Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[st...]]

SG57

 

We tried flumazenil, we saw it work for many people while we were there, And fairly certain its a genetic thing and how far gone the CNS is. It seems to work better for street addicts. He was the only person in the clinic experiencing these cold turkey symptoms. It definitley makes sense to us to make this as smooth as can be and arent in any rush especially given what he has already been through.

 

So in your opinion both a straight switch to 2mg tabs or phasing in the 2mg tabs slowly  would be ok?

 

Thanks again

[[st...]]

Thanks gardener99

 

I have been on that website before, my son actually was the one who educated me on withdrawal and is quite well versed, by the time I became involved the damage was done but have learnt a great deal myself. I will have another look at that website.

 

Thanks

[[Su...]]

Have found what Doodle says.  Started with dry cut then as ingot down to 13.5mg I went liquid tiratioñ dropping daily seems much easier on me.  T do believe everyone could react different yet it seems with me the gradual decrease daily allows me to function more.  Easier on the side affects.  Maybe it's easier on the brain.  Going with my body.  Must admit do not like the length of time this takes.  Looking for good results...  Best to everyone..  Tomorrow is a new day.

[[...]]

SG57

 

We tried flumazenil, we saw it work for many people while we were there, And fairly certain its a genetic thing and how far gone the CNS is. It seems to work better for street addicts. He was the only person in the clinic experiencing these cold turkey symptoms. It definitley makes sense to us to make this as smooth as can be and arent in any rush especially given what he has already been through.

 

So in your opinion both a straight switch to 2mg tabs or phasing in the 2mg tabs slowly  would be ok?

 

Thanks again

 

It seems the FDA allows drug companies to be off by about 5% from the advertised dose so this is the order of magnitude we are talking about.

[[li...]]

gardener99,

 

If you don't mind, I have a question for you. I am on K, a horrible drug. All sorts of mixed effects, harsh effect/side effect profile and my health is not good. I'm inclined to say I cannot taper it (although that is maybe a bit too absolute).

 

I did try V. Very, very different drug. K lasts a full 24 hours ('duration of action') but diazepam is much shorter acting and it required at least two full doses with a small dose in between. Very depressing, and it feels like it does most of its work outside the CNS ...

 

I see you are on Librium. Actually, Maya mentioned your name How does the Librium work for you, and how does it differ from K (or V) ? Feel free to send me a PM if you prefer.

[[ga...]]

gardener99,

 

If you don't mind, I have a question for you. I am on K, a horrible drug. All sorts of mixed effects, harsh effect/side effect profile and my health is not good. I'm inclined to say I cannot taper it (although that is maybe a bit too absolute).

 

I did try V. Very, very different drug. K lasts a full 24 hours ('duration of action') but diazepam is much shorter acting and it required at least two full doses with a small dose in between. Very depressing, and it feels like it does most of its work outside the CNS ...

 

I see you are on Librium. Actually, Maya mentioned your name How does the Librium work for you, and how does it differ from K (or V) ? Feel free to send me a PM if you prefer.

 

liberty, I knew I was an ultra-fast metabolizer of V, so I decided to go with L when I crossed from X. Like V, it tends to be sedating and depressing. But as I got lower, that improved. In the USA, L only comes as capsules so you can't dry cut it. Also, L is not very stable as a liquid, so you can't mix up a big batch for a week. I mix my L every night for the next day.

 

I'm surprised that K lasts longer than V for you. K is normally dosed more often than V. Maybe you are an ultra-fast metabolizer of V also.

 

If you were talking 2 large doses and one small dose of V, every day, that might have caused you trouble. It's best to keep all dose as close to the same as possible. Although some people take a large dose at bedtime and seem to be OK with that. SG could probably advise you about that sort of thing.

