Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[...]]

HEy guys and gals.  Some time back I'd found a post that explained how to do a liquid valium oral solution taper and had maths in it for cutting by percentages and cutting by dose.  I think it was a post by builder?  I cannot find it anywhere though!  Does anyone know the post I'm talking about? Can you link me to it please!

 

Here's a list of your posts.  Probably the best way to find it...

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=36763

[[Fi...]]

Instead of .005mg every other day, I'd cut .0025mg every day.  There is an advantage to this that is there to take if you want to.

 

Generally speaking, it is not a good idea to increase your rate as you go lower.  Lower doses require smaller cuts to get the same effect.  This is just the way drug doses work in the body and as near as I can see it is unavoidable.  But, if you have been tapering at a rate lower than you can handle, then there might be some headroom to move up.  I would not press it though.  You are moving pretty quickly as it is and if you are feeling well I would not jeopardize that.  Right now you are at about 15% a month (.0025mg/day x 30 days /.5mg=15%).  That's moving pretty good.  I'm glad you are able to do that.

 

As far as what to do when you get to .5mg, it's a preference.  Either will work.  I like to liquify as little as possible, but that is not too important.

 

Okay, 15 % a month is great, vs. the  5% I thought I was doing, I will leave my taper rate alone!  I won't even begin to explain how I got my percentage - except that I calculated it on the original amount I started tapering.  I'm in the social sciences, and not the hard sciences for a reason    Thanks for your supportive words, I feel much better knowing I'm right where I should be, and feeling the best I have.

 

Thanks again SG.  Finnie

 

Good to go.  And remember that as you go lower the cut size WILL eventually need to get smaller and smaller to keep the rate at 15% a month.  You'll know by how you feel.

 

:thumbsup:

[[bu...]]

I've seen a lot on liquid tapering.  Why is liquid better than using a scale to daily taper?

 

 

1)  The benzo in liquid is uniformly distributed, but with tablets distribution is hit-and-miss.

 

2)  Based on posts I see here (and on basic logic) the $25 ebay scale is not accurate.  Folks say the readings are effected by the slightest air movement, by temp and humidity, etc.

 

3)  Weighing/shaving, etc is much more labor intensive.  Measuring liquid is very simple.

 

Those are some reasons liquid is better.  But that doesn't mean scales/shaving etc doesn't work.  If you feel comfortable dry cuttting with a scale, and it works for you, that's OK.

 

 

[[bu...]]

HEy guys and gals.  Some time back I'd found a post that explained how to do a liquid valium oral solution taper and had maths in it for cutting by percentages and cutting by dose.  I think it was a post by builder?  I cannot find it anywhere though!  Does anyone know the post I'm talking about? Can you link me to it please!

  What do you want to do, and what do you need to know?

[[Be...]]

Was trying to figure out how long I should make the liquid taper.  There was a formula/chart (maybe?) for how much to taper down if you wanted to be done in a certain amount of days, and another one for if you wanted to go by a percentage drop.  Plus it had tons of great info on how to mix and do the doses etc. I really wish I'd bookmarked it. 

 

Was it your thread?  I did a search and couldn't find anything.

[[Sh...]]

SG57,

 

Just to clarify...does it matter how much vodka you dissolve your meds in? I have a 5mg valium tablet which I put in a glass, and then pour just a tiny bit of vodka in. It dissolves, and then I add 500ml of water (or a bit less so both liquids add up to 500ml). This way I know 100ml equals 1mg of valium.

 

Im not missing anything am I?

 

Yes, it matters.  How much depends on the proof/ABV.  If it is 80 proof you'd need at least 3ml (I'd double it to 6ml) to dissolve 5mg.  Higher proofs require less.  You are using the same amount of water I would choose...500ml.  That's important.  This makes .01mg/ml (100ml=1mg) liquid V.  It is important to keep these water liquids well below .03mg/ml and you are doing that.

