Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[Guest [ha...]]

Thank you...just afraid to go down from here; have to find something that works for me;have heard mixed reviews on liquid where some can't bear it....I'm stuck with the math I think....If I buy a gram scale....would I just weigh the piece I cut off and try to cut tat much off each taper? Sorry to keep bugging you...

[[...]]

Thank you...just afraid to go down from here; have to find something that works for me;have heard mixed reviews on liquid where some can't bear it....I'm stuck with the math I think....If I buy a gram scale....would I just weigh the piece I cut off and try to cut tat much off each taper? Sorry to keep bugging you...

 

With liquid you have to know how much liquid equals how much mg benzo dose.  With the scale you have to know how much pill weight equals how much benzo dose: same math.

 

When you use a scale with .5mg K you will be dropping .001g on the scale every cut and if that is too much you'll need to wait a day or two to cut again.

[Guest [ha...]]

Thank you...I appreciate your patience and help with this; sooooo frustrating and hurtful process....I hope I make it through :'(

[[an...]]

You will get through this.  I agree that liquid is more accurate and makes for an easier way to prepare your doses.  For example, if you want to cut 0.001 mg a day  you could dissolve your 0.5 mg tablet into  500 mL of liquid  (one of the liquids SG recommended).  0.5 mg/500 mL = 0.001 mg.  This means you have 0.001 mg in each mL.  Decreasing your dose by 1 mL a day would be a 0.001 mg decrease each day.

 

You could also dissolve the tablet using 250 mL of liquid.  0.5 mg / 250 mL = 0.002 mg    In this case you would remove 0.5 mL (1/2 mL) each day to decrease by 0.001 mg

 

In the same way you could use 125 mL of liquid for 0.5mg/125 mL = 0.004 mg  Each mL would contain 0.004 mg.  In this case you would remove 0.25 mL for each 0.001 mg decrease.

 

As you can see, it is easy to increase or decrease your cut amount. 

 

[[an...]]

Sorry, but I just saw that SG had already given you an example for an 8% cut per month. 

[Guest [ha...]]

Thank you Anne2015...I appreciate the support.

[[Ki...]]

Scale accuracy at the 3 digit numbers is tough unless you have a REALLY good scale. Mine wobbles at any three digit weight. I try to cut .001 every night or every other night and accuracy is really tough, but since I am tapering V its not quite as big of a deal. I would imagine K to be like xanax where that little wobble could make a BIG difference. Even at my large dose Im probably going to liquid once I get to 10 mg and only using one strength pill because I cant help but think the problems that might come when switching to liquid from pills might be lessened by a larger dose. I have no proof of that but it just seems like it makes sense...

[[Kg...]]

Hardtocope: I used the gram scale all the way down. I agree with SG BTW that if you can use the liquid it is way more accurate but I couldn't so I had to use the scale. It is easy.  Weigh  10 of your .5 mg pills of K. Get the weight and divide by 10 to get your average pill weight.  Once you have this as SG said you can only go .001 grams for a cut.  Most of us started out slowly and built up our taper rate. You have not been on the K that long and hopefully you can get down quickly.  Many of us cut 10 out of 14 days  with holds built into the 14 day cycle (not 4 days in a row). Others cut every other day.  When I got below .25  I slowed down to a c/h/h rate and then at the very end sped up to c/h/c/h.  Bennie, Can Do, Clona 21, and I all did the microtaper off of the K. Clona is pretty much healed.  NYC is almost done and she did cut and hold all the way down until the end when she switched to a microtaper. 

 

 

Many of us when we cut just concentrate on the grams vs. the mg. of the dose but if you need to convert the formula is:

 

Your total gram weight you are taking/ gram weight of your pill X .5 = mg you are taking.