 

I've never tried K. I have heard a lot of stories of people having bad physical symptoms (muscular) withdrawing from K, so I rejected it as a crossover drug. I went from X to L with a very, very slow crossover and still it was difficult. But I got to a point with the X taper that I absolutely could not continue, so decide to cross. After I crossed to L, I was very depressed for awhile so I started tapering to get rid of that. It was painful, but it worked. Now I am holding because I got ahead of my brain's ability to heal and couldn't deal with the anxiety and neuropathy. The hold is helping. I expect I will start tapering again next month. It will be very slow this time and probably include regular holds.

 

Maybe you can taper your K if you go slowly and include holds. It's worth a try.

 

Hope you found something helpful in there.

 

Gard

[[st...]]

SG57

 

                    Yes can't do much about FDA policies, you get what you get. I understand what you are saying about some people prefering to do a straight switch to 2mg and others phasing them in with the 5mg pills, you have to try it and see how it feels. That seems to be the thing with benzo tapering in withdrawal. Constant monitoring of symptoms and adjustments to suit. I understand about trying to keep it smooth and not pushing through at a faster pace. Although the symptoms don't seem to have a pattern, tending to fluctuate regardless.

 

What dose do you think would be ok for a straight swap to 2mg tabs. He is holding on 15.5 mg at the moment..

 

Also would like to confirm the conversion formula for 2mg tabs.

Is it 2mg ÷ tablet weight.

I forget things

 

Thanks Dave.

 

 

 

[[...]]

SG57

 

                    Yes can't do much about FDA policies, you get what you get. I understand what you are saying about some people prefering to do a straight switch to 2mg and others phasing them in with the 5mg pills, you have to try it and see how it feels. That seems to be the thing with benzo tapering in withdrawal. Constant monitoring of symptoms and adjustments to suit. I understand about trying to keep it smooth and not pushing through at a faster pace. Although the symptoms don't seem to have a pattern, tending to fluctuate regardless.

 

What dose do you think would be ok for a straight swap to 2mg tabs. He is holding on 15.5 mg at the moment..

 

Also would like to confirm the conversion formula for 2mg tabs.

Is it 2mg ÷ tablet weight.

I forget things

 

Thanks Dave.

 

Yes, 2mg/tablet weight is the conversion factor.

 

I don't understand the question about the right dose for the swap?  His dose is 15.5mg.  Each dose could be 5mg+2mg+.75mg.  If you wanted to try to hedge against problems with the switch you could updose a little to cover any possible difference in potency.  For example, if you went up 5%, that would be a dose of 16.275mg.  It's an option.

[[li...]]

Gardener,

 

How long does L last for you ? How often do you take it each day ?

 

Part (but only part) of my problem is that K lasts a full day (more or less), while V is much shorter acting. And K definitely is a problem drug.

 

I'm surprised to hear that L was depressing.

 

 

[[my...]]

Just a quick hello to SG!! 

 

I wanted to let you know that things are going well.  I may be getting to the point of switching to gram reductions rather than percentage...maybe following in WR's footsteps with .006 grams per 7-10 days.  Not sure if that will approximate my (mostly) current 15% a month....

 

I want to begin to look at the last leg of this taper project.  I know people have designed a 100 day taper from around .25-.30 mg of K but I think it will take me more like 5 months than 3...

 

Can you figure what .006g every 7-10 days would look like?  Maybe I shouldn't ask and just do it and see how I feel...    For now, my plan is to make one more 5% cut after this 10 day period and then hold for a couple of weeks (we're traveling on July 2 - this time to visit our little grandchildren and their parents - for 5 days so need to hold before we go).  After that, I don't see any required holds unless I need them to stabilize, but things come up.

 

Once home on July 9 I would begin the fixed gram amount.  If you could give me a sense of the cut and hold pattern using this amount, I would appreciate it.

 

If you look at her signature, WR began the .006g cuts around .30mg and then began a MT at the very end (not looking at her sig now so cannot recall exactly).  As we know, WR has been an amazing example of strength and healing.  So even if I wish to emulate her path, I know I have to taper more slowly and in smaller increments.

 

Hope you are doing alright. 

 

Thanks for all...

Mana 

[[...]]

