Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[ga...]]

A question about taking it slow. When I'm stabilized my main symptoms are neuropathic pain in my foot or feet and sometimes minor twitches in my legs. Are those symptoms where you guys who believe in slow tapers would still hold?

StephenD,

 

I have bouts of horrible neuropathic pain all over. Brings me to my knees. But now I have more windows. Also have twitches (a fairly new symptom) and anxiety/agoraphobia (as usual). Again, more windows than before my hold. I did a 9-month hold. Improved a lot. Dissolved my capsules and crashed big time. Held a bit more. So now I am doing my "chicken taper." Just started Sunday. I make one MT size cut and wait a week to see if my symptoms get worse. If not, maybe do it again? Tapering that slowly is a psychological thing. I was scared to start tapering again. All that dissolving and mixing and measuring makes me anxious, and I have to do it every day with L. Not sure where this is going, but wherever, it's not going very fast! But I am technically tapering.

 

Each person has to decide for themselves the cost:benefit ratio. Some would hold. Some would move forward. Some would crawl like a snail. I kind of like the snail approach. Also known as the chicken or chicken-turtle or the will-Gard-ever-make-up-her-mind? taper. 

 

Gard

[[ga...]]

I should add that I was prone to neuropathy before this taper started, so I don't think most people will end up in as bad a place as I did regarding neuropathy.

[[Ul...]]

SG,

 

I am so sorry about your kidney stones. I have been there. The first time was over 10 years ago and I thought I was dying. It's the worst pain but it will pass for good. I have had to take pain killers for my kidneys for a month at a time and not had any physical dependence. Dilaudid can cause some stomach/digestive issues but you will be fine. I am sending you lots and love and light. I hope you feel better ASAP!

 

Hi Gard and Jeff 

 

Howdy, Miss Maya!!! Hugs to you...and SG too. Well, in a masculine way, SG 

 

Jeff

[[Ul...]]

CHEMIST or SMART PERSON without cog fog needed!

 

I continue to struggle with symptoms since I dissolved my L and wonder if mixing up my L a day ahead is actually  OK. I am pretty sure that the answer is somewhere in this article. It seems to be a very thorough study of L in solution, but I don't understand all of the points it is making. Would anyone care to explain how this relates to me? I have been on L for nearly a year and am trying to again to liquid titrate off after a 9-month hold.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2813522/

 

Previously I did liquid titration but it only required dissolving 1/3 of my dose. I remember it was a miserable time but not much else. I don't think the neuropathy was a bad its it is now and all I've done is dissolve. Now I must dissolve 1/2 of my dose. Eventually I will have to dissolve my whole dose. Each evening my daughter helps me do my measuring and dissolving for the next day. She puts my morning dose next to my bed (1 capsule of L and 1 bottle of liquid L and extra water for rinsing) because I am in such a Seroquel fog in the morning it needs to be right there. The other two doses I take at 2PM and 10PM, so they sit around longer. Everything is at room temperature.

 

Hope that made sense.

 

Thank you!

 

Gard

Hi gard. The researchers indicated that the results of the study should be "interpreted with caution" meaning the results were not consistent. It did mention some degradation of the ratio of CDP (Librium) and doxepam when made into a solution but I wouldn't think you need to worry too much as it states that rapidly was 9 days.  --V

 

OK, so V is claiming to be smart and have a working brain. But he talks to chickens. Hmmmmm....

 

(I know V from Long Hold and would never say that to a stranger! Probably.)

 

So if rapidly is 9 days, then 1 day is safe. Good. Did you happen to understand a thing they said about temperature or ph or anything like that? Thanks!!

 

Gard

Yes. The temperature was kept stable (room temp). The gist of the article had to do with the degradation of Librium (CDP) into doxepam when made into a solution. They were focused on using it in pumps in a hospital setting. They felt that CDP had more anxiolytics effects than doxepam but it took 9 days to degrade to doxepam. Because they weren't sure of the ratio of doxepam to CDP, they recommended using Valium as a solution in the pumps.

