Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

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Hey SG,

 

I hope you're doing okay.

 

I posted in here a couple months ago about my post hold taper and now I'm hoping you have some anecdotal stories of people struggling in a hold.  I'm at 5 months and it's been up and down, but not impossible.  Last 10 days I feel like I'm back to square one and have lost all of my gains from the hold.  10 days ago I was on week 3 of being able to walk a little more and do computer work most of the day without being overwhelmed.  Now all of my mental stuff is way worse and the physical is bad too.  I am fairly non-functional and am couch bound again.

 

When you heard my story before, you suggested before that I hold for six months or more.  I would hold until the cows come home if this didn't feel like tolerance.  I'm in the Long Hold Support Group and so far I haven't read any stories where anyone got WAY worse before they stabilized--windows and waves maybe, but not a tsunami.  Is this unusual?

 

I'm trying to hold out on updosing because I don't know that it will pull me out of it, but if you know more about that, I'd love to hear it.  I've only been able to get from 1.25 mg K that i was updosed to last September to 1.19 where I am now.  I only held for 24 days after my updose and my history for a year before that was very rocky and up and down so I'm hearing from people that I have never fully stabilized (actually when I went up to 1.25 mg K last September I had some afternoons that were really functional for about a week before I started microtapering.  I thought I was stable and I thought that meant I should start my taper right away).

 

Anyway--just trying to decide whether I just need to hold more or updose.  I'm feeling hopeless about either prospect right now and I don't go in any other groups besides here and the Long Hold group so I don't know a ton about long holds or know many other people's experiences with getting worse before better.  Hope that's happened for someone.  Thanks for your input. It means a lot.

 

Hi Liza,

 

I can only tell you my opinion and what I think is going on.  The best model for all of this - the one that makes the most sense to me and fits best with the various seemingly weird nature of symptoms that we see - is the glutamate idea.  To me your problem, my problem, and the problems of many others, including those who CT, is caused by the long-term symptoms of glutamate damage from tapering too fast, and the only way to fix them is time.

 

The nature of these symptoms is to move back and forth, better and worse, boom and bust, with gradual overall improvement over LONG periods of time.  It is easy to get faked out and conclude that we are worsening when really it is just the nature of glutamate symptoms.  I felt decent yesterday; today is awful...my worst day in quite a while, but my worst now is better than my worst six months ago.  On the CT and protracted boards we see the same thing - long slow recovery with lots of back and forth, but an eventual good outcome.  I think you and I have the same problem as they do, just not as severe, and it will respond in the same way to a long hold.

 

So I would not get hung up on whether you are worse than you were.  To me your pattern fits and is typical.  I'm skeptical about updosing being helpful at this point, as glutamate symptoms seem to not be touched by more benzo.  Time seems to be the only answer to these damned things.  The one thing I think we can hang our hats on is the fact that the body knows what to do and all we need to do is hold and wait to allow time for it to happen.  I think you are doing a good thing by holding.  That's my opinion, for whatever it is worth.

 

I know it is hard and can be extremely frustrating and trying at times.  When I feel good it's like the end is just around the corner, only to be thrown backwards the next day and feeling like it is permanent and will never end.  I stopped doubting at some point and I just go with whatever and have faith, and that's the end of it with me.  I think this whole experience has turned me into more of an optimist...out of necessity.  But that's still a good thing.

[Guest [Jo...]]

I'm on 1.2mg of ativan now and 2,5 mg of valium

 

I would like to LT ...scared but the symptoms i have had have been horrendous and pills are cleaarly not evenly distributed so if crossing to liquid should i go the whole liquid at once ...and can i use just water ....?

you  gotta use whole milk to taper or alcohol but i dunno aobut the alcohol side of things, builders your man there.

[Guest [Jo...]]

Pls can someone answer me this, 0.05mg cuts were all I could tolerate at 70mg, if I continue with these cuts, will I be able to tolerate bigger cuts as I heal.

