Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[bu...]]

There are 2 advantages to plastic.

 

1)  Almost completely unbreakable.

 

2)  Numbers and graduations are permanantly molded on, and will not sear/wash off.

[[ga...]]

There are 2 advantages to plastic.

 

1)  Almost completely unbreakable.

 

2)  Numbers and graduations are permanantly molded on, and will not sear/wash off.

 

Seriously, my numbers are going to wash off??!! Oh, that would imply I was washing the thing. Never mind.

[[bu...]]

There are 2 advantages to plastic.

 

1)  Almost completely unbreakable.

 

2)  Numbers and graduations are permanantly molded on, and will not sear/wash off.

 

Seriously, the numbers are going to wash off??!! Oh, that would imply I was washing the thing. Never mind.

 

I'm sure there are wide variations in instrument quality, but some BBs have mentioned that the markings on their cylinders wore off, much like the markings on syringes often do.

 

A proper lab quality glass cylinder would probably not have that problem.

[[li...]]

Thanks SG--I wondered about that too. I may try to hold a bit longer and see if that makes a difference. I was told in a FB group that all your doses needed to be even but what you're saying makes perfect sense--you need a certain amount to cover a certain amount of time. If I decide to try this, do you know how I figure these amounts considering I'm doing liquid?  Right now I'm dissolving 5 .25 K wafers in 60 ml of milk and pulling 3.30 ml (so I'm actually at 1.195 mg)  then splitting into four even doses. I stink at math. After I pull and discard the 3.30 mls, do you know what I would need to pull for each of my four jars if I were to load more at night like you said?

Thanks so much for your help!

Thanks SG!!! I really appreciate the help!

Yeah, I had a blind spot about this for the longest time, then it finally dawned on me that longer time periods need more drug to cover them.  Makes sense, right?

 

Okay, five .25mg wafers, so 1.25mg/60ml is .0208mg/ml...yikes.  You could go to 61.25ml or 125ml to make the math easier.  Tossing 3.3ml (.06864mg).  I get a dose of 1.181mg?

 

For 1.181mg, proportioned doses would be...

 

5:30a: .271mg (13.03ml)

11a: .246mg (11.83ml)

4p: .271mg (13.03ml)

9:30p: .394mg (18.94ml)

 

This is a math mess.  You could do 13, 12, 13, 18.8 to make it simpler.  Or even simpler would be 13, 13, 13, 17.8...close enough and much easier.

[[ga...]]

There are 2 advantages to plastic.

 

1)  Almost completely unbreakable.

 

2)  Numbers and graduations are permanantly molded on, and will not sear/wash off.

 

Seriously, the numbers are going to wash off??!! Oh, that would imply I was washing the thing. Never mind.

 

I'm sure there are wide variations in instrument quality, but some BBs have mentioned that the markings on their cylinders wore off, much like the markings on syringes often do.

 

A proper lab quality glass cylinder would probably not have that problem.

 

Interesting. Mine claimed to be lab quality. We shall see!

[[st...]]

SG57

 

Hi SG,

          Ben has been symptomatic before and after reinstating with a failed taper and cold turkey, in the last 3 years.

Our main concerns are outlined below.

 

1. How long should he hold for.

2. Do you think the 2mg tabs are necessary if so should we phase them in or do a straight switch at 14mg.

3. Does the accuracy outweigh the negatives with the 5% variation on batch change on the 2mg tablets.

    Can you clarify what you meant on your last post when you said now is the time.

 

 

I have put this in point form to try and make it easier for you to answer I know your knowledge is helping a lot of people

and am grateful for your input.

 

[[...]]

SG57

 

Hi SG,

          Ben has been symptomatic before and after reinstating with a failed taper and cold turkey, in the last 3 years.

Our main concerns are outlined below.

 

1. How long should he hold for.

2. Do you think the 2mg tabs are necessary if so should we phase them in or do a straight switch at 14mg.

3. Does the accuracy outweigh the negatives with the 5% variation on batch change on the 2mg tablets.

    Can you clarify what you meant on your last post when you said now is the time.

 

 

I have put this in point form to try and make it easier for you to answer I know your knowledge is helping a lot of people

and am grateful for your input.

