Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[Guest [ba...]]

Ativan (and many other benzos) are not soluble in water.  If you mix a pill with water and shake hard enough, you'll obtain some kind of suspension (probably not a very stable one).  Some medicine may be lost on the sides of containers since the polarity of the container may look more favorable to the benzo than the water does.  I'd anticipate some loss in dose doing it this way, but if you start doing this way, it will probably work as long as you always do it the same exact way.

 

Adding alcohol or PG will actually dissolve the benzo (although it may not dissolve the inert ingredients in the pill).  If you mix the crushed pill well, you can be pretty sure that the medicine is evenly distributed in the alcohol or PG.  When you add water back to the alcohol or PG, you probably pass the solubility limit of your benzo in that particular water/alcohol or water/PG mix.  But at least you'll have created a more stable suspension - one with smaller particles.  So in theory, you could make some extra and use it later.  How long it can be stored?  I don't know, but there are people here who make it several days in advance (maybe even a week). 

[[...]]

I'm trying to decide whether it's necessary to dissolve .5 mg of Ativan in a little PG before adding water to get 120 ml of solution instead of water only. Builder says pg, yahoo benzo group titration schedules only mention water, and I found this article about propylene glycol toxicity in ICU patients who were receiving benzos in PG.  Seems like water should be fine if I'm taking the dose right away and not storing it.  ??  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16162774  How many of you only use water for either Ativan or Valium.  I eventually have to taper Valium, too.

 

The water method can be made to work, but alcohol or PG give the big advantage of creating a solution.  The amount of PG used is tiny and PG is a food additive that is in many food products and medicines.  If PG bothers you, why not use alcohol?

[[bu...]]

Just to confirm what others are telling you...

 

Your benzo is  almost insoluble ( or poorly soluble) in water.

 

PG is classified as "generally recognized as safe" and is widely used in many food and personal care products (like toothpaste) that you currently use.  It's also used in several Rx grade liquid benzos  (and hundreds of other liquid meds) .  And if you dissolve .5mg in 1ml PG, how "toxic" do really think 1ml will be?  Probably much less toxic than the benzo you're already taking.

 

Just a question/suggestion...why do you want to do a .5mg=120ml solution?  If you dissolve .5 in 50ml, then you have a simple 1mg per ml liquid.

 

 

 

 

 

[[ga...]]

Ativan (and many other benzos) are not soluble in water.  If you mix a pill with water and shake hard enough, you'll obtain some kind of suspension (probably not a very stable one).  Some medicine may be lost on the sides of containers since the polarity of the container may look more favorable to the benzo than the water does.  I'd anticipate some loss in dose doing it this way, but if you start doing this way, it will probably work as long as you always do it the same exact way.

 

Adding alcohol or PG will actually dissolve the benzo (although it may not dissolve the inert ingredients in the pill).  If you mix the crushed pill well, you can be pretty sure that the medicine is evenly distributed in the alcohol or PG.  When you add water back to the alcohol or PG, you probably pass the solubility limit of your benzo in that particular water/alcohol or water/PG mix.  But at least you'll have created a more stable suspension - one with smaller particles.  So in theory, you could make some extra and use it later.  How long it can be stored?  I don't know, but there are people here who make it several days in advance (maybe even a week).

 

Are you saying that when I dissolve my benzo in alcohol, I have a solution but when I add water to the solution I now have a suspension?

[[...]]

Just to confirm what others are telling you...

 

Your benzo is  almost insoluble ( or poorly soluble) in water.

 

PG is classified as "generally recognized as safe" and is widely used in many food and personal care products (like toothpaste) that you currently use.  It's also used in several Rx grade liquid benzos  (and hundreds of other liquid meds) .  And if you dissolve .5mg in 1ml PG, how "toxic" do really think 1ml will be?  Probably much less toxic than the benzo you're already taking.

 

Just a question/suggestion...why do you want to do a .5mg=120ml solution?  If you dissolve .5 in 50ml, then you have a simple 1mg per ml liquid.

