Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[fi...]]

Thank you SG and Ed - I appreciate the replies - I think I need to back away from the computer and try and distract myself a little bit........God this is a lonely road and scary too

 

Thanks for the support

[[ed...]]

Hey Fight,

 

When you come back here you'll see this. To me, stabilized doesn't necessarily mean sx free. It just means your emotions/sx aren't up and down and all over the place. Currently, when I am stabilized, I still feel like absolute crud. I just know it isn't going to get any better and it's time to reduce a bit.

 

And you're right that this can be scary. But you'll make it through and learn things you never knew about yourself--like what an amazing, strong, and compassionate person you're capable of being.

 

All the Best,

Ed

[[bu...]]

 

 

1.  How long should I stay at 6.5 before I restart the taper?

 

2.  How much of a cut should I start with? I'm so scared that I thought maybe just 3% the first month - but now I'm reading of people actually doing better with larger cuts? Am I reading that correctly?

 

3.  I dose 2x a day - so when I start, if I use part pills and part liquid Valium (rx) what do some of you more experienced folks here suggest for the liquid portion? I was thinking 1mg total (1/2 mg AM and 1/2 MG pm) to start - and staying at the 6.5 mg to get used to the liquid?? or up-dose again?

 

4.  I had a good appt. with my Dr. Friday and I think he is willing to go the distance for me and do whatever I want as long as he feels that I am competent and can handle it all without overdosing or underdosing myself (he can tell how foggy I am) But point being - He will prescribe whatever we need - be it liquid or compounding or whatever -

 

IDEAS??

 

 

 

When started my daily taper with Rx liquid V, I did not do any updose, but I held the same dose for 10 days before making a cut.

 

I was at 9mg, and started cutting .025mg/day (7.5%/month)

 

I always made my cuts from my PM dose, just for convenience.  Symptom-wise, it really shouldn't make any difference.

 

I only used liquid for the "cut" portion of my dose, so never more than 1mg/day from liquid. (For example, at 9mg, I took 8mg by tablet, and the rest liquid)

[[ga...]]

I dissolved one of my capsules (1 out of 6, so half of one dose) this morning and am clobbered symptoms this evening. Could this really be from dissolving one capsule? I didn't even make a cut. I will say the capsules themselves are very tough things. They don't dissolve at all. I have to dump the powder out. So I'm sure the liquid its faster than the capsule. But L is a very long half life drug with active metabolite similar to V. I wouldn't think it would hit me like this. This is very scary.

 

Gard

[[so...]]

 

 

Hi buddies, I posted this on the withdrawal forum but thought I might get more responses here. Any advice I can get would be much appreciated. I have been back at work full-time for about 5 months after undergoing chemotherapy last year and then learning I had the benzo problem. It's not been great, as I feel like sludge most of the time, but I've been muddling along.

 

This past Friday my boss told me that our lab no longer has the funding to support two technicians, and that my co-worker was being shifted to another lab. Which means I will be on my own to run the whole show and supervise our three undergrad assistants.

 

To say I'm terrified would be an understatement. I have leaned very heavily on my co-worker to help me get through the days, as I spend much of the time staggering around in a fog of d/r d/p, thick head, fatigue, shakiness, crap sleep... I am hardly at my best. Very worried that I will not be capable of taking on the full workload. Two years ago, before I fell sick, it would have been no problem.

 

I did have a very frank talk with my boss, and he fully understands my situation. But that doesn't change the financial facts. I've got to be on my game, do the job well, and not take sick days, since no one can cover for me.

 

Any advice on how to get my symptoms more under control so that I feel better and can keep my job? Losing the job is not on the table. I am single and have to hang onto my good health insurance, and be able to financially support myself and help out my daughter. She lives independently from me but is still a teenager and needs assistance from me at times.

 

Since February I have been doing cut and hold, but I have noticed that the last few weeks have become more challenging. I'm now at about day 16 of my latest cut from 3.25 mg to 3.0 mg diazepam.

 

Should I stop trying to taper? Probably not - I know I would risk tolerance problems down the road. Should I continue the taper, but switch to liquid and go really really slowly? Would that help me to feel more stable? What rate of dropping dose would you suggest?

 

To add to the fun, I'm facing more surgery (hysterectomy), and my thyroid is going hyper. Panic about both of these looming problems makes me fear that the benzo thing could get worse. Seriously, the hits just keep coming. This absolutely sucks. Not sure how much more of this I can take. It's really hard to persevere sometimes.

 

I know we all have our challenges - we're all having a tough time. Thanks buddies.

