Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[no...]]

Wow 5% a week--I had to cut down from 5% a month but that's probably because I never held. Hoping to start up a 5% a month daily LMT with regular holds like c/c/h/h/h. I'm going to ask advice before I do that to see if it makes sense. Cut my 1.2 mg K dose down from four to three to see if it would alleviate some side effects 8 days ago and it's been like a huge cut. First two days good. Days 3 and 4 psychotic out of my mind.

Hi Liza    I've gone back to cut and hold , and I've only cut just over an eighth doing 2 cuts in the last 16 days which works out just under 4% of my dose, and am now holding again now on day 9 as even 1 micro gram hits me hard.

 

But its more than I managed to cut doing MT, in 17months I cut less than an eighth, then had to go back to 4mg  I've been struggling to stay under for 17 months doing MT again 16 days ago  so I had a base line to cut from and cut twice and holding as my sxs are bad. I did an accidental updose  Wednesday night, by taking a whole pill instead of one I had cut ready. That's the third time I've done it in the last approx 6-8 months months and each time I felt worse, so I'm going to take steps to make sure It don't happen again, which is easier said than done in this state of mind

 

But as usual I'm not going by a set time or by percentages I just worked out the percentage of my cut in case others want to know what the percentage is can understand. I'm just hanging in there until I feel I can do another cut or feel so bad I can't take it no more I cut anyway as I've done over the last 16 days.  And I noticed since going back to C+H I feel better so far, the day after a cut then day 2-3 its hell again , whether its because I metabolise fast I don't know, or that's just the way it is, but whatever I'm holding again now until whenever

 

 

 

Love Nova xxx :smitten: 

[[li...]]

Why do people feel worse with MT?  I thought the whole idea was that by removing a tiny bit each day you are staying under your brain's radar. Nova how were you doing your MT?

[[li...]]

The few people I know who have done really well with MT have done proactive, not just reactive holds. Who the heck knows. We are as so different and this process is so insidious.

[[Mi...]]

I had a horrible time with cut and hold, never "stabilized", so started microtapering about a year ago and it's gone better. I still have awful symptoms, both physical and emotional, but at least the pain is not a big jolt. I'm at 4.4 mg valium now and cutting .025 five days per week. I use a special pharmacy for my liquid valium. Like you say, we are all different, so whatever works is  best.

 

MirandaJane

[[Sh...]]

Hi fellow Warriors!

 

I post so infrequently that some may not even know or remember me.  Just sharing my journey.  I started my taper from 1mg of K (Clonazepam) on Sept 1,2015.  I am currently at .56mg as of today and have been holding here for several days. I feel this is a very slow taper, but I was working from Aug 2015 - Aug 2016 and needed to go slowly. 

 

It was not the taper that caused me to resign from my job, rather it was a matter of integrity.  I am a person who cannot tolerate it when my personal values are violated.  The manager I worked for had no problem twisting information and lying so that nothing would come back on him. So, I am taking time now to see what I really want to do next. It may take some time, but I believe things will work out.

 

As for the taper, I have SX when I cut.  Usually facial tension, sensitive teeth, and some bursts of anxiety. The long-term issue with being on the K is how emotionally flat I feel and have felt for a very long time. I can force myself to behave "normally" - whatever that is - and interact with people, although I do tend to be an introvert. When I worked, I was wiped out completely by the end of the day from having to be so self aware and working to compensate so that the taper would not impact my job. (I am sure it did in small ways, so that is where I was very open to valid feedback from trusted sources.)   

 

Where "fun" is concerned, I have to fake enthusiasm and can do so, but inside, the motivation and joy of life does not exist. I have a huge heart and compassion for others. I overthink and ruminate, mostly in regard to my past life decisions, (good /bad).

My biggest hope is that after the taper is over, I will be able to enjoy life again.  I was happy-go-lucky and upbeat years ago.  I want to feel that again.  I never realized how much the benzo stole from me.  I realize 'life' can also drain us at times, but I truly believe 80% of this is benzo related.  Just my opinion.

 

I taper using .25mg of a pill and then 3ml (.03mg) liquid (3ml. vodka & 97ml water)

I still drink coffee (probably not smart) and occasionally a glass of wine (also, probably not smart).  I have suffered horrific WDs in the past (2014 -2015) from tapering off of Seroquel, which I would not wish on anyone. 

 

So, keep pressing on warriors.  Keep the faith. 

 

Thanks to SG for all of his help in the past for help with the math.  I am hoping I can taper more quickly while not working, but time will tell.