 

P.S. You were supposed to keep quiet about my talking to chickens.  --V

 

OK. I will never mention that you TALK TO CHICKENS!   (And you won't mention that I'm tapering a whopping 1%/month.)

 

I see. If I had known then what I know now about Librium, I would have risked the Valium. Too late now. Onward!

 

Gard

 

One percent a month??!!! Heck, Gard, I'd be happy to taper 1% every THREE months!! Bless your loving heart. You're doing great, ma'am 

 

Jeff

 

Jeff

[[ga...]]

 

One percent a month??!!! Heck, Gard, I'd be happy to taper 1% every THREE months!! Bless your loving heart. You're doing great, ma'am 

 

Jeff

 

Jeff

 

Aww, thanks, Jeff.

 

Go ahead and try 1% every 3 months. You never know! It could work! We could have a who's-the-slowest contest.

Unless it means you would have to DISSOLVE to practically stand still. Aaaaagh! (faint)

 

Gard

[[bu...]]

A question about taking it slow. When I'm stabilized my main symptoms are neuropathic pain in my foot or feet and sometimes minor twitches in my legs. Are those symptoms where you guys who believe in slow tapers would still hold?

 

Builder, did you see this question? How would you proceed if you were me?

  Sadly, there are very few symptom-free tapers, although most of us can keep our sxs tolerable.

 

Muscle twitches are very common, but the're really no big deal.  I had twitches in my eyelid, my hand, and my legs just above the knee.  Like I said, no big deal.  I certainly would NOT adjust or hold my taper because of muscle twitches.

 

I guess you'll have to decide how severe the pain is.  I did have pain in my chest and shoulder.  The pain was not significant, but the location worried me.  My doc confirmed there were no cardio issues, and gave me scrip for Lyrica.  After about a week on Lyrica, I decided I preferred the pain.  The pain, of course, was psychosomatic.  (NOTE:  Psychosomatic does NOT  mean imaginary)

 

WD sxs are temporary, and for almost everyone, will subside when you are off the benzo.  IMO, if your pain (or other sxs) is not intolerable or disabling, I would continue with the taper.

 

 

[[ed...]]

I agree with builder, twitches are nothing but a nuisance--if that. I've become so comfortable with mine that I've named them. 

 

Also, so long as the pain isn't overwhelming and you are feeling stable (stable doesn't mean sx free), I'd carry on.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Best,

Ed

[[an...]]

(And you won't mention that I'm tapering a whopping 1%/month.)

 

 

Hey...whatever works! 

 

Now watch me try to rationalize this to StephenD....

 

Hi Gard,

 

In the paper, the experiments were done at physiological temperature of 37 C or 98.6 F.  That is much higher than room temperature.  It seems that at lower temperatures, the hydrolysis is not significant at all.  It is true that the experiments were done over an 8 or 9 day period.  From what I have read in both this article and others, I think that the L should be fine in water for a full day.  Very little hydrolysis should take place according to the study.  As for pH, I don't remember what they adjusted the pH to, but again, I would not worry about it.  I remember reading somewhere else that at a pH of 2.5 the drug was most stable, but that was a different study.  Now, if you were making a batch for several days, then I think the hydrolysis would be a problem.

 

Just my two cents.

Anne 

[[ga...]]

(And you won't mention that I'm tapering a whopping 1%/month.)

 

 

Hey...whatever works! 

 

Now watch me try to rationalize this to StephenD....

 

Hi Gard,

 

In the paper, the experiments were done at physiological temperature of 37 C or 98.6 F.  That is much higher than room temperature.  It seems that at lower temperatures, the hydrolysis is not significant at all.  It is true that the experiments were done over an 8 or 9 day period.  From what I have read in both this article and others, I think that the L should be fine in water for a full day.  Very little hydrolysis should take place according to the study.  As for pH, I don't remember what they adjusted the pH to, but again, I would not worry about it.  I remember reading somewhere else that at a pH of 2.5 the drug was most stable, but that was a different study.  Now, if you were making a batch for several days, then I think the hydrolysis would be a problem.