 

Thanks for replying. Sorry, what do you mean by proof/ABV? And why would you double the amount of vodka from 3ml to 6ml? Yes I use 500ml which gets me 5 uses and then I dissolve another pill and start again.

[[Be...]]

Found it!  http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97511.0

 

Does this method work well??  I was thinking of using the 100 day taper.... or maybe the 50?

 

Ive seen two different methods now.  This one of making the solution and discarding small amounts to reduce the dose, and the other makes a stronger solution and your dose is the part you remove.  Pros/cons to each?  or are they pretty much the same?

[[bu...]]

Was trying to figure out how long I should make the liquid taper.  There was a formula/chart (maybe?) for how much to taper down if you wanted to be done in a certain amount of days, and another one for if you wanted to go by a percentage drop.  Plus it had tons of great info on how to mix and do the doses etc. I really wish I'd bookmarked it. 

 

Was it your thread?  I did a search and couldn't find anything.

  Please don't try to tie your taper to a timetable!  This has to be a "symptom-based" procedure, and you slow down or speed up based on how you feel.

[[...]]

Was trying to figure out how long I should make the liquid taper.  There was a formula/chart (maybe?) for how much to taper down if you wanted to be done in a certain amount of days, and another one for if you wanted to go by a percentage drop.  Plus it had tons of great info on how to mix and do the doses etc. I really wish I'd bookmarked it. 

 

Was it your thread?  I did a search and couldn't find anything.

  Please don't try to tie your taper to a timetable!  This has to be a "symptom-based" procedure, and you slow down or speed up based on how you feel.

 

[[...]]

SG57,

 

Just to clarify...does it matter how much vodka you dissolve your meds in? I have a 5mg valium tablet which I put in a glass, and then pour just a tiny bit of vodka in. It dissolves, and then I add 500ml of water (or a bit less so both liquids add up to 500ml). This way I know 100ml equals 1mg of valium.

 

Im not missing anything am I?

Yes, it matters.  How much depends on the proof/ABV.  If it is 80 proof you'd need at least 3ml (I'd double it to 6ml) to dissolve 5mg.  Higher proofs require less.  You are using the same amount of water I would choose...500ml.  That's important.  This makes .01mg/ml (100ml=1mg) liquid V.  It is important to keep these water liquids well below .03mg/ml and you are doing that.

Thanks for replying. Sorry, what do you mean by proof/ABV? And why would you double the amount of vodka from 3ml to 6ml? Yes I use 500ml which gets me 5 uses and then I dissolve another pill and start again.

 

Alcohols are mixtures of both ethanol (drinking alcohol) and water.  In some countries it is more prevalent to use ABV (alcohol by volume) to indicate the strength of the alcohol in the water.  In other countries proof is more common, which is twice the ABV...a 40% vodka would be 80 proof.  Thanks to a researcher named Jouyban we have accurate information as to how much of a certain proof is needed to dissolve 5mg V.  That info is all here on BB and can be looked up.  If your vodka is 80 proof it takes 2.6ml to dissolve 5mg V.  I double that to give a margin for error, since it  is very important to fully dissolve the V.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.40

[[Le...]]

Hello. I hope everyone is doing OK. I started the PG solution 12 days ago using a 1:100 ratio.  I dilute 2mg Diazepam in 2ml PG and 198 ml distilled water. One batch lasts me 2 days. I take 1mg in liquid  (split into 2 doses of 50 ml) and the rest in pill form.

 

Yesterday my shaky hands slipped when transferring the solution to my bottles and I spilled some of the solution.  Didn't think much of it. Today I came up short by .10mg /10ml. I adjusted the 2 doses to 45 ml each. Does this sound OK for one day? I need to find bottles with a wider opening....cause I can see this happening again.

 

Thank you very much for any and all advice, it is greatly appreciated!

[[bu...]]

Hello. I hope everyone is doing OK. I started the PG solution 12 days ago using a 1:100 ratio.  I dilute 2mg Diazepam in 2ml PG and 198 ml distilled water. One batch lasts me 2 days. I take 1mg in liquid  (split into 2 doses of 50 ml) and the rest in pill form.