 

LOL, because my brain doesn't work like everyone else's?  I want to spread the .5 mg over a 4 month period and in my mind if I dissolve it in the 120ml I just have to discard 1ml more each day.  It also sort of matched the medium rate of taper for .5 mg Ativan on the Yahoo Benzo Group water titration chart so made sense to me.  I'm not familiar at all with propylene glycol and I'm not afraid of it, I was just trying to get other opinions. And I use baking soda to brush my teeth.   Thanks for all your suggestions, everyone!

[[...]]

Ativan (and many other benzos) are not soluble in water.  If you mix a pill with water and shake hard enough, you'll obtain some kind of suspension (probably not a very stable one).  Some medicine may be lost on the sides of containers since the polarity of the container may look more favorable to the benzo than the water does.  I'd anticipate some loss in dose doing it this way, but if you start doing this way, it will probably work as long as you always do it the same exact way.

 

Adding alcohol or PG will actually dissolve the benzo (although it may not dissolve the inert ingredients in the pill).  If you mix the crushed pill well, you can be pretty sure that the medicine is evenly distributed in the alcohol or PG.  When you add water back to the alcohol or PG, you probably pass the solubility limit of your benzo in that particular water/alcohol or water/PG mix.  But at least you'll have created a more stable suspension - one with smaller particles.  So in theory, you could make some extra and use it later.  How long it can be stored?  I don't know, but there are people here who make it several days in advance (maybe even a week).

 

Are you saying that when I dissolve my benzo in alcohol, I have a solution but when I add water to the solution I now have a suspension?

 

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing.

[[bu...]]

Ativan (and many other benzos) are not soluble in water.  If you mix a pill with water and shake hard enough, you'll obtain some kind of suspension (probably not a very stable one).  Some medicine may be lost on the sides of containers since the polarity of the container may look more favorable to the benzo than the water does.  I'd anticipate some loss in dose doing it this way, but if you start doing this way, it will probably work as long as you always do it the same exact way.

 

Adding alcohol or PG will actually dissolve the benzo (although it may not dissolve the inert ingredients in the pill).  If you mix the crushed pill well, you can be pretty sure that the medicine is evenly distributed in the alcohol or PG.  When you add water back to the alcohol or PG, you probably pass the solubility limit of your benzo in that particular water/alcohol or water/PG mix.  But at least you'll have created a more stable suspension - one with smaller particles.  So in theory, you could make some extra and use it later.  How long it can be stored?  I don't know, but there are people here who make it several days in advance (maybe even a week).

 

Are you saying that when I dissolve my benzo in alcohol, I have a solution but when I add water to the solution I now have a suspension?

 

 

No, you dissolve your benzo in alcohol (or any suitable solvent), and it makes a solution.  Once the benzo has gone into solution, that solution can then be diluted with water and it becomes a dilute solution.

[[sh...]]

Ativan (and many other benzos) are not soluble in water.  If you mix a pill with water and shake hard enough, you'll obtain some kind of suspension (probably not a very stable one).  Some medicine may be lost on the sides of containers since the polarity of the container may look more favorable to the benzo than the water does.  I'd anticipate some loss in dose doing it this way, but if you start doing this way, it will probably work as long as you always do it the same exact way.

 

Adding alcohol or PG will actually dissolve the benzo (although it may not dissolve the inert ingredients in the pill).  If you mix the crushed pill well, you can be pretty sure that the medicine is evenly distributed in the alcohol or PG.  When you add water back to the alcohol or PG, you probably pass the solubility limit of your benzo in that particular water/alcohol or water/PG mix.  But at least you'll have created a more stable suspension - one with smaller particles.  So in theory, you could make some extra and use it later.  How long it can be stored?  I don't know, but there are people here who make it several days in advance (maybe even a week).

 

Are you saying that when I dissolve my benzo in alcohol, I have a solution but when I add water to the solution I now have a suspension?

 

 

No, you dissolve your benzo in alcohol (or any suitable solvent), and it makes a solution.  Once the benzo has gone into solution, that solution can then be diluted with water and it becomes a dilute solution.