 

Just my two cents.

Anne 

 

Thanks, Anne! 

[[St...]]

Yeah, I mean obviously I've tapered for a while and had neuropathic pain for a while. So my questions come in the context of the earlier conversation about waiting to taper until symptoms are low. Can't remember if that was in this thread or another thread. I thought it was this one.

[[bu...]]

Yeah, I mean obviously I've tapered for a while and had neuropathic pain for a while. So my questions come in the context of the earlier conversation about waiting to taper until symptoms are low. Can't remember if that was in this thread or another thread. I thought it was this one.

 

As a generalization, you should begin, or continue, tapering when you are stable.  Stable is NOT a qualitative measure. It does not mean good, or asymtomatic.  The medical definition of stable is the same as the conventional definition...steady, unchanging, consistent, etc.

[[Pl...]]

Hello Builder..I was hoping you could help me.....

 

Haven't had time to recently read this thread but I know SG right now needs to focus on his own health at the moment ( I  pray and hope he is doing well or better)

 

My question is that I recently switched from liquid to solid pills and the difference is very strong.... It feels as though for 6 months I was extremely under dosed on the liquid and I feel the difference and now I feel the very very strong effects....

 

1)Is this normal?

 

2) I can't believe the difference...it feels so strong and powerful compared to the liquid.. Will it take time to adjust?  I've been experiencing a little more dizziness, nausea, very heavy sedation etc...

 

3) could being under dosed for 6 months on the liquid have hurt or harm me even more?

 

4) logically it would make sense if I'm this over sedated to go down not up , correct? I can't imagine being this groggy and drunk all day long....

 

5) can someone please double check these calculations as I am new to the scale and thinking in terms of grams....etc....:

 

I am currently on .92 mg of kolonopin which I dose 3xs a day.... That currently comes out  to  .312 total grams for the day......

 

so for each dose I weigh out .104 grams for the day ... So 104 grams x 3 equals 312 grams which equals .92 mgs. for the day.....

 

6) are these calculations correct? 

 

I feel so extremely overdosed and sedated but I think its just the switch to pills...(and also that this dose is too high for me anyway). it really scares me the feeling... Like a zombie...But I think the liquid was my problem all along....

 

Sorry for all the laborious questions..  ( mostly concerned with question #5- just need to make sure calculations are correct)

 

I just need to make sure I'm  understanding  things right..

 

Btw... I feel All in all that the pills are a better fit for me.... the liquid didnt work for me...

 

your thoughts and answers on the above situation would be very appreciated....

 

Thank you kindly....

 

Bump please

 

Describe how you liquified your K, and how you took it.

 

I dissolved (2) .50 pills in 100 ml of whole fat milk... I would let it dissolve overnight put in fridge..... I would pull out whatever I didnt need......would shake a few times here and there.... Used 1 ml and 10 ml syringes.... I could barely reduce....

 

Divided that up into 3 tiny mason jars a day for my 3 doses....taken at 10:00am, 5:00 pm and 1:00 am,.,

 

the day I switched I felt sicker and never felt right... almost like a huge reduction.... It was horrific .... Getting worse and worse....especially the first hour after I dosed.... All sxs increased....I let this go on for months...

 

Now my third day on the pills there is a huge difference.... ( still symptomatic but better).... Its as if I am calmer and  i am actually getting the drug....( it is too sedating for me ; dosage too high but that is because of my own individual biochemistry) and being a lightweight/ hypersensitive...

 

Thank you builder for your time in reading...

 

Bump please

 

Please look at number 5 in original post if you can...thank you kindly

 

[[...]]

Gard - I use a scale to weigh out my Librium.  It's super easy bc it's a powder already. Never tried liquefying it....I figured why mess with it if I don't have to. Just a thought.

[[jr...]]

