Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[ga...]]

V, SG, builder, or anybody who knows,

 

  I could just hold, but if I am going to hold I'd rather be at even capsules. It would make my life so much simpler. And I really need simple right now. 

 

Absolutely agree.  I did several "convenience holds" to accomodate travel plans, and always worked it out so I would be a even tablet doses.

 

Is it too late to go backwards or should I just try to hold where I am?

 

You can updose anytime.

 

And is updosing and going back to capsules at the same time making 2 changes and too much to do? 

 

Its all the  same med.  "...going back to capsules" isn't really any change.

Gard

 

Thanks, builder. The vote is in, and capsules it is!

[[be...]]

One other thing is I'm seriously considering cutting my Q even further, maybe to nothing, before my L. I go back and forth on this decision. Doctor and pharmacist do not agree on which med is more dangerous. If I do continue to cut the Q, I definitely want to be at even capsules of L during the process.

That's what I would do. I agree with Anne.  I wouldn't worry about the updose give its only 1%. It's so small you may not even feel it.  --V

 

Thanks, V. I've been very conflicted about the Q vs L thing. I'm already cutting those darn little Q tablets because the smallest they come is 25mg, but at least I can do 2 weeks at a time and get it over with. My pharmacist was very alarmed to hear how long I had been on Q, even at 25mg and told me to ask my doctor to substitute in another sleep aid, such as Remeron. She said I could taper the Q and add the Remeron at the same time, but, frankly, I'd rather just see how low I can get on the Q rather than introduce yet another drug into the mix. My poor brain has enough to deal with!

 

BTW, the big change is a trauma therapist my doctor wants me to see, and I have turned in the biggest chicken ever just thinking about it, let alone making an appointment!   I kind of prefer my stuffing and ignoring method of therapy. After all, it worked well for me for years! No wait, that's how I ended up on the Xanax.  Scratch that. (Ha, ha, ha. Can you count the poultry references in this post, V?)

Don't leave out the turtle lol. BG would be offended. 

 

Oh, dear, my brain is just too s-l-o-w to come up with any turtle references.

S......l......o.....w "TURTLE GOOD TURTLE" [glow=red,2,300]"CHICKEN GOOD TOO, "FRIED" YUMMY IN THE TUMMY" : : :2funny: [/glow]

[[ga...]]

One other thing is I'm seriously considering cutting my Q even further, maybe to nothing, before my L. I go back and forth on this decision. Doctor and pharmacist do not agree on which med is more dangerous. If I do continue to cut the Q, I definitely want to be at even capsules of L during the process.

That's what I would do. I agree with Anne.  I wouldn't worry about the updose give its only 1%. It's so small you may not even feel it.  --V

 

Thanks, V. I've been very conflicted about the Q vs L thing. I'm already cutting those darn little Q tablets because the smallest they come is 25mg, but at least I can do 2 weeks at a time and get it over with. My pharmacist was very alarmed to hear how long I had been on Q, even at 25mg and told me to ask my doctor to substitute in another sleep aid, such as Remeron. She said I could taper the Q and add the Remeron at the same time, but, frankly, I'd rather just see how low I can get on the Q rather than introduce yet another drug into the mix. My poor brain has enough to deal with!

 

BTW, the big change is a trauma therapist my doctor wants me to see, and I have turned in the biggest chicken ever just thinking about it, let alone making an appointment!   I kind of prefer my stuffing and ignoring method of therapy. After all, it worked well for me for years! No wait, that's how I ended up on the Xanax.  Scratch that. (Ha, ha, ha. Can you count the poultry references in this post, V?)

Don't leave out the turtle lol. BG would be offended. 

 

Oh, dear, my brain is just too s-l-o-w to come up with any turtle references.

S......l......o.....w "TURTLE GOOD TURTLE" [glow=red,2,300]"CHICKEN GOOD TOO, "FRIED" YUMMY IN THE TUMMY" : : :2funny: [/glow]

 

:laugh:

 

Oops, I meant . No eating V's chickens!

[[St...]]

