Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[jr...]]

After months of anxiety and fear about switching to a LT I finally mixed my first Valium solution using PG. My skin burns and my feet are ice cold but I don't care,  I'm one step closer to getting off this poison.

 

SG, JR, Builder thank you for being so patient with me as I struggled to make this first step. 

 

Hope everyone has the best day they can.

 

Left, I am so glad you decided to do a LT. Good luck and remember to listen to your body. If you get in a bad place, hold until you feel better. We are here for you for the duration.

[[jr...]]

Sorry, I made a few typo's in my initial post. I was taking 2.5 mg's of Klonopin daily at the start of my taper. I took 2 mg's dry, liquefied .5 in 100mL's (not 10 haha) and removed 1.2 mL's every day. I am nearing the end of that first .5 taper and I feel just as terrible as I did when I began while I was in tolerance except my DP and agoraphobia have gotten worse. But they were pretty bad to begin with so I think I should just continue with 1.2 mL's daily cut out of 100 for the next .5 with now 1.5 taken dry.

 

If you feel symptoms have gotten worse I'd either hold or reduce my cut size. I would not push through - these drugs do not work that way.

 

That's what I'm doing. Holding. Been holding for over 2 months. Very hard not to get discouraged when you're making no progress toward getting off. But I do think I have seen a slight improvement in my symptoms and my doctor wants me to keep holding. I'm with my primary now since my anti-benzo psychiatrist left. She is not anti-benzo.

 

Do you think there's anything to gain from holding so long? I did manage to start my hold at an even number of capsules, so that's one advantage, no dissolving. 

 

Gard

 

I think long holds are beneficial in that we can only take so much suffering at one time. I also think updoses are appropriate when necessary to make us feel better. I want to be off these meds but I also have to live doing it!!!

 

Are you holding, JR?  (Yes, I am still speaking to you even after what your parrot and that cat did to my recliner on the "puddings" thread. )

 

 

So sorry about the recliner. I took too big a cut in early March and updosed and held to early april when I started a LT. Again , sorry about the recliner but my parrot needs obedience training and it is so hard to find the right trainer

[[Le...]]

After months of anxiety and fear about switching to a LT I finally mixed my first Valium solution using PG. My skin burns and my feet are ice cold but I don't care,  I'm one step closer to getting off this poison.

 

SG, JR, Builder thank you for being so patient with me as I struggled to make this first step. 

 

Hope everyone has the best day they can.

 

Left, I am so glad you decided to do a LT. Good luck and remember to listen to your body. If you get in a bad place, hold until you feel better. We are here for you for the duration.

Thanks JR, I hope my long hold will be an advantage when I start LT tomorrow. Of course, I'll hold for a couple of weeks first. Ya'll are the best and I'm very grateful for the kind support you provide. You help so many of us. Thank you again.

[[St...]]

SG, thank you, the reason I asked is because before I started tapering, I became so tolerant to the Ativan in about two weeks time, and I had to keep going up and up because I was receiving radiation for cancer....it seemed like I had to go up in dose so fast...and I guess I fear that happening....Ativan is such a bugger, ANYWAY, thanks for your thoughts...I can see your point...I will try to hold for awhile longer....thanks again.....

[Guest [Fu...]]

JR, I see from your sig that you're on (or were on) mirtazapine. How did that work for you and did you start it during your taper? My prescriber wants me to try it but I've reacted poorly to everything else she as prescribed so I'm very hesitant to start it.

[[jr...]]

JR, I see from your sig that you're on (or were on) mirtazapine. How did that work for you and did you start it during your taper? My prescriber wants me to try it but I've reacted poorly to everything else she as prescribed so I'm very hesitant to start it.

 

Mirt has been a life saver for me. Depression was one of the reasons it was prescribed. I will take it until I am benzo free and then taper off.

[[ga...]]

 

That's what I'm doing. Holding. Been holding for over 2 months. Very hard not to get discouraged when you're making no progress toward getting off. But I do think I have seen a slight improvement in my symptoms and my doctor wants me to keep holding. I'm with my primary now since my anti-benzo psychiatrist left. She is not anti-benzo.

 

Do you think there's anything to gain from holding so long? I did manage to start my hold at an even number of capsules, so that's one advantage, no dissolving. 

 

Gard

 

I think long holds are beneficial in that we can only take so much suffering at one time. I also think updoses are appropriate when necessary to make us feel better. I want to be off these meds but I also have to live doing it!!!

 

Are you holding, JR?  (Yes, I am still speaking to you even after what your parrot and that cat did to my recliner on the "puddings" thread. )

 

 

So sorry about the recliner. I took too big a cut in early March and updosed and held to early april when I started a LT. Again , sorry about the recliner but my parrot needs obedience training and it is so hard to find the right trainer

 

Yes, parrot trainers are hard to find. 