 

[[ga...]]

Ativan (and many other benzos) are not soluble in water.  If you mix a pill with water and shake hard enough, you'll obtain some kind of suspension (probably not a very stable one).  Some medicine may be lost on the sides of containers since the polarity of the container may look more favorable to the benzo than the water does.  I'd anticipate some loss in dose doing it this way, but if you start doing this way, it will probably work as long as you always do it the same exact way.

 

Adding alcohol or PG will actually dissolve the benzo (although it may not dissolve the inert ingredients in the pill).  If you mix the crushed pill well, you can be pretty sure that the medicine is evenly distributed in the alcohol or PG.  When you add water back to the alcohol or PG, you probably pass the solubility limit of your benzo in that particular water/alcohol or water/PG mix.  But at least you'll have created a more stable suspension - one with smaller particles.  So in theory, you could make some extra and use it later.  How long it can be stored?  I don't know, but there are people here who make it several days in advance (maybe even a week).

 

Are you saying that when I dissolve my benzo in alcohol, I have a solution but when I add water to the solution I now have a suspension?

 

 

No, you dissolve your benzo in alcohol (or any suitable solvent), and it makes a solution.  Once the benzo has gone into solution, that solution can then be diluted with water and it becomes a dilute solution.

 

Thank you. That's what I thought.

 

 

[[Ul...]]

Just to confirm what others are telling you...

 

Your benzo is  almost insoluble ( or poorly soluble) in water.

 

PG is classified as "generally recognized as safe" and is widely used in many food and personal care products (like toothpaste) that you currently use.  It's also used in several Rx grade liquid benzos  (and hundreds of other liquid meds) .  And if you dissolve .5mg in 1ml PG, how "toxic" do really think 1ml will be?  Probably much less toxic than the benzo you're already taking.

 

Just a question/suggestion...why do you want to do a .5mg=120ml solution?  If you dissolve .5 in 50ml, then you have a simple 1mg per ml liquid.

 

Builder, you and I both know that I'm the last person in all of humanity to do ANY kind of benzo math, so truly ignore my stupidity here: If he dissolves .5mg in 50ml, then would 1ml be .01mg?? As usual, please help me with my math. Thanks!

 

Jeff

[[bu...]]

Just to confirm what others are telling you...

 

Your benzo is  almost insoluble ( or poorly soluble) in water.

 

PG is classified as "generally recognized as safe" and is widely used in many food and personal care products (like toothpaste) that you currently use.  It's also used in several Rx grade liquid benzos  (and hundreds of other liquid meds) .  And if you dissolve .5mg in 1ml PG, how "toxic" do really think 1ml will be?  Probably much less toxic than the benzo you're already taking.

 

Just a question/suggestion...why do you want to do a .5mg=120ml solution?  If you dissolve .5 in 50ml, then you have a simple 1mg per ml liquid.

 

LOL, because my brain doesn't work like everyone else's?  I want to spread the .5 mg over a 4 month period and in my mind if I dissolve it in the 120ml I just have to discard 1ml more each day.   It also sort of matched the medium rate of taper for .5 mg Ativan on the Yahoo Benzo Group water titration chart so made sense to me.  I'm not familiar at all with propylene glycol and I'm not afraid of it, I was just trying to get other opinions. And I use baking soda to brush my teeth.   Thanks for all your suggestions, everyone!

 

...or you could just take 1ml less each day. 

 

I'm a firm believer in everyone doing a taper protocol they believe in, but the whole "pull and discard X amount each day" seems silly to me.  Why not just go to your liquid med and take out the amount you need for your dose, and just take that?

 

If your doc gave you a scrip for a liquid med and said "take 4 tsps/day for a week, then 3 tsps/day for week, then 2 tsps/day for a week, etc, isn't that what you would do?  I think you just use the amount you need each day.

 

My comment is a criticism of pull and discard method, NOT a criticism of you.  And if that's the method you want to use, that's fine.  Just doesn't make any sense to me.

