Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[ed...]]

Badsocref, why is switching back and forth between solid and liquid not a good idea?  My curiosity is getting the better of me.

 

It's only because some people report that the liquid formulation is not as potent as the solid.  So going from solid to liquid may represent a cut and going from liquid to solid may represent an up-dose. 

 

I feel the same way about switching meds half-way through a taper.  I think that one should decide on a method and a benzo and stick with it.  For sure you should slow down or hold when necessary, but switching meds or approaches (e.g. solid <-> liquid) midstream rarely helps people.

When you put it like that it makes sense...even to me.

 

I'm heavily leaning towards using the scale. I have 2mg pills (Valium). Do you think they will work well with the scale?

 

Thanks for taking the time to answer all my questions. I really appreciate it I hope you have a restful evening.

 

I use the .001 Gemini scale for my 2mg valium pills and it works fine and dandy so long as you keep it calibrated (very easy). For peace of mind, I purchased 2 of them since they are so relatively inexpensive and double check each dose.

[Guest [ba...]]

Left Behind - I do not know the precise weight of the 2 mg valium pills that you are using, but you should be able to do small cuts using a milligram balance.  Basically, the minimum cut you can make is the weighing limitation of the scale divided by the mass of the intact pill.

 

If a 2 mg valium pill weighed 150 mg and if the limitation of the scale is 1 mg then you can reduce by 1/150*2 milligrams per cut.  That's 0.01333 mg per cut.  One can argue that the sensitivity of the scale isn't really 1 mg - it's more like 2 or 3 mgs.  Doesn't really matter.  Aim for the weight that you want and go with it.  There is a possible error, but it's small - much smaller than the daily variation of drug in your body due to metabolism.

 

Gardener - I'm glad that your slow crossover worked well for you, and that Librium is allowing you to dose less frequently.  But the mid-stream switch hasn't seemingly made your taper any easier (according to your signature).  But that wasn't the point of my post.  My intent was to point out to people that the grass (benzo) may look greener (easier to taper from) on the other side (by crossing-over), but it rarely is from what I have read here.  Yes, it's possible that I'm only remembering the bad stories. 

[[ga...]]

Left Behind - I do not know the precise weight of the 2 mg valium pills that you are using, but you should be able to do small cuts using a milligram balance.  Basically, the minimum cut you can make is the weighing limitation of the scale divided by the mass of the intact pill.

 

If a 2 mg valium pill weighed 150 mg and if the limitation of the scale is 1 mg then you can reduce by 1/150*2 milligrams per cut.  That's 0.01333 mg per cut.  One can argue that the sensitivity of the scale isn't really 1 mg - it's more like 2 or 3 mgs.  Doesn't really matter.  Aim for the weight that you want and go with it.  There is a possible error, but it's small - much smaller than the daily variation of drug in your body due to metabolism.

 

Gardener - I'm glad that your slow crossover worked well for you, and that Librium is allowing you to dose less frequently.  But the mid-stream switch hasn't seemingly made your taper any easier (according to your signature).  But that wasn't the point of my post.  My intent was to point out to people that the grass (benzo) may look greener (easier to taper from) on the other side (by crossing-over), but it rarely is from what I have read here.  Yes, it's possible that I'm only remembering the bad stories.

 

Bads, there is so much more to my life and my taper than my signature would have room for, as well and many details I choose not to make public in order to maintain my privacy. I stand by what I said about my decision in my previous post. Every word is true and I'm sure that I know best that it was the right decision for me to cross over.

[Guest [ba...]]

Gardiner - I mean no offense.  I'm glad the crossover worked for you.

[[ga...]]

Gardiner - I mean no offense.  I'm glad the crossover worked for you.

 

Thanks, bads. Let's move on.

[[Pl...]]

Left Behind - I do not know the precise weight of the 2 mg valium pills that you are using, but you should be able to do small cuts using a milligram balance.  Basically, the minimum cut you can make is the weighing limitation of the scale divided by the mass of the intact pill.

 

If a 2 mg valium pill weighed 150 mg and if the limitation of the scale is 1 mg then you can reduce by 1/150*2 milligrams per cut.  That's 0.01333 mg per cut.  One can argue that the sensitivity of the scale isn't really 1 mg - it's more like 2 or 3 mgs.  Doesn't really matter.  Aim for the weight that you want and go with it.  There is a possible error, but it's small - much smaller than the daily variation of drug in your body due to metabolism.

