Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[Te...]]

Does anyone think I could do a daily micro-taper with a blood pressure pill? It's giving me a lot of anxiety, and my doctor said I could get off of it. I'm afraid to go fast. He didn't give me any instructions. It's in capsule form, is already a powder. Terazosin is the name. It's for high bp and also prostate. I'm taking other bp pills.

 

Please help. Thanks.

[[jr...]]

your dr is your best bet when dealing with BP meds.

[[B ...]]

 

Yes, water can work, it just takes more care and skill.  PG/water or alcohol/water are close to the same thing, but get the benzo to dissolve.  Why do you say you can't do PG?  Only a small amount is used.  I hesitate to recommend plain water as results are mixed, but it can work.  Some people do fine with it, others can't seem to get it to work, from what I have seen.

 

Having said that, I would not expect a difference between milk and water, but you could give it a try.

SG,

By saying you wouldn't expect a difference between milk and water, are you saying that milk doesn't bind with the benzo like water? Thought you have said milk, pg, or vodka all make a solution.

Thanks

 

It seems that the switch to any liquid can cause symptoms, so I guess I assume going from solid to liquid delivery is the only problem.  Maybe that's not the whole story.  Maybe there is also a difference between milk and the others.  The whole switch symptoms thing is weird since their is no difference in benzo dose.  We don't understand why.

 

From what I understand, PG/water and alcohol/water make straightforward true solutions: the K dissolves in the PG or alcohol, then remains dissolved in the water.  Homogenized milk also makes a "solution," but it is a more complicated solution since homogenized milk is essentially tiny droplets of fat (and protein?) evenly suspended in water.  The K then dissolves in the fat and I've also seen the word "binding" used.  I'm not sure if or how binding and dissolving are different.  But, at the end of the day, the K is evenly and permanently distributed in the milk, as long as the milk remain homogenized.  "Solution" may not be the correct term to describe homogenized milk.  "Emulsion" is probably more accurate...tiny milk fat droplets and water are intimately mixed and stably suspended, yet they do not mix with each other.

Thanks for replying SG....I thought at one point you said you would have used milk were you to taper again, but then said you'd probably use pg? Thanks again

[[Te...]]

jr50898, he doesn't know how sensitive I am. I doubt if he'd know anything about titration, and I want to do this the very slow way.  He told me to just quit taking it, that the other pills I'm on would cover. No, they don't.

[[jr...]]

if the other pills dont cover it, then I would not stop taking it. BP meds are not something to mess around with, I take 50mg of kosar and I dont dare miss a dose.

[[Te...]]

I can't continue with this anxiety. It's causing more anxiety than is helping.

[[ga...]]

Terry, I'm sorry the BP meds are causing you so much trouble. I know nothing about them, so will defer to jr and agree you should ask your doctor what to do. It might help to have all the important points written out before you go talk to him. I do that myself before I go to my doctor so I know I'm making myself clear and not missing anything.

 

If you're very brave, you could ask about BP meds on the "other meds" board, but I would still lean toward trying to communicate better with your doctor on the subject and following his advice.

 

Gard

[[...]]

Does anyone think I could do a daily micro-taper with a blood pressure pill? It's giving me a lot of anxiety, and my doctor said I could get off of it. I'm afraid to go fast. He didn't give me any instructions. It's in capsule form, is already a powder. Terazosin is the name. It's for high bp and also prostate. I'm taking other bp pills.

 

Please help. Thanks.

 

I know nothing about these meds and what they do or whether it is okay to remove it, but, if you are going to stop it, I would think any drug can be stopped by microtapering.  I mean, why not?  It's just a slow removal process.

[[...]]

 

It seems that the switch to any liquid can cause symptoms, so I guess I assume going from solid to liquid delivery is the only problem.  Maybe that's not the whole story.  Maybe there is also a difference between milk and the others.  The whole switch symptoms thing is weird since their is no difference in benzo dose.  We don't understand why.