 

Yesterday my shaky hands slipped when transferring the solution to my bottles and I spilled some of the solution.  Didn't think much of it. Today I came up short by .10mg /10ml. I adjusted the 2 doses to 45 ml each. Does this sound OK for one day? I need to find bottles with a wider opening....cause I can see this happening again.

 

Thank you very much for any and all advice, it is greatly appreciated!

  You'll be fine...no big deal!

[[Le...]]

Many thanks Builder. Thought it would be OK, but wanted to make sure. Any thoughts on how long I should hold before I start tapering? BTW, I downloaded the titration spreadsheet, I really like it. But I can't figure out why it won't let me enter tenths of a ml in the reduction column. Let's say I want to reduce by 4.5 ml a day. The spreadsheet doesn't recognize that number. Is there a way around that? As always thanks for your support and patience.

[[bu...]]

Many thanks Builder. Thought it would be OK, but wanted to make sure. Any thoughts on how long I should hold before I start tapering? BTW, I downloaded the titration spreadsheet, I really like it. But I can't figure out why it won't let me enter tenths of a ml in the reduction column. Let's say I want to reduce by 4.5 ml a day. The spreadsheet doesn't recognize that number. Is there a way around that? As always thanks for your support and patience.

  I'm not familiar with the spreadsheet.  Sorry.

[[Lo...]]

Hi Builder, I see that you tapered over a period of 2 years. Slow and steady. Did you experience much in te way of insomnia or other withdrawal symptoms? Were you initially on another drug and crossed over to Diazepam?

 

i am tapering from a Z-drug and wonder if it would be easier doing a crossover. Thanks for any help.

 

[[bu...]]

I had only only occasional, mild sxs, nothing a small dose of some OTC med wouldn't take care of. 

 

I really was only on diazepam.  I took xanax for a couple of weeks, and lorazepam for a couple of weeks, early on.  Diazepam for about 5 years, including taper time.

[[Le...]]

Many thanks Builder. Thought it would be OK, but wanted to make sure. Any thoughts on how long I should hold before I start tapering? BTW, I downloaded the titration spreadsheet, I really like it. But I can't figure out why it won't let me enter tenths of a ml in the reduction column. Let's say I want to reduce by 4.5 ml a day. The spreadsheet doesn't recognize that number. Is there a way around that? As always thanks for your support and patience.

  I'm not familiar with the spreadsheet.  Sorry.

 

No problem, thanks for your help Builder . Is anyone else familiar with the titration spreadsheet?  Many thanks.

[[Be...]]

What are people using to store their 100 ML mix in?  I looked at graduated cylinders but they seem like it would be hard to get a syringe far enough into, same with flasks, and beakers I'd probably end up spilling or contaminating since they have no top.  Would just a small glass jar with a lid work? 

[[bu...]]

What are people using to store their 100 ML mix in?  I looked at graduated cylinders but they seem like it would be hard to get a syringe far enough into, same with flasks, and beakers I'd probably end up spilling or contaminating since they have no top.  Would just a small glass jar with a lid work?

  A small glass jar with a lid is the best storage container.

[[Ki...]]

Hello all- I am wondering how long is typical to hold after a crossover before starting a taper? My last smidge of X was on Thursday. I am now at 11 mg V. I suppose I am pretty stable- minor headaches and crabbiness and just the general valium blahs, I guess. So if all stays like this, what is a typical hold time, and approx how much do people generally taper in the first few months? Just planning ahead to know what I might need to tell my doc at my next appointment. I know its subject to change, just wondering what a typical first few months practical dosage might look like for someone who took benzos for a VERY long time.

[[...]]