 

Gardener - I'm glad that your slow crossover worked well for you, and that Librium is allowing you to dose less frequently.  But the mid-stream switch hasn't seemingly made your taper any easier (according to your signature).  But that wasn't the point of my post.  My intent was to point out to people that the grass (benzo) may look greener (easier to taper from) on the other side (by crossing-over), but it rarely is from what I have read here.  Yes, it's possible that I'm only remembering the bad stories.

 

Badsocref....when you mean crossing over... Do you mean crossing over to liquid as being a bad idea and not working as well as pills?

[[Ul...]]

Hey Builder (or whoever wants to answer). I know I don't get on here a lot since I'm still at such a high dose and just trying to go through the motions, but I noticed that SG doesn't seem to have any comments where I just looked. Is he permanently away from this thread now?

 

Many thanks!

 

Jeff

 

Howdy!! Thought I'd reach out again...

[[On...]]

I am confused and need help, been tapering since November off Klonopin, dry cut using scale. I have been cutting too much every two weeks and it makes me a mess and then I have to hold for weeks.  Was cutting 1.19% every two weeks, then 2.98% then 4.98% and then varied it and now I don't know what I am doing anymore. So I am going to start daily cuts from now on that are consistently but slowly tapering me down.

 

Question: What is the generally accepted percentage (or range or weight, whatever you can suggest) for daily dry cuts for Klonopin? I use dry cutting, a scale, and Excel Spreadsheet. I am at .348 Klonopin right now. I am brain dead today so need help. Thanks!

[[jr...]]

I am confused and need help, been tapering since November off Klonopin, dry cut using scale. I have been cutting too much every two weeks and it makes me a mess and then I have to hold for weeks.  Was cutting 1.19% every two weeks, then 2.98% then 4.98% and then varied it and now I don't know what I am doing anymore. So I am going to start daily cuts from now on that are consistently but slowly tapering me down.

 

Question: What is the generally accepted percentage (or range or weight, whatever you can suggest) for daily dry cuts for Klonopin? I use dry cutting, a scale, and Excel Spreadsheet. I am at .348 Klonopin right now. I am brain dead today so need help. Thanks!

 

Forget %s and and all that other stuff and only taper the amount that keeps your sxs at bay. We now know that a slow taper is the only way to get off with a minimum of sxs. IMHO If I were you I would consider a liquid daily taper.

[[an...]]

I am confused and need help, been tapering since November off Klonopin, dry cut using scale. I have been cutting too much every two weeks and it makes me a mess and then I have to hold for weeks.  Was cutting 1.19% every two weeks, then 2.98% then 4.98% and then varied it and now I don't know what I am doing anymore. So I am going to start daily cuts from now on that are consistently but slowly tapering me down.

 

Question: What is the generally accepted percentage (or range or weight, whatever you can suggest) for daily dry cuts for Klonopin? I use dry cutting, a scale, and Excel Spreadsheet. I am at .348 Klonopin right now. I am brain dead today so need help. Thanks!

 

Forget %s and and all that other stuff and only taper the amount that keeps your sxs at bay. We now know that a slow taper is the only way to get off with a minimum of sxs. IMHO If I were you I would consider a liquid daily taper.

 

The percentage range, 5 to 10%, is a good guideline to follow.  It is recommended that you taper no more than 5-10% every two weeks.  If you are feeling symptomatic, you can decrease the taper rate.  Some can taper a bit faster.  Just listen to your body. 

 

The 5-10% range worked and continues to work for me.  I remember being down to about 0.08 mg of Ativan during my first taper.  I had made a mistake preparing my doses.  I started to feel symptoms, and then realized my mistake.  It turned out I had cut about 15% over over a 2 week period.  I was shocked that I would feel anything at such a small dosage. The rest of the taper was smooth sailing.

 

Anne

 

Anne

[Guest [ba...]]

Badsocref....when you mean crossing over... Do you mean crossing over to liquid as being a bad idea and not working as well as pills?

 

No - I do not mean that crossing over to a liquid (or to a longer-acting benzo) is a bad idea.  It could be a very good thing to do.  I do think that it's better to cross-over prior to tapering than it is to do it in the middle of a taper.  People who cross-over in the middle of a taper usually do so because their symptoms have become pretty significant (sometimes the result of tapering too quickly).  The cross-over itself usually does not help with the symptoms, and I've not seen many people who were in the middle of a taper and tapered more easily off of benzo B than they did from benzo A.

