Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[Guest [ba...]]

fwiw - reducing ones dose brings them closer to being drug-free, so could be considered to be healing in a sense.  A brief hold following a cut would be expected to allow the body to catch up with the cut, so could also be considered to be healing.  I don't feel that long holds or holds after increasing a dose would be times of healing except perhaps to help a person regain some confidence to continue with their taper.

 

I'm not sure that I buy into this glutamate toxicity model that some people here talk about or that I believe that cuts should only be made when a person is symptomless.  Perhaps somebody could point me to a journal article on glutamate toxicity using normal physiological amounts of GLU.

[[...]]

IMO, yes, you heal when holding. They can be persistent so it can take a long time to get rid of them, but I think once you do you set yourself up for a better taper.

So if you've had a taper with symptoms the best thing you can do is to try and continue as symptom free as possible? Including possible updoses to avoid glutamate damage?

 

Some are more interested in getting off than they are in getting rid of symptoms.  For these people, holding is not for them.  We all eventually recover either way.  It is up to the individual to decide what they want to tolerate and how long they are willing to remain sick after they are done.

 

If you are not satisfied with the way you feel, to me it makes sense to invest the time now with holding or updosing, feel better, and then taper in a way that keeps it that way.  IMO, this will not only be less symptomatic, it may also be quicker overall since glutamate injury was avoided - if you never got an injury in the first place, you will not have to spend time recovering from it.

[[...]]

fwiw - reducing ones dose brings them closer to being drug-free, so could be considered to be healing in a sense.  A brief hold following a cut would be expected to allow the body to catch up with the cut, so could also be considered to be healing.  I don't feel that long holds or holds after increasing a dose would be times of healing except perhaps to help a person regain some confidence to continue with their taper.

 

I'm not sure that I buy into this glutamate toxicity model that some people here talk about or that I believe that cuts should only be made when a person is symptomless.  Perhaps somebody could point me to a journal article on glutamate toxicity using normal physiological amounts of GLU.

 

Bad, Read this paper by Perseverance and see what you think...

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=85498.0

 

The glutamate theory is a serious theory out there, but it is just that - a theory of what is happening.  The brain is extremely complex so I'm sure it is not the whole story.  The question is does it capture enough to guide us off.

[[ed...]]

I completely believe in the fact that glutamates in our diet during tapers can set us off. I've unknowingly ingested soy or other high glutamate foods many times with disastrous results.  Over the past year, I've made the proper dietary adjustments and saved myself quite a bit of suffering.

 

--Ed

[[...]]

I agree symptom free is probably everyone's goal but we are on here bc we aren't fully symptom free. The real question is how to keep sx's at bay? Everyone says slow the taper as you get lower but how do you know when to slow the taper- it seems you slow when you get more symptoms.

So what is everyone's method to try to maintain minimal sx's? Does keeping a log of sx's help you?

And when you slow the rate, by how much do you slow the rate?

[[Ul...]]

Hilary and Donald will be in jail before I get through all of this!  Quote

 

VERY LONG LAUGH. THANK YOU

 

I feel the same way.  Pretty much a way of life for a long time.  ACTUALLY I THINK OF IT A LITTLE LIKE JAIL.

 

It's jail alright!!!

 

Onwards we go. Hang in there!

 

Jeff

[[Ul...]]

I completely believe in the fact that glutamates in our diet during tapers can set us off. I've unknowingly ingested soy or other high glutamate foods many times with disastrous results.  Over the past year, I've made the proper dietary adjustments and saved myself quite a bit of suffering.

 

--Ed

 

Thanks for that info, Ed. Tell me: what are some of the foods that have glutamate? Also, what is the diet that you now follow that seems to help?

 

Thanks again!

 

Jeff

[[...]]

Hi Ultra,

 

I found this article on glutamate in food.  https://chriskresser.com/beyond-msg-could-hidden-sources-of-glutamate-be-harming-your-health/  Hope it helps.

 

 

[Guest [ba...]]

I agree symptom free is probably everyone's goal but we are on here bc we aren't fully symptom free. The real question is how to keep sx's at bay? Everyone says slow the taper as you get lower but how do you know when to slow the taper- it seems you slow when you get more symptoms.

So what is everyone's method to try to maintain minimal sx's? Does keeping a log of sx's help you?

And when you slow the rate, by how much do you slow the rate?