Just a quick hello to SG!! 

 

I wanted to let you know that things are going well.  I may be getting to the point of switching to gram reductions rather than percentage...maybe following in WR's footsteps with .006 grams per 7-10 days.  Not sure if that will approximate my (mostly) current 15% a month....

 

I want to begin to look at the last leg of this taper project.  I know people have designed a 100 day taper from around .25-.30 mg of K but I think it will take me more like 5 months than 3...

 

Can you figure what .006g every 7-10 days would look like?  Maybe I shouldn't ask and just do it and see how I feel...    For now, my plan is to make one more 5% cut after this 10 day period and then hold for a couple of weeks (we're traveling on July 2 - this time to visit our little grandchildren and their parents - for 5 days so need to hold before we go).  After that, I don't see any required holds unless I need them to stabilize, but things come up.

 

Once home on July 9 I would begin the fixed gram amount.  If you could give me a sense of the cut and hold pattern using this amount, I would appreciate it.

 

If you look at her signature, WR began the .006g cuts around .30mg and then began a MT at the very end (not looking at her sig now so cannot recall exactly).  As we know, WR has been an amazing example of strength and healing.  So even if I wish to emulate her path, I know I have to taper more slowly and in smaller increments.

 

Hope you are doing alright. 

 

Thanks for all...

Mana 

 

Hi Mana, A .5mg K pills is ~.003mg per each .001g of weight so .006g would be .018mg.  Over 10 days that is .0018mg a day, which is ~16% a month.  .0018mg is 60% of .003mg so c/c/h/c/h will do it.  If you were to move up to seven days, it would be 24% a month...that would be quite a step up.

[[my...]]

Thanks...no I definitely don't want to move up to 7 days then!!    In your c/h pattern, is that cutting .001 g each cut?.  I am not sure I wish to MT yet, so I guess what I am asking is if I cut .006 g every 10 days, would THAT also equal the 16% a month you calculated?  Or not?  I'm a little concerned about the fixed gram amount beginning to bite me as I go lower (the percentage gets bigger and bigger).  Assuming I still want to cut/hold until, say I'm at half my current total daily dose, AND make progress...what would you do?  Or do you think I have no choice but to MT/  Is your C/H pattern a version of MT in your mind?

 

Just trying to understand your thinking. 

 

Thanks...will check back in a bit...got to get ready to leave right now. 

 

[[...]]

Thanks...no I definitely don't want to move up to 7 days then!!    In your c/h pattern, is that cutting .001 g each cut?.  I am not sure I wish to MT yet, so I guess what I am asking is if I cut .006 g every 10 days, would THAT also equal the 16% a month you calculated?  Or not?  I'm a little concerned about the fixed gram amount beginning to bite me as I go lower (the percentage gets bigger and bigger).  Assuming I still want to cut/hold until, say I'm at half my current total daily dose, AND make progress...what would you do?  Or do you think I have no choice but to MT/  Is your C/H pattern a version of MT in your mind?

 

Just trying to understand your thinking. 

 

Thanks...will check back in a bit...got to get ready to leave right now. 

 

Oh sorry, I misunderstood what you were asking.  Yes, what I did amounts to .006g over 10 days so taking out .006g and waiting 10 days is still 16% a month.

 

You tolerate the C/H well so you could do that all the way off I'd think.  Percentages still have meaning at your dose so they are still a good guide.  They get kind of screwy at around ~.1-.15mg.  The reason percentages work is they are the same general type of curve that describes the way drug dose (concentration) in the body affects receptors (a sloping decay curve): they are a very useful happy coincidence, but they really are not related to anything physical going on in the body.

 

What would I do?  I'd just keep using whatever cut size I tolerated all the way off and forget about percentages.  If you feel you need a smaller cut, drop the cut to half that size.

[[ga...]]

Gardener,

 

How long does L last for you ? How often do you take it each day ?

 

Part (but only part) of my problem is that K lasts a full day (more or less), while V is much shorter acting. And K definitely is a problem drug.