 

~SS

 

 

 

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Benzo history: 1 mg Ativan once a day for 9 months, from June 2015-March 2016, due to anxiety from a cancer diagnosis. Crossed over to Valium in March, currently on 6 mg V once a day. Working on tapering down, using cut and hold method.

5/14/16: 5.0 mg V

6/11/16: 4.5 mg V

7/4/16: 4.0 mg V

7/26/16: 3.5 mg V

8/22/16: 3.25 mg V

9/16/16: 3.0 mg V

[[bu...]]

 

 

 

Should I stop trying to taper? Probably not - I know I would risk tolerance problems down the road. Should I continue the taper, but switch to liquid and go really really slowly? Would that help me to feel more stable? What rate of dropping dose would you suggest?

 

 

 

That would be my advice! 

[[ka...]]

 

 

 

Should I stop trying to taper? Probably not - I know I would risk tolerance problems down the road. Should I continue the taper, but switch to liquid and go really really slowly? Would that help me to feel more stable? What rate of dropping dose would you suggest?

 

 

 

That would be my advice! 

 

I agree, switch to liquid, hold  & then resume a slow taper.

[[so...]]

Thanks very much Builder and Kasey. Any suggestions on rate of drop? Start with .02 mg daily and see how it goes? Or would .01 mg daily be better?

 

Does anyone do this, but incorporates holds into the reductions as needed?

 

I'll be holding for a while at 3.0 mg V. I'm on Day 16, and feeling very woozy and spacy today. Headaches too. It's a zombie day, and no fun. Hope to feel better soon.

 

Plus I have surgery coming up at some point in late fall/early winter, and don't intend to resume any sort of taper until that is done and I'm feeling somewhat recovered.

[[ka...]]

As you know everyone is different and it is a bit of trial & error. This may be a nice starting point for you as you are on a lower overall dose of V - I reduce by .01ml daily and hold as needed. I have found that I generally need to taper for about 5 days and hold 2-3 days then resume tapering... I try to keep it to my normal yucky baseline. once my symptoms ramp up, i hold a few days and then press on.

ED - I think reduces by .02 and holds as well for a few days. very similar to how I do it.

SS - you can do this, i know you can!!

 

[[fi...]]

thank you all for replies!!! - I'm feeling much better today - Its hard to tease out sxs from anxiety sometimes - but my vision is better today (which gives me hope that the up dose is helping) - only slight blackness in corner of one eye -

 

SS - I am amazed at your determination with all you have on your plate - truly - I'm inspired by you!! Your post really went a long way in helping me pull myself up this am and say to myself "this, I can do" .........I'm keeping you in my thoughts today.....

 

thanks to all of you - so glad I finally registered on BB (I've been a stalker for a year now)

 

so today, if I get stuck - my mantra is "This too shall pass"

 

:smitten: To all

[[ga...]]

Solitude, I held for 6 months and it did me a world of good. I am starting up again very, very slowly. I think holding and a very slow taper is a good idea. You might check out the long hold support group for more info on holding. There is wealth of info on there.

 

Best wishes,

 

Gard

[[bu...]]

Thanks very much Builder and Kasey. Any suggestions on rate of drop? Start with .02 mg daily and see how it goes? Or would .01 mg daily be better?

 

Does anyone do this, but incorporates holds into the reductions as needed?

 

 

 

I would start at .01/day, and make any needed adjustments from there.

 

If you do an appropriate taper rate, a daily taper shouldn't require any holds.  I only did one hold for sxs during my microtaper.  If you need a hold, you'll know.

[[so...]]

Thank you all very much. Great advice. 

[[de...]]

good morning

 

SG or anyone that can help me please

 

 

Could someone please answer something for me..it didnt hit me til this morning that all the time i have taken k even before i started to taper the dose was always the same...

 

could i be struggling more cause my doses are so different cause even when tapering i was always told to keep the 4 doses as close to the same gms as possible..like i was before i updosed took .87 .87 .87 .87 then would cut .001 off 1 dose alternating doses..

 

well since i updosed back in may...and now that i weigh out the powder from crushing it that started in july..my weights per day are

 

.130 .130 .087 .130...and to me that .087 is throwing a wrench into it..i know at the end of the day its still 2.75 and i know about the half life but couldnt the difference and everything throw me off depending on how fast my body metabolizes the med?

 

and yet i dont think it would be a good idea just to make them all even at once and that would be a big change..

