Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

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I stopped eating cruciferous vegetables months ago sadly, as I really like them.

 

My understanding is that cruciferous veggies only affect enzyme 1A2, which is not involved with clearing K, so it should be okay to eat them in your case.

[[Pl...]]

Builder or SG,

Would liquefy ing more than 1 mg of v possibly reduce morning nausea?  I thought it was a stomach bug but not going away. Is there any info on less nausea if you drink your valium.  I take 1/2 dose at 11pm and the other half when I wake up around 3.

 

Liquid is not causing your nausea, but WD could be.

I totally respectfully disagree

I have went thru this personally and experienced just that and

wanted to share....

.keep in mind I had not started reducing yet at all....

The very day I switched to liquid I became very ill

and my sxs increased by 3 times...including nausea

which I wasnt experiencing before.... I was never fully stabilized

before but the milk just made me so much worse....

 

I thought that that was just the way it was

and I stayed in this state for 6 months getting worse....

It was my fault for not recognizing that MY body did not like this method...( or the drug for that matter even in pill form)

 

I have corresponded with people on here who had the

same exact experience as me and immediately went back to pill form....

Even saying they felt like they went cold turkey even after updosing

 

Is this true for everybody? Absolutely not.... I see people do great doing this method

It took time for them to get used to it and it worked

I very badly wanted this to work for me

Because I loved the method...

 

Its your experience and you know what you are feeling

and nobody can tell you with 100 certainty if it is or not....

 

They can speculate and try to guide you but only YOU know your body...

 

Edit: I just reread your post and saw that you were asking if liquefying could REDUCE your nausea and not be the cause..... 

[[cr...]]

What is DBT?  Thank you. Cross

[[ga...]]

CBT=Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (a rather broad term, actually)

DBT=Dialectical Behavioral Therapy (more recent, just google it, can be done individually or in a more intensive format that includes group meetings)

ACT=Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (the latest, hard to find practitioners)

[[jr...]]

well, I am down to .0180mg on a LT. I still am having side effects like depression, tension headaches, slight anxiety, and a general feeling of unwellness. I am resolved to the fact that I may have a protracted withdrawal and wanted to ask you all if I should hold at my present dosage or continue on to zero and see what happens.

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DBT is a bit of a combination of CBT and mindfullness. I am fortunate to have wonderful facilitators for my group. There are a number of modules that are 6 to 8 weeks in length, for my group anyway. The one we are doing right now is interpersonal relationships. The one we just finished was Distress Tolerance. I can't remember the others off the top of my head. I agree with Gard that the therapist or therapists in charge make or break the group. Our therapists recommend going through the whole course twice and then there is an exit group. We meet once a week and we always have a homework assignment. My therapists also told me there are apps available for DBT. I haven't really looked into them so I don't know if they are any good.

 

Well, I calculated how long it will take me to get off my benzo if I do a c/c/h/h/h cutting .0019mg. Now I'm feeling really down. I've been trying to accept it and just get on with it because the time will pass even if I'm not tapering but it has been very hard to accept. The anxiety has been less today with surges here and there. The agoraphobia never seems to change. That is what has me down. I don't know if I can handle four and half years plus, depending on extra holding and how I feel once I'm done with the taper, of agoraphobia and anxiety every single day. Is it normal for a taper to take this long?

 

I'm hoping and praying that they symptoms will go away long before I finish tapering. I'm also hoping that at some point I may be able to increase my rate of taper.

 

I really appreciate all the help you guys have given me. I hope I can return the kindness. 

[[Pl...]]

I stopped eating cruciferous vegetables months ago sadly, as I really like them.

 

My understanding is that cruciferous veggies only affect enzyme 1A2, which is not involved with clearing K, so it should be okay to eat them in your case.

SG... Does that mean kale is okay too?

[[...]]

I stopped eating cruciferous vegetables months ago sadly, as I really like them.

 

My understanding is that cruciferous veggies only affect enzyme 1A2, which is not involved with clearing K, so it should be okay to eat them in your case.