I can't afford financially to buy valium for two years it would take me at 0.05mg cuts, not to mention the smaller ones you make as you go down?

this makes me feel totally doomed.

[Guest [ba...]]

Nobody can predict if you'll be able to do larger cuts or not as you taper.  Sometimes that happens, but you can't count on that.

 

For the time being, I'd just concentrate on making the largest cut that you can safely make without revving yourself up too badly.  Let's not worry too much about how long this is going to take or how much it's going to cost.  Frankly, whatever it costs and however long it takes, it's worth it to get your life back.

[Guest [Jo...]]

Nobody can predict if you'll be able to do larger cuts or not as you taper.  Sometimes that happens, but you can't count on that.

 

For the time being, I'd just concentrate on making the largest cut that you can safely make without revving yourself up too badly.  Let's not worry too much about how long this is going to take or how much it's going to cost.  Frankly, whatever it costs and however long it takes, it's worth it to get your life back.

thats the problem, I dont have the money to buy them for that long.

[[li...]]

Thanks SG, but if it's back and forth in a hold, how do you know if you've ever stabilized enough to start tapering. Things weren't great at 2 months but I feel like I was 75-80% some afternoons and I was holding because I understood from others that stable means you feel that way most of the time for a month or two in a row. I could hold forever and never stabilize. Thanks for your response. Others would say you'll never stabilize without updosing--I know that's what Crash did just before he started tapering. Not looking to updose just feel like I'm looking for a magic month that may not exist. 😰

[[...]]

Thanks SG, but if it's back and forth in a hold, how do you know if you've ever stabilized enough to start tapering. Things weren't great at 2 months but I feel like I was 75-80% some afternoons and I was holding because I understood from others that stable means you feel that way most of the time for a month or two in a row. I could hold forever and never stabilize. Thanks for your response. Others would say you'll never stabilize without updosing--I know that's what Crash did just before he started tapering. Not looking to updose just feel like I'm looking for a magic month that may not exist. 😰

 

 

Yeah, it's not always obvious.  I think it is possible to taper and get better as you go, even if you have existing symptoms.  You might be able to do that.  But there are other times when it is not possible to taper at all without increasing symptoms.  Why does this happen?  I can only guess that there is a point where the excitement level of the neurons is just too much and they react.

 

Perhaps if we are below this point it is okay to taper and GABA can be fixed without perturbing glutamate further, and this also allows glutamate time to heal.  But I believe that holding will eventually lead to all symptoms resolving if you did it long enough.  And also that the longer you hold the better you set yourself up to taper.  But is your five months enough to set up a taper where symptoms will fade?  The only way to know is to try.

[[li...]]

So I'm still holding until all symptoms resolve then "no matter how long it takes" because it WILL eventually happen?  This is what many have said but it's seems hard to believe when I've only felt non-damaged for a handful of afternoons in the last year on klonopin. Thanks for all of your help.

[Guest [ba...]]

I don't think there's any guarantee that holding will resolve all of your symptoms.  It would be nice, but...    fwiw - I don't monitor the long hold thread - maybe there are people who benefit that much from multi-month holds.  It's just hard for me to believe that they reach 80-90% baseline very often.

 

Don't hold 'stability' to too high of a standard.  '65' may have to be a good enough baseline for your taper for a while.

 

Finally, your symptoms may resolve if you up-dose, but you'll have to come back down through this dose eventually. 

[Guest [Jo...]]

emergence of sx or worsening of existing sx signifies a cut reduction in size.

Should be done asap, otherwise the rest of the taper just gets worse and worse, it happened to me, begrudged reducing cut, sx got worse, went back up in dose as brand changed but equivelant to same dose of brand i had beore

[[li...]]

Journey--so you're saying don't hold, just reduce your cut size?  I was nano tapering and crashed and then someone suggested holding

[[bu...]]