 

Personally, I think it's wise to track/rate symptoms and to adjust the taper rate accordingly.  I once made up a spreadsheet that does that (adjusts one's daily taper rate according to how they're feeling).  How much to reduce the rate is anybody's guess.

[[...]]

badsocref,

 

How did you make a spreadsheet that adjusted your daily taper rate according to your symptoms?

 

I am on day 8 of my dlmt and I feel awful. Problem is I am still also in withdrawal from CTing an AD so I'm not sure what symptoms are from what. I just know I'm feeling worse and different. Today I was really agitated and anxious which made my agoraphobia worse. Usually I can take the dog out no problem but today it was rough.

 

I've only reduced by about 1% of my dose so I find it hard to believe I'm having withdrawal symptoms. Is this unusual? Feeling rather frightened as I have a looooong way to go yet.

[Guest [ba...]]

badsocref,

 

How did you make a spreadsheet that adjusted your daily taper rate according to your symptoms?

 

I am on day 8 of my dlmt and I feel awful. Problem is I am still also in withdrawal from CTing an AD so I'm not sure what symptoms are from what. I just know I'm feeling worse and different. Today I was really agitated and anxious which made my agoraphobia worse. Usually I can take the dog out no problem but today it was rough.

 

I've only reduced by about 1% of my dose so I find it hard to believe I'm having withdrawal symptoms. Is this unusual? Feeling rather frightened as I have a looooong way to go yet.

 

There's a 'basic' rate that the user establishes (0.5% cut per day, for example).  Each morning, you enter a rating for 10 different types of symptoms.  If you're feeling good and enter lot of 8's or 9's, the spreadsheet increases that day's cut a little bit.  If you're feeling poorly, then it reduces (or eliminates) the cut.  If you're kind of hanging in there (ratings of mostly 6's and 7's), then it maintains the basic rate.  There's a link to it somewhere in the forum.

[[fi...]]

badsocref,

 

How did you make a spreadsheet that adjusted your daily taper rate according to your symptoms?

 

I am on day 8 of my dlmt and I feel awful. Problem is I am still also in withdrawal from CTing an AD so I'm not sure what symptoms are from what. I just know I'm feeling worse and different. Today I was really agitated and anxious which made my agoraphobia worse. Usually I can take the dog out no problem but today it was rough.

 

I've only reduced by about 1% of my dose so I find it hard to believe I'm having withdrawal symptoms. Is this unusual? Feeling rather frightened as I have a looooong way to go yet.

 

There's a 'basic' rate that the user establishes (0.5% cut per day, for example).  Each morning, you enter a rating for 10 different types of symptoms.  If you're feeling good and enter lot of 8's or 9's, the spreadsheet increases that day's cut a little bit.  If you're feeling poorly, then it reduces (or eliminates) the cut.  If you're kind of hanging in there (ratings of mostly 6's and 7's), then it maintains the basic rate.  There's a link to it somewhere in the forum.

 

would love that link if anyone can find??

[[Ul...]]

Hi Ultra,

 

I found this article on glutamate in food.  https://chriskresser.com/beyond-msg-could-hidden-sources-of-glutamate-be-harming-your-health/  Hope it helps.

 

Very helpful. Thanks!!

 

Jeff

[[Ma...]]

Does a high potency benzo such as Xanax and Klonopin affect different or additional Gaba receptors than a low potency benzo such as Temazepam?

[[...]]

badsocref,

 

How did you make a spreadsheet that adjusted your daily taper rate according to your symptoms?

 

I am on day 8 of my dlmt and I feel awful. Problem is I am still also in withdrawal from CTing an AD so I'm not sure what symptoms are from what. I just know I'm feeling worse and different. Today I was really agitated and anxious which made my agoraphobia worse. Usually I can take the dog out no problem but today it was rough.

 

I've only reduced by about 1% of my dose so I find it hard to believe I'm having withdrawal symptoms. Is this unusual? Feeling rather frightened as I have a looooong way to go yet.

 

There's a 'basic' rate that the user establishes (0.5% cut per day, for example).  Each morning, you enter a rating for 10 different types of symptoms.  If you're feeling good and enter lot of 8's or 9's, the spreadsheet increases that day's cut a little bit.  If you're feeling poorly, then it reduces (or eliminates) the cut.  If you're kind of hanging in there (ratings of mostly 6's and 7's), then it maintains the basic rate.  There's a link to it somewhere in the forum.