 

I am not sure if this helps others or not, so take what helps and leave the rest.

 

Take care!

Shaani

 

 

[[Pl...]]

Sg/ Builder.... anyone please...Urgent.... Need help!... Severe symptoms..... Please look at signature first... please!

 

never got acclimated to liquid... Been doing for 4 months.....

 

I need to try something different to save my life......

 

currently at .94.5 in mg of generic clonazepam....

 

Pulled out 6.50 ml so far.....

 

how do I switch over back to pills gradually....

 

I use (2) .50 mg pills diluted in 100 ml of whole milk....

 

Will this upset my symptoms more?    please please help.....

 

Doses taken 3 times a day.... I think i need to change that.... I believe I'm a slow metabolizer....

 

It's like I am in constant withdrawal since I started reducing back in may left over from ativan withdrawal... I never stabilized after 4 months... But symptoms got softer.... Now I am worse then ever...... I don't know what's going on....having stroke like symptoms taken by ambulance to er.... I. Believe I reduced too quickly and its all catching up.. Also with cycle.....

 

Please tell me if this could be a factor...

 

Dr confirmed benzo withdrawal..... Thank you so  much.....

 

Whatever I am doing is not working.... I have to see an addiction specialist and will present a plan to him to see what will work....

 

I don't know of any suggestions to fix this.... But everything will be under supervision of dr.... Please please help me....

 

IDK, Please.  I wish I had answers.  We've been all around this is the past and it is a hard one to figure.  These drugs do some weird things that we don't understand.  It could be that the drug itself is a problem, but my usual suspicion is that, somehow, you are getting shorted.  That could be wrong, but it does happen.  I think Liza mentioned this to you on the Long Hold thread and I thought that was a good thing to check.  Is there anything you are doing that could be speeding the K out of your body?  Other meds?  Foods?  Detoxes and cleanses?  What is your diet like?  Do you eat processed foods?

 

I stopped the foot detoxes and supplements...and eat all organic... I do eat alot of smoothies with spinach kale and blueberries....

.. I believe you are right... The drug itself is a problem and doesn't agree with me.... It's working halfway.... how do you deal with that.... Nobody can tell me...  Do I rapidly come off? Switch to Valium? I guess a doctor who is benzo wise can help?

 

I have to get off of this safely though... I don't know how.... I'm really thinking its the liquid.... I had the hardest time adjusting to that and got sicker....

 

Do you know of a mathematical equation on how to go back to pills gradually like part pills and part liquid on the current dose I'm at which is 94.50mg......

 

I have to try something....

I'm sure you mean 94.50ml. Right?--V

 

I'm confused V because I was under the impression that the milliliters I was pulling out equals to 94.5 mg.... Such as if I  pulled out 6.50ml so far that translates to 94.5 in mg... At least that's what I thought?

 

Is that what I'm doing wrong maybe?

 

SG57 in his infinite patience and kindness was helping me with this.... Maybe he could chime in?!

 

Hi SG ...... I hope all is well....  I had to take a break for awhile and I wasnt sure if I received a reply back to the above if you did i apologize...

 

Is what I described above accurate?..

[[ed...]]

I'm not the math guy, but if you are pulling 6.5 from 100, that's 93.5.

 

--Ed

[[Pl...]]

I'm not the math guy, but if you are pulling 6.5 from 100, that's 93.5.

 

--Ed

 

Ed.... Thanks you're right..... It is 93.50.....   which is even better because it means I'm lower..... Gosh I'm hoping I'm doing this right....

 

I have another thread that I've also asked SG all my math questions on... I hope he sees this one and can answer....

[[ed...]]

You could direct message him/her.

[[Pl...]]

You could direct message him/her.

 

Thank you....

 

I feel badly that Im bothering him maybe ill give him some time to answer....

 

I still dissolve (2) .50 mg clonazepam pills in 100 ml of whole milk...

 

I updated my signature to reflect what I've pulled out so far.....Of course I don't know the exact percentage for the other months but I know what I pulled out each day on my calendar and in what time frame to arrive at the specific ML that I got to...... I just don't know if my translations from ML to MG is correct.....

 

I hope some of this makes some sort of sense......

 

 

[[ga...]]

Hi fellow Warriors!

 

I post so infrequently that some may not even know or remember me.  Just sharing my journey.  I started my taper from 1mg of K (Clonazepam) on Sept 1,2015.  I am currently at .56mg as of today and have been holding here for several days. I feel this is a very slow taper, but I was working from Aug 2015 - Aug 2016 and needed to go slowly. 