.55ml x .01 =.0055 x 5(doses) = .0275mg X per day

 

.0275 / 1.75(original dose)=99.98% reduction

 

I still have to take 5/325 hydrocodone to mask over the sxs.

 

Am I doing something wrong???

[Guest [ba...]]

.55ml x .01 =.0055 x 5(doses) = .0275mg X per day

 

.0275 / 1.75(original dose)=99.98% reduction

 

I still have to take 5/325 hydrocodone to mask over the sxs.

 

Am I doing something wrong???

 

Minor math glitch...        1 - (0.0275 / 1.75) = .9843 = 98.43%

 

You're getting really close.  When are you going to jump?

[[Pl...]]

Hello Builder..I was hoping you could help me.....

 

Haven't had time to recently read this thread but I know SG right now needs to focus on his own health at the moment ( I  pray and hope he is doing well or better)

 

My question is that I recently switched from liquid to solid pills and the difference is very strong.... It feels as though for 6 months I was extremely under dosed on the liquid and I feel the difference and now I feel the very very strong effects....

 

1)Is this normal?

 

2) I can't believe the difference...it feels so strong and powerful compared to the liquid.. Will it take time to adjust?  I've been experiencing a little more dizziness, nausea, very heavy sedation etc...

 

3) could being under dosed for 6 months on the liquid have hurt or harm me even more?

 

4) logically it would make sense if I'm this over sedated to go down not up , correct? I can't imagine being this groggy and drunk all day long....

 

5) can someone please double check these calculations as I am new to the scale and thinking in terms of grams....etc....:

 

I am currently on .92 mg of kolonopin which I dose 3xs a day.... That currently comes out  to  .312 total grams for the day......

 

so for each dose I weigh out .104 grams for the day ... So 104 grams x 3 equals 312 grams which equals .92 mgs. for the day.....

 

6) are these calculations correct? 

 

I feel so extremely overdosed and sedated but I think its just the switch to pills...(and also that this dose is too high for me anyway). it really scares me the feeling... Like a zombie...But I think the liquid was my problem all along....

 

Sorry for all the laborious questions..  ( mostly concerned with question #5- just need to make sure calculations are correct)

 

I just need to make sure I'm  understanding  things right..

 

Btw... I feel All in all that the pills are a better fit for me.... the liquid didnt work for me...

 

your thoughts and answers on the above situation would be very appreciated....

 

Thank you kindly....

 

Bump please

 

Describe how you liquified your K, and how you took it.

 

I dissolved (2) .50 pills in 100 ml of whole fat milk... I would let it dissolve overnight put in fridge..... I would pull out whatever I didnt need......would shake a few times here and there.... Used 1 ml and 10 ml syringes.... I could barely reduce....

 

Divided that up into 3 tiny mason jars a day for my 3 doses....taken at 10:00am, 5:00 pm and 1:00 am,.,

 

the day I switched I felt sicker and never felt right... almost like a huge reduction.... It was horrific .... Getting worse and worse....especially the first hour after I dosed.... All sxs increased....I let this go on for months...

 

Now my third day on the pills there is a huge difference.... ( still symptomatic but better).... Its as if I am calmer and  i am actually getting the drug....( it is too sedating for me ; dosage too high but that is because of my own individual biochemistry) and being a lightweight/ hypersensitive...

 

Thank you builder for your time in reading...

 

Bump please

 

Please look at number 5 in original post if you can...thank you kindly

 

Badsocref.... If you are able, can you double check the calculations of my question in #5....above.... I'm not sure who else to ask and I think builder just didnt have a chance to get to me....

 

I just need to know ASAP since I started this already...... Thank you all so very much!!!!!

[[jr...]]

.55ml x .01 =.0055 x 5(doses) = .0275mg X per day

 

.0275 / 1.75(original dose)=99.98% reduction

 

I still have to take 5/325 hydrocodone to mask over the sxs.

 

Am I doing something wrong???

 

Minor math glitch...        1 - (0.0275 / 1.75) = .9843 = 98.43%

 

You're getting really close.  When are you going to jump?