So, you haven't done a long hold at all? Just a month and then MT now? I haven't updosed, just holding. Supposed to hold another month per my doctor because she made some other med changes. She wants me on Seroquel every night and no extra gabapentin for sleep (different from what the psychiatrist was doing). But I hate how the Q makes me feel. And I wish I could get tapering again! Want this to be over. (Even as I type this I can almost hear SG saying this is a marathon, not a sprint.)

[[jr...]]

 

That's what I'm doing. Holding. Been holding for over 2 months. Very hard not to get discouraged when you're making no progress toward getting off. But I do think I have seen a slight improvement in my symptoms and my doctor wants me to keep holding. I'm with my primary now since my anti-benzo psychiatrist left. She is not anti-benzo.

 

Do you think there's anything to gain from holding so long? I did manage to start my hold at an even number of capsules, so that's one advantage, no dissolving. 

 

Gard

 

I think long holds are beneficial in that we can only take so much suffering at one time. I also think updoses are appropriate when necessary to make us feel better. I want to be off these meds but I also have to live doing it!!!

 

Are you holding, JR?  (Yes, I am still speaking to you even after what your parrot and that cat did to my recliner on the "puddings" thread. )

 

 

So sorry about the recliner. I took too big a cut in early March and updosed and held to early april when I started a LT. Again , sorry about the recliner but my parrot needs obedience training and it is so hard to find the right trainer

 

Yes, parrot trainers are hard to find. 

So, you haven't done a long hold at all? Just a month and then MT now? I haven't updosed, just holding. Supposed to hold another month per my doctor because she made some other med changes. She wants me on Seroquel every night and no extra gabapentin for sleep (different from what the psychiatrist was doing). But I hate how the Q makes me feel. And I wish I could get tapering again! Want this to be over. (Even as I type this I can almost hear SG saying this is a marathon, not a sprint.)

 

I held for a month and felt well enuff to LT. Hold for as long as you need. I think that holds are necessary at times because I do not think our bodies metabolize the drug at the same rate all the time. While half life may be 8 hours this week, next week may be 4 hours. That is why micro tapers work so well.I know the feeling of urgency to be off but that is the one thing we can control and resist when necessary. Which for me is most of the time.

[[bu...]]

JR, I see from your sig that you're on (or were on) mirtazapine. How did that work for you and did you start it during your taper? My prescriber wants me to try it but I've reacted poorly to everything else she as prescribed so I'm very hesitant to start it.

 

I went through a complete laundry of unsuccessful drug therapies before I found mirtazipine.  I tried Valium, Xanax, Lorazepam, Buspar, Geodon, Zoloft, and probably some others that I've forgotten.  Mirtazpiine literally save my life.  No significant side fxs, and easy to discontinue.

[[St...]]

ok SG, if I do another updose, should I just do another 5%?  Could you help me with the math again, please?  My cog fog is so thick right now, I can't hardly remember my name....

[[...]]

ok SG, if I do another updose, should I just do another 5%?  Could you help me with the math again, please?  My cog fog is so thick right now, I can't hardly remember my name....

 

I have trouble gauging what updose amounts are good to try.  Basically, you can try to hit it hard or sneak up on it 5% at a time.

[[St...]]

How much of an increase would 5% be....we came up with total dose 68.7, 6 doses at 11.45.  Is that right?  Thanks again SG!

 

[[...]]

How much of an increase would 5% be....we came up with total dose 68.7, 6 doses at 11.45.  Is that right?  Thanks again SG!

 

I forget your details.  If your total dose is 68.7ml (no dry pills or other benzos) then a 5% increase would be 1.05 x 68.7ml = 72.1ml, divided six ways would be 12.0ml each.  Didn't you have ambien in the mix?

[[St...]]

let's start over ok, sounds like my math is wrong.....you put our total dose at .915 which was my Ativan dose of .6mg and my Ambien dose at .315.....we increased the six doses from 9.95 each to 10.7 each on April 25.  If I do another 5% increase, what would that look like?

[[...]]

let's start over ok, sounds like my math is wrong.....you put our total dose at .915 which was my Ativan dose of .6mg and my Ambien dose at .315.....we increased the six doses from 9.95 each to 10.7 each on April 25.  If I do another 5% increase, what would that look like?

 

Okay, .915mg increased by 5%, then 5% again is 1.05 x 1.05 x .915mg=1.01mg less the .315mg ambien is .694mg, divided six ways is .116mg per dose, which looks like 11.6ml per dose if your liquid is .01mg/ml.  That seems about right...11.6ml.

[[St...]]

I'm confused, are you including my ambien and my Ativan together as my whole dose of benzo a day?  that is what I thought we were doing and the total dose was .915.  I dosed 10.7 six times a day.. from looking at your math, we are not including the .315 ambien in the dose?  Just trying to learn how to do the math here...my liquid is 1ml/mg.  Am I getting close to 1 mg now?  I just need to know how to record this in my notebook too....thanks again.