 

In answer to Kittybean - yes the scale wobbles but what I did is this. I took 1 of my .5 mg pills that was my average weight.  Every time I cut my pills I used this pill as my 'norm'. I knew it should weigh .172 so if it weighed more or less I used the TARE feature to get the scale to weigh this pill at the .172.  After this I cut my pills. I never re weighed them after I cut them.  I don't think I was impacted by the accuracy because for me K is long acting enough that being off .001 grams did not make much of a difference. I dosed 2 x's per day all the way down.  I don't find it any easier to cut with a gram scale using Valium -which I am doing now.  I cut the same way as I did the K - and I have the same exact s/x all the way down. But that is me. 

 

I hope this helped. 

[Guest [ha...]]

Thank you Kgirl10...I think I'm just thick skulled a frightened at the moment. When I made the large initial cuts, I didn't realize what I was doing...Now, that I've experienced that, it's harder to find the courage....Had huge panic this am...don't sleep much at night....just seem to be spiraling down...I appreciate your helpful words.

[Guest [ha...]]

Thanks Kittybeanbag for the insight; very appreciative of everyone's experiences...

[[Kg...]]

HardtoCope: You did two pretty big cuts just recently. I know you haven't been on K that long and so I want you to be off as quickly as possible since K is such a beast of a drug. With that being said given how you feel the answer I think is to hold for a bit until you feel better and you may even wish to 'go up' perhaps to .75 mg and see how you feel. Then you can do a taper that allows you to go only as quickly as your own body can handle it. Whether it is cut and hold, a gram scale or liquid only you can decide. For now though I would take a deep breathe and just breathe and forget about all this for a bit. 

 

 

[Guest [ha...]]

Thank you Kgirl10..it has absolutely been life altering, shaking and horrific. I wouldn't wish this one anyone except for the Pdoc who prescribed it (kidding..?). Thank you...I probably will stay at this mg for awhile b/c I'm not functional at all...

[[...]]

Kgirl- can you explain again how you weigh your dose? I didn't understand your post. How do you cut w/o weighing?

[[...]]

For everyone- how exactly do you figure out what rate to cut at, what rate your body can handle??

I have a lag time of 5-6 days and I don't understand how to react to an increase in sx's quickly enough. My siggy shows some my taper so far but my attempt at MT failed big Time. Maybe I went to fast? But how do I know what rate to start at next time? I use a scale that is good and weighs to 0.0001 g. Thank you.

[[...]]

For everyone- how exactly do you figure out what rate to cut at, what rate your body can handle??

I have a lag time of 5-6 days and I don't understand how to react to an increase in sx's quickly enough. My siggy shows some my taper so far but my attempt at MT failed big Time. Maybe I went to fast? But how do I know what rate to start at next time? I use a scale that is good and weighs to 0.0001 g. Thank you.

 

Long lag times do have the disadvantage of delayed feedback.

 

You'll need to find your rate by trial and error.  I've always thought it is better to begin very slowly and work your way up by testing each cut for a few weeks.  If people don't know where to begin I usually suggest 8% a month as a starting point.  This rate will work for almost everyone and allows them to get used to the process and hopefully have immediate success, which I think is important.

[[...]]

For everyone- how exactly do you figure out what rate to cut at, what rate your body can handle??

I have a lag time of 5-6 days and I don't understand how to react to an increase in sx's quickly enough. My siggy shows some my taper so far but my attempt at MT failed big Time. Maybe I went to fast? But how do I know what rate to start at next time? I use a scale that is good and weighs to 0.0001 g. Thank you.

 

Hi libr

I agree with SG57; this is a trial and error thing. If you really need to minimize symptoms to stay sharp at work or for other reasons, here's any easy way to find your optimal cut rate with less danger of crashing badly. First of all, get as stable as you can with the least amount of symptoms. Since your lag time is 5-6 days and assuming your symptoms are minimal at a daily dose of 14mg, you might try something like this: Start with a miniscule cut rate you know you can handle, say .01mg/day. Stay at this cut rate well past your lag time, say 10-14 days, then increase your cut rate up to say .015mg/day for another 10-14 days. Keep a daily log of any symptoms and continue increasing your cut rate gradually every 10-14 days until you first begin to feel more symptoms. At this time, go back to the previous cut rate at which you felt reasonably well and hold for 10-14 days. This then is your ideal cut rate, which approximates your healing rate, IMO. The actual numbers here are up to you, but the principle is the same. IMO, this method is the best way to determine your optimal cut rate while minimizing symptoms and decreasing the risk of some major crash.