 

I'm surprised to hear that L was depressing.

 

I have dosed it twice and three times. It seemed to work equally well both ways. Some people dose it at bedtime only.

 

I have heard many people say that the ultra-slow benzos (Such as V and L) are depressing. It was for me at first. Maybe I got used to the drug or maybe it was because I got lower on it. Or maybe it was the flip from X to L that messed up my brain in the first place. At any rate, it's a minor problem now. Anxiety still is number one. Shocking!

[[my...]]

Got it 

 

Did the math and saw that 5% and .006g are approximately the same at this point. If the set amount becomes a problem down the line, I can always decrease, as you said.

 

Thanks, SG 

[[st...]]

SG57

           

                    Hi SG,

                              You said you didn't understand the question about Ben switching to the 2mg tabs.

I'll have another go at explaining what we mean.

He is on roughly 15mg V per day.

He is only taking 5mg tablets at this point in time.

He would like to switch to 2mg tablets at some stage.

He is not sure whether to switch to 2mg tablets now or to wait until his daily total dose gets lower.

Thats it. It has nothing to do with 5% variations.

For instance would he be better off waiting to switch to the 2mg tablets when his total daily dose is down to say 10mg?

 

Thanks hope this is a bit clearer,

Dave.

 

[[...]]

SG57

           

                    Hi SG,

                              You said you didn't understand the question about Ben switching to the 2mg tabs.

I'll have another go at explaining what we mean.

He is on roughly 15mg V per day.

He is only taking 5mg tablets at this point in time.

He would like to switch to 2mg tablets at some stage.

He is not sure whether to switch to 2mg tablets now or to wait until his daily total dose gets lower.

Thats it. It has nothing to do with 5% variations.

For instance would he be better off waiting to switch to the 2mg tablets when his total daily dose is down to say 10mg?

 

Thanks hope this is a bit clearer,

Dave.

 

2mg tablets will always be 2.5x more accurate than 5mg pills no matter the dose, so in a sense he will always be better off with 2mg pills.  The question is, when does it matter.  When is the 5mg accuracy not enough.  That's hard to say.  There is no black and white answer.  You're using a very accurate scale so maybe when you feel the scale accuracy is being stretched?  When the cut size and the scale accuracy limit are about the same size?  If you have enough 2mg pills and supply is not an issue, anytime is a good time to use them.  They enable a finer measurement.

[[Ki...]]

That struck me too. I have been running low on 2 mg pills and since doc has me on 5 mg pills, I think thats one of the reasons I have had a rough week. Before, I was taking 2- 5 mg pills and a half of a 2 mg pill to get to my 11 mg. I held for almost 2 weeks after my cross before starting my microtaper, and switched my 3rd daily dose ( I am one of those pesky rapid metabolizers) from using the 2 mg pill section to an equiv of the 5 mg pill. I think thats one of the reasons Im feeling much more off than I was during my hold because I am only decreasing .001 g every OTHER day. Thats truly micro- but I still feel much worse than I did 2 weeks ago.

[[...]]

That struck me too. I have been running low on 2 mg pills and since doc has me on 5 mg pills, I think thats one of the reasons I have had a rough week. Before, I was taking 2- 5 mg pills and a half of a 2 mg pill to get to my 11 mg. I held for almost 2 weeks after my cross before starting my microtaper, and switched my 3rd daily dose ( I am one of those pesky rapid metabolizers) from using the 2 mg pill section to an equiv of the 5 mg pill. I think thats one of the reasons Im feeling much more off than I was during my hold because I am only decreasing .001 g every OTHER day. Thats truly micro- but I still feel much worse than I did 2 weeks ago.

 

....and the pills themselves are almost certainly not the face value we assume they are.  Whenever a batch or brand is changed you can bet the pill dose is a little different than the one it replaced...up or down.  I think they make them within a ~5% range and call it good.  To them that's fine; to us it is possible trouble.

[[Ki...]]