 

Similarly, I think one should decide on a solid or liquid taper at or near the beginning of your taper.  Yes, I realize that many people take some of their med in solid and taper with liquid.  That's not what I'm talking about.  Again, people who decide to switch tapering methods usually do so because they're suffering.  But switching methods is rarely the answer.  Usually, it's more of a matter of tapering at an appropriate rate.

 

Just my observations.  This whole affair often defies logic.

[[St...]]

I have a question about the concept of cutting by 10%. Does that mean that if I'm at 1.85mg of Valium I should be cutting (divided up by the appropriate days) by 10% of 1.85? I've been reducing by a steady 0.01 or 0.02mg a day for a couple of months now. I feel really rung out the last few days.

[[an...]]

Hi Stephen,

 

At your current dose, if you cut 0.01 mg/day for 14 days you have cut 0.14 mg.  This is 0.14 mg/1.85 mg * 100 =  8%

 

If you cut by 0.02 mg/day you will have cut 15% over a 14 day period.

 

Hope this helps

 

Anne

[[Pl...]]

Badsocref....when you mean crossing over... Do you mean crossing over to liquid as being a bad idea and not working as well as pills?

 

No - I do not mean that crossing over to a liquid (or to a longer-acting benzo) is a bad idea.  It could be a very good thing to do.  I do think that it's better to cross-over prior to tapering than it is to do it in the middle of a taper.  People who cross-over in the middle of a taper usually do so because their symptoms have become pretty significant (sometimes the result of tapering too quickly).  The cross-over itself usually does not help with the symptoms, and I've not seen many people who were in the middle of a taper and tapered more easily off of benzo B than they did from benzo A.

 

Similarly, I think one should decide on a solid or liquid taper at or near the beginning of your taper.  Yes, I realize that many people take some of their med in solid and taper with liquid.  That's not what I'm talking about.  Again, people who decide to switch tapering methods usually do so because they're suffering.  But switching methods is rarely the answer.  Usually, it's more of a matter of tapering at an appropriate rate.

 

Just my observations.  This whole affair often defies logic.

 

Okay... That makes sense..... Thank you...

[[ed...]]

I have a question about the concept of cutting by 10%. Does that mean that if I'm at 1.85mg of Valium I should be cutting (divided up by the appropriate days) by 10% of 1.85? I've been reducing by a steady 0.01 or 0.02mg a day for a couple of months now. I feel really rung out the last few days.

 

But at what point does the 10% "rule" go out the window? We'll never get to zero if we only cut 10% of our current dose.  I mean, it would take 12 cuts just to go from 1mg to .3mg following the 10% rule. And it's tough to say "when symptoms say it's okay" when so many of us remain symptomatic the whole way down.

 

Best,

Ed

[Guest [ba...]]

But at what point does the 10% "rule" go out the window? We'll never get to zero if we only cut 10% of our current dose.  I mean, it would take 12 cuts just to go from 1mg to .3mg following the 10% rule. And it's tough to say "when symptoms say it's okay" when so many of us remain symptomatic the whole way down.

 

I'm a fan of a modification to the percent rule in which some aspect of a linear taper is included in the calculation.  That way you actually get to zero while also slowing down as you approach zero.  I call this a hybrid taper since it's neither percent nor linear.  I like a taper rate that is 90% 'percent'; 10% 'linear', but alternative ratios are certainly possible.

[[St...]]

Hi Stephen,

 

At your current dose, if you cut 0.01 mg/day for 14 days you have cut 0.14 mg.  This is 0.14 mg/1.85 mg * 100 =  8%

 

If you cut by 0.02 mg/day you will have cut 15% over a 14 day period.

 

Hope this helps

 

Anne

 

Does this exact math always work when determining what a cut was? I am looking at my past to see how fast I was going. On 7/18 I was on 2.30mg. 30 days later on 8/18 I was on 1.88. What's the math on that?

 

I have 0.42 change over 30 days which is 0.14 per day. Using your math that says, I think, that my rate was 0.42 / 1.88 * 100 = 22℅. Is that correct?

[[St...]]

And if that's what I did above should I bump back up to something higher, stabilize and try again?

[[St...]]

