is 

 

I've been crocheting and watching TV to get my mind off the taper. I have to something to distract as the anxiety is constant.

 

Ultra, You made me laugh, thanks. I really hope you're right. I've been looking at some other people who tapered from K and what their plans were and I may steal one that I like and give it a go. Doing the Ashton Manual thing, seems to work for some people and this person got off the stuff a bit faster. She tried the liquid micro taper and it didn't work for her.

 

So many methods it's hard to know what is best for an individual person. I really appreciate all the input though. I love learning new things and though this isn't any fun it is definitely educational 

[[my...]]

Good morning,

This is a note for SG

Thinking of you as I wind this taper down to zero.  Less than two weeks....that's after two plus years tapering from 2 mg K...as you know.

 

The bits on the scale barely register as I dose 3 X a day.  Just "cut" my pills for today and tomorrow then on 12/16 I make my last reduction to .017mg or .006 g. 

 

There is really no way .002g will register even though the scale is supposed to read down to .001g.

 

I'm wondering if I should try and dose once a day beginning Friday...as the scale could easily read .006g?  I could try 2x a day @ .003g each dose but if the scale is iffy at .004 it will be more so @ .003 and I'd rather not mess around with inaccurate cuts....so what to do?

 

Many/some think I should just step off now, but I kind of want to complete my program as planned and finish on 12/26.

 

Can you believe C/H has worked for me all the way down?  Crazy....I'm feeling pretty well most of the time these days.  I've learned patience and how to endure...in a way I never thought possible.

 

I'll come back, of course to express my gratitude for ALL you have done to support and encourage me.

In the mean time, though...any thoughts you might have on the scale/dose reduction (which I know can be experienced as a kind of cut) would be appreciated.

 

Thanks.

 

Mana

[[...]]

Good morning,

This is a note for SG

Thinking of you as I wind this taper down to zero.  Less than two weeks....that's after two plus years tapering from 2 mg K...as you know.

 

The bits on the scale barely register as I dose 3 X a day.  Just "cut" my pills for today and tomorrow then on 12/16 I make my last reduction to .017mg or .006 g. 

 

There is really no way .002g will register even though the scale is supposed to read down to .001g.

 

I'm wondering if I should try and dose once a day beginning Friday...as the scale could easily read .006g?  I could try 2x a day @ .003g each dose but if the scale is iffy at .004 it will be more so @ .003 and I'd rather not mess around with inaccurate cuts....so what to do?

 

Many/some think I should just step off now, but I kind of want to complete my program as planned and finish on 12/26.

 

Can you believe C/H has worked for me all the way down?  Crazy....I'm feeling pretty well most of the time these days.  I've learned patience and how to endure...in a way I never thought possible.

 

I'll come back, of course to express my gratitude for ALL you have done to support and encourage me.

In the mean time, though...any thoughts you might have on the scale/dose reduction (which I know can be experienced as a kind of cut) would be appreciated.

 

Thanks.

 

Mana

 

Hi MM, Glad you have done so well with C&H an are almost done.  It sounds like you're operating within the noise of the scale so it is not capable of giving you an accurate reading.  I'd think the best you could do is to measure it out as well as you can and try to check it by eyeballing the size...or maybe even measuring the pieces with a ruler?  Maybe some of the other scale people will chime in on what they did and how it went at the end.  I'd tend not to change the number of doses and just keep everything the same and do the best you can.

 

I'm the same as always.  A little rough today.  I get a lot of on and off lately - good periods and bad periods within the day.  I just keep plodding and hope for a better future.  It helps to remind myself that this gets easier and easier along the way.

[Guest [ba...]]

I'd be tempted to weigh out the day's dose all at once, then eyeball it into three doses.  You'll be close enough eyeballing thirds, and your scale should do a decent job weighing the entire day's dose at once.  You're correct that once you get down to around 3-4 mgs, the scale will not work very well for you.  Probably time to jump at that point.

[[ed...]]

Good morning,

This is a note for SG

Thinking of you as I wind this taper down to zero.  Less than two weeks....that's after two plus years tapering from 2 mg K...as you know.

 

The bits on the scale barely register as I dose 3 X a day.  Just "cut" my pills for today and tomorrow then on 12/16 I make my last reduction to .017mg or .006 g. 

 

There is really no way .002g will register even though the scale is supposed to read down to .001g.

 

I'm wondering if I should try and dose once a day beginning Friday...as the scale could easily read .006g?  I could try 2x a day @ .003g each dose but if the scale is iffy at .004 it will be more so @ .003 and I'd rather not mess around with inaccurate cuts....so what to do?

 

Many/some think I should just step off now, but I kind of want to complete my program as planned and finish on 12/26.

 

Can you believe C/H has worked for me all the way down?  Crazy....I'm feeling pretty well most of the time these days.  I've learned patience and how to endure...in a way I never thought possible.

 

I'll come back, of course to express my gratitude for ALL you have done to support and encourage me.

In the mean time, though...any thoughts you might have on the scale/dose reduction (which I know can be experienced as a kind of cut) would be appreciated.

 

Thanks.

 

Mana

 

I'd crush my pills into a powder first. Then, weigh out the smallest amount that you feel the scale can accurately measure. From there, you can just use a razor blade to eyeball out equal amounts.

 

When you get lower still, say .001, measure out .005 (as your post seems to show that is the last weight at which the scale isn't iffy), divide into 5 equal piles, you now have your 3 daily doses plus two extra. Put the two extra piles of powder back into the container for later use.  I use a mortar and pestle to crush my pills, but since you're almost done, I'd just use the back of a spoon and crush the pills on a piece of aluminum foil sitting on the counter.

 

Best,

Ed

[[fi...]]

Hello All - I'll try and keep this short and sweet - not the perfect place to post but I'm looking for help anywhere i can get it

 

I have been on Valium now for nearly a year - and have NEVER felt right on it - I've only tapered from 10mg to 6.5 in all this time - I was crossed over from Klonipin after a failed Klonipin taper that was much too rapid and much too large of cuts - I was reinstated 3 months out and then a month or two later crossed to Valium - like I said I have never felt right after the move.  I then started having a lot of issues with my thyroid - and no adjustment in meds is helping - I've been on thyroid meds long before Benzo's and all during the 5 years I was on Klonipin - without incidence - yesterday me and my Dr realized that my Thyroid tanked about the time I made the switch to the Valium

 

I'm seriously considering crossing BACK to klonipn and then doing a micro taper directly from Klonipn.  Anyone ever see success with this? My thyroid symptoms are insane and I can't taper ANYTHING in the state I'm in.........and my numbers are in the toilet.....

 

I would LOVE to find someone who has crossed from Valium back to their shorter acting benzo with success?

 

Thanks for reading!

[[ga...]]

Could My Mana put the calibrating weight on the scale and then add the bit of pill? Then subtract the weight of the weight to get the pill weight, if that makes any sense. Would that make the scale work better?

 

Gard