I don't think there's any guarantee that holding will resolve all of your symptoms.  It would be nice, but...    fwiw - I don't monitor the long hold thread - maybe there are people who benefit that much from multi-month holds.  It's just hard for me to believe that they reach 80-90% baseline very often.

 

Don't hold 'stability' to too high of a standard.  '65' may have to be a good enough baseline for your taper for a while.

 

Finally, your symptoms may resolve if you up-dose, but you'll have to come back down through this dose eventually.

  I know that long holds seem to be the preferred response here to emerging/worsening symptoms, but lets look at the processes that cause, and resolve, withdrawal discomfort.This is tolerance...the therapeutic effect of the drug is diminished

When you take a benzo over a period of time, the body makes changes to respond to its presence...it lowers the response to the med by down-regulating the receptor system.  .  So when you reduce the amount of drug, the body will begin to respond by repairing the receptor system.

 

Emerging or worsening symptoms are almost always the result of reducing the drug faster than the body can restore the receptor network.  And a hold is simply a time delay to allow the body to upgrade the GABA response to match the current dose level.  But it means you will be symptomatic and distressed while waiting for that to happen.

An updose, OTOH, means you are restoring the dose to a level that matches the body's current GABA response capability.  It will very likely resolve your sxs much more quickly than a long, unpleasant hold.  And since it will allow you to stabilize much more quickly, it not only reduces discomfort, it allows you to proceed with your taper much sooner.

 

With each of my repeated failures while doing C&H, I updosed, and was back to baseline after about 5 days.  When I hit the only real hurdle during my microtaper (at 3.5mg) I 1) held for 10 days and got no relief, then 2) I updosed and  quickly recovered, and was able to continue my taper.

 

JMHO

[[Pe...]]

I have read a lot on this forum about tapering and the different methods.  Also have followed peoples results after some time with different methods.  Hands down I see more success and the least amount of symptoms when I read about daily micro tapering.

 

Im talking about Liquid Titration and Daily Micro Cutting with a Gram Scale. 

 

It seems to be the way to go.  The theory is that when you cut a very small amount each day, you give your body a chance to adjust on a daily basis, instead of sending your body and mind into shock every 2 weeks. 

 

Example:  Say you are taking a 1mg pill a day. You want to taper at a rate of 10% or 0.1 mg every 2 weeks.  Instead of reducing 10% or 0.1mg every 14 days.  You simple reduce at a rate of 0.714% or 0.007 mg a day. 

 

In the example, you are reducing at the same rate but just taking a cut everyday. 

 

I guess I want the discussion opened to talk about the advantages of this method over the cut and hold.

 

***Please note:  I have nothing against cut and hold, it definitely works for a lot of people.  The Ashton Manual and this forum is the reason I have made it this far.***

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

Thank you very much!! I am going to start reading more and I guess that might need to start following you as you really seem to have some very good posts and advises for us!

[[no...]]

I don't think there's any guarantee that holding will resolve all of your symptoms.  It would be nice, but...    fwiw - I don't monitor the long hold thread - maybe there are people who benefit that much from multi-month holds.  It's just hard for me to believe that they reach 80-90% baseline very often.

 

Don't hold 'stability' to too high of a standard.  '65' may have to be a good enough baseline for your taper for a while.

 

Finally, your symptoms may resolve if you up-dose, but you'll have to come back down through this dose eventually.

  I know that long holds seem to be the preferred response here to emerging/worsening symptoms, but lets look at the processes that cause, and resolve, withdrawal discomfort.This is tolerance...the therapeutic effect of the drug is diminished

When you take a benzo over a period of time, the body makes changes to respond to its presence...it lowers the response to the med by down-regulating the receptor system.  .  So when you reduce the amount of drug, the body will begin to respond by repairing the receptor system.

 

Emerging or worsening symptoms are almost always the result of reducing the drug faster than the body can restore the receptor network.  And a hold is simply a time delay to allow the body to upgrade the GABA response to match the current dose level.  But it means you will be symptomatic and distressed while waiting for that to happen.