 

i am really struggling with everything from eating to walking and the heart rate..i cant go anywhere without being in a wheel chair and sure wish i knew what to do but the reason i am asking this is my son said why is the one dose so little..

 

would appreciate any help as i am just so sick and cant find any light anymore..i am just down and out

 

also i have the basic scale and i have found that it can be off quite a bit over the doses of one day..so do you think its worth the money to get the 900.00 scale pharmacy that goes out 0000 four digits so i could be more accurate.hubby says get it and so does my son and terri but just wondering if anyone has it and is using it..i know one person on the fb group that has it.

 

 

hugs

deep

[[bu...]]

1)  It's really unlikely that your dosage differences would be causing any problem.  Actually, most folks on K get along with only 2 doses/day, some on a single dose.

 

2)  No, you don't need a $900 scale.  Even the tablets as they come from the pharmacy are probably not that precise.  If you look at the tablet weights that many BBs post, you'll note that a 10% variation in a single batch is not unusual.

[[...]]

I agree with Builder on both Q's, Deep.  I'd think it is very unlikely that your dosing levels are a problem.  The bigger doses are 27% and the smaller one is 18%.  And there are four of them.  I just don't see that being an issue.  I do see people having issues when changes are made that I would not expect to be a problem.  This is hard to understand, but seems to be real.

 

As for the scale, I also agree.  The pills themselves are less accurate than the cheap scales.  You get a little more one day, a little less the next.  In the end it comes out right and is good enough.  I would not expect any problems to come from it and, while liquids certainly are more accurate, people seem to do okay with scales.

[Guest [ba...]]

You most definitely don't need a $900 scale.  I finally broke down and bought one of those little Gemini-20 scales for $21 from Amazon.  I ordered it to take on the road to weigh samples for analysis.  It's awkward to be lugging a $3000 scale around and there's no always power in the field.  It arrived last night.  It's actually a really nice scale.  It's easy to calibrate and reproducible enough for my needs.  I do analytical/natural products chem for a living and have access to some very nice balances.  This little Gem-20 is very decent - especially for the money.  If you use it correctly, it should be accurate enough to get you through your taper.

[[de...]]

SG builder and Bad

 

thanks so much for your input..and i have been using that kind of scale for over 2 yrs now..and i know its off..

 

i am just grasping for some answers and for some relief..and cant figure it out

 

i have been holding since like may i think and i am not getting any better ..and not sure why..if anything i am getting worse..so dont know what to do.

 

And glad all of you agree about the scale as i really didnt want to put out that kind of money.

 

If you all have any other suggestions on what i could try to get me back on the road with this i would greatly appreciate it

 

thanks again

 

deep

[[ed...]]

Hi Deep,

 

I went out and spent good money on a .0001 scale; I love it.  The Gemini is surprisingly accurate on the first weighing attempt. Where I find it to lack is when you need to add a bit or take a bit out from the boat.  I also hate that you have to rush the weighing process or the scale shuts down and you have to start all over.  With this new scale, there are no problems. It's so precise that I can weigh my empty capsule before filling it with powder, measure out my powder, and then measure out the capsule again to verify that all the medication was successfully deposited into the capsule.

 

Now, I won't dispute the fact that pills may vary in weight/medication. However, I now know that I won't be compounding the issue by measuring incorrectly.  To each his own. I used to spend $1K per month going out for meals. Now I spend $0. The price of this scale is absorbed pretty quickly after just a couple of months. 

 

I used the Gemini (2 of them, in fact) for a good portion of my taper and they worked well. It's just that at my current dosage, I'm VERY sensitive to ANY cut.  Even if it is placebo, I'm happy KNOWING my dose is consistent on my end.

 

Hope this helps.

Best,

Ed

[[no...]]

SG builder and Bad

 

thanks so much for your input..and i have been using that kind of scale for over 2 yrs now..and i know its off..

 

i am just grasping for some answers and for some relief..and cant figure it out

 

i have been holding since like may i think and i am not getting any better ..and not sure why..if anything i am getting worse..so dont know what to do.

 

And glad all of you agree about the scale as i really didnt want to put out that kind of money.