You can say that again- I am almost tempted to ask for name brand, because it really is a shame they make things harder on us than it already is. And that sucks.

[[ga...]]

I get a generic but always ask for the same company, even if I have to special order. Interestingly, our local pharmacy is much more flexible about this than the big name pharmacies.

[[Ki...]]

My pharmacist at wal mart ( because its the only store near home) told me to go down to a compounding pharmacy near a hospital and order the brand I was on since they switched brands again. I feel really sorry for people who don't know there can be such a big difference in brands.

[[Le...]]

I get a generic but always ask for the same company, even if I have to special order. Interestingly, our local pharmacy is much more flexible about this than the big name pharmacies.

Same here. I use a *mom and pop* pharmacy for my Diazepam. So much better than the big name pharmacies

[[li...]]

Hey SG,

 

I've been holding 3 1/2 months because even my daily microtaper made me crash (I'm kindled and have a ridiculous history with benzos as you can see below).  I keep getting large waves of symptoms that get a bit better as the day goes on, and maybe one afternoon a week of a 75% window.  How long before you know that a hold won't work to stabilize you and you're just stuck feeling like hell all the way down?  Does everyone stabilize at some point?  Not feeling it today--been doing a week of feeling physically poisoned/sick/shaky on top of all of my other symptoms that caused me to hold.  I'm grateful for the Long Hold Support Group because there are so many anecdotal stories of long holds (3-6 months) getting people to stabilization.  My plan all along has been to gut it out until 6 months and see what happens.  I know updosing is a crap shoot.  I've felt stable on the klonopin for just a few days since I crossed to it a year ago.  Not interested in crossing to anything else because I've been through too much.  Again the question being--is it true what most people say that you just have to hold "as long as it takes" because it WILL happen?  I'm on no other drugs and do very little all day and eat really clean and try to walk the dog ten minutes.  The rest of the day is pretty brutal.  Thanks for sharing anything you've seen anecdotally.

[[...]]

Hey SG,

 

I've been holding 3 1/2 months because even my daily microtaper made me crash (I'm kindled and have a ridiculous history with benzos as you can see below).  I keep getting large waves of symptoms that get a bit better as the day goes on, and maybe one afternoon a week of a 75% window.  How long before you know that a hold won't work to stabilize you and you're just stuck feeling like hell all the way down?  Does everyone stabilize at some point?  Not feeling it today--been doing a week of feeling physically poisoned/sick/shaky on top of all of my other symptoms that caused me to hold.  I'm grateful for the Long Hold Support Group because there are so many anecdotal stories of long holds (3-6 months) getting people to stabilization.  My plan all along has been to gut it out until 6 months and see what happens.  I know updosing is a crap shoot.  I've felt stable on the klonopin for just a few days since I crossed to it a year ago.  Not interested in crossing to anything else because I've been through too much.  Again the question being--is it true what most people say that you just have to hold "as long as it takes" because it WILL happen?  I'm on no other drugs and do very little all day and eat really clean and try to walk the dog ten minutes.  The rest of the day is pretty brutal.  Thanks for sharing anything you've seen anecdotally.

 

Boy, I wish I had a definite answer.  I can only tell you what I think goes on with most people who have gotten too far ahead of healing.  I think there are two types of damage.  We all have under-active GABA systems (and perhaps overactive glutamate systems) caused by taking the drug.  Tapering will fix this, but if we taper too fast, at some point the CNS can't handle the excitement level and problems occur with the glutamate system going haywire, like Perseverance described.  This results in nastier and long-lasting glutamate symptoms, and time seems to be the only answer to them.  So, in my opinion, long holds like you are doing are a very good thing and I believe a hold will keep giving benefit as long as you do it.  It is a slow slow process, but I think if you keep at it you will keep benefiting.  I wish I had had the foresight to do that when I was tapering.  I've been following the Long Hold thread and I really like what you all are doing.  Get rid of the symptoms then do whatever it takes to keep them away - that's a great way to taper these drugs.