 

From what I understand, PG/water and alcohol/water make straightforward true solutions: the K dissolves in the PG or alcohol, then remains dissolved in the water.  Homogenized milk also makes a "solution," but it is a more complicated solution since homogenized milk is essentially tiny droplets of fat (and protein?) evenly suspended in water.  The K then dissolves in the fat and I've also seen the word "binding" used.  I'm not sure if or how binding and dissolving are different.  But, at the end of the day, the K is evenly and permanently distributed in the milk, as long as the milk remain homogenized.  "Solution" may not be the correct term to describe homogenized milk.  "Emulsion" is probably more accurate...tiny milk fat droplets and water are intimately mixed and stably suspended, yet they do not mix with each other.

 

Thanks for replying SG....I thought at one point you said you would have used milk were you to taper again, but then said you'd probably use pg? Thanks again

 

Yes, PG/water and alcohol/water are fairly recent methods around here.  Prior to them I would have tapered K directly using milk.  But now I would use PG/water or perhaps alcohol/water.  There really is little difference between them.  That does not mean I think they are better than milk...they all do the job.  I'd just rather not drink milk and deal with the spoiling, refrigeration, and bacteria aspects of milk.

[[Pl...]]

Hey thanks guys for responding.....Hey SG... I was assuming I would still be using 100 ml of propylene glycol and it just seems like I would be drinking an amount that seems like a lot.... to me anyway for my 3 doses everyday....the thought of ingesting more chemicals bothers me but if it worked better I don't know.....alcohol... fuggheditabout it.....

 

Because there's so many other variables that could have effected my situation its so hard to figure out what's what.....I'm just desperate that maybe there could be something else I've overlooked that just might make this a little easier that perhaps I'm overlooking.....

 

When you say there would be some skill involved with the water could you please elaborate.....I'm assuming you mean to get it to fully dissolve? When I do it I see that it dissolves completely but I do see bits of the crinkly pink coating floating all around and the water is clear with like a pink swirl all thru it ....the water turns pink I guess you could say....

 

The thing with the water is it doesn't dissolve.  That's the problem.  That's what the PG does.  Without PG the K just swirls around in the water like sand, and will eventually fall to the bottom.  Using PG avoids this.  You'd only need 3ml PG, not 100ml...about the tip of your finger to the first knuckle.  Just a tiny bit to dissolve the K.  That's all.  Actually, you could get away with 1ml, but it is such a small amount of liquid I stick with 3.  Anyway, then you'd add enough water to make 200ml for K.  The final liquid is pretty much plain water.

 

Wow.... Okay.... I think I will try this just to see...also I believe this doesn't have to be refrigerated once the doses are made? Unless I want too?  I like that idea very much if that is the case....how long can you go without refrigerating?

 

I also went on amazon and saw two brands of propylene gycol ... I believe they were both 100 percent pg.... One said natures oil and the other said food grade.....does it really matter which one as long as they are 100. Percent pure pg?

 

Thank you so much!

 

 

[[Te...]]

Thanks, gardener, for responding! Maybe the other meds board will have some info.

 

Thanks, SG67! Yes, that's what I wanted, a slow removal of the drug from my system because, like benzos, they cause some bad side effects if you just quit taking them. Then I wouldn't have to updose on the bp pills. Because when I finish with this drug, the anxiety and tachycardia will be gone. Meanwhile I'll have updosed on drugs (if I don't titrate), which cause extra dizziness once the anxiety is gone. Thanks for understanding!

[[bu...]]

 

 

Wow.... Okay.... I think I will try this just to see...also I believe this doesn't have to be refrigerated once the doses are made? Unless I want too? I like that idea very much if that is the case....how long can you go without refrigerating?

 

I also went on amazon and saw two brands of propylene gycol ... I believe they were both 100 percent pg.... One said natures oil and the other said food grade.....does it really matter which one as long as they are 100. Percent pure pg?