 

What is his history and what kind of shape is he in?

 

What I was trying to say was to not allow symptoms to increase.  Do whatever it takes to nip them in the bud and work on getting rid of existing ones.  Others will disagree, but to me the object is to work on getting rid of symptoms rather than getting off.  Getting off will come eventually and the taper will be over at that point - no post-taper time.  To me, it is much more important to feel well.  Others would rather put up with what they can tolerate and get it over with, and I can see why.  I did this myself.  This is a massive challenge to our patience.  When you push through symptoms you end up spending months or even years recovering (like me) after the taper is over, but at least you are done.  In my case it was not worth it.  Not even close.  I went about it the wrong way.  To each their own.

 

The 2mg pills are not necessary.  They are more accurate and may help make things easier, but that's a good point about the trade-offs with the 2mg pills.  It comes down to subjective judgment on your part.  Personally, I'd be inclined to make the switch.

[[an...]]

There are 2 advantages to plastic.

 

1)  Almost completely unbreakable.

 

2)  Numbers and graduations are permanantly molded on, and will not sear/wash off.

 

I ordered this graduated cylinder from Amazon last year and have had no problems with the markings fading or washing off. 

http://www.amazon.com/Eisco-Graduated-Cylinders-Borosilicate-Glass/dp/B00DMHY9IM?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

[[...]]

SG57- do you have your story on here somewhere? You seemed to do a very long taper but you still suffered at the end? What did you "push through"? Do you think your symptoms would have been better if you went even slower? Are there a number of buddies you have heard from who kept symptoms to a minimum while tapering and then had none when they jumped?

 

Thanks- just trying to figure it out. I know everybody is different, but the body is not totally random and there are patterns we can figure out.

[[Fi...]]

Good Morning everyone - I am down to a hair under .5mg of K, (.25mg tablet + .2475 liquid), and while I'm celebrating my progress, symptoms have ramped up the last couple of weeks  .  I would like some help with math please:

 

1.  On May 1, my dose was .585 and on May 31 it was .501 - a cut of 0.084 - what % of cut was this?

 

2.  Could someone explain the easiest way possible for me to calculate percentages!  I just don't get it..

 

Thank you, more support will be needed later, I just want to sort this out first!  Finnie

[[an...]]

Good Morning everyone - I am down to a hair under .5mg of K, (.25mg tablet + .2475 liquid), and while I'm celebrating my progress, symptoms have ramped up the last couple of weeks  .  I would like some help with math please:

 

1.  On May 1, my dose was .585 and on May 31 it was .501 - a cut of 0.084 - what % of cut was this?

 

2.  Could someone explain the easiest way possible for me to calculate percentages!  I just don't get it..

 

Thank you, more support will be needed later, I just want to sort this out first!  Finnie

 

This was a 14% cut.  Amount  cut =  0.585 - 0.501= 0.084 mg 

 

% cut  0.084 mg/ 0.585 mg *100 = 14 %

 

Hope this helps.

Anne

[[ga...]]

SG57- do you have your story on here somewhere? You seemed to do a very long taper but you still suffered at the end? What did you "push through"? Do you think your symptoms would have been better if you went even slower? Are there a number of buddies you have heard from who kept symptoms to a minimum while tapering and then had none when they jumped?

 

Thanks- just trying to figure it out. I know everybody is different, but the body is not totally random and there are patterns we can figure out.

 

libr, Have you tried reading on the Long Hold support group? There is much, much information over there about holds helping to reduce symptoms and allowing people to continue to taper with much less pain. Valley Um on that thread could probably answer your questions about slow tapers with holds leading to good endings. He scours Benzo Buddies for stories of slow tapers with holds and posts quotes from them there. (Pardon me if you have been there and my cog fog doesn't remember. )

 

I do think SG posted about his experience in this thread when asked quite a while back, but it would be hard to dig up because he doesn't say much about himself. My recollection is that after a slow taper he sped up at the end and now is still in protracted withdrawal.

 

Gard (still holding)

[[...]]