[[...]]

Not to be contrary, but I think the benzo goes into solution in the alcohol or PG and remains in solution in the new mix  (which is essentially water) ONLY if the benzo concentration in the water is below water's solubility limit. If it goes above the limit the part above the limit will come back out and suspend as Bad described. This is why I think it is important to use plenty of water  (to ensure there is enough water to keep the benzo dissolve). I get nervous when any PG or alcohol water liquid goes above .01mg/ml.

[[Ul...]]

Not to be contrary, but I think the benzo goes into solution in the alcohol or PG and remains in solution in the new mix  (which is essentially water) ONLY if the benzo concentration in the water is below water's solubility limit. If it goes above the limit the part above the limit will come back out and suspend as Bad described. This is why I think it is important to use plenty of water  (to ensure there is enough water to keep the benzo dissolve). I get nervous when any PG or alcohol water liquid goes above .01mg/ml.

 

Hey SG. I just want to check in about something. I THINK you told me a long, long time ago to dissolve my two 1mg K tablets in 6ml of 100 proof vodka (3ml for each 1mg tablet) and then add 194ml of water to get a 200ml solution (or whatever it's called). Does that sound about right? Am I allowing enough of each (water and vodka) to dissolve correctly and efficiently?

 

Your suggestions/thoughts would be appreciated. Glad you're feeling better!!!!!!!!!!!!! Damn kidney stones 

 

Jeff

[[...]]

Not to be contrary, but I think the benzo goes into solution in the alcohol or PG and remains in solution in the new mix  (which is essentially water) ONLY if the benzo concentration in the water is below water's solubility limit. If it goes above the limit the part above the limit will come back out and suspend as Bad described. This is why I think it is important to use plenty of water  (to ensure there is enough water to keep the benzo dissolve). I get nervous when any PG or alcohol water liquid goes above .01mg/ml.

 

Hey SG. I just want to check in about something. I THINK you told me a long, long time ago to dissolve my two 1mg K tablets in 6ml of 100 proof vodka (3ml for each 1mg tablet) and then add 194ml of water to get a 200ml solution (or whatever it's called). Does that sound about right? Am I allowing enough of each (water and vodka) to dissolve correctly and efficiently?

 

Your suggestions/thoughts would be appreciated. Glad you're feeling better!!!!!!!!!!!!! Damn kidney stones 

 

Jeff

 

The anesthesia from the surgery seems to have set me back.  My benzo symptoms have been abnormally strong the last few days.  It has been rough, but they hopefully are calming down as today was tolerable and more near my normal.  Always something.  I just can't win with this illness.  I've been symptomatic for 75 months.  I don't need this.  The lithotripsy itself was a huge success.  It seems to have vaporized the stone...nothing in the pee screen at all.

 

That sounds like a good mix.  3ml is plenty to dissolve 1mg K and 200ml would make a final liquid strength of .01mg/ml, which is usually where I set all of them, no matter the benzo.

[[...]]

Just to confirm what others are telling you...

 

Your benzo is  almost insoluble ( or poorly soluble) in water.

 

PG is classified as "generally recognized as safe" and is widely used in many food and personal care products (like toothpaste) that you currently use.  It's also used in several Rx grade liquid benzos  (and hundreds of other liquid meds) .  And if you dissolve .5mg in 1ml PG, how "toxic" do really think 1ml will be?  Probably much less toxic than the benzo you're already taking.

 

Just a question/suggestion...why do you want to do a .5mg=120ml solution?  If you dissolve .5 in 50ml, then you have a simple 1mg per ml liquid.

 

LOL, because my brain doesn't work like everyone else's?  I want to spread the .5 mg over a 4 month period and in my mind if I dissolve it in the 120ml I just have to discard 1ml more each day.   It also sort of matched the medium rate of taper for .5 mg Ativan on the Yahoo Benzo Group water titration chart so made sense to me.  I'm not familiar at all with propylene glycol and I'm not afraid of it, I was just trying to get other opinions. And I use baking soda to brush my teeth.   Thanks for all your suggestions, everyone!

