Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[do...]]

Hi Everyone,

 

Hope your weekend is going good.

 

Question please:  If I ask my pdoc for liquid ativan, do I need to mix my doses with water or take it straight?  A few months back when I tried the DMT by making my own liquid with vodka/water I did not fare too well.

 

Silly me has been trying to use my pill cutter to cut my 1/4 pieces smaller.  This does not work too well and has been making me feel rather anxious, etc., etc.

 

Thanks so much.

doodle dog

 

 

 

Found this:

Inactive Ingredients

Lorazepam Intensol contains polyethylene glycol and propylene glycol.

 

SG, will this just dilute with water the way my Xanax intensol did? Mine had just propylene glycol and salt.

 

Doods, When I cut tablets, I use a really thin knife (got it at an Asian store, think it's a small fillet knife) and a milligram scale and a tweezers. I really love my little knife. Much easier to use and handle than a pill cutter or a blade.

 

Have a windowful day! 

 

Gard

 

That's what I would expect.  I'm trying to remember who has used the ativan pharma liquid.  I think maybe GreenIrishTweed?  Anyway, these pharma liquids are all very similar and they all use different tweaks of the same solvents: PG, PEG, and alcohol.  So I think it is a good bet.  I used the Roxane liquid V and it was fine being diluted with water, just like your liquid X.

 

That's good news. It was so easy to taper using my liquid. I just diluted with water and was all set.

 

I'm using my knife on my Seroquel tablets right now to reduce it (at a snail's pace). Want to see how little I can get away with and still get 6 hours of sleep. Seroquel makes me nervous with its very scary side effects profile, but I can't take the sedating antidepressants because I'm an ultra-slow metabolizer of them. So slow it's dangerous for me to take many kinds of meds. Almost died from an anti-depressant once. On the flip side, I'm an ultra-fast metabolizer of Valium, which is why I'm stuck with L and opening those itty bitty capsules.   I theorize, though, that switching from a capsule to a liquid is easier on the brain than from a tablet to a liquid since the med in the capsule doesn't have binders. Just my own random theory.

 

Hey Gard,

 

That real thin knife that you mentioned sounds like a great idea too.  Also, I know what you mean about all of the scary side effects that one can experience with meds.  Once I have read the enclosed info that the pharmacy gives you, I am inclined to not take the med.

 

Gard, how did you find out about how fast you metabolize meds?

 

Hope you are sleeping well.

Hugs to you.

doodle dog

[[ga...]]

 

 

Hey Gard,

 

That real thin knife that you mentioned sounds like a great idea too.  Also, I know what you mean about all of the scary side effects that one can experience with meds.  Once I have read the enclosed info that the pharmacy gives you, I am inclined to not take the med.

 

Gard, how did you find out about how fast you metabolize meds?

 

Hope you are sleeping well.

Hugs to you.

doodle dog

 

Doodle, Your doctor can order genetic testing for liver enzymes. Different meds use different enzymes to metabolize them. I had 2 genes tested and found I completely lack one enzyme and have way too much the other. Other things effect metabolism rates, too, but I'm not knowledgeable about them, just the liver enzymes.

[[Sh...]]

Hey MT friends and warriors!

 

Long time...  Just dropping by to say Hi and wish everyone well. Keep up the fight.  I am at .68mg. Down from 1mg.  Started liquid taper of K Sept 1, 2015. 

 

Sx ... Mostly mild to moderate anxiety.  Depression that can overwhelm if I do not refocus myself.  Occasional insomnia, but I manage it with OTC sleep aids and supplements.  This is a very slow process.  I work FT and am a single parent.  Job is stressful so I must pace myself. I use my faith and force myself to "let stuff go" and refuse to dwell on unhealthy "worst case" thoughts when my anxiety increases.  Some muscle tension and sensitive teeth at times. Overall, I consider I am doing well as I can function fairly well.  I really have no other choice. 

 

You are in my thoughts and my heart goes out to you. This is truly the fight of a life time for many.

 

Stay strong warriors! 

 

Shaani

[[Sh...]]

