Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[li...]]

Thanks SG.  You just start to question when you're having mostly waves and very little windows in a hold.

 

I knew Perseverance when I tapered on BB years ago--Ashton cut and suffer that was way too fast for me.  Perseverance and I went through the hell of acute withdrawal together.  She's a smart cookie.

 

I appreciate your response and hope you are doing well.

[[...]]

Thanks SG.  You just start to question when you're having mostly waves and very little windows in a hold.

 

I knew Perseverance when I tapered on BB years ago--Ashton cut and suffer that was way too fast for me.  Perseverance and I went through the hell of acute withdrawal together.  She's a smart cookie.

 

I appreciate your response and hope you are doing well.

 

What a gift she left to this forum...the entire internet, really.

[[la...]]

I wish I knew of this person you are speaking of. anyway Just wanted to thank you for your input...I am in a long hold right now also and feeling not worse but not better.

[[...]]

I wish I knew of this person you are speaking of. anyway Just wanted to thank you for your input...I am in a long hold right now also and feeling not worse but not better.

 

She CTed I think, or tapered too quick.  While here she spent a lot of time going over the latest research on the problem in great detail and wrote it all up in posts, many of which became sticky threads...

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?board=113.0

[[li...]]

She ct'ed a benzo and Prozac that she had taken for 20 years.  We couldn't figure out how her mind could allow her to study the science of this--I still don't understand it 

[[an...]]

I wish I knew of this person you are speaking of. anyway Just wanted to thank you for your input...I am in a long hold right now also and feeling not worse but not better.

 

She CTed I think, or tapered too quick.  While here she spent a lot of time going over the latest research on the problem in great detail and wrote it all up in posts, many of which became sticky threads...

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?board=113.0

 

SG,

 

Thank you for the link.  I had no idea that all of this information was posted here on the forum in one place.  Excellent research.  I look forward to reading this over the next few days.

 

Anne

[[my...]]

Hi SG,

 

So many suffering but just as many doing well.....eventually we will all be OK. 

 

The time is flying and day after tomorrow I will be ready to reduce my daily dose again.  I'm thinking of trying the .006 grams per 10 day plan, as you suggested.  Now, I know "getting to zero" is not the goal, the goal is to feel well and zero will come.  (If that is not a direct quote, then it is an approximation of your wisdom/logic.  )

 

That said..I am wondering about how long this is going to take.  I had done the figuring for 5% and it had me to zero by the end of August.  With my recent month long hold, I pushed that to the end of September/early October.  But somehow, now I am thinking that it will be the end of the year - or at least Thanksgiving. 

 

I know that some BB's devise a 100 day plan at about where I am or will be on Saturday (.31mg - down from 2 mg....a slow and careful taper).  Just looking at the 16%/per month...does that even seem possible/plausible?  I have designed and thrown out at least 10 taper plans along the way.  I will not be wedded to any plan as I will continue a symptom based taper.  But assuming things will continue to improve, as they have, for the most part the lower I have gone...can you make any calculations?  For some reason, I'm drawing a blank.

 

I know Clona and others designed a 100 day taper from around this much K.  Any thoughts??

 

Thanks, as always.  Hope things are going alright with you -- and everyone.

 

Mana 

[[ga...]]

Hey SG,

 

I've been holding 3 1/2 months because even my daily microtaper made me crash (I'm kindled and have a ridiculous history with benzos as you can see below).  I keep getting large waves of symptoms that get a bit better as the day goes on, and maybe one afternoon a week of a 75% window.  How long before you know that a hold won't work to stabilize you and you're just stuck feeling like hell all the way down?  Does everyone stabilize at some point?  Not feeling it today--been doing a week of feeling physically poisoned/sick/shaky on top of all of my other symptoms that caused me to hold.  I'm grateful for the Long Hold Support Group because there are so many anecdotal stories of long holds (3-6 months) getting people to stabilization.  My plan all along has been to gut it out until 6 months and see what happens.  I know updosing is a crap shoot.  I've felt stable on the klonopin for just a few days since I crossed to it a year ago.  Not interested in crossing to anything else because I've been through too much.  Again the question being--is it true what most people say that you just have to hold "as long as it takes" because it WILL happen?  I'm on no other drugs and do very little all day and eat really clean and try to walk the dog ten minutes.  The rest of the day is pretty brutal.  Thanks for sharing anything you've seen anecdotally.