 

That looks amazing do you have any idea what thread the link might be in?

 

I'm now 10 days in and have cut all of .019mg out of 1.25 and I am having lots of intense sxs. I didn't think cutting such tiny amounts would cause this many sxs. I'm cutting .0019 a day. It is about 4% in a month. Does anyone else have a problem with such tiny cuts?

 

Thanks

[[Va...]]

Does a high potency benzo such as Xanax and Klonopin affect different or additional Gaba receptors than a low potency benzo such as Temazepam?

I believe it's about receptor binding Magnolis. Xanax and K bind to the receptors tighter than a weaker benzo like V although K also has additional properties involving serotonin I believe. Just my thoughts.  --V

[[ga...]]

Does a high potency benzo such as Xanax and Klonopin affect different or additional Gaba receptors than a low potency benzo such as Temazepam?

I believe it's about receptor binding Magnolis. Xanax and K bind to the receptors tighter than a weaker benzo like V although K also has additional properties involving serotonin I believe. Just my thoughts.  --V

 

V, How does that affect a taper? I tapered first with X and now am on L which is a weak version of V. -Gard

[Guest [ba...]]

badsocref,

 

How did you make a spreadsheet that adjusted your daily taper rate according to your symptoms?

 

I am on day 8 of my dlmt and I feel awful. Problem is I am still also in withdrawal from CTing an AD so I'm not sure what symptoms are from what. I just know I'm feeling worse and different. Today I was really agitated and anxious which made my agoraphobia worse. Usually I can take the dog out no problem but today it was rough.

 

I've only reduced by about 1% of my dose so I find it hard to believe I'm having withdrawal symptoms. Is this unusual? Feeling rather frightened as I have a looooong way to go yet.

 

There's a 'basic' rate that the user establishes (0.5% cut per day, for example).  Each morning, you enter a rating for 10 different types of symptoms.  If you're feeling good and enter lot of 8's or 9's, the spreadsheet increases that day's cut a little bit.  If you're feeling poorly, then it reduces (or eliminates) the cut.  If you're kind of hanging in there (ratings of mostly 6's and 7's), then it maintains the basic rate.  There's a link to it somewhere in the forum.

 

would love that link if anyone can find??

 

Link is here:  http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=152430.0  PM me or post to that thread (I don't want to hijack this thread) if you have questions about using the spreadsheet.

[[...]]

Does a high potency benzo such as Xanax and Klonopin affect different or additional Gaba receptors than a low potency benzo such as Temazepam?

I believe it's about receptor binding Magnolis. Xanax and K bind to the receptors tighter than a weaker benzo like V although K also has additional properties involving serotonin I believe. Just my thoughts.  --V

 

I agree. I think potency gets determined by the amount of time it remains bound to the receptor. K hangs on a lot longer than V...apparently about 20x longer I would think. There is also the fact that we don't all clear the benzo at the same rate so the half life varies between people, which means our 'internal dose' varies. But this is not the same thing as potency. As Valley said, they are not all up to the exact same thing. I am not sure exactly what the differences are, but would imagine they may bind in a minor way to various other receptors or favor one subtype over another and that these differences account for the variation in effects.

 

[[...]]

badsocref,

 

How did you make a spreadsheet that adjusted your daily taper rate according to your symptoms?

 

I am on day 8 of my dlmt and I feel awful. Problem is I am still also in withdrawal from CTing an AD so I'm not sure what symptoms are from what. I just know I'm feeling worse and different. Today I was really agitated and anxious which made my agoraphobia worse. Usually I can take the dog out no problem but today it was rough.

 

I've only reduced by about 1% of my dose so I find it hard to believe I'm having withdrawal symptoms. Is this unusual? Feeling rather frightened as I have a looooong way to go yet.

 

There's a 'basic' rate that the user establishes (0.5% cut per day, for example).  Each morning, you enter a rating for 10 different types of symptoms.  If you're feeling good and enter lot of 8's or 9's, the spreadsheet increases that day's cut a little bit.  If you're feeling poorly, then it reduces (or eliminates) the cut.  If you're kind of hanging in there (ratings of mostly 6's and 7's), then it maintains the basic rate.  There's a link to it somewhere in the forum.

 

would love that link if anyone can find??

 

Link is here:  http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=152430.0  PM me or post to that thread (I don't want to hijack this thread) if you have questions about using the spreadsheet.