Hey, i could use some advice. I am at 3.06 mg Diaz right now. I did a daily taper of 5 proc on 14d but since i had to do a few holds from 3.25 till now ... to stay functional, I'm going to hold .01 till i'm at 3. I'm working part pill part liquid fat milk. But my problem now is, i am this close to 3.. it's really hard to get the right amount out, either i have not enough or i have bubbles. I don't think i can go from 3.05 approx to 3 in one go. How do i find a solution to do this or can't i do any harm in going immediately to 3 ? i also wanted to know what's my best option under 3. Do i stay at .01 cuts daily ? And hold when necessary ? My main problems are headaches, nausea, deep breathing (like hyperventilating), some fogginess, fatigue at days, muscle aches, emotional at times but been able till now on to drive, walk the dog 3 times a day.. and sometimes some movement : like warm up exercises, yoga, dance... only the dayes the are going well ofcourse. I need to go slow as i want to stay functional with 2 kids. But can't stay at one rate to long i guess since i was in tolerance withdrawal with a short working benzo after 1 month already. Can anybody who knows something about this lend me a hand ?

Thank you very much !

x Sh x

[[Ki...]]

Gard, I did the testing too, but the 23 and me kit and it showed CYP3 A4 flagged for me. The first drug it mentioned was diazepam. Of course I got the report the very same week I was finishing my crossover to valium. After spending 10 minutes freaking out I realized I had been substituting v for x for 3 months and it seemed fine. I realized all I needed to do was what I was already doing- splitting my doses up. So now Im at 11 mg, taking 1/2 mg at each meal then 9.5 at bedtime and it seems to be working ok. I think people with weird genes like us just gotta find out the right schedule. It really could make all the difference.

[[ga...]]

Hey MT friends and warriors!

 

Long time...  Just dropping by to say Hi and wish everyone well. Keep up the fight.  I am at .68mg. Down from 1mg.  Started liquid taper of K Sept 1, 2015. 

 

Sx ... Mostly mild to moderate anxiety.  Depression that can overwhelm if I do not refocus myself.  Occasional insomnia, but I manage it with OTC sleep aids and supplements.  This is a very slow process.  I work FT and am a single parent.  Job is stressful so I must pace myself. I use my faith and force myself to "let stuff go" and refuse to dwell on unhealthy "worst case" thoughts when my anxiety increases.  Some muscle tension and sensitive teeth at times. Overall, I consider I am doing well as I can function fairly well.  I really have no other choice. 

 

You are in my thoughts and my heart goes out to you. This is truly the fight of a life time for many.

 

Stay strong warriors! 

 

Shaani

 

Hi Shaani. It's so good to see you and get an update. Sounds like you are being very sensible in your taper and dealing with it well. Keep up the good work, girl! :smitten:

 

Gard

[[ga...]]

Gard, I did the testing too, but the 23 and me kit and it showed CYP3 A4 flagged for me. The first drug it mentioned was diazepam. Of course I got the report the very same week I was finishing my crossover to valium. After spending 10 minutes freaking out I realized I had been substituting v for x for 3 months and it seemed fine. I realized all I needed to do was what I was already doing- splitting my doses up. So now Im at 11 mg, taking 1/2 mg at each meal then 9.5 at bedtime and it seems to be working ok. I think people with weird genes like us just gotta find out the right schedule. It really could make all the difference.

 

You hit the nail on the head!

[[ga...]]

Hey, i could use some advice. I am at 3.06 mg Diaz right now. I did a daily taper of 5 proc on 14d but since i had to do a few holds from 3.25 till now ... to stay functional, I'm going to hold .01 till i'm at 3. I'm working part pill part liquid fat milk. But my problem now is, i am this close to 3.. it's really hard to get the right amount out, either i have not enough or i have bubbles. I don't think i can go from 3.05 approx to 3 in one go. How do i find a solution to do this or can't i do any harm in going immediately to 3 ? i also wanted to know what's my best option under 3. Do i stay at .01 cuts daily ? And hold when necessary ? My main problems are headaches, nausea, deep breathing (like hyperventilating), some fogginess, fatigue at days, muscle aches, emotional at times but been able till now on to drive, walk the dog 3 times a day.. and sometimes some movement : like warm up exercises, yoga, dance... only the dayes the are going well ofcourse. I need to go slow as i want to stay functional with 2 kids. But can't stay at one rate to long i guess since i was in tolerance withdrawal with a short working benzo after 1 month already. Can anybody who knows something about this lend me a hand ?