 

Hope this helps

 

Bart the Healed

[[Kg...]]

Libr: You get your scale. You weigh 10 of your pills.

Divide this # by 10. This is your average pill weight.

As SG has said the lowest amount you can cut using a scale is .001.

So my K pills weighed .172 grams. I dosed .5 mg  2 x's a day.  So my total grams was .172 X 2 = .344

So to drop .001 grams I did this. NOT EVERY DAY. I started as SG said to very slowly -

.172 AM  .171 PM

.171 AM  .171 PM

all the way down.

 

My rate after I went slow ended up being:  10 cuts out of 14 days.  I then slowed down as I got lower. This means adding in more hold days vs. cut days.    I always cut .001 grams on the K.  You need to find the rate of cuts vs holds that works for you.  When you start out very slowly you can do this. If you feel fine speed up a bit, if not slow it down.  I went with were my s/x bearable for me.  Only you can decide this.  I also get windows most days in the afternoon and evenings -when I didn't it meant to me it was time to slow down.

 

For my Valium taper. I only took 2mg of Valium.    My  average pill weighs .175 grams. Valium is much less potent than K and I could cut more at one time. Again I found what worked for me. 

 

I cut .002 grams  of my pills when I cut.  I dosed 2 x's a day - 1 mg on the AM and 1 mg in the PM.  Therefore my TOTAL PILL WEIGHT WAS .175 grams.

 

I cut to .173 total weight.

Next cut was to .171 total weight. 

And on.  I did a c/c/c/hold which = .5 mg of Valium per month.  If you need to go slower you can cut .001 grams or add in more holds. Again it is what works for you.

 

In order to get my cut pills to be consistent I used one pill that I picked out that = my average weight. I always used the same pill. When I set up my scale there is the TARE function which brings the scale to 0.  I put this 'control pill' on it. It should weigh .172 for K or .175 for the V.  So I knew that if it didn't say this weight I had to TARE the scale again - to re set it.  It was only after the scale agreed with my control pill's weight that I cut the pills to the weight I needed to take.

 

I did not go by mg when I used the gram scale I used grams only. But with me saying that given what Bart said if you want to figure out in MG. not grams (grams is the weight of your pills) then here is the formula:

 

To convert grams to mg. for .5mg pills of K:

 

your total gram weight/your average pill weight = # X .5 = mg weight.

So let us say the total pill weight I am taking is  100  grams.

.100/.172 = .581 X .5 = .29 mg of K.

 

For Valium my pill weight is .175.

 

So today for me the total amt of grams I am taking is .024 grams.  My average pill weight is .175 and they are 2 mg pills. 

So:  .024 grams/.175 =.137 X 2=.274 mg of Valium

 

I hope this helped. 

[[my...]]

HardtoCope: You did two pretty big cuts just recently. I know you haven't been on K that long and so I want you to be off as quickly as possible since K is such a beast of a drug. With that being said given how you feel the answer I think is to hold for a bit until you feel better and you may even wish to 'go up' perhaps to .75 mg and see how you feel. Then you can do a taper that allows you to go only as quickly as your own body can handle it. Whether it is cut and hold, a gram scale or liquid only you can decide. For now though I would take a deep breathe and just breathe and forget about all this for a bit.

 

 

:thumbsup:

 

P.S.

Cut and hold has worked for me...the amount/or percentage has changed as I've gotten lower in my dose.  I cut too much at first - like many of us  ... then found BB and began tapering slowly.  I took time off from tapering last summer (you won't have to do this) and then resumed this past fall.  I have taken a month here or there for holds either for travel or because I ran into difficulty.  Please don't be afraid.  You will be alright.  Really. 