 

That makes me happy. So if I'm understanding you right certain food affect certain benzos and how they clear and it's different depending on the benzo you are using? So what would be the no no's for K?

 

Thanks SG

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My understanding is that cruciferous veggies only affect enzyme 1A2, which is not involved with clearing K, so it should be okay to eat them in your case.

SG... Does that mean kale is okay too?

 

K is cleared by 3A4 alone so if kale does not mess with 3A4 it should be fine. You can google this stuff and find answers pretty easily. Most foods are fine, but not all.

[[...]]

My understanding is that cruciferous veggies only affect enzyme 1A2, which is not involved with clearing K, so it should be okay to eat them in your case.

That makes me happy. So if I'm understanding you right certain food affect certain benzos and how they clear and it's different depending on the benzo you are using? So what would be the no no's for K?

 

Thanks SG

 

Yes, each benzo is cleared by specific enzymes that have been researched and are well known. Things we ingest can affect these enzymes and make them work faster or slower thus speeding or slowing drug clearance, which essentially increases or decreases our internal dose.

 

K is cleared by 3A4 alone. I am not that familiar with the usual suspects for this enzyme, but you can look them up. I

know grapefruit juice is a potent inhibitor of 3A4 and so would updose you. And I think certain common meds interact with this one, but I don't recall which ones. 3A4 is involved with clearing many drugs. A little googling can give you a good idea .

[[cr...]]

Ed, I have the same question bout the consistent reduction and pace. Has anyone responded yet?  I just don't want to miss the answer. I never asked it before because I couldn't find the right words to ask it, but you nailed it. Cross

 

Did you keep a consistent reduction, as well as pace, the whole way down. For example, if you were reducing by say, .02mg per day while at 2mg, would you still reduce by .02mg per day at .5mg?  I obviously don't know your actual numbers, but just setting up an example.

[[ed...]]

Hey Cross! 

 

I did get a PM and the answer from this particular person was that they felt as though they wouldn't heal until they were completely off. Also, they felt that dragging it out would not have really done anything helpful since under 2mg of Valium is a less than therapeutic dose (according to their doc). Of course, it could be argued that many of us aren't at a therapeutic dose at well over 2mg considering we receive no relief from it. But that's another story. 

 

So yes, they kept up the pace until the end because there comes a point where percentages have to go out the window or we'd never finish the taper.  I've decided to heed that advice and will continue to taper even on moderately crappy days. Now if things bottom out completely, I'll rethink things, obviously.

 

Best,

Ed

[[Kg...]]

Cross:  I am sorry I didn't answer on the boards.  I don't post much anymore and my time on benzo buddies is limited.  My mentor Clona 21 who helped me get off told me to keep up the pace I was on and if I got into the weeds all the time to slow my pace incrementally vs. stopping. This is based on my body and what worked for me because holding never helped me and I usually felt better and came out of the weeds if I cut.  The benzo acted like a poison to me so what I had to do was figure out a pace where I could survive the s/x  while getting off. I was one of those who felt a lot better as I got down in my dose. 

 

I cut my Klonopin out first and then held for around 2 months before starting to cut my small Valium dose of 2 mg. Looking back I don't think it made any difference for me to hold but it is hard to know things like this at the time.

 

The pace I used for Valium was essentially the same pace as for Klonopin. I cut .5 mg of Valium a month doing a micro taper.  For me it turned out (based on my pill weight) that I cut .002 grams on a c/c/c/h schedule.  I kept this up all the way down.  I dosed 2 times a day. At the end I cut my night dose first, since sleep is not an issue for me and then I cut the AM dose.  I was warned by others that being off would still be a roller coaster of s/x ups and downs but each down would not last as long even though to be frank when they hit they are harder to handle since you are just so sick of it and become used to feeling decent. 

 

I feel much better off than on the drug.  I saw my internist for a check up yesterday she could not believe the change in me. She said I looked years younger, my hair was back to being thick and shiny, my skin was not wrinkled and sallow and I didn't look like I was wasting away.  I knew I felt like crap I didn't realize I looked like it as well. 