Currently at 2.05 V. My main symptoms are heightened anxiety (at the end of a long run of consistent cuts) or emotional bluntness (worse during a hold). That's been my guiding light in terms of how to proceed. Does that seem reasonable? Still no muscle pain, spasms or memory loss. Those were the main symptoms during my first taper.

[[...]]

SD- sounds great! What rate are you cutting? About how many days do you cut and how many days do you hold? so, do you hold when you get the anxiety? And then when your emotions are blunted, is that when you start cutting again? At the same rate or have you slowed your rate?

What do you mean by emotional blunting? I get a spacy feeling when I'm holding after a while- then when I cut, that spaciness goes away immediately. And the w/d sx's start again.

Would love to know more details about your cut rate and how often you cut or hold! Thanks!

 

But sounds like you totally have it figured out and under control!

[Guest [Jo...]]

I'm buying my own val at moment, cut to 70mg 2wks ago, on toilet every half hour.

Docs and drug agency agreed to taper me, as I got diag with BPD/CPTSD in June, and they are happy I am not using recreationally.

I know its the benzos causing the diarrhoea cos of how things have gone in the past with benzos and diarrhoea, earlier this year.

I'm also tapering pregab, down from 600mg at xmas to 158mg today, nice and slow, have enough of my own supply to continue daily cutting pregab, thats going ok, headache tells me when to reduce cut, but the 2mg cuts lasted a nice long while.

Anyway, im a bit worried about not having control of my own taper, they want me off as soon as poss so they can start BPD therapy, but if I'm mired in withdrawals, they won't get a true reflection of the real me.

They say they dont have the funds to wait for me to taper at my own rate.

All my BPD problems will be magnified,and I am a bit worried about the dairrhoea cos even though I drink a lot of water, you can still get electrolyte imbalance which can lead to death but first, delerium, which scares the hell outta me.

 

[[He...]]

Hi everyone! My first post on this thread. Still looking for a thread where i "fit in". Anyway I think my MT is going pretty well. As I've posted elsewhere, I held for a long time on 13 mg V due to extremely difficult life situations, a trans-Pacific move and then a long search for a doc i could work with. I began my MT finally on July 17th. As the doctor I went to has turned out to be incompetent and very expensive, I'm working out doing this myself. So my taper per his verbal directions has been very slow so far. I thinks in retrospect, that's a good thing.

 

So, what I'm doing now is using a 10 mg pill, a 2 mg pill and a 1/4 of a 2 mg pill along with dropping the liquid from the compounded pharmacy a very small amount daily. I can't explain how much; this was the job of the doctor but over time I've discovered that he set me up for a 3 mg/month taper, after telling him that I could not handle a 1 mg per 2 weeks cut earlier. Luckily I didn't follow the instructions he said he told me initially. Anyway I want to taper about .5-1 mg per month. As my dose gets smaller I know I will have to slow down.

 

I will be firing this doctor and plan to use pills and a solution as a) I cannot trust the guy b) $67 per month for the compounded liquid, plus $160 for a phone consultation with a fool who still has not figured out the massive mistake he made with the compounding pharmacy in the first place seems dangerous and stupid on my part. In the meantime I have one more bottle of liquid coming; since I began cutting the 1/4 pill it will stretch the liquid a lot.

 

However small it was, I was proud, and still am, when I began my first drop since 2013. I feel really good, which I attribute more to huge dietary changes actually but also to the spiritual nature of knowing I'm getting off this drug. I had, and still have, tolerance w/d (maybe now I can call them w/d) but I found that the worst 2, migraine and nausea, had more to do with a wrong diet than w/d. That was another story and the changes were hard but it has helped immensely and I can't emphasize enough that diet really has a lot to do with everything, especially this.

 

I have lived with this for so long that I know that I don't even know the extent of my Sx. For now I can say, muscle pains, anxiety, agoraphobia, depression, over-reaction to stressful situations, inability to multitask, probably are the overall, but getting a little less each day. Oh and using the bathroom, ugh. Finishing with an optimistic note, I know there will be a day when I'm back to myself again and I think of that every day. And get a little closer. Thanks for those who read this, and I hope you all are getting a little closer with as much comfort as possible. Aloha, Charlotte

[[...]]