[[...]]

I'm confused, are you including my ambien and my Ativan together as my whole dose of benzo a day?  that is what I thought we were doing and the total dose was .915.  I dosed 10.7 six times a day.. from looking at your math, we are not including the .315 ambien in the dose?  Just trying to learn how to do the math here...my liquid is 1ml/mg.  Am I getting close to 1 mg now?  I just need to know how to record this in my notebook too....thanks again.

 

I figured the 5% increase based on your total dose, but then the entire increase needed to come from only the ativan liquid so it gets a bit confusing.  Yes, your total equivalent dose would be 1.01mg Ativan.

[[St...]]

It looks like the first time we updosed, we figured 5 percent from the total dose of .915, and this time we are figuring the 5 percent from the Ativan liquid only, am I right?  so, did I updose more than 5 percent of the Ativan liquid the first time?  so...brain dead, sorry.....what is my dose of just the Ativan liquid now, without the second updose, and then with the second updose, I guess that is what I am after...thanks again....

[[...]]

It looks like the first time we updosed, we figured 5 percent from the total dose of .915, and this time we are figuring the 5 percent from the Ativan liquid only, am I right?  so, did I updose more than 5 percent of the Ativan liquid the first time?  so...brain dead, sorry.....what is my dose of just the Ativan liquid now, without the second updose, and then with the second updose, I guess that is what I am after...thanks again....

 

You began with .915mg and upped it 5%, so 1.05 x .915mg = .961mg.  I figured the second updose on the current amount so 1.05 x .961mg = 1.01mg.  Your current dose is .961mg.  Broken down, it is .646mg ativan and .315mg ambien.  Your new dose will be 1.01mg, broken down into .695mg ativan and .315mg ambien.

[[do...]]

If you feel symptoms have gotten worse I'd either hold or reduce my cut size. I would not push through - these drugs do not work that way.

 

That's what I'm doing. Holding. Been holding for over 2 months. Very hard not to get discouraged when you're making no progress toward getting off. But I do think I have seen a slight improvement in my symptoms and my doctor wants me to keep holding. I'm with my primary now since my anti-benzo psychiatrist left. She is not anti-benzo.

 

Do you think there's anything to gain from holding so long? I did manage to start my hold at an even number of capsules, so that's one advantage, no dissolving. 

 

Gard

 

Yes, I do.  I believe the body is always working on the problem so time is not wasted during holds.  I think long holds are a very good thing and will pay off in time.

 

Thank you, SG. I always worry about being on the darn benzo for so long. I only took it as prescribed for 6 months before I started my taper. Thought I'd be off in 6 months. I tapered for a year to get to where I am and have been holding for over 2 months now. (Primary doctor has been messing with my gabapentin and Seroquel during this time. So not exactly a pure hold until this past week.)  Obviously I have over a year left to go. It seems so ridiculous. 6 months of a prescription and then years to get off?  But I will be patient for another month. Well, I will do my best imitation of being patient. 

 

Gard

 

Hi Gardener,

 

How are you?  I have not posted in months and stopped by to checked in on everyone.  I was reading your above post and noticed you mentioned gabapentin.  This was just prescribed  for me to FINALLY help me get off of this last bit of ativan.

 

I am leery of new meds but am still scared to finish my taper because of the withdrawal symptoms that I got last time: the sensitivity to lights and the sense of depersonalization.

 

Will gabapentin just be another med that I will have to taper off of?  Does it have lots of side effects.

 

Thanks so much.

doodle dog

[[St...]]

Thanks so much SG, I'm really trying to think hard into all the options right now, while I'm on a roll, if you don't mind, could you show me how it would work if I would stop the ambien and cover it with the Ativan...?  How much would I have to go up, and would that be something I would do all at once and just drop the ambien, or gradually?  I'm terrified to do it, because I am so afraid I won't sleep, but I know it has to be done,,, would it be better to wait til I am more stable, or go ahead?  I know you can't make the decision for me, (wish you could... ), but would I be able to try unisom right away, or have to wait awhile to get the ambien out of my system,  just toying with all the ways out of this...I know the ambien is going to be a big problem, wish I had never taken it, but it is what it is....just wanted to see what that would look like...thanks again. 

[[...]]

Thanks so much SG, I'm really trying to think hard into all the options right now, while I'm on a roll, if you don't mind, could you show me how it would work if I would stop the ambien and cover it with the Ativan...?  How much would I have to go up, and would that be something I would do all at once and just drop the ambien, or gradually?  I'm terrified to do it, because I am so afraid I won't sleep, but I know it has to be done,,, would it be better to wait til I am more stable, or go ahead?  I know you can't make the decision for me, (wish you could... ), but would I be able to try unisom right away, or have to wait awhile to get the ambien out of my system,  just toying with all the ways out of this...I know the ambien is going to be a big problem, wish I had never taken it, but it is what it is....just wanted to see what that would look like...thanks again.