 

So IMHO just get the heck off of the poison. 

 

 

[[jr...]]

Thanks for the input. much appreciated

 

[[...]]

well, I am down to .0180mg on a LT. I still am having side effects like depression, tension headaches, slight anxiety, and a general feeling of unwellness. I am resolved to the fact that I may have a protracted withdrawal and wanted to ask you all if I should hold at my present dosage or continue on to zero and see what happens.

 

Honestly, I think if you taper and symptoms get no worse it will not change the time it takes to get well.  I think the added time comes in when we go too fast and create glutamate damage.  That's my belief.  If you avoid that, it should not matter time-wise whether you hold now or get off and wait at this point.

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SG I can't find any info on foods to avoid while taking clonazepam. I googled extensively and found nothing  The only thing I've ever read is to avoid cruciferous vegetables while on a benzo but they didn't specify which benzo or which pathway it uses.

 

I'm also still really struggling with the idea that this is going to take 4 1/2 years for me to taper off of. Is there any chance I will be able to speed it up at some point?  :'(

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I was feeling so awful on 1.5 mg's of Klonopin during my taper that I updosed to 2.0 mg's. I was only on it for 6 days before I went to see my new psychiatrist. He told me to substitute the Klonopin I was on with Valium right away without any crossover. However I tried a very quick crossover per Dr. Peart's schedule which was not going well so I called my psychiatrist and updosed from 20 mg's of Valium to 30. Just yesterday I called him back and told him I wanted to switch back to the Klonopin. I have been in the ER like 6 times in the past month and a half and I'm feeling so lost and scared.

 

Yesterday I just took 1.5 mg's Klonopin but I don't know whether I should go to 2.0 for my taper or what. I worry that I've messed with my sensitive system even more and made things much more difficult than they already were. I was hoping Valium would help as it has others who have been on Klonopin for many years like myself but it didn't and I'm feeling very despondent and like I will never be able to get off of benzos. I also just recently added Neurontin which has calmed me down a little but at the same time made me feel even more spaced out/dissociated so I don't know whether to keep taking it or not. I don't know how anybody does this, I truly don't.

 

Hi Fuzzy, I wish I had some answers for you. How long did you updose for? Was it just a day or two or longer? How are you feeling now and what dose are you taking? 

 

Hugs

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SG I can't find any info on foods to avoid while taking clonazepam. I googled extensively and found nothing  The only thing I've ever read is to avoid cruciferous vegetables while on a benzo but they didn't specify which benzo or which pathway it uses.

 

I'm also still really struggling with the idea that this is going to take 4 1/2 years for me to taper off of. Is there any chance I will be able to speed it up at some point?  :'(

 

I really doubt it will take you that long.  Most tapers are less than two years and very very few go beyond three from what I see.

 

Google 'cyp450 3a4 inducers and inhibitors' and see what comes up.  Focus on 3A4, not clonazepam.

[[jr...]]

well, I am down to .0180mg on a LT. I still am having side effects like depression, tension headaches, slight anxiety, and a general feeling of unwellness. I am resolved to the fact that I may have a protracted withdrawal and wanted to ask you all if I should hold at my present dosage or continue on to zero and see what happens.

 

Honestly, I think if you taper and symptoms get no worse it will not change the time it takes to get well.  I think the added time comes in when we go too fast and create glutamate damage.  That's my belief.  If you avoid that, it should not matter time-wise whether you hold now or get off and wait at this point.

 

Thanks SG. I will continue on.

[[...]]

SG I can't find any info on foods to avoid while taking clonazepam. I googled extensively and found nothing  The only thing I've ever read is to avoid cruciferous vegetables while on a benzo but they didn't specify which benzo or which pathway it uses.

 

I'm also still really struggling with the idea that this is going to take 4 1/2 years for me to taper off of. Is there any chance I will be able to speed it up at some point?  :'(

 

I really doubt it will take you that long.  Most tapers are less than two years and very very few go beyond three from what I see.