Hi everyone! My first post on this thread. Still looking for a thread where i "fit in". Anyway I think my MT is going pretty well. As I've posted elsewhere, I held for a long time on 13 mg V due to extremely difficult life situations, a trans-Pacific move and then a long search for a doc i could work with. I began my MT finally on July 17th. As the doctor I went to has turned out to be incompetent and very expensive, I'm working out doing this myself. So my taper per his verbal directions has been very slow so far. I thinks in retrospect, that's a good thing.

 

So, what I'm doing now is using a 10 mg pill, a 2 mg pill and a 1/4 of a 2 mg pill along with dropping the liquid from the compounded pharmacy a very small amount daily. I can't explain how much; this was the job of the doctor but over time I've discovered that he set me up for a 3 mg/month taper, after telling him that I could not handle a 1 mg per 2 weeks cut earlier. Luckily I didn't follow the instructions he said he told me initially. Anyway I want to taper about .5-1 mg per month. As my dose gets smaller I know I will have to slow down.

 

I will be firing this doctor and plan to use pills and a solution as a) I cannot trust the guy b) $67 per month for the compounded liquid, plus $160 for a phone consultation with a fool who still has not figured out the massive mistake he made with the compounding pharmacy in the first place seems dangerous and stupid on my part. In the meantime I have one more bottle of liquid coming; since I began cutting the 1/4 pill it will stretch the liquid a lot.

 

However small it was, I was proud, and still am, when I began my first drop since 2013. I feel really good, which I attribute more to huge dietary changes actually but also to the spiritual nature of knowing I'm getting off this drug. I had, and still have, tolerance w/d (maybe now I can call them w/d) but I found that the worst 2, migraine and nausea, had more to do with a wrong diet than w/d. That was another story and the changes were hard but it has helped immensely and I can't emphasize enough that diet really has a lot to do with everything, especially this.

 

I have lived with this for so long that I know that I don't even know the extent of my Sx. For now I can say, muscle pains, anxiety, agoraphobia, depression, over-reaction to stressful situations, inability to multitask, probably are the overall, but getting a little less each day. Oh and using the bathroom, ugh. Finishing with an optimistic note, I know there will be a day when I'm back to myself again and I think of that every day. And get a little closer. Thanks for those who read this, and I hope you all are getting a little closer with as much comfort as possible. Aloha, Charlotte

 

It's very good that you currently feel well and that you plan to go slow and make small cuts.  These things will all serve you well.

[[He...]]

Thanks SG57. I'll consider that a "welcome to the thread". C

[[Ul...]]

Hi Gardner,

 

From my experience with up doses, I do not think it will be a problem.  It is a 1% up dose.  With liquefying and measuring, you can easily be off by 1 or 2% or even more depending on your measuring devices.  I would go for it.  It will make it much easier to take the whole capsules while holding rather than liquefying and removing 1% each day. 

 

Anne

 

Well, let's see, if one of my measuring devices is letting my daughter do it most days....yup, could easily be off by 1% even using a graduated cylinder and oral syringe.

 

Yes, the liquifying is a nuisance and only worth it if I am making progress. But if I am holding, it's just a depressing reminder that I am taking so much time and trouble for nothing.

 

I'm a bit nervous because when I updosed on the Xanax (so very long ago) it was a tiny amount (probably too tiny) and I did it after 2 days, not 2 weeks.

 

Can you tell I'm nervous if I'm checking the boards every 10 minutes?!

 

One other thing is I'm seriously considering cutting my Q even further, maybe to nothing, before my L. I go back and forth on this decision. Doctor and pharmacist do not agree on which med is more dangerous. If I do continue to cut the Q, I definitely want to be at even capsules of L during the process.

 

Gard

 

Hey Miss Gard!! I'm sure I'm late in replying to this since I haven't been on the thread very much lately, but for what it's worth, I didn't have a problem at all when I had to updose to an "even" pill size (in milligrams...K) for my last surgery and a few other non-fun things that have been going on over the past year+. I would creep down the tiniest bit and then have to updose to a "pill size" dose in order for me to take care of whatever was going on at the time. I never really made any progress because I kept going down a small amount and then have to updose for medical procedures, etc. It really stunk. Where I DID have a problem was when I went back to liquid to try and taper again. My body was really ticked by that, so I had to liquefy one dose (I dose 3x/day) and hold that for a while, then liquefy the second dose and hold that for a while, etc. To each his/her own, huh? That's what worked for me...very gradually with any changes at all. At least Trump kept me entertained during the whole mess!