 

Boy, I wish I had a definite answer.  I can only tell you what I think goes on with most people who have gotten too far ahead of healing.  I think there are two types of damage.  We all have under-active GABA systems (and perhaps overactive glutamate systems) caused by taking the drug.  Tapering will fix this, but if we taper too fast, at some point the CNS can't handle the excitement level and problems occur with the glutamate system going haywire, like Perseverance described.  This results in nastier and long-lasting glutamate symptoms, and time seems to be the only answer to them.  So, in my opinion, long holds like you are doing are a very good thing and I believe a hold will keep giving benefit as long as you do it.  It is a slow slow process, but I think if you keep at it you will keep benefiting.  I wish I had had the foresight to do that when I was tapering.  I've been following the Long Hold thread and I really like what you all are doing.  Get rid of the symptoms then do whatever it takes to keep them away - that's a great way to taper these drugs.

 

Interestingly, my primary doctor said something like this to me but in more simple terms. "The brain likes stability. You're not stable. You need to get stable, so no medication changes until you're stable."  Still holding.

 

Gard

[[Va...]]

Hey SG,

 

I've been holding 3 1/2 months because even my daily microtaper made me crash (I'm kindled and have a ridiculous history with benzos as you can see below).  I keep getting large waves of symptoms that get a bit better as the day goes on, and maybe one afternoon a week of a 75% window.  How long before you know that a hold won't work to stabilize you and you're just stuck feeling like hell all the way down?  Does everyone stabilize at some point?  Not feeling it today--been doing a week of feeling physically poisoned/sick/shaky on top of all of my other symptoms that caused me to hold.  I'm grateful for the Long Hold Support Group because there are so many anecdotal stories of long holds (3-6 months) getting people to stabilization.  My plan all along has been to gut it out until 6 months and see what happens.  I know updosing is a crap shoot.  I've felt stable on the klonopin for just a few days since I crossed to it a year ago.  Not interested in crossing to anything else because I've been through too much.  Again the question being--is it true what most people say that you just have to hold "as long as it takes" because it WILL happen?  I'm on no other drugs and do very little all day and eat really clean and try to walk the dog ten minutes.  The rest of the day is pretty brutal.  Thanks for sharing anything you've seen anecdotally.

 

Boy, I wish I had a definite answer.  I can only tell you what I think goes on with most people who have gotten too far ahead of healing.  I think there are two types of damage.  We all have under-active GABA systems (and perhaps overactive glutamate systems) caused by taking the drug.  Tapering will fix this, but if we taper too fast, at some point the CNS can't handle the excitement level and problems occur with the glutamate system going haywire, like Perseverance described.  This results in nastier and long-lasting glutamate symptoms, and time seems to be the only answer to them.  So, in my opinion, long holds like you are doing are a very good thing and I believe a hold will keep giving benefit as long as you do it.  It is a slow slow process, but I think if you keep at it you will keep benefiting.  I wish I had had the foresight to do that when I was tapering.  I've been following the Long Hold thread and I really like what you all are doing.  Get rid of the symptoms then do whatever it takes to keep them away - that's a great way to taper these drugs.

 

Interestingly, my primary doctor said something like this to me but in more simple terms. "The brain likes stability. You're not stable. You need to get stable, so no medication changes until you're stable."  Still holding.

 

Gard

:thumbsup:

[[...]]

 

SG,

 

Thank you for the link.  I had no idea that all of this information was posted here on the forum in one place.  Excellent research.  I look forward to reading this over the next few days.

 

Anne

 

It is excellent.  And to think she wasn't even in that field.  I think what she did is remarkable.

[[...]]