 

Google 'cyp450 3a4 inducers and inhibitors' and see what comes up.  Focus on 3A4, not clonazepam.

 

Thanks for the google search parameters. I will look that up.

 

I've been reading the long hold thread, I think it was you who suggested that, and the extremely long taper thread. There are people on those who have been tapering for years. It is not common, as you say, but it does seem to happen.

 

My brain seems to be so sensitive right now and I've had a lot of stressors thrown on it recently that I'm going to hold for at least a month even though I've only started my taper. I will be interested to see if any of my symptoms improve or if they just continue in the same wave pattern that I've had for the past few months. It is a hard decisions as I wake with anxiety every morning and the agoraphobia has me a prisoner in my own home and so far holding has only reduced that but not gotten rid of it. The other symptoms do go away when I hold so that is good at least.

 

It was nice to read on the long hold thread that there is another person who can't seem to cut more than 2% a month or she gets hit really badly with withdrawals. Well not nice but a bit of a validation that I'm not the only one on this side of the bell curve.

 

I understand that most people taper off in two to three years. Do you think I will be able to go faster at some point or is my math off? I had some pretty bad cog fog when I calculated it and I haven't re-calculated it but I'm not even sure I did it right.

 

Thanks for all your help I really appreciate your time and experience with all of this. 

[[...]]

It is a hard decisions as I wake with anxiety every morning and the agoraphobia has me a prisoner in my own home and so far holding has only reduced that but not gotten rid of it. The other symptoms do go away when I hold so that is good at least.

 

To me, this sounds like evidence that holding may work, you may just need more time.  It can take a long time to get rid of glutamate symptoms once you have them.

 

I understand that most people taper off in two to three years. Do you think I will be able to go faster at some point or is my math off? I had some pretty bad cog fog when I calculated it and I haven't re-calculated it but I'm not even sure I did it right.

 

Some people decide to just take the slow boat and do a low-stress taper, really lengthening it out.  I think that is a great way to taper if someone has the patience.  I think if the problem is you need to get stable then it is likely you would eventually be able to go faster once you were out of the weeds.  Some do have to go ultra slow, but the odds are not with that IMO.

 

I want to be clear: I don't know what is going on with you and you may really be a case of TW, but I think it is not common and it is best to operate under the assumption that you are not until you know you are, rather than push the taper and have symptoms all the way off.

[[...]]

Well, the stone is still there.  I feel you all have a vested interest in this saga at this point so I feel compelled to post.  I got the CT scan and it showed the stone had fractured into pieces and moved down into a tube above my bladder.  There had been no pain all this time, but it was stuck there.  So I started drinking a lot of water and peeing through a screen again.  I also took a drug to dilate the tube.

 

Well, this morning wouldn't you know I passed a piece of it...about 2mm.  I'm sure that's not the end of the story, but this is really good news as the urologist said that even though I am pain free it has to come out one way or another, eventually.  If I don't pass it I will have to get another lithotripsy or even a more invasive method.  I go back for another CT in two weeks, so I have that much time to pass whatever is still there.

[[jr...]]

at least with the more invasive method , you will be out!!

[[Le...]]

SG, sending good thoughts and wishes that you can pass the rest as easily as you did this first piece.

[[ga...]]

Well, the stone is still there.  I feel you all have a vested interest in this saga at this point so I feel compelled to post.  I got the CT scan and it showed the stone had fractured into pieces and moved down into a tube above my bladder.  There had been no pain all this time, but it was stuck there.  So I started drinking a lot of water and peeing through a screen again.  I also took a drug to dilate the tube.

 

Well, this morning wouldn't you know I passed a piece of it...about 2mm.  I'm sure that's not the end of the story, but this is really good news as the urologist said that even though I am pain free it has to come out one way or another, eventually.  If I don't pass it I will have to get another lithotripsy or even a more invasive method.  I go back for another CT in two weeks, so I have that much time to pass whatever is still there.

 

Man, what a bummer, but at least the found it! I don't suppose they know how many of the darn things you still have in you? Meanwhile, water, water, water!

 

Gard