Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[ba...]]

Miranda Jane, so sorry to hear of your MT challenges-and the loss of your dog :'(. But from what I know of you through BB, you must have given your critter a wonderful life, followed by the 'gift' of not suffering at the end, so you are an angel-even if you don't feel that way right now (grief is so raw at this point).

 

Since I began my valium taper over the past 7-8? months, we lost our elderly dog followed by a 10ish year youngish cat (heart of the household, that rascal) in a 2 week period. Then just over a week ago another 10ish year old 'friendly feral' I rescued went downhill badly over a w'end, and was gone by Monday afternoon.

 

These animal losses have been one of the things I most dreaded while feeling fragile; the 17 yr. old JRT was sad but not tragic, but still hard, and the younger cats simply heartbreaking. So I definitely feel your pain, but maybe we can both try to remember we gave those critters a GOOD life, sigh.

 

And you are doing well with your taper, even if the sxs are not fun; I'm still just under 16 mg after a failed 8 mo titration and do over c/o, so 6ish mg sounds sooo much better to me. We'll get there eventually, even at a glacial/snail's pace if need be; we have to believe.

 

Hugs to you on your dog loss, again, so hard :'(. But people are usually tougher than we think we are; our hearts break, and the cracks let in another lost critter/soul that we'll keep safe forever. Stay strong, but let yourself feel...

 

p.s. hope you have a good vet; mine let me talk for an hour during my most recent awful visit, sigh. Oh, and I totally get the 'robbed of years of life' and 'emotional wreck' stuff. Sometimes just flossing my teeth feeling like climbing Everest, and I'm surprised I'm not dehydrated by weeping, but one step at a time, huh?

[[no...]]

Hi SG  I don't know if you would remember probably not all the questions you answer on here daily  But a couple of months ago I was trying to find other *solvents* that we may be able to use after I found evidence on a science link  which I posted on here, that Glycerine I was going to try using to make a suspension can make the drug clump together so that was out the window. 

 

Anyway while still looking what else can be used I came across a post on  The Valium/Diazepam support group where a posted said he had liquid Valium made using Almond oil that was compounded by a pharmacy using almond oil which is a new one on me.  I use it as a moisturiser  and had no knowledge about its use as a solvent , then went researching and found this.....

 

''The term “Almond Oil” is sometime a confusing term. Almond oil can be extracted by cold crushing of the almond kernel and contains mainly saturated and unsaturated fatty acids. Oleic, Linoleic and Palmitic acids are the main constituents. This oil has many uses but one major use is in the Cosmetic/Health industries where it is used as body oil or as solvent allowing other non polar chemicals to be mixed.''  “Essential Almond oil” or “Essence of Almond” is predominantly benzaldehyde and is used in food as an essence of “almond”.

 

Although almond oil contains natural antioxidants it does have a “shelf life”. Health regulations require chemical testing to be carried out on the “safeness of the oil”. FFA, Free Fatty Acids, and Peroxide Values are two such tests.

Chemistry of Almond Oil http://mv.picse.net/alkoloids/almonds/chemistry-of-almond-oil/

 

 

So anyone that has *pharmaceutical knowledge* what do you reckon on Almond oil to make  in place of PG and Alcohol? I know others have used Glycerine as I was going to but after finding it clumps the drug I gave it a wide berth, and being as its an oil then it would make a solution not a  suspension wouldn't it?  I always get those two mixed up on can't think straght days like today So please  correct it if its wrong

 

 

Love Nova xxx  :smitten:

[[...]]

Hi SG  I don't know if you would remember probably not all the questions you answer on here daily  But a couple of months ago I was trying to find other *solvents* that we may be able to use after I found evidence on a science link  which I posted on here, that Glycerine I was going to try using to make a suspension can make the drug clump together so that was out the window. 

 

Anyway while still looking what else can be used I came across a post on  The Valium/Diazepam support group where a posted said he had liquid Valium made using Almond oil that was compounded by a pharmacy using almond oil which is a new one on me.  I use it as a moisturiser  and had no knowledge about its use as a solvent , then went researching and found this.....