Thank you very much !

x Sh x

 

Hi Shake. My brain is too muddled and I have never used milk, so I'm not much help, but a guru will be along soon, I'm sure. Did you try on the liquid titration board, too?

 

Gard

[[Sh...]]

Never mind Gardner... i m such a fuzzy head.. this morning i figured it out how to solve my first problem. Could use some help in the taper schedule though. Thanks for wanting to help !

[[ga...]]

Glad to hear you solved something Shake. Congratulate yourself!

 

I have repented from doing math or schedules even for myself because I have messed them up so badly, so we will wait for SG.

 

Gard

[[...]]

Hey, i could use some advice. I am at 3.06 mg Diaz right now. I did a daily taper of 5 proc on 14d but since i had to do a few holds from 3.25 till now ... to stay functional, I'm going to hold .01 till i'm at 3. I'm working part pill part liquid fat milk. But my problem now is, i am this close to 3.. it's really hard to get the right amount out, either i have not enough or i have bubbles. I don't think i can go from 3.05 approx to 3 in one go. How do i find a solution to do this or can't i do any harm in going immediately to 3 ? i also wanted to know what's my best option under 3. Do i stay at .01 cuts daily ? And hold when necessary ? My main problems are headaches, nausea, deep breathing (like hyperventilating), some fogginess, fatigue at days, muscle aches, emotional at times but been able till now on to drive, walk the dog 3 times a day.. and sometimes some movement : like warm up exercises, yoga, dance... only the dayes the are going well ofcourse. I need to go slow as i want to stay functional with 2 kids. But can't stay at one rate to long i guess since i was in tolerance withdrawal with a short working benzo after 1 month already. Can anybody who knows something about this lend me a hand ?

Thank you very much !

x Sh x

 

I guess I don't understand the problem.  Your dose is 3.06mg V?  And you have a liquid, but can't...do what?

[[Sh...]]

Yes liguid fat milk, part pill. But it's hard to pull the syringe when there's not much milk left anymore. But i found the solution so it's okay. I make my 50 ml 0.5 mg diazep and 50 ml milk. Pull my .05 or .04 out with my syringe and do it in another jaw. The other part i throw away. Then i'll have no bubbles and the right amount.

[[ed...]]

Hi All,

 

So I'm finding it a bit difficult to keep up with .02mg daily cuts to my 1:1 liquid Diazepam; sx catch up with me after about 7 days of cuts this size. I'd like to try out .0175 or .015 cuts, but the markings on my 1ml syringe are set at .02ml.  Obviously, accuracy will be a problem. I've seen many other people (via their signatures) reduce in the fractional increments that I'd like to, but don't know how to do this. Any advice?

 

Thank you in advance,

Ed

[[...]]

Yes liguid fat milk, part pill. But it's hard to pull the syringe when there's not much milk left anymore. But i found the solution so it's okay. I make my 50 ml 0.5 mg diazep and 50 ml milk. Pull my .05 or .04 out with my syringe and do it in another jaw. The other part i throw away. Then i'll have no bubbles and the right amount.

 

Oh, okay.  You are having trouble sucking up the last little bit into the syringe.  But it sounds like you solved it.  It would not have been the end of the world to just go directly from 3.06mg to 3mg and wait a few more days to let the cut process, but it is good that you figured it out as the drug is able to help you more by breaking it into daily cuts.

[[...]]

Hi All,

 

So I'm finding it a bit difficult to keep up with .02mg daily cuts to my 1:1 liquid Diazepam; sx catch up with me after about 7 days of cuts this size. I'd like to try out .0175 or .015 cuts, but the markings on my 1ml syringe are set at .02ml.  Obviously, accuracy will be a problem. I've seen many other people (via their signatures) reduce in the fractional increments that I'd like to, but don't know how to do this. Any advice?