 

If you all have any other suggestions on what i could try to get me back on the road with this i would greatly appreciate it

 

thanks again

 

deep

Hi Deep  on this review here on the link the guy that wrote it is in science and tested the Gemini Scales against  that are 5-10k a piece and he rated the Gemini 5 stars up against the expensive Lab ones, plus he wrote the whole tests and results as well. I'm glad to see it as mine are the same scales as a Gemini, and got worried that they may not be as good as the more expensive ones, but turns out their just as good for our needs 

 

And lots of people just eyeball their cut pills and do fine that way, I did that for many years with all types of drugs and got off them. I only got worried about weighing pills, powder when I joined BB, as we all know, everything worries us in our fragile states especially with dosage weight. I hate it, its one of my worse paranoia bought on by withdrwal, I never gave it a thought for years  when I just eyeballed everything until I read around the forum. In that case ignorance truly was bliss on less thing to be freaked out over

 

 

Love Nova xxx :smitten:

 

 

Almost a true milligram scale by laboratory testing https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R3FRRGZ42CYNO0/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B0012TDNAM

[[ed...]]

From the review:

 

My recommendation is that if you need an inexpensive scale to measure within a few milligrams, and are willing to calibrate manually, buy this scale. If you must have absolute accuracy, set aside at least $10-20K on a laboratory scale, stand, and accessories, and dedicated weighing room. And if you need real accuracy, get an equal-arm balance.

 

Unfortunately, for me a few milligrams makes the difference between a tolerable day and a miserable day at this point. When I was over 5 milligrams of Valium, a couple of milligrams of pill weight didn't matter a whole bunch. Now, a few milligrams of pill weight makes a world of difference. But to each their own.

 

Best,

Ed

 

[[no...]]

From the review:

 

My recommendation is that if you need an inexpensive scale to measure within a few milligrams, and are willing to calibrate manually, buy this scale. If you must have absolute accuracy, set aside at least $10-20K on a laboratory scale, stand, and accessories, and dedicated weighing room. And if you need real accuracy, get an equal-arm balance.

 

Unfortunately, for me a few milligrams makes the difference between a tolerable day and a miserable day at this point. When I was over 5 milligrams of Valium, a couple of milligrams of pill weight didn't matter a whole bunch. Now, a few milligrams of pill weight makes a world of difference. But to each their own.

 

Best,

Ed

Hi Ed  Unfortunately I haven't got  £300-£2,000 to buy a good 0001 scale, mine is acurrate to 0.001 like most of BB no doubt  And a Member  on here whose a Chemist said last year in a post on this thread that she wouldn't trust the lab ones costing thousands either for her students to get an accurate reading that's why she does liquid tapering. I'm the same as you less than a microgram 00.1 I can feel it  badly  it Where others can cut 0.1 upwards with absolutely no problems at all, but that being said I was having symptoms taking whole pills when I got down to the lower doses so even if I did spend thousands the end result would be the same. 

 

I'm still going to have these symptoms, I'm just hoping and praying as I get lower its going to make a big difference, it's taken me nearly 2 year's to get rid of  1/8 recently that's how severe my symptoms are. I can take a lot believe me my life has never been easy and I had a LOT of pain and trauma and coped with what most people couldn't have gone though. But this is another level of hell , over 10 year's in severe tolerance withdrawal on my prescribed dose now this taper and who knows what post taper?

 

I also lost my mother while going through this, my fiancée left me because of this, I live alone  with no contact with anyone. And the only person that comes to my home is my food delivery man, so if I can't crawl about like I do most of then time then I'm in danger as my very survival depends totally on me and what I can cope with and do.

 

And its not a lot at all right now my mental sate is shot and I have terrible physical problems and as I said one of my main paranoias right now is are my doses correct under or over? I'm trying not to get too het up all the time about precision and its pointed out regularly on the forum that consistency is more important than accuracy so I try to keep that in mind rather than my mind keep running away, the same as your new scale reassure you   Also its not ''milligrams'' MG its ''micrograms'' MCG as a milligram contains 1000 micrograms a 2 milligram pill has 2000 micrograms, it these scales were  1 milligram out that would be half a  2 MG pill and an outrages amount to be out by.  And I would sell everything I own to get a pair of .0001 if that were the case 

 

Love Nova xxx :smitten:

[[ga...]]

 

Hi Ed  Unfortunately I haven't got  £300-£2,000 to buy a good 0001 scale, mine is acurrate to 0.001 like most of BB no doubt  And a Member  on here whose a Chemist said last year in a post on this thread that she wouldn't trust the lab ones costing thousands either for her students to get an accurate reading that's why she does liquid tapering. I'm the same as you less than a microgram 00.1 I can feel it  badly  it Where others can cut 0.1 upwards with absolutely no problems at all, but that being said I was having symptoms taking whole pills when I got down to the lower doses so even if I did spend thousands the end result would be the same. 