Just going to post log since I last felt truly stable. If someone could help me with the math I'd really appreciate it.

 

7/21/2016 1.00 Morning, 1.30 Evening

7/22/2016 1.00 Morning, 1.28 Evening

7/23/2016 1.00 Morning, 1.26 Evening

7/24/2016 1.00 Morning, 1.24 Evening

7/25/2016 1.00 Morning, 1.22 Evening

7/26/2016 1.00 Morning, 1.20 Evening

7/27/2016 1.00 Morning, 1.18 Evening

7/28/2016 1.00 Morning, 1.16 Evening

7/29/2016 1.00 Morning, 1.14 Evening

7/30/2016 1.00 Morning, 1.12 Evening

7/31/2016 1.00 Morning, 1.10 Evening

8/1/2016 1.00 Morning, 1.10 Evening

8/2/2016 1.00 Morning, 1.10 Evening

8/3/2016 1.00 Morning, 1.08 Evening

8/4/2016 1.00 Morning, 1.06 Evening

8/5/2016 1.00 Morning, 1.05 Evening

8/6/2016 1.00 Morning, 1.05 Evening

8/7/2016 1.00 Morning, 1.05 Evening

8/8/2016 1.00 Morning, 1.05 Evening

8/9/2016 1.00 Morning, 1.05 Evening

8/10/2016 1.00 Morning, 1.03 Evening

8/11/2016 1.00 Morning, 1.03 Evening

8/12/2016 1.00 Morning, 1.00 Evening

8/13/2016 0.98 Morning, 1.00 Evening

8/14/2016 0.96 Morning, 1.00 Evening

8/15/2016 0.94 Morning, 1.00 Evening

8/16/2016 0.92 Morning, 1.00 Evening

8/17/2016 0.90 Morning, 1.00 Evening

8/18/2016 0.88 Morning, 1.00 Evening

8/19/2016 0.86 Morning, 1.00 Evening

8/20/2016 0.85 Morning, 1.00 Evening

8/21/2016 0.85 Morning, 1.00 Evening

8/22/2016 0.85 Morning, 1.00 Evening

8/23/2016 1.00 Morning (accident), 0.85 Evening

8/24/2016 0.85 Morning, 1.00 Evening

[[bu...]]

Hi Stephen,

 

At your current dose, if you cut 0.01 mg/day for 14 days you have cut 0.14 mg.  This is 0.14 mg/1.85 mg * 100 =  8%

 

If you cut by 0.02 mg/day you will have cut 15% over a 14 day period.

 

Hope this helps

 

Anne

 

Does this exact math always work when determining what a cut was? I am looking at my past to see how fast I was going. On 7/18 I was on 2.30mg. 30 days later on 8/18 I was on 1.88. What's the math on that?

 

I have 0.42 change over 30 days which is 0.14 per day. Using your math that says, I think, that my rate was 0.42 / 1.88 * 100 = 22℅. Is that correct?

  No, you divide the cut by the starting dose, not the final dose.

 

.42/2.3=.18, or 18%

[[Le...]]

 

Gard this is the 3rd time I've tried to reply to you. I'm on my tablet and I keep deleting my response. This will be shorter than I intended but I'm about to throw this tablet out the window...I'm blaming it all on the benzos.

 

Diluting a 25mg pill makes sense to me. I can't imagine how difficult it is to accurately cut it into little pieces. Builder helped me tremendously when I switched to liquid. I tormented him with many, many questions. But by the time I started liquifying part of my dose I had a system in place and maintained consistency throughout...yes, consistency is key 

 

I have 2mg pills of Valium.  I hope the small medication amount will work in my favor if I switch to the scale.

 

Signing off before I lose this post too 

 

Hope you rest well this evening, and thanks for taking the time to help out.  Left a/k/a Lefty 

 

Oh no, Lefty, don't throw your tablet out the window! But definitely blame it on the benzos.

 

I do think that the med:filler ratio probably affects how accurate the cuts can be with a scale. I also think some people can just tolerate cutting some meds on a scale and some can't. Quite awhile ago I tapered my trazodone all the way off with a scale. I didn't seem to be as sensitive to the trazodone cuts. Can't remember the med:filler ratio with those. But I do remember how much I hated dry cutting! My son used to live here and would do it for me quite often. Young guy with a steady hand and a great ability to focus. Quite the opposite of me!