 

 

 

[[my...]]

Hi SG 

 

Just stopping by to say hello...

 

Hope you are doing okay.  My cuts are getting easier as I go lower.  A day or three out of each one I have ramped up sxs...but they are different than they used to be and now seem to occur one at a time rather than several all at once  .  Some have dropped off almost completely...shhhh...I don't want to jinx the taper gods  .  For example:  my right "neck into the top of my shoulder" muscle (don't know the name) went into spasm a year ago...no question it was a w/d symptom.  It has plagued me ever since.  Just yesterday I noticed that it wasn't there anymore.  I had tried massage, warm showers, physical therapy exercises, everything. All those things helped but none took the spasm away.  Of course if I concentrate on it, I can find the pain but on the whole it has relaxed!

 

Stuff like that.

 

If anyone needs encouragement that things improve...I can testify that they do.

 

Mana 

 

 

[[...]]

Hi SG 

 

Just stopping by to say hello...

 

Hope you are doing okay.  My cuts are getting easier as I go lower.  A day or three out of each one I have ramped up sxs...but they are different than they used to be and now seem to occur one at a time rather than several all at once  .  Some have dropped off almost completely...shhhh...I don't want to jinx the taper gods  .  For example:  my right "neck into the top of my shoulder" muscle (don't know the name) went into spasm a year ago...no question it was a w/d symptom.  It has plagued me ever since.  Just yesterday I noticed that it wasn't there anymore.  I had tried massage, warm showers, physical therapy exercises, everything. All those things helped but none took the spasm away.  Of course if I concentrate on it, I can find the pain but on the whole it has relaxed!

 

Stuff like that.

 

If anyone needs encouragement that things improve...I can testify that they do.

 

Mana 

 

That's great that they are getting easier.  Hopefully that will continue all the way off.  I'm glad you stopped by.

[[Sw...]]

Hello everyone!!!

I am in a serious tolerance w/d, A full'm immune to pills

taking 6 mg of Klonopin 3 times a day, and gabapentin 300mg 2x1

I have crying fits, convulsions, benzo rage returns, irritable bladder, etc.

I wake up in the morning like a poisoned

what would you give me recommend which one would be the best metod  to take off benzos?

slow reduction, whether in my case was only extended agony?

5 month i got aggressive tremor of the whole body and head, and it is still present

40 days has passed since I back to drugs

From day to day, drugs increasingly weak. I need your help, What do you think?

Thank you all in advance

[[St...]]

Hi SG,  I'm back....I have goofed up and need some advice again....I have listened to a friend and now am mixed up in my crossover to valium....I have 9 mg of v from my doctor, and started crossing the beginning of June....I crossed 2 1/2 doses to 6 mg of v.  I crossed two 10 1/2 ml doses and one 5.35 dose.    I am feeling worse....my friend said she slammed more v in at first to cover the withdrawal sxs of Ativan leaving, so I thought that sounded good....I have 3 1/2 doses left to cross at 10.7 mg each and 3 mg of v left.  I started with .646 of Ativan LT.  I'm just wondering where to go from here.  the v has been in my sxs for 28 days now, and I am not feeling it very much.  somedays a little druggy, but not sedated really, more anxious and nausea....I see my doctor today and am wondering if I should ask for some more v?  maybe 2 mg more?  Is it normal to feel worse during a crossover to v?  I am wondering what percent I am cutting now when I cut 10.7 at once?  Is that too big a cut?  Sorry for the mixed up message, I feel like I really goofed up.....stella

[[...]]