 

I'm still going to have these symptoms, I'm just hoping and praying as I get lower its going to make a big difference, it's taken me nearly 2 year's to get rid of  1/8 recently that's how severe my symptoms are. I can take a lot believe me my life has never been easy and I had a LOT of pain and trauma and coped with what most people couldn't have gone though. But this is another level of hell , over 10 year's in severe tolerance withdrawal on my prescribed dose now this taper and who knows what post taper?

 

I also lost my mother while going through this, my fiancée left me because of this, I live alone  with no contact with anyone. And the only person that comes to my home is my food delivery man, so if I can't crawl about like I do most of then time then I'm in danger as my very survival depends totally on me and what I can cope with and do.

 

And its not a lot at all right now my mental sate is shot and I have terrible physical problems and as I said one of my main paranoias right now is are my doses correct under or over? I'm trying not to get too het up all the time about precision and its pointed out regularly on the forum that consistency is more important than accuracy so I try to keep that in mind rather than my mind keep running away, the same as your new scale reassure you   Also its not ''milligrams'' MG its ''micrograms'' MCG as a milligram contains 1000 micrograms a 2 milligram pill has 2000 micrograms, it these scales were  1 milligram out that would be half a  2 MG pill and an outrages amount to be out by.  And I would sell everything I own to get a pair of .0001 if that were the case 

 

Love Nova xxx :smitten:

 

Nova, My heart really goes out to you. Based on the advice from the Chemist, I decided to go with liquid. I just hate dry cutting, so that was a factor, too. I was very stressed at first, but I've gotten pretty good at liquefying my Q and do it every night now. Now I'm on to liquefying my Librium. No choice there because it only comes in capsules in the US. So I'll be all liquids within a month or two.

 

I do think it come down to personal preference and what you know your abilities are. I was so frustrated by the calibrating and the fussy, fussy dry cutting. I just couldn't do it.

 

I, too, am extremely socially isolated. When I became estranged from my son during this (worst thing that has ever happened to me and I still grieve it terribly), my daughter moved back in with me. But she goes to school and works and I rarely see her. And we never really did get along. I can tell she doesn't want to be here. And when she is here, she is usually in a bad mood and I kind of think it would be better if I were alone. Except that I live in a small rental house, am in no condition to try to move, and need her help with things like cutting the grass.

 

Out of pure desperation to not be alone, I called a nearby church (that I don't even like) that has a visitation program for visiting the sick in their homes. A nice woman comes by about twice a month and talks and prays with me. I don't tell her we are not on the same page spiritually. But she is very laid back and not pushy at all, does more listening than talking and seems very concerned about my welfare, so I got lucky there.

 

But, other than that, I have nobody either. I have read that the brain create stress chemicals when it is cut off socially because we are social creatures and meant to have social contact, so that's why I did this. Oh, and I also got a hamster.

 

But it is still so hard to be alone. Perhaps there is some way you could think of increasing your social contact even in a very small way. It might help.

 

Hugs,

 

Gard

[[ga...]]

Sorry if I ask ready asked this and forgot. If I am liquefying one capsule at a time, which is one capsule from each dose, how long should I wait to liquefy the next capsule. It's Librium, which is very similar to Valium, very long half life of active metabolites.

 

My goal is each dose as one capsule and one liquid. So 3 whole capsules and 3 liquefied capsules. I hope this is making sense. Still have Seroquel hangover. Hard to type and make sense sometimes. Autocorrect is saving me!

 

Gard

[[ed...]]

Dear Nova,

 

My heart really goes out to you and all you have endured. It truly does. Sadly, so many of us have different versions of the same story. You've suffered for so long and I pray that you can get some relief soon.  I know how I'm feeling as I go through this and can't imagine going through it for as long as you have.

 

As far as pill weights go, I'm not incorrect here. My pills weigh 160 MILLIGRAMS on average. Within that 160 MG are 2 MG of medicine. This means that for every MG of PILL WEIGHT there are 125 micrograms of medicine.  Because I am weighing out the pill, which weighs 160MG and not weighing the 2MG of active ingredient contained within, it is very reasonable to expect an inexpensive scale to be off by a couple of MGs.

 

We're on the same page that the unit of measure by which we're reducing the medicine is micrograms, but we are doing this by reducing pill weight by milligrams.

All that being said, I'd throw my fancy dancy scale in a dumpster if my body would tolerate liquid. To me, that seems to be THE most accurate method. As you say, we all cling on to what works for us. I mean no disrespect to whatever method you choose and works for you.  It's just a shame that there isn't a one size fits all option.

 

I hope you are having a good day.

 

 

Ed