 

Hugs, my friend.

 

Jeff

[Guest [Jo...]]

I could have been taking any dose of any benzo when I first got hooked again, but 75mg was the highest I was prepared to go to.

It's also the highest the doctors are prepared to presribe, and they want me down to 30 as soon as poss, ignoring the goldn benzo rule, throw away the calendar and taper as per your bodys instructions.

I've started with cuts of 0.05mg, because, as I've spent so long underdosing by half, (2 errors I made, a month or so long each, dosing 40mg val) that any updose will not work, will just bump up my tolerance, so, tiny tiny cuts, and may this terrible house bounding diarrhoea go away.

Apparently charcoal works, but it is related to an enzyme that the liver uses to eliminate diazepam, one of those cytochrome p 450 cpy enzymes, but I forget which one. This means, no good for me.

[[ga...]]

Hi Gardner,

 

From my experience with up doses, I do not think it will be a problem.  It is a 1% up dose.  With liquefying and measuring, you can easily be off by 1 or 2% or even more depending on your measuring devices.  I would go for it.  It will make it much easier to take the whole capsules while holding rather than liquefying and removing 1% each day. 

 

Anne

 

Well, let's see, if one of my measuring devices is letting my daughter do it most days....yup, could easily be off by 1% even using a graduated cylinder and oral syringe.

 

Yes, the liquifying is a nuisance and only worth it if I am making progress. But if I am holding, it's just a depressing reminder that I am taking so much time and trouble for nothing.

 

I'm a bit nervous because when I updosed on the Xanax (so very long ago) it was a tiny amount (probably too tiny) and I did it after 2 days, not 2 weeks.

 

Can you tell I'm nervous if I'm checking the boards every 10 minutes?!

 

One other thing is I'm seriously considering cutting my Q even further, maybe to nothing, before my L. I go back and forth on this decision. Doctor and pharmacist do not agree on which med is more dangerous. If I do continue to cut the Q, I definitely want to be at even capsules of L during the process.

 

Gard

 

Hey Miss Gard!! I'm sure I'm late in replying to this since I haven't been on the thread very much lately, but for what it's worth, I didn't have a problem at all when I had to updose to an "even" pill size (in milligrams...K) for my last surgery and a few other non-fun things that have been going on over the past year+. I would creep down the tiniest bit and then have to updose to a "pill size" dose in order for me to take care of whatever was going on at the time. I never really made any progress because I kept going down a small amount and then have to updose for medical procedures, etc. It really stunk. Where I DID have a problem was when I went back to liquid to try and taper again. My body was really ticked by that, so I had to liquefy one dose (I dose 3x/day) and hold that for a while, then liquefy the second dose and hold that for a while, etc. To each his/her own, huh? That's what worked for me...very gradually with any changes at all. At least Trump kept me entertained during the whole mess!

 

Hugs, my friend.

 

Jeff

 

Ah, Jeff, that sounds so much like my story. Been spinning my wheels for quite some time. Liquifying never used to bother me and now it does. Life keeps getting in the way of tapering. Seems you and I are going to be hanging around here for while, huh? To think I thought I would done by last fall! Ha! The best laid plans of mice and men...

 

And, yes, politics sure is entertaining this year...except for when it's terrifying!

 

Gard

[[ga...]]

Thanks SG57. I'll consider that a "welcome to the thread". C

 

I'll make it double official. WELCOME!

 

Gard

[[He...]]

In youropinion, Advice please

 

The last time I cut, I cut .01 for five consecutive days. I totaled a cut of  .05 all together. My sfx did not appear until the 8th day after the fifth .01 cut.

I don't know if it is .03 mg that was too much, .04 mg  or  05mg? How do I know?

 

Do I cut only  .02 and wait and see if I get sfx,  or even cut  .03 and wait? It seems like it will take forever, but how else can I see what kind of cut my body can handle without sfx other than just trial and error?