 

...or you could just take 1ml less each day. 

 

I'm a firm believer in everyone doing a taper protocol they believe in, but the whole "pull and discard X amount each day" seems silly to me.  Why not just go to your liquid med and take out the amount you need for your dose, and just take that?

 

If your doc gave you a scrip for a liquid med and said "take 4 tsps/day for a week, then 3 tsps/day for week, then 2 tsps/day for a week, etc, isn't that what you would do?  I think you just use the amount you need each day.

 

My comment is a criticism of pull and discard method, NOT a criticism of you.  And if that's the method you want to use, that's fine.  Just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

Maybe I'll do the math and give it a try your way.  I do understand what you're saying. 

[[Ul...]]

Not to be contrary, but I think the benzo goes into solution in the alcohol or PG and remains in solution in the new mix  (which is essentially water) ONLY if the benzo concentration in the water is below water's solubility limit. If it goes above the limit the part above the limit will come back out and suspend as Bad described. This is why I think it is important to use plenty of water  (to ensure there is enough water to keep the benzo dissolve). I get nervous when any PG or alcohol water liquid goes above .01mg/ml.

 

Hey SG. I just want to check in about something. I THINK you told me a long, long time ago to dissolve my two 1mg K tablets in 6ml of 100 proof vodka (3ml for each 1mg tablet) and then add 194ml of water to get a 200ml solution (or whatever it's called). Does that sound about right? Am I allowing enough of each (water and vodka) to dissolve correctly and efficiently?

 

Your suggestions/thoughts would be appreciated. Glad you're feeling better!!!!!!!!!!!!! Damn kidney stones 

 

Jeff

 

The anesthesia from the surgery seems to have set me back.  My benzo symptoms have been abnormally strong the last few days.  It has been rough, but they hopefully are calming down as today was tolerable and more near my normal.  Always something.  I just can't win with this illness.  I've been symptomatic for 75 months.  I don't need this.  The lithotripsy itself was a huge success.  It seems to have vaporized the stone...nothing in the pee screen at all.

 

That sounds like a good mix.  3ml is plenty to dissolve 1mg K and 200ml would make a final liquid strength of .01mg/ml, which is usually where I set all of them, no matter the benzo.

 

Thanks for the info, SG!!! And, buddy, you've been through massive amounts of hell, but I pray with every fiber of my being that your symptoms evaporate from your body and mind and go join ISIS or something. Like they say, "if you're in hell...keep going!". You offer a lot of inspiration and bright knowledge from your experiences. I know it's a bummer, but I thank you!! Hang on tight, super star!

 

Jeff

[[ga...]]

Not to be contrary, but I think the benzo goes into solution in the alcohol or PG and remains in solution in the new mix  (which is essentially water) ONLY if the benzo concentration in the water is below water's solubility limit. If it goes above the limit the part above the limit will come back out and suspend as Bad described. This is why I think it is important to use plenty of water  (to ensure there is enough water to keep the benzo dissolve). I get nervous when any PG or alcohol water liquid goes above .01mg/ml.

 

Oh gosh, now I'm even more confused! I thought Bad was saying too much water is a problem. But you're saying too little water is a problem? Methinks my brain is probably the problem!

[[ga...]]

Not to be contrary, but I think the benzo goes into solution in the alcohol or PG and remains in solution in the new mix  (which is essentially water) ONLY if the benzo concentration in the water is below water's solubility limit. If it goes above the limit the part above the limit will come back out and suspend as Bad described. This is why I think it is important to use plenty of water  (to ensure there is enough water to keep the benzo dissolve). I get nervous when any PG or alcohol water liquid goes above .01mg/ml.

 

Hey SG. I just want to check in about something. I THINK you told me a long, long time ago to dissolve my two 1mg K tablets in 6ml of 100 proof vodka (3ml for each 1mg tablet) and then add 194ml of water to get a 200ml solution (or whatever it's called). Does that sound about right? Am I allowing enough of each (water and vodka) to dissolve correctly and efficiently?