 

''The term “Almond Oil” is sometime a confusing term. Almond oil can be extracted by cold crushing of the almond kernel and contains mainly saturated and unsaturated fatty acids. Oleic, Linoleic and Palmitic acids are the main constituents. This oil has many uses but one major use is in the Cosmetic/Health industries where it is used as body oil or as solvent allowing other non polar chemicals to be mixed.''  “Essential Almond oil” or “Essence of Almond” is predominantly benzaldehyde and is used in food as an essence of “almond”.

 

Although almond oil contains natural antioxidants it does have a “shelf life”. Health regulations require chemical testing to be carried out on the “safeness of the oil”. FFA, Free Fatty Acids, and Peroxide Values are two such tests.

Chemistry of Almond Oil http://mv.picse.net/alkoloids/almonds/chemistry-of-almond-oil/

 

 

So anyone that has *pharmaceutical knowledge* what do you reckon on Almond oil to make  in place of PG and Alcohol? I know others have used Glycerine as I was going to but after finding it clumps the drug I gave it a wide berth, and being as its an oil then it would make a solution not a  suspension wouldn't it?  I always get those two mixed up on can't think straght days like today So please  correct it if its wrong

 

 

Love Nova xxx  :smitten:

 

I remember your post about glycerin.  I'm glad you're still trying to find new solvents.  I have to admit I've pretty much stopped looking since what we have seems to be enough, but there may be better choices out there.

 

I've seen where almond oil is sometimes used by compounding pharmacies to make liquids.  Although some benzos (or all?) are fat-soluble, I am not sure they dissolve when almond oil is used as it always seems to be referred to as a suspension liquid whenever I have come across references to drug liquids made from it on the web.  It seems to be advertised as a suspending liquid.  Perhaps benzos just happen to dissolve in it?  But, if that were true, why wouldn't the pharma companies use it for their benzo liquids?  None of them seem to.  IDK, I just don't know enough about it.

[[Mi...]]

Bablatrice - thank you for your kind words about having our dog put down. I keep crying, but am trying to move on. Somehow, this loss seems bigger than past pet losses. Maybe it's because I'm not active and I don't have other things to distract me. And I'm home all the time, where the house seems emptier. Maybe it's because I'm so much older now and realize that in 16 more years (her lifetime) I will be 83 years old. Maybe it's because I believe it's unlikely we will get another dog. At my age, the losses add up - loss of mother and in-laws, loss of job, loss of health. I'm trying to take this taper one day at a time, but some days, like today, will be extra hard.

 

My husband will be going out with friends to an art gallery show tonight, but I'm too nauseated, shaky, stressed to go anywhere. I've been this way for about a year. My home is my sanctuary and my prison. Will this withdrawal never end? At least not for a year or two. I feel like I can't stand this any more.

 

MirandaJane

[Guest [LA...]]

Hi All!

 

Newbie here looking for some advice. I'm a relatively short-term user. I've felt bad since I tried c/t down to 0 last Friday, and am just starting to feel better today. I've had to take time off work, and will be off all next week (maybe longer depending on sxs). I'm down to 0.25 daily dry cutting.

 

I'm considering micro tapering and just saw I have 23 1-mg pills left. What would y'all recommend going forward?

 

Thanks in advance! 

[[jr...]]

Hi All!

 

Newbie here looking for some advice. I'm a relatively short-term user. I've felt bad since I tried c/t down to 0 last Friday, and am just starting to feel better today. I've had to take time off work, and will be off all next week (maybe longer depending on sxs). I'm down to 0.25 daily dry cutting.

 

I'm considering micro tapering and just saw I have 23 1-mg pills left. What would y'all recommend going forward?

 

Thanks in advance! 

 

dissolve your .25A into 2ml etoh and 48ml water. Remove 1/2 ml the first day and discard it. Remove 1ml the second day and discard it. and so on.this will reduce you 14% in 14 days. If you find this is too fast , then discard less per day.