Hello all- I am wondering how long is typical to hold after a crossover before starting a taper? My last smidge of X was on Thursday. I am now at 11 mg V. I suppose I am pretty stable- minor headaches and crabbiness and just the general valium blahs, I guess. So if all stays like this, what is a typical hold time, and approx how much do people generally taper in the first few months? Just planning ahead to know what I might need to tell my doc at my next appointment. I know its subject to change, just wondering what a typical first few months practical dosage might look like for someone who took benzos for a VERY long time.

 

Hi KBB, Really it is about how you feel and if you feel ready to taper.  Do you think you are getting anything out of the hold?  These are subjective things that you can best answer.  I will say though, that in your case you crossed so slowly to V that the V has had plenty of time to build up.

 

As for taper rate, if you don't know where to begin I usually suggest 8% a month as a stating point.  Since your dose is 11mg this would be .03mg a day.  This is conservative for most people and hopefully will get you off to a good start and give immediate success.  You can give it a try and adjust from there.

[[Ki...]]

Ok maybe I will sit here a week and make sure I have no ramifications from the weird dose change and start that gradual taper. Since I have the bizarro DNA that makes me metabolize valium very quickly I guess I would do that reduction for the total and then make every dose equally smaller. I take most of it at night but the uneven doses seems to be ok. Guess as long as its 11 mg a day it doesnt matter how its divided up but I seem to burn it up in 6-8 hours! Thank you SG!

[[...]]

Ok maybe I will sit here a week and make sure I have no ramifications from the weird dose change and start that gradual taper. Since I have the bizarro DNA that makes me metabolize valium very quickly I guess I would do that reduction for the total and then make every dose equally smaller. I take most of it at night but the uneven doses seems to be ok. Guess as long as its 11 mg a day it doesnt matter how its divided up but I seem to burn it up in 6-8 hours! Thank you SG!

 

I believe in evenness...and that our bodies process 1/24th of the dose per hour.  That seems only logical.  So, to me, doses should be planned that way.  In other words, at 11mg you are best off with .458mg of coverage each hour.  But if you feel good, you feel good, so that is hard to argue with.

 

I think it is smart to hold a week.  The only thing that is going to do is help you - that time will not go to waste.  This is about feeling well, not getting off.  Getting off is a by-product.

 

Yes, measure the total dose for the day, then just divide it up by eye.  There is no need to measure each and every individual dose with a syringe.

[[ga...]]

Ok maybe I will sit here a week and make sure I have no ramifications from the weird dose change and start that gradual taper. Since I have the bizarro DNA that makes me metabolize valium very quickly I guess I would do that reduction for the total and then make every dose equally smaller. I take most of it at night but the uneven doses seems to be ok. Guess as long as its 11 mg a day it doesnt matter how its divided up but I seem to burn it up in 6-8 hours! Thank you SG!

 

I believe in evenness...and that our bodies process 1/24th of the dose per hour.  That seems only logical.  So, to me, doses should be planned that way.  In other words, at 11mg you are best off with .458mg of coverage each hour.  But if you feel good, you feel good, so that is hard to argue with.

 

I think it is smart to hold a week.  The only thing that is going to do is help you - that time will not go to waste.  This is about feeling well, not getting off.  Getting off is a by-product.

 

Yes, measure the total dose for the day, then just divide it up by eye.  There is no need to measure each and every individual dose with a syringe.

 

:thumbsup:

 

I rushed to start my L taper after I crossed from X and now am stuck in a long hold. Probably should have held longer than I did. Patience has never been my long suit, but I sure am learning!

[[Ki...]]

The only reason my doses are not even is because it does make me sleepy so I take more at night for that reason only. I do think the unevenness of my dosing is a part of my headaches. I will try to move a bit more of my night dose to daytime. I have no problems with anxiety, and even through that hideous crossover that really was not an issue. Hopefully that will hold true because I am taking a cruise next week ( gasp!) with my stepdad to scatter my Moms ashes. Its on an old peoples type cruise line and not a party boat, so hopefully all will go well. A good week to hold. I am pretty stable now, just " flat". But flat is better than whatever the hell all that stuff was the past few months yall helped me get through.