 

Thank you so much!

 

Its actually best that you do NOT refrigerate.  1) refrigeration is not needed, and 2)  lowering the temperature reduces the solubility.

[[Pl...]]

 

 

Wow.... Okay.... I think I will try this just to see...also I believe this doesn't have to be refrigerated once the doses are made? Unless I want too? I like that idea very much if that is the case....how long can you go without refrigerating?

 

I also went on amazon and saw two brands of propylene gycol ... I believe they were both 100 percent pg.... One said natures oil and the other said food grade.....does it really matter which one as long as they are 100. Percent pure pg?

 

Thank you so much!

 

Its actually best that you do NOT refrigerate.  1) refrigeration is not needed, and 2)  lowering the temperature reduces the solubility.

 

Okay.... That's very important and good to know....thanks builder... I'm also going to assume as long as I get 100 pure pg that should be good too food grade or not... Unless SG or someone else knows...

 

Thanks again!

[[...]]

 

The thing with the water is it doesn't dissolve.  That's the problem.  That's what the PG does.  Without PG the K just swirls around in the water like sand, and will eventually fall to the bottom.  Using PG avoids this.  You'd only need 3ml PG, not 100ml...about the tip of your finger to the first knuckle.  Just a tiny bit to dissolve the K.  That's all.  Actually, you could get away with 1ml, but it is such a small amount of liquid I stick with 3.  Anyway, then you'd add enough water to make 200ml for K.  The final liquid is pretty much plain water.

 

Wow.... Okay.... I think I will try this just to see...also I believe this doesn't have to be refrigerated once the doses are made? Unless I want too?  I like that idea very much if that is the case....how long can you go without refrigerating?

 

I also went on amazon and saw two brands of propylene gycol ... I believe they were both 100 percent pg.... One said natures oil and the other said food grade.....does it really matter which one as long as they are 100. Percent pure pg?

 

Thank you so much!

 

No, no refrigeration needed.  How long?  As long as standing tap water lasts.  Several days or more?  IDK.  A week?  When you cool it, solubility will get lower so I'm not sure it is a good idea.  You could try it.  If it works it works.

 

I don't really know the difference between pharmaceutical grade and food grade PG.  I'd guess both would be okay, but I don't know.

[[Pl...]]

 

The thing with the water is it doesn't dissolve.  That's the problem.  That's what the PG does.  Without PG the K just swirls around in the water like sand, and will eventually fall to the bottom.  Using PG avoids this.  You'd only need 3ml PG, not 100ml...about the tip of your finger to the first knuckle.  Just a tiny bit to dissolve the K.  That's all.  Actually, you could get away with 1ml, but it is such a small amount of liquid I stick with 3.  Anyway, then you'd add enough water to make 200ml for K.  The final liquid is pretty much plain water.

[/

 

Wow.... Okay.... I think I will try this just to see...also I believe this doesn't have to be refrigerated once the doses are made? Unless I want too?  I like that idea very much if that is the case....how long can you go without refrigerating?

 

I also went on amazon and saw two brands of propylene gycol ... I believe they were both 100 percent pg.... One said natures oil and the other said food grade.....does it really matter which one as long as they are 100. Percent pure pg?

 

Thank you so much!

 

No, no refrigeration needed.  How long?  As long as standing tap water lasts.  Several days or more?  IDK.  A week?  When you cool it, solubility will get lower so I'm not sure it is a good idea.  You could try it.  If it works it works.

 

I don't really know the difference between pharmaceutical grade and food grade PG.  I'd guess both would be okay, but I don't know.

 

Pharmaceutical grade sounds suitable for this purpose......Forgot about that one... Maybe switching to this will make a difference maybe not.... If things stay the same I still like the idea of not being tied to a refrigerator and I hate milk..so ill just leave my doses out on the counter tucked away.. I remember inkked  girl I think it was saying milk gave her automatic cold turkey response and pg didnt.....who knows with this stuff.....