 

 

 

 

[Guest [Fu...]]

Sorry, I made a few typo's in my initial post. I was taking 2.5 mg's of Klonopin daily at the start of my taper. I took 2 mg's dry, liquefied .5 in 100mL's (not 10 haha) and removed 1.2 mL's every day. I am nearing the end of that first .5 taper and I feel just as terrible as I did when I began while I was in tolerance except my DP and agoraphobia have gotten worse. But they were pretty bad to begin with so I think I should just continue with 1.2 mL's daily cut out of 100 for the next .5 with now 1.5 taken dry.

[[...]]

Sorry, I made a few typo's in my initial post. I was taking 2.5 mg's of Klonopin daily at the start of my taper. I took 2 mg's dry, liquefied .5 in 100mL's (not 10 haha) and removed 1.2 mL's every day. I am nearing the end of that first .5 taper and I feel just as terrible as I did when I began while I was in tolerance except my DP and agoraphobia have gotten worse. But they were pretty bad to begin with so I think I should just continue with 1.2 mL's daily cut out of 100 for the next .5 with now 1.5 taken dry.

 

If you feel symptoms have gotten worse I'd either hold or reduce my cut size. I would not push through - these drugs do not work that way.

[[ga...]]

Sorry, I made a few typo's in my initial post. I was taking 2.5 mg's of Klonopin daily at the start of my taper. I took 2 mg's dry, liquefied .5 in 100mL's (not 10 haha) and removed 1.2 mL's every day. I am nearing the end of that first .5 taper and I feel just as terrible as I did when I began while I was in tolerance except my DP and agoraphobia have gotten worse. But they were pretty bad to begin with so I think I should just continue with 1.2 mL's daily cut out of 100 for the next .5 with now 1.5 taken dry.

 

If you feel symptoms have gotten worse I'd either hold or reduce my cut size. I would not push through - these drugs do not work that way.

 

That's what I'm doing. Holding. Been holding for over 2 months. Very hard not to get discouraged when you're making no progress toward getting off. But I do think I have seen a slight improvement in my symptoms and my doctor wants me to keep holding. I'm with my primary now since my anti-benzo psychiatrist left. She is not anti-benzo.

 

Do you think there's anything to gain from holding so long? I did manage to start my hold at an even number of capsules, so that's one advantage, no dissolving. 

 

Gard

[[...]]

If you feel symptoms have gotten worse I'd either hold or reduce my cut size. I would not push through - these drugs do not work that way.

 

That's what I'm doing. Holding. Been holding for over 2 months. Very hard not to get discouraged when you're making no progress toward getting off. But I do think I have seen a slight improvement in my symptoms and my doctor wants me to keep holding. I'm with my primary now since my anti-benzo psychiatrist left. She is not anti-benzo.

 

Do you think there's anything to gain from holding so long? I did manage to start my hold at an even number of capsules, so that's one advantage, no dissolving. 

 

Gard

 

Yes, I do.  I believe the body is always working on the problem so time is not wasted during holds.  I think long holds are a very good thing and will pay off in time.

[[St...]]

SG, I updosed 5 % a week ago and have felt no improvement at all, in fact feel worse, is this an indication that it is not going to work to updose?  I feel like I have the flu and am much weaker than before I did it....

[[jr...]]

Sorry, I made a few typo's in my initial post. I was taking 2.5 mg's of Klonopin daily at the start of my taper. I took 2 mg's dry, liquefied .5 in 100mL's (not 10 haha) and removed 1.2 mL's every day. I am nearing the end of that first .5 taper and I feel just as terrible as I did when I began while I was in tolerance except my DP and agoraphobia have gotten worse. But they were pretty bad to begin with so I think I should just continue with 1.2 mL's daily cut out of 100 for the next .5 with now 1.5 taken dry.

 

If you feel symptoms have gotten worse I'd either hold or reduce my cut size. I would not push through - these drugs do not work that way.