 

I wonder why I am getting side effects after such a small cut. Maybe I need to hold longer than three weeks before cutting. Maybe I'll just have to wait a while longer. I can't imagine that I have to make .01 cuts and hold after every .01 mg cut! That's ridiculously small.

 

Heathcliff

[[Sh...]]

In youropinion, Advice please

 

The last time I cut, I cut .01 for five consecutive days. I totaled a cut of  .05 all together. My sfx did not appear until the 8th day after the fifth .01 cut.

I don't know if it is .03 mg that was too much, .04 mg  or  05mg? How do I know?

 

Do I cut only  .02 and wait and see if I get sfx,  or even cut  .03 and wait? It seems like it will take forever, but how else can I see what kind of cut my body can handle without sfx other than just trial and error?

 

I wonder why I am getting side effects after such a small cut. Maybe I need to hold longer than three weeks before cutting. Maybe I'll just have to wait a while longer. I can't imagine that I have to make .01 cuts and hold after every .01 mg cut! That's ridiculously small.

 

Heathcliff

 

Heathcliff. Ive noticed you have asked this same question in many threads now. People are taking the time to reply to you but just be careful not to overload yourself. In the end its only you that knows how to taper and how youre feeling. If you keep asking questions in multiple threads, you're going to get many differing responses. No offense intended, but maybe stick to one or two threads where people can get to know you better and your situation.

[[an...]]

In youropinion, Advice please

 

The last time I cut, I cut .01 for five consecutive days. I totaled a cut of  .05 all together. My sfx did not appear until the 8th day after the fifth .01 cut.

I don't know if it is .03 mg that was too much, .04 mg  or  05mg? How do I know?

 

Do I cut only  .02 and wait and see if I get sfx,  or even cut  .03 and wait? It seems like it will take forever, but how else can I see what kind of cut my body can handle without sfx other than just trial and error?

 

I wonder why I am getting side effects after such a small cut. Maybe I need to hold longer than three weeks before cutting. Maybe I'll just have to wait a while longer. I can't imagine that I have to make .01 cuts and hold after every .01 mg cut! That's ridiculously small.

 

Heathcliff

 

Hi Heath,

 

I have a feeling when you made the last small cut you were still experiencing effects from the first large cut.  Maybe holding for a couple of more weeks will help.  Just take it slow.  Many on valium do feel the effects of a cut on the 9th or 10th day.

 

I think posting your questions on different threads is a good idea. Obtaining several different opinions based on experiences will help you become better informed. So, keep on posting.

 

Anne

[Guest [ba...]]

In youropinion, Advice please

 

The last time I cut, I cut .01 for five consecutive days. I totaled a cut of  .05 all together. My sfx did not appear until the 8th day after the fifth .01 cut.

I don't know if it is .03 mg that was too much, .04 mg  or  05mg? How do I know?

 

Do I cut only  .02 and wait and see if I get sfx,  or even cut  .03 and wait? It seems like it will take forever, but how else can I see what kind of cut my body can handle without sfx other than just trial and error?

 

I wonder why I am getting side effects after such a small cut. Maybe I need to hold longer than three weeks before cutting. Maybe I'll just have to wait a while longer. I can't imagine that I have to make .01 cuts and hold after every .01 mg cut! That's ridiculously small.

 

Heathcliff

 

5 days in a row is a 4% cut.  I know the change in amount (mass) seems really slow, but your dose is pretty low now, so even little cuts end up being a respectable percentage of a cut.  Might try your 0.01 cut every 2 or 3 days.  Just depends on the severity of your symptoms. 

[Guest [Jo...]]

I started a micro taper a few months ago when I was on 75mg, started at 0.05mg cuts a day, but didnt stay on that cut long enough, only a few days, then to 0.1mg, then 0.15mg and got terrible diarrhoea, on throne a dozen times a day.

 

I am planning on starting another micro taper, again at 0.05mg a day, but plan to stay on this cut longer.

 

At the moment, my diarrhoea is so bad, I could sit on the throne all day and something would come out.