 

Ambien to Ativan is 20:1 by Ashton.  And she lists the half life of ativan as 8-18 hours longer.  I don't think I'd try to just switch those.  I'd do a crossover.  On the one hand, you are in rough symptoms so it might not be a good time to cross.  On the other hand, the ambien might be contributing to those symptoms so getting rid of it might help.  IDK.  It is hard for me to judge as I am not the one feeling it.  All I can do is lay out things for you to think about.  I doubt ambien is the only magic thing that can get you to sleep.

[[St...]]

I think I will wait a while, maybe the updosing will help.....thanks again for all your help today, so very appreciated!!!!   

[[ga...]]

If you feel symptoms have gotten worse I'd either hold or reduce my cut size. I would not push through - these drugs do not work that way.

 

That's what I'm doing. Holding. Been holding for over 2 months. Very hard not to get discouraged when you're making no progress toward getting off. But I do think I have seen a slight improvement in my symptoms and my doctor wants me to keep holding. I'm with my primary now since my anti-benzo psychiatrist left. She is not anti-benzo.

 

Do you think there's anything to gain from holding so long? I did manage to start my hold at an even number of capsules, so that's one advantage, no dissolving. 

 

Gard

 

Yes, I do.  I believe the body is always working on the problem so time is not wasted during holds.  I think long holds are a very good thing and will pay off in time.

 

Thank you, SG. I always worry about being on the darn benzo for so long. I only took it as prescribed for 6 months before I started my taper. Thought I'd be off in 6 months. I tapered for a year to get to where I am and have been holding for over 2 months now. (Primary doctor has been messing with my gabapentin and Seroquel during this time. So not exactly a pure hold until this past week.)  Obviously I have over a year left to go. It seems so ridiculous. 6 months of a prescription and then years to get off?  But I will be patient for another month. Well, I will do my best imitation of being patient. 

 

Gard

 

Hi Gardener,

 

How are you?  I have not posted in months and stopped by to checked in on everyone.  I was reading your above post and noticed you mentioned gabapentin.  This was just prescribed  for me to FINALLY help me get off of this last bit of ativan.

 

I am leery of new meds but am still scared to finish my taper because of the withdrawal symptoms that I got last time: the sensitivity to lights and the sense of depersonalization.

 

Will gabapentin just be another med that I will have to taper off of?  Does it have lots of side effects.

 

Thanks so much.

doodle dog

 

Doodle! I've been thinking about you and wondering how you're doing. I'm sorry you're having a hard time. I have been, too, and have been holding for 2 months. I think it is paying off. Symptoms are improving.

 

Yes, gabapentin needs to be tapered. Some people say the taper is easy and some say it's hard. When I recently cut mine back (pretty aggressively), it was painful; but not as painful as a benzo cut.

 

Many years ago I was on a low dose of gabapentin (100mg 3 times/day) for autoimmune neuropathy and slowly tapered off of it with no symptoms at all.

 

Now I'm at 200+200+300 of gabapentin for Restless Leg Syndrome, neuropathy, and tapering symptoms. I found it very sedating at first, could hardly function, but I seem to be getting used to it. It's not as sedating as it used to be. I actually have been driving and running errands some days and have not yet crashed the car (but came close today ).

 

Years ago when I took it for neuropathy, the pain clinic doctor said they start people on gabapentin low and build up slowly to minimize side effects (first 100mg just at bedtime, then twice a day then 3 times a day, and then upping to 200mg, 300mg, until they get a dose that works).  This time, my primary just hit me with 300+300+300. Holy mackerel! Depressing, sedating, awful. So I would recommend starting low and building up if you decide to try it.

 

I will say gabapentin does have a short half-life and I'd probably feel better dosing it 4 times/ day, but I don't want to. I hate having my life revolve around taking meds. And I want to keep the doses as evenly spaced as possible to keep things as steady as possible. So I'm actually dosing both the Librium and the gabapentin together spaced very close to 8 hours apart as a compromise between the two for simplicity.

 

I would also say, to be safe, wait a good long time after your last benzo dose before you try to reduce your gabapentin. I think people have gotten into trouble by cutting another med too quickly after being off of their benzo. The brain needs healing time.

 

Hope that helps and it is so good to hear from you!

 

Gard

 

P.S. Should mention that the gabapentin does sometimes make me twitch, little tiny muscle jerks, but not often, not even every day. And I have a propensity toward that side effect from meds.

[[ga...]]

Doodle, Ativan is very short-acting. Why not taper both doses down together rather than eliminating one of them? I found that as I got lower on my Xanax, I need to dose more frequently, not less frequently. Just a thought.

 

Gard