Hi SG,  I'm back....I have goofed up and need some advice again....I have listened to a friend and now am mixed up in my crossover to valium....I have 9 mg of v from my doctor, and started crossing the beginning of June....I crossed 2 1/2 doses to 6 mg of v.  I crossed two 10 1/2 ml doses and one 5.35 dose.    I am feeling worse....my friend said she slammed more v in at first to cover the withdrawal sxs of Ativan leaving, so I thought that sounded good....I have 3 1/2 doses left to cross at 10.7 mg each and 3 mg of v left.  I started with .646 of Ativan LT.  I'm just wondering where to go from here.  the v has been in my sxs for 28 days now, and I am not feeling it very much.  somedays a little druggy, but not sedated really, more anxious and nausea....I see my doctor today and am wondering if I should ask for some more v?  maybe 2 mg more?  Is it normal to feel worse during a crossover to v?  I am wondering what percent I am cutting now when I cut 10.7 at once?  Is that too big a cut?  Sorry for the mixed up message, I feel like I really goofed up.....stella

 

Hi Stella,  Sorry, but I can't make sense of your post.  I remember you were on ativan and ambien, and now you seem to have decided to cross to all V.

[[St...]]

Hi SG, I think I pm'd about the valium crossover.  I am not tapering the Ambien as yet, but my friend (mutual friend) Annie said her dr might give me the valium...He has agreed to cross me over to valium at 9mg.  I am one month into that cross over and feeling pretty unstable.  Another friend crossed over and gave me some advice and I followed it, and I shouldn't have, but the anxiety was so brutal....I talked again to Annie and she told me to ask you where to go from here....I have 3 1/2 doses of Ativan left to cross over to v.  they are each 10.7ml.  I have 3 mg of v left for the crossover....Annie had me crossing over 1 dose every five days or so which was a little fast for me....

 

I have crossed over 2 1/2 doses of Ativan.  10.7ml c/o to 3 mg v,  I did that twice, and then dumped 5.35 of Ativan without adding anymore valium.  It has been about 28 days since I added the v, and 10 days since I got rid of any of the a, because I have been feeling awful....See the doc today and will see if he will give me a couple more mg of v to finish the crossover...

 

I guess I am wondering if I exchange 5.35 a for .75 v, if that will work again.  I will need more v from the doc to do that...also is it common to feel worse in the middle of a crossover?  thanks, hope this is clearer.  I was dosing a six times and still getting way too much interdose sxs.

 

[[...]]

Hi SG, I think I pm'd about the valium crossover.  I am not tapering the Ambien as yet, but my friend (mutual friend) Annie said her dr might give me the valium...He has agreed to cross me over to valium at 9mg.  I am one month into that cross over and feeling pretty unstable.  Another friend crossed over and gave me some advice and I followed it, and I shouldn't have, but the anxiety was so brutal....I talked again to Annie and she told me to ask you where to go from here....I have 3 1/2 doses of Ativan left to cross over to v.  they are each 10.7ml.  I have 3 mg of v left for the crossover....Annie had me crossing over 1 dose every five days or so which was a little fast for me....

 

I have crossed over 2 1/2 doses of Ativan.  10.7ml c/o to 3 mg v,  I did that twice, and then dumped 5.35 of Ativan without adding anymore valium.  It has been about 28 days since I added the v, and 10 days since I got rid of any of the a, because I have been feeling awful....See the doc today and will see if he will give me a couple more mg of v to finish the crossover...

 

I guess I am wondering if I exchange 5.35 a for .75 v, if that will work again.  I will need more v from the doc to do that...also is it common to feel worse in the middle of a crossover?  thanks, hope this is clearer.  I was dosing a six times and still getting way too much interdose sxs.

 

So the ambien remains and you are crossing .6mg A to 9mg V?  This is still very confusing...you're mixing ml and mg amounts and decimal points are off...not labeling units.  I am having a lot of trouble following what you are saying.

 

Ashton puts .6mg A at 6mg V so 9mg is a big updose, but it should be okay.  When the half life is very different, V crossovers generally take 1-2 months.  You need to go at a pace that your body allows, just like tapering.  Give time for the V to build up.  If you are feeling rough, hold and wait for the V to build more.