My doctors want to get me down from 70mg to 30mg relatively quickly to start therapy for my Borderlilne, which I am now on, did a 5mg cut about just under 3weeks ago, suffering terrible diarrhoea still, which doc prescribed meds for.

 

I've heard loads of people say that daily cuts make symptoms fade, provided they are not too bad, and provided you are on a high enough dose to start with and symptoms are not too bad.

 

I have two questions.

1) Should I go back upto 75mg and start the taper from there?

2) As I progress through the taper, will I be able to eventually increase my cuts?

 

I asked the last question, because my doctors want to tapaer me quickly, and I don't want to become more poorly, as symptoms themselves can cause problems.

Also, I cannot afford to buy my own valium if I have to keep tapering at 0.05mg or less, as the dose gets lower (although I do expect to reduce the cut when I get much lower in the taper)

 

I would dearly love people who have had experience with daily cutting from large amounts of benzo to help please, it would be much apppreciated, thanks

 

[[li...]]

Hey SG and Builder--

Before I consider updosing to stabilize after holding 5 1/2 months with little change,  I wanted to ask opinion about one other thing (CUZ one of my symptoms is fear of everything). When I crossed from ativan last year, I was dosing six times a day.  Somehow I landed at four doses a day Of klonopin despite the half life. When I took it years ago I only dosed at night and I totally get the idea of multiple doses a day (though I'm constantly sedated, fogged, DR'ed, etc) but my doses are uneven. The evening dose is for 8 hours and the doses during the day every 5 1/2 or so. Has anyone ever tried to reduce the number of doses?  Like if I did three a day it would be an even 8 hour dose?  My doc says it will make my sedation and fog Worse. I know someone who couldn't tolerate four doses and went to three. Am I overthinking it?  I'm trying anything tO stabilize before I updose .06 mg of klonopin where I started tapering from this time last year. Don't want to screw this up any more. Love y'all

Liza

[[ed...]]

For what it's worth, I reduced from 3x per day to 2x per day and only needed about a day or so to feel back to "normal" again.

 

Good luck,

Ed

[[bu...]]

Hey SG and Builder--

Before I consider updosing to stabilize after holding 5 1/2 months with little change,  I wanted to ask opinion about one other thing (CUZ one of my symptoms is fear of everything). When I crossed from ativan last year, I was dosing six times a day.  Somehow I landed at four doses a day Of klonopin despite the half life. When I took it years ago I only dosed at night and I totally get the idea of multiple doses a day (though I'm constantly sedated, fogged, DR'ed, etc) but my doses are uneven. The evening dose is for 8 hours and the doses during the day every 5 1/2 or so. Has anyone ever tried to reduce the number of doses?  Like if I did three a day it would be an even 8 hour dose?  My doc says it will make my sedation and fog Worse. I know someone who couldn't tolerate four doses and went to three. Am I overthinking it?  I'm trying anything tO stabilize before I updose .06 mg of klonopin where I started tapering from this time last year. Don't want to screw this up any more. Love y'all

Liza

  K has a half life of 18-50 hrs, and a duration of effect of 6-12 hrs.  Some folks can  probably do fine on  2X dosing, and some probably need 4X.  You need to work out what frequency and  schedule fits your matabolis.

[[li...]]

Thanks Builder. So if I go to three times a day dosing would it increase side effects in theory?  I know probably updosing is the only thing that will work but thought I'd try this first. I think I tested as a slow metabolizer so that would mean I want less doses right?  Sorry I can't figure this out 

[[bu...]]

Thanks Builder. So if I go to three times a day dosing would it increase side effects in theory?  I know probably updosing is the only thing that will work but thought I'd try this first. I think I tested as a slow metabolizer so that would mean I want less doses right?  Sorry I can't figure this out 

 

 

Other than making you life just a tiny bit less complicated, going from 4X to 3X will probably not change anything; it certainly shouldn't have any negative effect.  It just means your blood concentration of med will be a little more constant.

 

If your already a "slow metabolizer", your blood concentrations are probably pretty level, even on 3X

[[li...]]

Thanks Builder. Going to try this first before updosing but as you say it will prI ably have little effect but I've wondered about it for over a year so it's time to try. Thanks for your help.

[[li...]]

And thanks Ed--that was helpful too.