SG57- do you have your story on here somewhere? You seemed to do a very long taper but you still suffered at the end? What did you "push through"? Do you think your symptoms would have been better if you went even slower? Are there a number of buddies you have heard from who kept symptoms to a minimum while tapering and then had none when they jumped?

 

Thanks- just trying to figure it out. I know everybody is different, but the body is not totally random and there are patterns we can figure out.

 

Ahh, it's a little painful to relive it.  It was a rough taper and I did not learn how to taper until near the end...it was basically too late.  I got to 3mg V and ran into trouble and decided I had had enough and just wanted to finish, so I pushed through.  That may have been the single worst decision of my life.  I'm still paying for it at 40 months off.

 

And yes, there are many who had good tapers and were pretty much done at zero.  There are also some tapering right now who are doing well.

[[li...]]

Thanks SG--I wondered about that too. I may try to hold a bit longer and see if that makes a difference. I was told in a FB group that all your doses needed to be even but what you're saying makes perfect sense--you need a certain amount to cover a certain amount of time. If I decide to try this, do you know how I figure these amounts considering I'm doing liquid?  Right now I'm dissolving 5 .25 K wafers in 60 ml of milk and pulling 3.30 ml (so I'm actually at 1.195 mg)  then splitting into four even doses. I stink at math. After I pull and discard the 3.30 mls, do you know what I would need to pull for each of my four jars if I were to load more at night like you said?

Thanks so much for your help!

 

 

Yeah, I had a blind spot about this for the longest time, then it finally dawned on me that longer time periods need more drug to cover them.  Makes sense, right?

 

Okay, five .25mg wafers, so 1.25mg/60ml is .0208mg/ml...yikes.  You could go to 61.25ml or 125ml to make the math easier.  Tossing 3.3ml (.06864mg).  I get a dose of 1.181mg?

 

For 1.181mg, proportioned doses would be...

 

5:30a: .271mg (13.03ml)

11a: .246mg (11.83ml)

4p: .271mg (13.03ml)

9:30p: .394mg (18.94ml)

 

This is a math mess.  You could do 13, 12, 13, 18.8 to make it simpler.  Or even simpler would be 13, 13, 13, 17.8...close enough and much easier.

 

SG--I happened to think that I asked about this very thing in the Facebook group that I was in and I was told it's ridiculous to worry about the evening dose being smaller because of the half life of klonopin. But now I'm wondering if my morning symptoms are what they are because my supposedly even dosing is lopsided. Do you know other people who have made this sort of change and it helped reduce their symptoms?  Thanks again for your time.

Liza

[[...]]

 

Yeah, I had a blind spot about this for the longest time, then it finally dawned on me that longer time periods need more drug to cover them.  Makes sense, right?

 

Okay, five .25mg wafers, so 1.25mg/60ml is .0208mg/ml...yikes.  You could go to 61.25ml or 125ml to make the math easier.  Tossing 3.3ml (.06864mg).  I get a dose of 1.181mg?

 

For 1.181mg, proportioned doses would be...

 

5:30a: .271mg (13.03ml)

11a: .246mg (11.83ml)

4p: .271mg (13.03ml)

9:30p: .394mg (18.94ml)

 

This is a math mess.  You could do 13, 12, 13, 18.8 to make it simpler.  Or even simpler would be 13, 13, 13, 17.8...close enough and much easier.

 

SG--I happened to think that I asked about this very thing in the Facebook group that I was in and I was told it's ridiculous to worry about the evening dose being smaller because of the half life of klonopin. But now I'm wondering if my morning symptoms are what they are because my supposedly even dosing is lopsided. Do you know other people who have made this sort of change and it helped reduce their symptoms?  Thanks again for your time.

Liza

 

Some people need to dose 4x a day; others are fine with once.  The HL is not the same for everyone.  I don't know of any specific case where this is true, it just makes sense to me.  I think it is worth a try.  Mornings are known to be a time of higher symptoms...due to whatever.

[[li...]]

Thanks SG

[[B ...]]

SG57- do you have your story on here somewhere? You seemed to do a very long taper but you still suffered at the end? What did you "push through"? Do you think your symptoms would have been better if you went even slower? Are there a number of buddies you have heard from who kept symptoms to a minimum while tapering and then had none when they jumped?