 

Your suggestions/thoughts would be appreciated. Glad you're feeling better!!!!!!!!!!!!! Damn kidney stones 

 

Jeff

 

The anesthesia from the surgery seems to have set me back.  My benzo symptoms have been abnormally strong the last few days.  It has been rough, but they hopefully are calming down as today was tolerable and more near my normal.  Always something.  I just can't win with this illness.  I've been symptomatic for 75 months.  I don't need this.  The lithotripsy itself was a huge success.  It seems to have vaporized the stone...nothing in the pee screen at all.

 

That sounds like a good mix.  3ml is plenty to dissolve 1mg K and 200ml would make a final liquid strength of .01mg/ml, which is usually where I set all of them, no matter the benzo.

 

I'm really sorry about the anesthesia, SG.

[Guest [ba...]]

Not to be contrary, but I think the benzo goes into solution in the alcohol or PG and remains in solution in the new mix  (which is essentially water) ONLY if the benzo concentration in the water is below water's solubility limit. If it goes above the limit the part above the limit will come back out and suspend as Bad described. This is why I think it is important to use plenty of water  (to ensure there is enough water to keep the benzo dissolve). I get nervous when any PG or alcohol water liquid goes above .01mg/ml.

 

Oh gosh, now I'm even more confused! I thought Bad was saying too much water is a problem. But you're saying too little water is a problem? Methinks my brain is probably the problem!

 

Don't be confused.  Mostly, we're just splitting hairs.  Do what works.

[[bu...]]

 

 

 

Don't be confused. Mostly, we're just splitting hairs.  Do what works.

 

[[...]]

 

 

 

Don't be confused. Mostly, we're just splitting hairs.  Do what works.

 

 

[[...]]

The anesthesia from the surgery seems to have set me back.  My benzo symptoms have been abnormally strong the last few days.  It has been rough, but they hopefully are calming down as today was tolerable and more near my normal.  Always something.  I just can't win with this illness.  I've been symptomatic for 75 months.  I don't need this.  The lithotripsy itself was a huge success.  It seems to have vaporized the stone...nothing in the pee screen at all.

 

That sounds like a good mix.  3ml is plenty to dissolve 1mg K and 200ml would make a final liquid strength of .01mg/ml, which is usually where I set all of them, no matter the benzo.

I'm really sorry about the anesthesia, SG.

 

My symptom pattern the last two days has been more like my old normal so I am optimistic the anesthesia just stirred things up temporarily.  My worry was it might be a setback of months or (gulp) years, as they were reminiscent of years ago.  That would have been hard to swallow.

[[Ma...]]

[[ga...]]

The anesthesia from the surgery seems to have set me back.  My benzo symptoms have been abnormally strong the last few days.  It has been rough, but they hopefully are calming down as today was tolerable and more near my normal.  Always something.  I just can't win with this illness.  I've been symptomatic for 75 months.  I don't need this.  The lithotripsy itself was a huge success.  It seems to have vaporized the stone...nothing in the pee screen at all.

 

That sounds like a good mix.  3ml is plenty to dissolve 1mg K and 200ml would make a final liquid strength of .01mg/ml, which is usually where I set all of them, no matter the benzo.

I'm really sorry about the anesthesia, SG.

 

My symptom pattern the last two days has been more like my old normal so I am optimistic the anesthesia just stirred things up temporarily.  My worry was it might be a setback of months or (gulp) years, as they were reminiscent of years ago.  That would have been hard to swallow.

 

Glad to hear you've turned the corner already, back to your "normal" w/d. I think that's a good sign.

But I sure understand the worry! Sometimes you think you just can't take any more when you get hit with old stuff you thought was long gone.

[[ga...]]

Wishing you all a Window-ful Thanksgiving....or, at the very least, some moments of peace and gratitude and lots of pie!

(I am way past roasting a turkey. It is Pie Day for us.)

 

Gard