Hi SG,

 

So many suffering but just as many doing well.....eventually we will all be OK. 

 

The time is flying and day after tomorrow I will be ready to reduce my daily dose again.  I'm thinking of trying the .006 grams per 10 day plan, as you suggested.  Now, I know "getting to zero" is not the goal, the goal is to feel well and zero will come.  (If that is not a direct quote, then it is an approximation of your wisdom/logic.  )

 

That said..I am wondering about how long this is going to take.  I had done the figuring for 5% and it had me to zero by the end of August.  With my recent month long hold, I pushed that to the end of September/early October.  But somehow, now I am thinking that it will be the end of the year - or at least Thanksgiving. 

 

I know that some BB's devise a 100 day plan at about where I am or will be on Saturday (.31mg - down from 2 mg....a slow and careful taper).  Just looking at the 16%/per month...does that even seem possible/plausible?  I have designed and thrown out at least 10 taper plans along the way.  I will not be wedded to any plan as I will continue a symptom based taper.  But assuming things will continue to improve, as they have, for the most part the lower I have gone...can you make any calculations?  For some reason, I'm drawing a blank.

 

I know Clona and others designed a 100 day taper from around this much K.  Any thoughts??

 

Thanks, as always.  Hope things are going alright with you -- and everyone.

 

Mana

 

It really is hard to say.  I've seen some people cruise in a few months and others take two years from your dose.  IDK, I think eight months may be some kind of ballpark average from .3mg, but that doesn't mean much to individuals.  TBH, you always seemed to me to be in the "less problematic group" and I kind of expect that you may be able to cruise off, but that's just a next to worthless hunch.  FWIW, if you did 15% a month to .15mg, then did .030mg a month to zero that would be ~9 months.  That seems kind of long in your case.

[[my...]]

Thanks, SG.  I agree that 9 months seems kind of long....but 3 months, or 100 days, is probably not enough time for me.  Somewhere in between, I imagine.  Of course, it will be what it will be...I do think I will be able to make it off smoothly (that is, "cruise off" -- love that image!!!  )....by the end of 2016, if not earlier. 

[[Cl...]]

Hi Mana 

 

You are right, getting to zero is not the goal, but to feel well...or so...when landing at zero. You are Doing a very good taper, your plan is very good! 

 

A Big hug

 

[[my...]]

Hi Clona!

Not sure I really have a plan... ....SG and I are just kind of thinking about the numbers....I am going to switch to .006 g this Saturday and decrease by that much (every 10 days) for a bit and see how that goes...if it goes well, I may reduce the time between cuts.  I’ll just have to play it by ear.

 

Hope you are well 

 

Mana. 

 

 

[[Ki...]]

Im not only microtapering but I am snail tapering. I kept seeing people just whizzing off V a mg as a time and thought oooh this will be easy! But its been a few weeks, and all I do is cut .001 g from my 11 mg total (approx .350g) and I feel it. I have cut .008 in 3 weeks. Was hoping to do at least .015 a month and be done in 2 years. Im wondering if I feel these eensy cuts more because my DNA report said 1 of my 2 valium pathways is screwed and Im an ultra rapid metabolizer on one ( the really ling acting metabolite) but the other pathway- the " temazepam pathway" is only partially messed up. Maybe thats why I can get away with dosing a few times a day. SG said I would probably do better evening out my dose more since Im just under 9 mg at night and just 2 mg divided between each meal but Im apprehensive since I took xanax and ambien for sleep.  Its not awful, just palpitations, irritability and bad visual attentiveness ( running into tree limbs, doors etc) hot and cold stuff and just a general feeling of ickiness. . Anyway, just throwing this info out there in case anyone else is going through anything similar. Good luck to all.

[[ba...]]

'KittyBB,' I used to refer to the speed of my taper as snail like, but now I'm leaning toward 'glacial'-that is, before global warming . I have no idea how fast I metabolize valium, but I've learned going slow is the only way for me. In the past, trying to speed up or hold to a schedule has only kicked my butt. I'm one of those who believe that we can only taper as fast as out re-wiring brain allows us to; if I keep to a pace my brain/body is agreeable with, more or less, I'm hopeful I won't experience the post jump problems many fast taperers are faced with. Only time will tell, I guess. Good luck with your turtle vs. hare taper !