An updose, OTOH, means you are restoring the dose to a level that matches the body's current GABA response capability.  It will very likely resolve your sxs much more quickly than a long, unpleasant hold.  And since it will allow you to stabilize much more quickly, it not only reduces discomfort, it allows you to proceed with your taper much sooner.

 

With each of my repeated failures while doing C&H, I updosed, and was back to baseline after about 5 days.  When I hit the only real hurdle during my microtaper (at 3.5mg) I 1) held for 10 days and got no relief, then 2) I updosed and  quickly recovered, and was able to continue my taper.

 

JMHO

 

Hi Builder  I'm not being rude or judgemental but you also held for 2 years as well so I don't understand your reasoning regrading long holds. You yourself under took a 2 year long hold until you felt able to continue your taper. So I don't understand why your saying different regarding long holds now although nothing is a one size fits all situation.

 

Also glutamate storms are the problem now more is actually understood  than when Ashton did he research as Neruo plasticity wasn't understood or known about  either  at the time so that puts a totally different spin on the Gabba theory.  It was believed that Brain development was static and its all been proved wrong , the brain and body are both ''plastic'' Like some one else remarked ''Don't fear the Benzo fear the glutamate '' its the glutamate that's problematic in every form of brain injury be it Drug induced or by physical injury.

 

 

 

Love Nova xxx  :smitten:

 

 

 

[[bu...]]

 

Hi Builder  I'm not being rude or judgemental but you also held for 2 years as well so I don't understand your reasoning regrading long holds. You yourself under took a 2 year long hold until you felt able to continue your taper. So I don't understand why your saying different regarding long holds now although nothing is a one size fits all situation.

 

 

 

Love Nova xxx  :smitten:

  Nope, not correct.

 

Trying to do C&H, I tried unsuccessfully to cut from 9mg to 8.5mg.  After each unsuccessful cut, I updosed  and recovered. But after 3 miserable, unsuccessful attempts, I just gave up.

 

I did NOT "hold" for 2 years trying to recover or stabilize, I stayed at 9mg/day dose believing I was destined to continue taking benzo for the rest of my life.  I stayed at 9mg because I believed it was not possible for me stop taking diazepam. I was NOT having any withdrawal sxs, or any other readily apparent problems just continuing to take my benzo.  I was NOT "holding" to recover, I was simply on a "maintenance dose" and was completely stable.

 

When I first learned about liquid daily microtaper, (Thanks, Jana Hill!) I decided this would be the answer, and I would actually be able to stop taking benzos. I took 2 years on a steady dose until I found a way to successfully taper off.

[[...]]

Builder - how much did you updose at 3.5?

[[bu...]]

Builder - how much did you updose at 3.5?

  To 3.7mg

[[...]]

How did you decide that ant of updose builder?

 

Also, updosing seemed to help you pretty quickly. When I have updosed, it takes me a long time to feel better- like on klonopin even if I updosed immediately when I 1st felt sx's, it took 1.5 wks to feel stable. On Librium, I've only updosed once and it wasn't right away- I held a while but things kept getting worse during my hold. When I did finally updose, it took weeks to feel better. what do you make of this?

[[bu...]]

How did you decide that ant of updose builder?

 

 

  I just went back up to last dose level that I felt good at.

 

As I stated above, WD sxs are the result of the level of benzo being less than what the body currently "needs".  Matching to dose to the body's "need" level will usually quickly resolve the discomfort.

[[...]]

I understand what you're saying. But then why would it take so long to feel better when I updose back to the last level I felt good at? Could it be blood levels have fallen and take time to build up again? Or something else?  I just don't understand why it might take 4-5 days after a cut to feel sx's but than much longer than that to feel better after updosing to the last level I felt good. Any explanation? Or any idea how to feel better faster. I hate holding and waiting and would rather feel good and taper more slowly. The holding and waiting brings on the anxiety and despair.