 

2 months maybe. I still have bad sxs

 

[[bu...]]

 

 

 

 

 

"I am currently on .92 mg of kolonopin which I dose 3xs a day.... That currently comes out  to  .312 total grams for the day......

 

so for each dose I weigh out .104 grams for the day ... So 104 grams x 3 equals 312 grams which equals .92 mgs. for the day...."

 

Actually, I haven't answered because 1) I really can't make any sense out of those numbers, and 2)  some of the calculations appear to be wrong.  In short, there really isn't enough good info there to give you an answer.

 

To help you, I need to know:

 

What is the dosage of the tablets, in MGs?

 

What is the average weight of the tablets in MGs

 

What is your total daily dose, in MGs?

[[ga...]]

If anybody hears from SG, please let us know how he is!

 

Gard

[[St...]]

Yeah, I mean obviously I've tapered for a while and had neuropathic pain for a while. So my questions come in the context of the earlier conversation about waiting to taper until symptoms are low. Can't remember if that was in this thread or another thread. I thought it was this one.

 

As a generalization, you should begin, or continue, tapering when you are stable.  Stable is NOT a qualitative measure. It does not mean good, or asymtomatic.  The medical definition of stable is the same as the conventional definition...steady, unchanging, consistent, etc.

 

Okay. I've heard symptom free used at times. I think with regards to the concept of glutamate damage. So I was just wanting people's opinions. I know what stable feels like. At least in this new normal. Stable feels like a little anxiety and a little neuropathic pain, both of which I tolerate.

[[...]]

If anybody hears from SG, please let us know how he is!

 

Gard

 

Hi Gard. I had the lithotripsy procedure this morning. It went really well and I have been pain free all day so far without taking any painkillers. I am not sure if I am out of the woods yet as I have been peeing through a screen and have not caught anything. ..not even a trace of any particles. So I assume it is all still caught up somwhere, but no longer big enough to cause pain? Confusing. I would really like to pass all the pieces and get this over with, but I'll take no pain.

[[ed...]]

Happy to hear you are pain free, SG. Great news! Now fill that screen so you can put this all to bed. 

 

Best,

Ed

[Guest [ba...]]

Badsocref.... If you are able, can you double check the calculations of my question in #5....above.... I'm not sure who else to ask and I think builder just didnt have a chance to get to me....

 

I just need to know ASAP since I started this already...... Thank you all so very much!!!!!

 

Like Builder said, there's not enough info to do the calculations, but you're not the first person who has felt that liquid formulations felt like a cut and returning to pills felt like a boost.  It's not unusual to up-dose slightly (10-20%) when you move from solid to liquid.

[[an...]]

If anybody hears from SG, please let us know how he is!

 

Gard

 

Hi Gard. I had the lithotripsy procedure this morning. It went really well and I have been pain free all day so far without taking any painkillers. I am not sure if I am out of the woods yet as I have been peeing through a screen and have not caught anything. ..not even a trace of any particles. So I assume it is all still caught up somwhere, but no longer big enough to cause pain? Confusing. I would really like to pass all the pieces and get this over with, but I'll take no pain.

 

Hi SG,

 

I am so happy to hear you have relief from the pain!!  This is wonderful news.  It might take a while for the stones to pass.  At least the pain is gone so that is a good sign.  I think it can take up to a week or two for the pieces to pass.

 

Anne 

[[Ul...]]

If anybody hears from SG, please let us know how he is!

 

Gard

 

Hi Gard. I had the lithotripsy procedure this morning. It went really well and I have been pain free all day so far without taking any painkillers. I am not sure if I am out of the woods yet as I have been peeing through a screen and have not caught anything. ..not even a trace of any particles. So I assume it is all still caught up somwhere, but no longer big enough to cause pain? Confusing. I would really like to pass all the pieces and get this over with, but I'll take no pain.

 

Pass all that trash outta there, SG!!! And pass your remaining sx's while you're at it. We love you man!!!!!!!!!!

 

Jeff