 

It was not the taper that caused me to resign from my job, rather it was a matter of integrity.  I am a person who cannot tolerate it when my personal values are violated.  The manager I worked for had no problem twisting information and lying so that nothing would come back on him. So, I am taking time now to see what I really want to do next. It may take some time, but I believe things will work out.

 

As for the taper, I have SX when I cut.  Usually facial tension, sensitive teeth, and some bursts of anxiety. The long-term issue with being on the K is how emotionally flat I feel and have felt for a very long time. I can force myself to behave "normally" - whatever that is - and interact with people, although I do tend to be an introvert. When I worked, I was wiped out completely by the end of the day from having to be so self aware and working to compensate so that the taper would not impact my job. (I am sure it did in small ways, so that is where I was very open to valid feedback from trusted sources.)   

 

Where "fun" is concerned, I have to fake enthusiasm and can do so, but inside, the motivation and joy of life does not exist. I have a huge heart and compassion for others. I overthink and ruminate, mostly in regard to my past life decisions, (good /bad).

My biggest hope is that after the taper is over, I will be able to enjoy life again.  I was happy-go-lucky and upbeat years ago.  I want to feel that again.  I never realized how much the benzo stole from me.  I realize 'life' can also drain us at times, but I truly believe 80% of this is benzo related.  Just my opinion.

 

I taper using .25mg of a pill and then 3ml (.03mg) liquid (3ml. vodka & 97ml water)

I still drink coffee (probably not smart) and occasionally a glass of wine (also, probably not smart).  I have suffered horrific WDs in the past (2014 -2015) from tapering off of Seroquel, which I would not wish on anyone. 

 

So, keep pressing on warriors.  Keep the faith. 

 

Thanks to SG for all of his help in the past for help with the math.  I am hoping I can taper more quickly while not working, but time will tell.

 

I am not sure if this helps others or not, so take what helps and leave the rest.

 

Take care!

Shaani

 

Hi Shaani. I'm trying to taper Seroquel now and doing very poorly. There is a Seroquel support thread now somewhere, but I cannot post much.

[[...]]

You could direct message him/her.

 

Thank you....

 

I feel badly that Im bothering him maybe ill give him some time to answer....

 

I still dissolve (2) .50 mg clonazepam pills in 100 ml of whole milk...

 

I updated my signature to reflect what I've pulled out so far.....Of course I don't know the exact percentage for the other months but I know what I pulled out each day on my calendar and in what time frame to arrive at the specific ML that I got to...... I just don't know if my translations from ML to MG is correct.....

 

I hope some of this makes some sort of sense......

 

Hi Please,

 

I'm not sure I understand the question.  You put 1mg K into 100ml so each ml is .01mg K.  You pull and toss 6.5ml and drink 93.5ml so that is .935mg.  You've been there, or close to it, for several months.  You're using an easy ratio for conversion.  Just move the decimal point two places.  I hope your symptoms are easing a little with the holding.

[[Be...]]

 

Belfast2016

 

1) Use this ratio:  1mgV + 2ml vodka or propylene glycol + 8ml water.  That gives you a dilute solution wh ere 1mg = 10ml.

 

2)  I would probably make a 6mg batch...6mg V + 12ml vodka/PG + 48ml wa water.  That    will last about a week.

 

3)  Continue taking 2mg from your tablets, and the rest from the liquid.

 

 

If you cut .02mg/day, that would be about 5%/week

 

2mg+1mg (10ml)=3mg

2mg+.98mg(9.8ml)=2.98mg

2mg+.96mg(9.6ml)=2.96mg

2mg+.94mg(9.4ml)=2.94mg

 

etc.

 

You will need a 1ml oral syringe, and a 10ml oral syringe.  A 100ml graduated cylinder, or a 50-60ml syringe would be helpful, but not required.

 

Hey Builder, thanks for that!

[[li...]]

Hey SG and Builder

I ended my six-month hold on August 31 because I wasn't feeling any better. I wasn't feeling worse so that was good but I didn't still feel like I was in a position to taper so 10 days ago I went from four doses a day to three doses a day--thinking it would lessen side effects. I had no idea it would feel like a big cut. The first two days were pretty decent but the third and fourth day were Horrendous with psychotic brain crap that I had before the hold. I'm on day nine and it's still rough. I'm going to wait until a full two weeks has gone by and then I'm going to start my micro taper again. What do you think about the idea of doing a patterned taper with built in holds. In other words doing cut cut hold hold since my worst days were of day three and four. Does that translate into that kind of a strategy?

Thanks so much for your help.