 

That's what I'm doing. Holding. Been holding for over 2 months. Very hard not to get discouraged when you're making no progress toward getting off. But I do think I have seen a slight improvement in my symptoms and my doctor wants me to keep holding. I'm with my primary now since my anti-benzo psychiatrist left. She is not anti-benzo.

 

Do you think there's anything to gain from holding so long? I did manage to start my hold at an even number of capsules, so that's one advantage, no dissolving. 

 

Gard

 

I think long holds are beneficial in that we can only take so much suffering at one time. I also think updoses are appropriate when necessary to make us feel better. I want to be off these meds but I also have to live doing it!!!

[[jr...]]

SG, I updosed 5 % a week ago and have felt no improvement at all, in fact feel worse, is this an indication that it is not going to work to updose?  I feel like I have the flu and am much weaker than before I did it....

 

Stella, when I updosed in March, it took 3 weeks of holding for me to see any improvement.

[[...]]

SG, I updosed 5 % a week ago and have felt no improvement at all, in fact feel worse, is this an indication that it is not going to work to updose?  I feel like I have the flu and am much weaker than before I did it....

 

That's weird.  The problem is a shortage of benzo - that's what caused the symptoms.  Why would adding 5% make you feel worse?

[[ga...]]

If you feel symptoms have gotten worse I'd either hold or reduce my cut size. I would not push through - these drugs do not work that way.

 

That's what I'm doing. Holding. Been holding for over 2 months. Very hard not to get discouraged when you're making no progress toward getting off. But I do think I have seen a slight improvement in my symptoms and my doctor wants me to keep holding. I'm with my primary now since my anti-benzo psychiatrist left. She is not anti-benzo.

 

Do you think there's anything to gain from holding so long? I did manage to start my hold at an even number of capsules, so that's one advantage, no dissolving. 

 

Gard

 

Yes, I do.  I believe the body is always working on the problem so time is not wasted during holds.  I think long holds are a very good thing and will pay off in time.

 

Thank you, SG. I always worry about being on the darn benzo for so long. I only took it as prescribed for 6 months before I started my taper. Thought I'd be off in 6 months. I tapered for a year to get to where I am and have been holding for over 2 months now. (Primary doctor has been messing with my gabapentin and Seroquel during this time. So not exactly a pure hold until this past week.)  Obviously I have over a year left to go. It seems so ridiculous. 6 months of a prescription and then years to get off?  But I will be patient for another month. Well, I will do my best imitation of being patient. 

 

Gard

[[ga...]]

Sorry, I made a few typo's in my initial post. I was taking 2.5 mg's of Klonopin daily at the start of my taper. I took 2 mg's dry, liquefied .5 in 100mL's (not 10 haha) and removed 1.2 mL's every day. I am nearing the end of that first .5 taper and I feel just as terrible as I did when I began while I was in tolerance except my DP and agoraphobia have gotten worse. But they were pretty bad to begin with so I think I should just continue with 1.2 mL's daily cut out of 100 for the next .5 with now 1.5 taken dry.

 

If you feel symptoms have gotten worse I'd either hold or reduce my cut size. I would not push through - these drugs do not work that way.

 

That's what I'm doing. Holding. Been holding for over 2 months. Very hard not to get discouraged when you're making no progress toward getting off. But I do think I have seen a slight improvement in my symptoms and my doctor wants me to keep holding. I'm with my primary now since my anti-benzo psychiatrist left. She is not anti-benzo.

 

Do you think there's anything to gain from holding so long? I did manage to start my hold at an even number of capsules, so that's one advantage, no dissolving. 

 

Gard

 

I think long holds are beneficial in that we can only take so much suffering at one time. I also think updoses are appropriate when necessary to make us feel better. I want to be off these meds but I also have to live doing it!!!

 

Are you holding, JR?  (Yes, I am still speaking to you even after what your parrot and that cat did to my recliner on the "puddings" thread. )

[[Ul...]]

Hey SG!