 

Thank you in advance,

Ed

 

It sounds like your .02mg cut has been used up.  This is the natural result of a lower dose.  A way to get a read on your best cut is to look at your cycle and divide total mg drop by total days.  For example if you cut .02mg a day for seven days, then need to hold for three, that would be .14mg/10 days or .014mg/day.  So a more appropriate daily cut for you would be .014mg/day.

 

At the lower doses 1:1 diazepam liquids are a bit strong.  You can keep using it and just estimate between the tick lines.  It is not as accurate from day to day, but overall will.  But I like to see cut sizes no lower than .05ml on the 1ml syringe.  If you could dilute your liquid to 1:10 that would bring you the rest of the way.

[[ed...]]

Thanks SG! 

 

And now, the invariable follow ups:

 

1) Do you think it is odd for me to already be having problems with .02 cuts even though I'm "only" down to 4.35mg of Diaz?

 

2) My 1:1 is compounded in almond oil (the only thing my gut tolerates) and a touch of silica. I believe this is a suspension rather than a solution. It is kept at room temperature in an amber bottle.  A) Can I simply dilute this with water? B) Would you suppose the diluted final product could be kept at room temperature?

 

Thanks again. Especially for the logical explanation for a .014 rate of taper.

 

--Ed

[[...]]

Thanks SG! 

 

And now, the invariable follow ups:

 

1) Do you think it is odd for me to already be having problems with .02 cuts even though I'm "only" down to 4.35mg of Diaz?

 

2) My 1:1 is compounded in almond oil (the only thing my gut tolerates) and a touch of silica. I believe this is a suspension rather than a solution. It is kept at room temperature in an amber bottle.  A) Can I simply dilute this with water? B) Would you suppose the diluted final product could be kept at room temperature?

 

Thanks again. Especially for the logical explanation for a .014 rate of taper.

 

--Ed

 

1.  No, not at all.  That is 14% a month and we see people unable to handle that all the time.

 

2.  I think the almond oil liquids are meant to be suspensions, although diazepam is fat-soluble so I'm not entirely sure and have never tracked down that answer.  You could ask the pharmacist.  I'd be interested in their answer.  I don't think water would work to dilute it and I also would not try almond oil either as, if it is a suspension, the ratio of almond oil to silica might be important.  And also, drinking a lot of almond oil may not be good.  I take a daily supplement of MCT oil and too much can be hard on the stomach.  Again, ask the pharmacist about diluting.  It does not have to be 1:10.  Even going to 1:2 would help a lot.

[[Sh...]]

Hey, i could use some advice. I am at 3.06 mg Diaz right now. I did a daily taper of 5 proc on 14d but since i had to do a few holds from 3.25 till now ... to stay functional, I'm going to hold .01 till i'm at 3. I'm working part pill part liquid fat milk. But my problem now is, i am this close to 3.. it's really hard to get the right amount out, either i have not enough or i have bubbles. I don't think i can go from 3.05 approx to 3 in one go. How do i find a solution to do this or can't i do any harm in going immediately to 3 ? i also wanted to know what's my best option under 3. Do i stay at .01 cuts daily ? And hold when necessary ? My main problems are headaches, nausea, deep breathing (like hyperventilating), some fogginess, fatigue at days, muscle aches, emotional at times but been able till now on to drive, walk the dog 3 times a day.. and sometimes some movement : like warm up exercises, yoga, dance... only the dayes the are going well ofcourse. I need to go slow as i want to stay functional with 2 kids. But can't stay at one rate to long i guess since i was in tolerance withdrawal with a short working benzo after 1 month already. Can anybody who knows something about this lend me a hand ?

Thank you very much !

x Sh x

 

I guess I don't understand the problem.  Your dose is 3.06mg V?  And you have a liquid, but can't...do what?