[[Ki...]]

Thanks Babla! I held for about 2 weeks before tapering figuring my crossover was so slow and my descent down the mountain would be slow I only needed 2 weeks hold time. Hopefully it will stabilize as my brain gets used to the idea thats its time to heal. I have a docs appt next month and I need to give her a timeline so thats what I will tell her Im aiming for- 1/2 mg a month for a while. I took the stuff for 16 years so she really should understand this might be a slug taper, and a slug that might need to take a few breaks here and there as well. I felt pretty good during my hold and my hold was after a crossover that ended up at 11 mg V instead of the Ashton equiv of 13.6 so I guess I had a little bit of a head start anyway 

Thanks for the kind words! When I get to 10 Im probably switching to liquid anyway since my scale struggles with these small amounts. Between generic allowlances for differences in dosages and a scale that likes to move around a lot I think I suffer from bouts of inaccuracy anyway

[Guest [ha...]]

Would like help understanding the process of micro-taper....not sure where to begin or how; terrible at math....starting at .5mg...thank you

[[...]]

Sure.  .5mg of what drug?  How do you feel now?

[Guest [ha...]]

Hi...thank you SG57...I brought myself rather quickly down from 1 1/2 to .5 so been sitting at this for about two to three weeks....I don't feel wonderful but managing. My doctor is prescribing an SSRI to help with anxiety while I get off this med...She wouldn't go with the switching to Valium for some reason; thought you wouldn't do two benzos despite my bringing a copy of the Ashton....Anyway, I would be happy if you could describe how to taper in the most simple terms...thanks so much

[[...]]

Hi...thank you SG57...I brought myself rather quickly down from 1 1/2 to .5 so been sitting at this for about two to three weeks....I don't feel wonderful but managing. My doctor is prescribing an SSRI to help with anxiety while I get off this med...She wouldn't go with the switching to Valium for some reason; thought you wouldn't do two benzos despite my bringing a copy of the Ashton....Anyway, I would be happy if you could describe how to taper in the most simple terms...thanks so much

 

Ah yes, I remember from a few days ago.  Short term use and rapid reduction from 1.5mg to .5mg, and you don't want to updose.

 

If you have a .5mg pill it is pretty simple.  Put it into 50ml liquid and get a 1ml and a 10ml syringe and a few good-sealing jars.  The liquid choices are whole milk, PG/water, and alcohol/water.  You could also get it compounded or use Ora Plus.

 

When ready to taper I'd begin with 8% a month which would be a daily cut of .0013mg (.13ml).  In your case, where you have such short term use you might be able to go faster.

[Guest [ha...]]

Thank you...what if I want to do dry cuts? I'm kind of confused by all of the percentages...just not sure how to do it...

[[...]]

Thank you...what if I want to do dry cuts? I'm kind of confused by all of the percentages...just not sure how to do it...

 

You can get a scale and file the .5mg pill, but TBH you'll give up a lot of accuracy and it requires the same math.  To me it is more complicated and a bigger pain.  I support it, but don't recommend it.  If the benzo is V or Librium or Tranxene it makes a little more sense.

 

Once you get familiar with liquids is becomes easy, and this happens fairly quickly.  I would not fear it.  Lots of people here use them and if you ask me, K screams for liquid.  All benzos do really.

[Guest [ha...]]

Thank you SG57...the whole process is so discouraging. I don't know that I have the energy for either...but not sure how I'll get down this ladder otherwise.

[[...]]

Thank you SG57...the whole process is so discouraging. I don't know that I have the energy for either...but not sure how I'll get down this ladder otherwise.

 

They created a nightmare and then walked away in denial of it.  A shameful lack of responsibility.

 

You're a short term user and you managed to get from 1.5mg to .5mg fairly quickly.  That's a good sign.