 

I just hope switching to another liquid now doesn't upset things too much... If not only for a few days...

 

Again my many thanks to you so so much....(((.      ))))

[[ar...]]

Does anyone think I could do a daily micro-taper with a blood pressure pill? It's giving me a lot of anxiety, and my doctor said I could get off of it. I'm afraid to go fast. He didn't give me any instructions. It's in capsule form, is already a powder. Terazosin is the name. It's for high bp and also prostate. I'm taking other bp pills.

 

Please help. Thanks.

 

I know nothing about these meds and what they do or whether it is okay to remove it, but, if you are going to stop it, I would think any drug can be stopped by microtapering.  I mean, why not?  It's just a slow removal process.

 

When I'm done with this Valium taper I'll be tapering Prilosec and then I'll be completely med free except for maybe Tums when needed.  The Prilosec capsules have 18 beads in them.  I open the capsule and remove a bead and put the capsule back together.  I'll be removing a bead every two weeks.  Microtapering Prilosec! 

[[Ki...]]

I thought it was silly to go to liquids at 11 mg valium but now with my latest boneheaded mistake Im starting to think it might be a good idea for me. I recently crossed from xanax/ambien to valium over a 14 or so week period, and held at 11 mg v for a week to go on a trip. While it wasn't always easy, it was GOOD - I got to scatter my Moms ashes at sea and I went on a HELICOPTER ( and Im scared of heights)! I even got caught in a few cancellations/delays on return and fared ok.  So imagine my disappointment to come home and SCREW UP a dose. Not huge, but probably instead of 11 I got like 10.5 on Tues- no idea why I made yet another obvious mistake. Since then Ive had headaches, not slept right, jelly legs, and just generally feeling nasty. I got right back on track on my sort of microtaper of about 1% a day but still feel CRAP days later.  Im a very rapid metabolizer so I dont know if that makes me more sensitive or not. since Im so bad at math I can even mess up ONE PERCENT, will going to liquid sooner rather than later be of any help? Probably not if I keep messing up...

[[bu...]]

I thought it was silly to go to liquids at 11 mg valium but now with my latest boneheaded mistake Im starting to think it might be a good idea for me. I recently crossed from xanax/ambien to valium over a 14 or so week period, and held at 11 mg v for a week to go on a trip. While it wasn't always easy, it was GOOD - I got to scatter my Moms ashes at sea and I went on a HELICOPTER ( and Im scared of heights)! I even got caught in a few cancellations/delays on return and fared ok.  So imagine my disappointment to come home and SCREW UP a dose. Not huge, but probably instead of 11 I got like 10.5 on Tues- no idea why I made yet another obvious mistake. Since then Ive had headaches, not slept right, jelly legs, and just generally feeling nasty. I got right back on track on my sort of microtaper of about 1% a day but still feel CRAP days later.  Im a very rapid metabolizer so I dont know if that makes me more sensitive or not. since Im so bad at math I can even mess up ONE PERCENT, will going to liquid sooner rather than later be of any help? Probably not if I keep messing up...

 

I did C&H from 15 down to 9, then did daily liquid taper from 9 down.  If I had to do it all over, I would do liquid daily taper from the beginning.  Much more tolerable.

[[st...]]

SG57

 

Hi SG,

            Thanks for helping me with my sons tapering and math

Currently he is cutting 1.6 mg per month and is currently at roughly 15.5mg daily.

Thinking of changing to 2mg pills + 5mg pills at 14mg daily which is soon.

Dose will be twice daily × 7mg mixing 5mg and 2mg tablets to start.

I just want to clarify formula.

5mg tablet ÷ pill weight which is .1680 = 29.8

2mg tablet ÷ pill weight which is .1680 =11.9

Would also like your opinion on c/h/c/h

and  c/c/h methods with holding and when to implement these.