 

 

Sg I solved my first Problem but Could you lend me a hand in the other one I postend in my quote. According to symptoms would it be Okay to taper .01  a Day and hold when necessary ? I started from 4 on liquid/pill with 5 % in 10 days then by 3.25 it got a bit harder and started tapering 5 % in 14d. What are your ideas ? Till now I was able to drive Cook do household and take 3 walks a Day.

Thanks a lot !

Sh x

[[ed...]]

Thanks SG! 

 

And now, the invariable follow ups:

 

1) Do you think it is odd for me to already be having problems with .02 cuts even though I'm "only" down to 4.35mg of Diaz?

 

2) My 1:1 is compounded in almond oil (the only thing my gut tolerates) and a touch of silica. I believe this is a suspension rather than a solution. It is kept at room temperature in an amber bottle.  A) Can I simply dilute this with water? B) Would you suppose the diluted final product could be kept at room temperature?

 

Thanks again. Especially for the logical explanation for a .014 rate of taper.

 

--Ed

 

1.  No, not at all.  That is 14% a month and we see people unable to handle that all the time.

 

2.  I think the almond oil liquids are meant to be suspensions, although diazepam is fat-soluble so I'm not entirely sure and have never tracked down that answer.  You could ask the pharmacist.  I'd be interested in their answer.  I don't think water would work to dilute it and I also would not try almond oil either as, if it is a suspension, the ratio of almond oil to silica might be important.  And also, drinking a lot of almond oil may not be good.  I take a daily supplement of MCT oil and too much can be hard on the stomach.  Again, ask the pharmacist about diluting.  It does not have to be 1:10.  Even going to 1:2 would help a lot.

 

Thanks for taking the time. I'll let you know. By the way, do they make syringes with markers with only .01 separation? And what type of jar did you use to "shake" up your diluted product?

[[...]]

I guess I don't understand the problem.  Your dose is 3.06mg V?  And you have a liquid, but can't...do what?

Sg I solved my first Problem but Could you lend me a hand in the other one I postend in my quote. According to symptoms would it be Okay to taper .01  a Day and hold when necessary ? I started from 4 on liquid/pill with 5 % in 10 days then by 3.25 it got a bit harder and started tapering 5 % in 14d. What are your ideas ? Till now I was able to drive Cook do household and take 3 walks a Day.

Thanks a lot !

Sh x

 

Tapering these drugs needs to be symptom-based, i.e., you body will dictate.  Generally speaking, at your dose .01mg a day is sensible.  It is .3mg a month, which is less than 10%, but symptom increase is king.  That's what tell you what to do.  It sounds like you've run into higher symptoms so I would hold and get rid of them, or, if they are not too bad, you could try the .01mg cut and see if you can get them to fade over time.  Either way you need to get them to trend less and not allow increases.

[[...]]

1.  No, not at all.  That is 14% a month and we see people unable to handle that all the time.

 

2.  I think the almond oil liquids are meant to be suspensions, although diazepam is fat-soluble so I'm not entirely sure and have never tracked down that answer.  You could ask the pharmacist.  I'd be interested in their answer.  I don't think water would work to dilute it and I also would not try almond oil either as, if it is a suspension, the ratio of almond oil to silica might be important.  And also, drinking a lot of almond oil may not be good.  I take a daily supplement of MCT oil and too much can be hard on the stomach.  Again, ask the pharmacist about diluting.  It does not have to be 1:10.  Even going to 1:2 would help a lot.

Thanks for taking the time. I'll let you know. By the way, do they make syringes with markers with only .01 separation? And what type of jar did you use to "shake" up your diluted product?

 

Yes, you can get syringes with 100 lines on the barrel.  Very common.  I forgot to mention that you can also get .5ml syringes...for insulin I think.  That would help you work with your more concentrated liquid.  They are not too common and I rarely see anyone using them, but they are out there on the internet if you look.

 

Any jar with a wide mouth and a good seal is fine.  Small Ball jars work well.  I never liked shaking myself.  I used Roxane liquid V and diluted with water and just paddle-stirred it until it was uniformly mixed.  With a clear jar I could visually see the liquid V go into solution with the water and it created a crystal clear uniform peach-colored liquid.  Nice.

[[Sh...]]