 

Thanks- just trying to figure it out. I know everybody is different, but the body is not totally random and there are patterns we can figure out.

 

Ahh, it's a little painful to relive it.  It was a rough taper and I did not learn how to taper until near the end...it was basically too late.  I got to 3mg V and ran into trouble and decided I had had enough and just wanted to finish, so I pushed through.  That may have been the single worst decision of my life.  I'm still paying for it at 40 months off.

 

And yes, there are many who had good tapers and were pretty much done at zero.  There are also some tapering right now who are doing well.

SG,

 

First of all, thanks for all your help. You have helped many people like myself try to manage this terrifying time in our lives. So sorry you're still suffering. Do you feel like your still healing?

You said you didn't learn how to taper until near the end, and it was too late. Any input into what you might have done differently would be invaluable to many people who are somewhat new. Didn't know you c/o to Valium, would you again?...As you know, what many like myself do now will effect us forever. I completely understand if you don't want to revisit your personal story. Thanks for any help or advice.

 

B strong

[[...]]

 

Ahh, it's a little painful to relive it.  It was a rough taper and I did not learn how to taper until near the end...it was basically too late.  I got to 3mg V and ran into trouble and decided I had had enough and just wanted to finish, so I pushed through.  That may have been the single worst decision of my life.  I'm still paying for it at 40 months off.

 

And yes, there are many who had good tapers and were pretty much done at zero.  There are also some tapering right now who are doing well.

SG,

 

First of all, thanks for all your help. You have helped many people like myself try to manage this terrifying time in our lives. So sorry you're still suffering. Do you feel like your still healing?

You said you didn't learn how to taper until near the end, and it was too late. Any input into what you might have done differently would be invaluable to many people who are somewhat new. Didn't know you c/o to Valium, would you again?...As you know, what many like myself do now will effect us forever. I completely understand if you don't want to revisit your personal story. Thanks for any help or advice.

 

B strong

 

Oh yeah, I'm healing.  There is no doubt at this point.  It is just incredibly slow.  I'm 40 months off and need at least another year.  Maybe even two or three...IDK.

 

I've thought a lot about how I would do it differently if I had it to do again: stay on K, liquify and spread it out, do a symptom-based daily taper summoning the patience of Job lol, and not allow symptoms beyond anything but mild no matter how long it took.  I think I'd throw in holds too - maybe take a month off every six months or so, just to give my brain a rest and get everything caught up.

 

Would I have the patience to actually do it this way?  I think if I had already gone through the mill there is no doubt I would, but if I had never been bitten before I doubt it, TBH.  It's hard to imagine how bad it is until you experience it.  I think you almost need to bitten hard to get it.

[[Hi...]]

Is there anyway to get stable  for someone  that is so severe and kindled? My waves of psychotic akathisia  are so incredibly  traumatic  that i soend weeks  in terror analyzing what just happened  and the longer i hold the worse it gets but cutting  is impossible  i really need guidance im on three drugs but i dont know how they are affecting  eachother  ive tried updosing  the benzos  doesnt hel and updosing methadone bhelps the akathisia  temporarily  but fades and i dont know  if ssnyone here has had the severe akathisia  mind altering  torment  but im still trying  to taper can someone  please try to respond  to my last post about my tapering explain how to handle the weight of pills and ifanyone kknows  about pharmocology and how my meds are interacting  chemically im lost and im getting  worse i would  think that that meand a med is causing  the issues  not withdrawl??

 

Anyone any thought please i know  everyone  answer is get off and heal but thats impossible  when  your symptoms  are so severe akathisia  is not a symptom its a reaction  that has many many symptoms

[[B ...]]

SG,

Thanks so much for sharing, not just advice but your time. I'd like to take it really slow, but with my doctor not being on board with my taper, I kind of have to try and stockpile some K, and be wary of him changing me or cutting me off at any time.

I asked him 1st meeting about benzo withdrawal and he said, there was "no such thing after the drug leaves your system, 2-3 weeks maximum". And I had to wait 4 months to see him after leaving another pdoc who said "cut your dose in half for a week and then quit, no problem".