 

Thank you sooo much.

[[Ma...]]

Potency of these drugs is a topic of interest that I have researched a little.

I  looked up the chemical compounds of each drug. I’m very curious about what I did to by brain all these years.

 

Zanax  is a "triazolobenzodiazapine" that attaches to many sub gaba receptors, 1 mg=20 mg valium  multiple of 20 X

 

Temazapam is a "3- hydroxy" , 30 mg=11 V (I did it in 11) Ashton says 15 which is completely excessive . Multiple of .36        * The only benzo with a lower potency than valium.

 

klonopin is a "7 nitro"- anti convulsant.  Multiple of 20  1 mg= 20 mg valium

 

Ativan- don’t have compounds on that one but it is 10 X  so 1 mg = 10mg valium

 

Valium is very similar to temazapam and is more potent.

 

I took Temazapam for over 20 years, which is lower potency than the big 3.  The forum seems to

 

address Zanax, Klonopin and Ativan 95% of the time.

 

Since I have been on Benzo Buddies for the last 4 months, there have only been 2 active  members on temazapam who took this drug solely without combining with another. One went direct the other did a crossover.

 

My question is this: Should micro taper daily rates be higher for a person that took a lower potency benzo? I am currently at .030 daily. 1 mg per 33 days.  Going well.

 

I have never seen this topic addressed and would appreciate feedback.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[ga...]]

Potency of these drugs is a topic of interest that I have researched a little.

I  looked up the chemical compounds of each drug. I’m very curious about what I did to by brain all these years.

 

Zanax  is a "triazolobenzodiazapine" that attaches to many sub gaba receptors, 1 mg=20 mg valium  multiple of 20 X

 

Temazapam is a "3- hydroxy" , 30 mg=11 V (I did it in 11) Ashton says 15 which is completely excessive . Multiple of .36        * The only benzo with a lower potency than valium.

 

klonopin is a "7 nitro"- anti convulsant.  Multiple of 20  1 mg= 20 mg valium

 

Ativan- don’t have compounds on that one but it is 10 X  so 1 mg = 10mg valium

 

Valium is very similar to temazapam and is more potent.

 

I took Temazapam for over 20 years, which is lower potency than the big 3.  The forum seems to

 

address Zanax, Klonopin and Ativan 95% of the time.

 

Since I have been on Benzo Buddies for the last 4 months, there have only been 2 active  members on temazapam who took this drug solely without combining with another. One went direct the other did a crossover.

 

My question is this: Should micro taper daily rates be higher for a person that took a lower potency benzo? I am currently at .030 daily. 1 mg per 33 days.  Going well.

 

I have never seen this topic addressed and would appreciate feedback.

 

I am on Librium, which is also less potent than Valium. 25L = 5V. (Supposedly.) I'm curious about your question, too.

[[li...]]

On day 14 of my DLMT pulling .03 ml/60 ml of milk with 1.25 mg of klonopin. This after a 6 month hold, 6 weeks of getting worse by switching doses and an updose from 1.19 to 1.21 that made me feel worse. I'm deteriorating from more functional (off the couch) to back on the couch. K people would say grin and bear it and just keep going CUZ I'm kindled and stability can't happen. Others say hold when symptoms worsen and others say do a c/h pattern to stay ahead of crashing. I've not tried a pattern but am considering it now. It makes sense to give your brain s break but when I've done holds in the past, my brain gets frantic so I don't know if I've waited too long to hold and it's the lag time or what. I feel like I'm never getting out of this in one piece this time. I also started diffusing lavender per a friend's recommendation and I really felt better sleep and more energy but now that I'm crashing I don't know if it's the lavender or if I'm just already due for a hold.

 

Would love to hear from folks who benefitted from a pattern

And SG im always grateful for your advice. By the way PERSEVERANCE was a buddy of mine in 2011 when we were going through this and I'm still in touch with her. She's brilliant.

[[Ma...]]

SG IS IN MAJOR PAIN Not related to benzos. CANT HAVE RELIEF TIL WED.  LETS ALL DO A GROUP PRAYER FOR HIM!!!

[[ed...]]

SG IS IN MAJOR PAIN Not related to benzos. CANT HAVE RELIEF TIL WED.  LETS ALL DO A GROUP PRAYER FOR HIM!!!

 

I'll post it on the Faith Board.