[[li...]]

Builder--thanks for all of this info!  I was in a FB group where the moderator suggested what you did-just go back up to the dose you felt stable at. But I crossed from ativan and klonopin and felt worse after five weeks so I started a Jana Hill type taper. In three months when I felt much worse  I was told to go up to 1.25 mg. it took 2 1/2 weeks to feel somewhat stable in the afternoon so at day 24 I thought that was the best it was going to get so I started an even slower microtaper with no holds and crashed in February. That's when someone suggested a long hold where I am now. I didn't think an updose would help because so many people have said its a crap shoot. I'm at 1.19 so I know going back to 1.25 isn't huge but so many have said an updose backfired on them. Every time I updosed on the ativan I felt better and nearly stable. Most say I crossed to fast and never allowed my body long enough to stabilize, but you're saying, it seems, that I will stabilize by going back where I was at 1.25 to try to pull out of it and then start to taper?

 

Thanks for jumping in here!!

[[bu...]]

I understand what you're saying. But then why would it take so long to feel better when I updose back to the last level I felt good at? Could it be blood levels have fallen and take time to build up again? Or something else?  I just don't understand why it might take 4-5 days after a cut to feel sx's but than much longer than that to feel better after updosing to the last level I felt good. Any explanation? Or any idea how to feel better faster. I hate holding and waiting and would rather feel good and taper more slowly. The holding and waiting brings on the anxiety and despair.

  Just as it takes 5-8 days of dosing for diazepam to reach max concentrations in the body, it takes a similar time for an updose to accumulate to full effect.

[[bu...]]

Builder--thanks for all of this info!  I was in a FB group where the moderator suggested what you did-just go back up to the dose you felt stable at. But I crossed from ativan and klonopin and felt worse after five weeks so I started a Jana Hill type taper. In three months when I felt much worse  I was told to go up to 1.25 mg. it took 2 1/2 weeks to feel somewhat stable in the afternoon so at day 24 I thought that was the best it was going to get so I started an even slower microtaper with no holds and crashed in February. That's when someone suggested a long hold where I am now. I didn't think an updose would help because so many people have said its a crap shoot. I'm at 1.19 so I know going back to 1.25 isn't huge but so many have said an updose backfired on them. Every time I updosed on the ativan I felt better and nearly stable. Most say I crossed to fast and never allowed my body long enough to stabilize, but you're saying, it seems, that I will stabilize by going back where I was at 1.25 to try to pull out of it and then start to taper?

 

Thanks for jumping in here!!

  I absolutely believe everyone should follow whatever taper protocols that works for them, and they feel comfortable with.

 

But in a nutshell...

 

1)  withdrawal sxs/discomfort occur when the body is dependent on a higher level of med than it is getting.

 

2)  The sxs/discomfort will be resolved when the body and the dose are in sync.

 

3)  You can sync slowly by waiting for the body to recover to match the dose, or you can sync more quickly  by matching the dose to your current dependency level. 

 

The guiding priority for my taper was to minimize any discomfort.  So when I was hit with sxs, I chose to soothe the pain with an updose rather than waiting it out with a lengthy hold.. 

[[li...]]

Thanks Builder

[[an...]]

 

I absolutely believe everyone should follow whatever taper protocols that works for them, and they feel comfortable with.

 

But in a nutshell...

 

1)  withdrawal sxs/discomfort occur when the body is dependent on a higher level of med than it is getting.

 

2)  The sxs/discomfort will be resolved when the body and the dose are in sync.

 

3)  You can sync slowly by waiting for the body to recover to match the dose, or you can sync more quickly  by matching the dose to your current dependency level. 

 

The guiding priority for my taper was to minimize any discomfort.  So when I was hit with sxs, I chose to soothe the pain with an updose rather than waiting it out with a lengthy hold..

 

Well put Builder.