Aside from the obvious being symptoms.

Was thinking of 1.4 mg cuts per month once down to 15mg.

Which will keep it under 10%.

 

 

 

[[Ki...]]

I thought it was silly to go to liquids at 11 mg valium ... will going to liquid sooner rather than later be of any help? Probably not if I keep messing up...

 

I did C&H from 15 down to 9, then did daily liquid taper from 9 down.  If I had to do it all over, I would do liquid daily taper from the beginning.  Much more tolerable.

 

I think I need to. I wasnt keen on taking liquids with me since I dose at each meal and bedtime but whatever works best Im willing to do.

[[Hi...]]

I have a auestion. When taperi g with scale. What do you do if you tryi g to drop by .001 or 2 but the pills are more or less .005 to 10 off from eachother

 

Do you subtract from the weight on the scale or or make them weigh the same

[[...]]

Hi SG57

 

Hi SG,

            Thanks for helping me with my sons tapering and math

Currently he is cutting 1.6 mg per month and is currently at roughly 15.5mg daily.

Thinking of changing to 2mg pills + 5mg pills at 14mg daily which is soon.

Dose will be twice daily × 7mg mixing 5mg and 2mg tablets to start.

I just want to clarify formula.

5mg tablet ÷ pill weight which is .1680 = 29.8

2mg tablet ÷ pill weight which is .1680 =11.9

Would also like your opinion on c/h/c/h

and  c/c/h methods with holding and when to implement these.

Aside from the obvious being symptoms.

Was thinking of 1.4 mg cuts per month once down to 15mg.

Which will keep it under 10%.

 

Hi, It's been a while.  How is his taper going?

 

Be aware that pills are typically not made very precisely for our standards so if you change pill brand or batch your son may feel it.  They can vary up to 5% and sometimes a change can result in a cut.  It can also sometimes result in an updose.  Be ready for that if a pill change is involved.

 

If you use 5mg and 2mg pills I'd leave the 5mg alone and just taper the two 2mg pills down to 10mg.  1.4mg/month is .047mg/day.  With 2mg pills, each .001g on the scale is .0119mg so .047mg would be about .004g a day, which would be .002g off each pill each day.  You don't need c/h/c/h or c/c/h.  Those are just a punt for when the pill size does not allow daily cuts small enough.  Your son's 2mg V pills give him plenty of leeway so he does not have to resort to on and off patterns.  He's better off cutting daily as this gets the most out of the drug.  It leaves the drug in his body longer until it is ready to be removed.  This gets the drug to do the more work to help him cover symptoms.

[[...]]

I have a auestion. When taperi g with scale. What do you do if you tryi g to drop by .001 or 2 but the pills are more or less .005 to 10 off from eachother

 

Do you subtract from the weight on the scale or or make them weigh the same

 

Sorry, I don't understand the question.

[[...]]

I've been holding my dose for 12 days now and still feel awful. I was great at 14.0, then started MT and haven't been able to recover from that. My symptoms are Hypnic jerks, loss of appetite, loose stool, feeling my heartbeat loudly, insomnia, depression, fear, losing weight.

 

I've been holding, hoping it would lift- but I'm desperate. Is it too late to updose?

I hate the thought of going backward but I hate how I feel too. I'm so conflicted.

I fear I will never heal from this.

 

If I updose, then what?

Please help!

[[ga...]]

I have a auestion. When taperi g with scale. What do you do if you tryi g to drop by .001 or 2 but the pills are more or less .005 to 10 off from eachother

 

Do you subtract from the weight on the scale or or make them weigh the same

 

Sorry, I don't understand the question.

 

Is this what you mean?

 

Your pills have different weights. (typical) Do you weigh each pill and subtract .001 from each pill? or Do you pick your goal weight (.001 less than the average weight of the pills) and cut each pill so it equals your goal weight?

 

(I'm assuming here that you have the decimal point off in saying how different the weights of the pills are.)