 

So onward and upward with my liquid titration. I've done it in a solution with my Librium (which only comes in capsules so made liquid the obvious choice). Now I need to do it in suspension with Q. There are many videos on youtube of people suspending benzos to taper them. I guess that was the original method. And it looks like it worked. After all, these people are able to make youtube videos that were stable and clear in the middle of their tapered, so they must have been doing something right, right? I am just chicken about change. By tomorrow I will probably be feeling less chicken and much better.

 

I posted above about my long journey to this point. It is a marathon, indeed. I have settled down to accepting that somewhat. Slow and steady. Slow and steady. I think a combo of MT and holds (weeks or months, whatever it takes) is probably the best way to do this for people who are very sensitive or poly-drugged. My doctor wants me to take even more Q and other stuff. We had a bit of a spat about that in her office yesterday and then I just pretended to agree with her. She'd also like me to see a psychiatrist but my HMO doesn't have one any more. Just as well. I might have gotten passed off to one of those rapid-taper nuts! 

 

Best of luck to you and I hope you still have your tablet!

 

Gard

Hey Gard, thanks for sharing your journey thus far and your experience and thoughts about the two tapering methods. You've come a long way and I'm so very happy for you! 

 

Two days ago I was certain using the scale was the way to go...now I'm not so sure. I do that a lot these days..can't make a decision to save my life.  You make a good point about shaky hands and cutting up pills...I'd like to have all my fingers when this is over 

 

Poly drugging is a four-letter word in my book. I refuse to take anymore psych drugs. Of course, that is my personal opinion. Thankfully my current pdoc has been respectful of my wishes. Sorry you had a tiff with your doc about the meds, but I'm glad you stuck to your guns. 

 

The tablet still lives ....Lefty

[[St...]]

No, you divide the cut by the starting dose, not the final dose.

 

.42/2.3=.18, or 18%

 

Thanks. So I was going fast there, but not 22℅ fast.

[[an...]]

Hi Stephen,

 

At your current dose, if you cut 0.01 mg/day for 14 days you have cut 0.14 mg.  This is 0.14 mg/1.85 mg * 100 =  8%

 

If you cut by 0.02 mg/day you will have cut 15% over a 14 day period.

 

Hope this helps

 

Anne

 

Does this exact math always work when determining what a cut was? I am looking at my past to see how fast I was going. On 7/18 I was on 2.30mg. 30 days later on 8/18 I was on 1.88. What's the math on that?

 

I have 0.42 change over 30 days which is 0.14 per day. Using your math that says, I think, that my rate was 0.42 / 1.88 * 100 = 22℅. Is that correct?

 

Actually your cut was 0.42 mg/2.30 mg* 100  = 18% 

[[an...]]

Sorry, but I did not see Builder's reply before I posted.

[[Le...]]

StephenD I  used to get this all the time - try taking a hot bath for it - it does help.  I also have used an ice pack as well - and sometimes I take a tylenol. I had this starting at the lower doses and I did and do what Baylissa Johns' said to do - I 'just accept it' and go on with my day.  It hurts very badly sometimes and I get it in my head too (brain zaps) and arms as well - I just chalk it up to benzo withdrawal. It has gotten much better now that I am off of the benzos completely.  I did not stop my taper and though I still get this I feel much better off of the benzo than on it.

 

I guess part of what I'm asking is if for some people the vibrations, electric feeling, whatever came and went. I don't fear this pain. I fear the pain I felt in 2014 when every nerve in my body was on fire. I am trying to be accepting. I just want to try and keep the symptoms to a sane minimum. That was the whole point of the MT.

StephenD, I  experienced the same thing when I was CT'd in 2014. I had to reinstate. Like you every nerve in my body was on fire including my brain. Every time I cut I lived in fear that I would get those intense horrible sensations again. If my skin started burning a little I went into panic mode certain those unbearable sxs  would resurface with a vengeance...they have not. I do experience burning sensations from time, but they are tolerable and nothing compared to what I experienced in 2014. I hope this message brings you some comfort.

 

So I wonder what it means that I'm having the vibrating sensation and muscle tension now. I last had this at around 15mg and down on my first taper. I'm at 1.85mg right now. Does that mean I'm doing better this time because I'm only now experiencing what I last experienced at 15mg?

I don't have any experience at the lower levels of V. That being said, I think it your body is trying to adjust, or needs more time?