 

I remember you talking here quite a bit about the CYP3A4 enzyme and how it works. You answered a couple questions for me, but would you mind answering one more? I know it's basic, but I'd still like to ask: When I see that a medication or supplement says that "it's known to inhibit the CYP3A4 enzyme....", how does that relate to or effect my K? What's going on when that enzyme is being inhibited? Is that a good thing?

 

On an unrelated subject (I think), I'm going to be getting my back sliced up by a surgeon before too long. Had a recent MRI, but still have a nerve conduction test this Wed. and then will meet again with the orthopedic surgeon on Fri. to learn the best way to perform the surgery and then set the date. It'll be a complicated and pretty major surgery with a long recovery. Obviously, I dread all of that since I don't know how everything will affect my benzo and any potential taper. As you know, I've had to hold so many times due to other challenges, but at least I've got it down from 6mg/day to 1.48mg/day. Still holding, of course.

 

Hope you're still improving!! Thanks for all you do.

 

Jeff

[[St...]]

I don't know SG, it feels like a cut again, maybe I just need to hold longer like JR mentioned....this isn't tolerance sxs is it, to the Ativan, I have been holding a lot the last six months, through all the changing of dose times and going to LT, could I be in tolerance to the drug and need to cut?  I'm so confused, just having a lot of nausea and twitching and weird breathing problems...are those withdrawal sxs, or maybe tolerance?     

[Guest [Fu...]]

I mean I felt absolutely terrible the entire time I was in tolerance withdrawal so this is only slightly worse therefore I don't know why I would hold. It's going to be unpleasant no matter how long I hold and even during that hold my symptoms are going to be terrible. It's absolutely ridiculous how long it takes to get off this drug. It just took me 80 days to get down .5 off of my 2.5 total and that isn't slow enough? I mean isn't it pretty much a given that symptoms are going to get at least somewhat worse during a taper? I honestly can't take this process you need the patience of a saint. It's absolute torture. And all of this to STILL maybe end up with protracted withdrawal syndrome? It's truly unbelievable.

[[Le...]]

After months of anxiety and fear about switching to a LT I finally mixed my first Valium solution using PG. My skin burns and my feet are ice cold but I don't care,  I'm one step closer to getting off this poison.

 

SG, JR, Builder thank you for being so patient with me as I struggled to make this first step. 

 

Hope everyone has the best day they can.

[[bu...]]

After months of anxiety and fear about switching to a LT I finally mixed my first Valium solution using PG. My skin burns and my feet are ice cold but I don't care,  I'm one step closer to getting off this poison.

 

SG, JR, Builder thank you for being so patient with me as I struggled to make this first step. 

 

Hope everyone has the best day they can.

 

:thumbsup:

[[...]]

Hey SG!

 

I remember you talking here quite a bit about the CYP3A4 enzyme and how it works. You answered a couple questions for me, but would you mind answering one more? I know it's basic, but I'd still like to ask: When I see that a medication or supplement says that "it's known to inhibit the CYP3A4 enzyme....", how does that relate to or effect my K? What's going on when that enzyme is being inhibited? Is that a good thing?

 

On an unrelated subject (I think), I'm going to be getting my back sliced up by a surgeon before too long. Had a recent MRI, but still have a nerve conduction test this Wed. and then will meet again with the orthopedic surgeon on Fri. to learn the best way to perform the surgery and then set the date. It'll be a complicated and pretty major surgery with a long recovery. Obviously, I dread all of that since I don't know how everything will affect my benzo and any potential taper. As you know, I've had to hold so many times due to other challenges, but at least I've got it down from 6mg/day to 1.48mg/day. Still holding, of course.

 

Hope you're still improving!! Thanks for all you do.

 

Jeff

 

Hi Jeff,

 

K is cleared out of your body by 3A4 and any drug or food that slows this process will result in your K levels drifting upward.  This is what 3A4 inhibitors do.  They effectively increase the half life of K temporarily and this results in a temporary increase in blood levels: it's the same as an updose.