Hard to find reputable psychiatrists, around here anyway. At leastwith benzos.

Love your line about Job.....

 

Prayers to you,

B strong

[[ar...]]

SG57- do you have your story on here somewhere? You seemed to do a very long taper but you still suffered at the end? What did you "push through"? Do you think your symptoms would have been better if you went even slower? Are there a number of buddies you have heard from who kept symptoms to a minimum while tapering and then had none when they jumped?

 

Thanks- just trying to figure it out. I know everybody is different, but the body is not totally random and there are patterns we can figure out.

 

Ahh, it's a little painful to relive it.  It was a rough taper and I did not learn how to taper until near the end...it was basically too late.  I got to 3mg V and ran into trouble and decided I had had enough and just wanted to finish, so I pushed through.  That may have been the single worst decision of my life.  I'm still paying for it at 40 months off.

 

And yes, there are many who had good tapers and were pretty much done at zero.  There are also some tapering right now who are doing well.

 

Libr,

 

I don't want to jinx this but I have been well/at baseline most of the time.  I got into trouble when my cuts caught up with me and required a hold.  Also 0.20mg hit me hard for some reason and I have no explanation.  Since I recovered from the 0.20mg wave my healing at the end here feels like it's speeding up.  I hope I did not just jinx myself.    My baseline is improving very slightly but I feel well.  Just very minor annoying symptoms that I don't really give much attention to.

[[Fi...]]

Good Morning everyone - I am down to a hair under .5mg of K, (.25mg tablet + .2475 liquid), and while I'm celebrating my progress, symptoms have ramped up the last couple of weeks  .  I would like some help with math please:

 

1.  On May 1, my dose was .585 and on May 31 it was .501 - a cut of 0.084 - what % of cut was this?

 

2.  Could someone explain the easiest way possible for me to calculate percentages!  I just don't get it..

 

Thank you, more support will be needed later, I just want to sort this out first!  Finnie

 

This was a 14% cut.  Amount  cut =  0.585 - 0.501= 0.084 mg 

 

% cut  0.084 mg/ 0.585 mg *100 = 14 %

 

Hope this helps.

Anne

 

This is great - thanks Anne!  Finnie

[[st...]]

SG57

 

Hi SG

          This is a detailed account of Bens history. Thanks for your interest.

He was prescribed valium for muscle spasms after a back injury in 2011 never exceeeding 15mg.

In 2013 he experienced debilitating symptoms after not taking V for a week. He realised why he was getting

symtoms and quickly reinstated. He decided he needed to get off this drug and after stabilising began his

taper. He tapered for 10 months and it was far from smooth. He managed to stay off for 7 months but symptoms become extremely acute. At this stage I didn't know much about benzo's and could only think to get him reinstated hoping to get some stability back in his life. The reinstated dose started small at 1mg but he was getting no relief and it escalated to

15mg. The reinstatement at no point ever stabilised him. Out of complete desperation I took him across the country to try

an experimental treatment which was basically a severe cold turkey. He reinstated a couple of days later but the damage was done and he ended up on 30mg daily. Even at 30mg daily he was not stable. We had to go back to tapering and got him down to 20mg daily with minimal issues. He held at 20 mg daily for a short time and then started a microtaper. He has actually been worse at certain points than he is now even when at higher doses. His symtoms have fluctuated greatly over the past 3 years and dont seem to follow any pattern at all. He actually felt better when he started to taper with both dry from 30mg to 20mg and the micro taper from 20mg untill now. He has rarely felt well in the last 3 years since initially starting to taper, but has periods where he can function at a basic level. It seems whatever we do he is going to have symptoms, we accepted that a long time ago. His nervous system is not in very good shape and he has had drug reactions

in the past, hypersensitive and zero stress tolerance. He also has severe brain exploding anxiety and neuroligical issues that

sometimes developes into rage and aggression. This happens regardless of dose, whether he is holding or tapering. There is no pattern to any of this. He is down to roughly 15.5mg daily and the last 3 days have been particularly rough hence my contact with you again for support and advice. I have to reiterate these symptoms have been there, off and on for the past 3 years.