[[Be...]]

Just noticed that's for 5% per week. Is that considered a big drop? Average?

[[bu...]]

Just noticed that's for 5% per week. Is that considered a big drop? Average?

  One of the really great features about doing a daily liquid taper is you can actually choose ANY taper rate you want, and even make changes "on the fly".

 

If you don't want to cut .02mg/day (5%/week), then just cut .01mg\ day. (5%/2 weeks, or 10%/month)

 

Use the same prep instructions, but...

 

 

2mg+1mg (10ml)=3mg

2mg+.99mg(9.9ml)=2.99mg

2mg+.98mg(9.8ml)=2.98mg

2mg+.97mg(9.7ml)=2.97mg

 

You can tailor it anyway you want.

[[...]]

Hey SG and Builder

I ended my six-month hold on August 31 because I wasn't feeling any better. I wasn't feeling worse so that was good but I didn't still feel like I was in a position to taper so 10 days ago I went from four doses a day to three doses a day--thinking it would lessen side effects. I had no idea it would feel like a big cut. The first two days were pretty decent but the third and fourth day were Horrendous with psychotic brain crap that I had before the hold. I'm on day nine and it's still rough. I'm going to wait until a full two weeks has gone by and then I'm going to start my micro taper again. What do you think about the idea of doing a patterned taper with built in holds. In other words doing cut cut hold hold since my worst days were of day three and four. Does that translate into that kind of a strategy?

Thanks so much for your help.

 

I would not have expected a big reaction like that either.  I mean, what really changed much?  You went from 4x to 3x, same dose.  So each dose got a little bigger and moved ~2 hours longer.  So the blood peaks are a little higher and the troughs a little lower, but not enough to change much...I would not think.  I believe it happened, but I don't understand it.

 

I know you didn't get much out of the long hold, but I have to believe it was very good for you and certainly not a waste of time.  I don't have answers for you or PBH.  I wish I did.  But the glutamate theory is what makes sense to me and I think you and PBH (and I) have glutamate damage, and it just takes a lot of time to rectify once that occurs.  If the glutamate symptoms were harsh, they will remain harsh for a long time...but they will eventually fade.

 

As far as tapering, I think as long as symptoms are not increasing it is okay to keep tapering.  Getting as close to the ramp path (cutting daily) as possible will always make the most efficient use of the drug to help you, but a pattern like you suggest is close and should be fine.  You could get a little more out of it by doing c/h/c/h instead of c/c/h/h.  Doing c/c/c/c (at half the size) would be the ramp path version.

[[jr...]]

Hello SG and Builder. good to see you!!!

[[li...]]

Thanks SG!

[[li...]]

Actually I've found people who said reducing their number of doses a day felt like a cut anywhere from 1-3 weeks so I don't think I'm an anomaly. Just surprised and discouraged to feel more symptoms rather than less. Mine are 90% psychological so the psychotic episodes and increased DR have been very disturbing. Hope they die down before I start up my DLMT again next week.

[[...]]

Actually I've found people who said reducing their number of doses a day felt like a cut anywhere from 1-3 weeks so I don't think I'm an anomaly. Just surprised and discouraged to feel more symptoms rather than less. Mine are 90% psychological so the psychotic episodes and increased DR have been very disturbing. Hope they die down before I start up my DLMT again next week.

 

I empathize, as my symptoms are also mostly mental.  I've been in a state of dp/dr for six years.  It just refuses to let me go.

[[...]]

Hello SG and Builder. good to see you!!!

 

  Hi JR.  Hope all is well.

[[li...]]

Thanks for your help SG with all you are struggling with. I'm trying to find the hope today that it's actually possible to improve as you taper because no matter what direction I go with this drug I continue to barely function. I've never improved in a taper--just different shades of hell everyday. I hope when I start up soon, though I feel horrendous, my body and brain will be happy like they were the first two days of my dose switch.

[[...]]

Thanks for your help SG with all you are struggling with. I'm trying to find the hope today that it's actually possible to improve as you taper because no matter what direction I go with this drug I continue to barely function. I've never improved in a taper--just different shades of hell everyday. I hope when I start up soon, though I feel horrendous, my body and brain will be happy like they were the first two days of my dose switch.

 

It is definitely possible to improve as you go for some people. others seem to be in an unstable place and any cut makes it worse. hopefully,  your long hold has set you up for a stable taper. I would begin very gently, below 5% a month, and see if you can at least maintain your current symptom level.

[[li...]]

Yes I planned to start under 5% a month. Praying it doesn't get worse.