 

This is not as bad as the opposite problem where a drug or food speeds up your K clearance, as that would temporarily cut your dose...obviously not good.  But I don't think either is a good thing as they both make your benzo levels jump around.  And it's uncontrolled too...that is, we don't know the degree of the effect.  I've rarely seen it quantified.  Usually inhibitors and inducers are referred to as just strong, medium, or weak and that's the end of it.  There is no information such as X amount of this inhibitor will produce a Y percent dose change.

 

When unexplained things happen during a taper it's good to know about this as a possible explanation.  Other meds are always suspect and it is a good idea to search them for inhibition and induction.  It's not uncommon to get a hit on 3A4 as that's the main one for clearing drugs.  The info is out there on the net.

[[...]]

I don't know SG, it feels like a cut again, maybe I just need to hold longer like JR mentioned....this isn't tolerance sxs is it, to the Ativan, I have been holding a lot the last six months, through all the changing of dose times and going to LT, could I be in tolerance to the drug and need to cut?  I'm so confused, just having a lot of nausea and twitching and weird breathing problems...are those withdrawal sxs, or maybe tolerance?   

 

What is tolerance?  I've never heard or seen a explanation.  We are just supposed to believe it happens like magic...that's not for me.  I'd rather look for tangible reasons.  I think a lot of what people think is tolerance withdrawal is explainable as other effects that cause plain withdrawal.  Here's an example: let's say you are in a long hold and you happen to start another med that speeds up your benzo clearance.  You have been holding for a month yet symptoms suddenly worsen out of the blue.  You don't make the connection to the new med and conclude this is tolerance withdrawal.  But what happened was actually nothing unusual.  The new med effectively shortened the half life of your benzo, which was like a cut, and you went into plain withdrawal.  I think this kind of thing happens quite a bit.

 

I don't know what you should do.  You really haven't hit it very hard with updosing so far...just 5%.  I'm not a big believer that removing the drug should be rushed.  I'm sure it is possible that the drug causes other problems in some people, but I think the long pole is always the damage caused and we are forced to march to this regardless.  I agree with JR.  My feeling is to keep holding or updose.

[[...]]

I mean I felt absolutely terrible the entire time I was in tolerance withdrawal so this is only slightly worse therefore I don't know why I would hold. It's going to be unpleasant no matter how long I hold and even during that hold my symptoms are going to be terrible. It's absolutely ridiculous how long it takes to get off this drug. It just took me 80 days to get down .5 off of my 2.5 total and that isn't slow enough? I mean isn't it pretty much a given that symptoms are going to get at least somewhat worse during a taper? I honestly can't take this process you need the patience of a saint. It's absolute torture. And all of this to STILL maybe end up with protracted withdrawal syndrome? It's truly unbelievable.

 

Yep, it can be quite unbelievable.  I went through the mill so I know what you mean.  All I can tell you is to focus on feeling better rather than getting lower.  The process is too long to push through and these drugs can push back awfully hard and long term.

[[jr...]]

I mean I felt absolutely terrible the entire time I was in tolerance withdrawal so this is only slightly worse therefore I don't know why I would hold. It's going to be unpleasant no matter how long I hold and even during that hold my symptoms are going to be terrible. It's absolutely ridiculous how long it takes to get off this drug. It just took me 80 days to get down .5 off of my 2.5 total and that isn't slow enough? I mean isn't it pretty much a given that symptoms are going to get at least somewhat worse during a taper? I honestly can't take this process you need the patience of a saint. It's absolute torture. And all of this to STILL maybe end up with protracted withdrawal syndrome? It's truly unbelievable.

 

Yep, it can be quite unbelievable.  I went through the mill so I know what you mean.  All I can tell you is to focus on feeling better rather than getting lower.  The process is too long to push through and these drugs can push back awfully hard and long term.

 

Unbelievable is an understatement!!! SG is absolutely right about feeling better. We can reduce our drug total and still feel reasonably well if we will just go very very slow. This is not a race but a taper to freedom. Do not worry about the future or protracted. Just keep telling your self that "I will taper slowly to zero and walk away." Many have done it and so will we!!!