 

 

 

We were going to start 2mg  tabs when he gets to 14mg daily. He  is going to hold at 15.5 mg daily for a week as from today.

This is why I have asked about holding and also switching to the 2mg tabs. I need some guidance.

As I stated earlier and as you have also said, the 2mg tabs are better as the  dose gets lower.

Ben wants to know whether to switch straight to 2mg tablets total or to phase them in while phasing the 5mg tabs out.

Basically would like a plan that gets him down to say 2x2mg tabs twice daily. We can take it from there.

He is very stressed about this and some experienced knowledge would be much appreciated. I know this is our taper

and eveyone is different. I am sorry about the long message but it gives you a good history for the past 3 years.

 

Thanks so much for helping.

 

[[ga...]]

staunch, so very sorry to hear what you and your loved one have been through. There is a website called recovery-road.org that has some good advice for people suffering in w/d and post w/d and for those who are  helping them through it. I found the information on the site helpful and hopeful. Maybe you will, too.

 

 

Gard

[[...]]

SG57

 

Hi SG

          This is a detailed account of Bens history. Thanks for your interest.

He was prescribed valium for muscle spasms after a back injury in 2011 never exceeeding 15mg.

In 2013 he experienced debilitating symptoms after not taking V for a week. He realised why he was getting

symtoms and quickly reinstated. He decided he needed to get off this drug and after stabilising began his

taper. He tapered for 10 months and it was far from smooth. He managed to stay off for 7 months but symptoms become extremely acute. At this stage I didn't know much about benzo's and could only think to get him reinstated hoping to get some stability back in his life. The reinstated dose started small at 1mg but he was getting no relief and it escalated to

15mg. The reinstatement at no point ever stabilised him. Out of complete desperation I took him across the country to try

an experimental treatment which was basically a severe cold turkey. He reinstated a couple of days later but the damage was done and he ended up on 30mg daily. Even at 30mg daily he was not stable. We had to go back to tapering and got him down to 20mg daily with minimal issues. He held at 20 mg daily for a short time and then started a microtaper. He has actually been worse at certain points than he is now even when at higher doses. His symtoms have fluctuated greatly over the past 3 years and dont seem to follow any pattern at all. He actually felt better when he started to taper with both dry from 30mg to 20mg and the micro taper from 20mg untill now. He has rarely felt well in the last 3 years since initially starting to taper, but has periods where he can function at a basic level. It seems whatever we do he is going to have symptoms, we accepted that a long time ago. His nervous system is not in very good shape and he has had drug reactions

in the past, hypersensitive and zero stress tolerance. He also has severe brain exploding anxiety and neuroligical issues that

sometimes developes into rage and aggression. This happens regardless of dose, whether he is holding or tapering. There is no pattern to any of this. He is down to roughly 15.5mg daily and the last 3 days have been particularly rough hence my contact with you again for support and advice. I have to reiterate these symptoms have been there, off and on for the past 3 years.

 

 

 

We were going to start 2mg  tabs when he gets to 14mg daily. He  is going to hold at 15.5 mg daily for a week as from today.

This is why I have asked about holding and also switching to the 2mg tabs. I need some guidance.

As I stated earlier and as you have also said, the 2mg tabs are better as the  dose gets lower.

Ben wants to know whether to switch straight to 2mg tablets total or to phase them in while phasing the 5mg tabs out.

Basically would like a plan that gets him down to say 2x2mg tabs twice daily. We can take it from there.

He is very stressed about this and some experienced knowledge would be much appreciated. I know this is our taper

and eveyone is different. I am sorry about the long message but it gives you a good history for the past 3 years.

 

Thanks so much for helping.

 

Sorry for the long wait, I was away all day.  Could you say more about the experimental treatment?  I'm curious about that.

 

I've always been inclined to just make the switch and deal with whatever may happen, but others would rather do it slowly.  I can see both ways.  Keep in mind that there may be no difference or even that it might be the 2mg pill batch which has more V in it, so it may be a positive thing...that's possible.

 

That's a rough history and it sounds like his symptoms have gone up.  I think it is important to not push or allow symptoms to get worse.