Thx a lot SG for the honest answer ! I'll hold on to that and see how my body responds. For now i'm doing a .01 cut 2 days and a day hold till i'm at 3. I was planning to stay on 3 till my body feels upto another cut.

Thanks for taking the time !

Grtz x Sh

[[Ul...]]

I didn't get a response from this that I posted earlier, so I thought I'd try it again:

 

Hi SG, Builder...whoever. I haven't been in the forum for a while due to all the "fun" things going on. I'm still having tons of problems on several different levels, but one of those is being addressed in about 10 days...surgery on my back. They're going to have to cut me up pretty good due to the damage. My question is this to anyone who may have an opinion or who has experienced it: Is it a problem to go from liquid form of my K over the past year to pill form for a couple days while in the hospital? My taper has been dreadfully slow due to all my other challenges, but I'm at a point now that equals an amount in pill form. Long story, but I can't bring my liquid doses into the hospital with me. I'll need to take an equivalent amount of their tablet doses for a couple days. Then, I would go home and continue with the liquid. Any thoughts?

 

I know I could ask this on a different forum, but this is the only one I ever get on. I trust SG, Builder, etc. I obviously don't know anyone in the other forums. It's depressing reading those anyway. Much more uplifting in this thread.

 

Thanks, and good luck to everyone here!!

 

Jeff

[[jr...]]

I didn't get a response from this that I posted earlier, so I thought I'd try it again:

 

Hi SG, Builder...whoever. I haven't been in the forum for a while due to all the "fun" things going on. I'm still having tons of problems on several different levels, but one of those is being addressed in about 10 days...surgery on my back. They're going to have to cut me up pretty good due to the damage. My question is this to anyone who may have an opinion or who has experienced it: Is it a problem to go from liquid form of my K over the past year to pill form for a couple days while in the hospital? My taper has been dreadfully slow due to all my other challenges, but I'm at a point now that equals an amount in pill form. Long story, but I can't bring my liquid doses into the hospital with me. I'll need to take an equivalent amount of their tablet doses for a couple days. Then, I would go home and continue with the liquid. Any thoughts?

 

I know I could ask this on a different forum, but this is the only one I ever get on. I trust SG, Builder, etc. I obviously don't know anyone in the other forums. It's depressing reading those anyway. Much more uplifting in this thread.

 

Thanks, and good luck to everyone here!!

 

Jeff

 

 

There is really no difference in taking pills or liquid. You will be just fine. There is always ,for some reason, a problem going from dry to a liquid. So I would just hold for a week or two when going back on the liquid before I started cutting again.

[[...]]

I didn't get a response from this that I posted earlier, so I thought I'd try it again:

 

Hi SG, Builder...whoever. I haven't been in the forum for a while due to all the "fun" things going on. I'm still having tons of problems on several different levels, but one of those is being addressed in about 10 days...surgery on my back. They're going to have to cut me up pretty good due to the damage. My question is this to anyone who may have an opinion or who has experienced it: Is it a problem to go from liquid form of my K over the past year to pill form for a couple days while in the hospital? My taper has been dreadfully slow due to all my other challenges, but I'm at a point now that equals an amount in pill form. Long story, but I can't bring my liquid doses into the hospital with me. I'll need to take an equivalent amount of their tablet doses for a couple days. Then, I would go home and continue with the liquid. Any thoughts?

 

I know I could ask this on a different forum, but this is the only one I ever get on. I trust SG, Builder, etc. I obviously don't know anyone in the other forums. It's depressing reading those anyway. Much more uplifting in this thread.

 

Thanks, and good luck to everyone here!!

 

Jeff

 

Hi Jeff, I think any time we change there is potential for the dose to be disrupted, good or bad, up or down.  As JR said, we don't understand why changing from solid to liquid dosing can feel like a cut, so I don't know what will happen when you go the other way.  My guess would be it would be okay, but it's just a guess.  One thing though: you mentioned you would be dosing on "their" pills in the hospital.  Any chance you can bring your own?  I say this because we know a brand change can be less potent (or more potent too) so you'd want to avoid a brand change if possible.