Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[St...]]

I know that makes sense, but the Ambien does help me sleep, I would rather do it at the end of the taper....SG do you think I need to go all the way up to 1 mg for an updose?

 

[[...]]

I know that makes sense, but the Ambien does help me sleep, so I would rather wait til the end of my taper to get rid of it.  But, since my total dose is .915 I should probably updose to the 1mg. right?

 

Ambien's half life is two hours.  That has the effect that one third of your benzo dose is jumping up and down each day.  Very uneven.  Ativan is no prize either, but these Z drugs take the cake.  If you don't want to replace it I'd at least get rid of it first.  But my opinion is to cross it to Ativan.

[[St...]]

I'm not fighting you SG, but I just don't sleep without it, Ativan doesn't help me sleep....I've been there.  So, can't I just updose and keep the Ambien for awhile?  TO me I will be replacing one bad thing with another bad thing, not sleeping. 

[[Va...]]

I'm not fighting you SG, but I just don't sleep without it, Ativan doesn't help me sleep....I've been there.  So, can't I just updose and keep the Ambien for awhile?  TO me I will be replacing one bad thing with another bad thing, not sleeping.

Hi Stella.  I'm not telling you what to do, but agree with SG.  Taking out the Ambien would make your situation less complicated in the long run.  You would stabilize eventually after making the switch, but may have some withdrawal sxs as any change brings them on.  It would save you from having to make a change when you get lower on the Ativan and it becomes more difficult.  JMO.--V

[[...]]

I'm not fighting you SG, but I just don't sleep without it, Ativan doesn't help me sleep....I've been there.  So, can't I just updose and keep the Ambien for awhile?  TO me I will be replacing one bad thing with another bad thing, not sleeping.

 

I just suggest, you decide.  I'll still support you either way.  Have you tried other sleep aids?

[[St...]]

Thanks for your opinion....but, I would still like to stay on the ambien and just do the updose thing I think....I am not in good shape at all right now, weak and haven't been eating at all, very depressed and nauseated, been changing things around a lot this last month, in times of dosing and going to LT, my allergies are rearing their ugly head and I just feel like I need to stabilize and then think about doing some other things down the line...I might be in a stronger place emotionally and physically at that time to handle it. 

 

I would like to know how much to updose.  Because I felt better from the Ambien at night, I'm pretty sure an updose would help me stabilize for now....that is what I need right now...thanks!

[[Va...]]

Thanks for your opinion....but, I would still like to stay on the ambien and just do the updose thing I think....I am not in good shape at all right now, weak and haven't been eating at all, very depressed and nauseated, been changing things around a lot this last month, in times of dosing and going to LT, just feel like I need to stabilize and then think about doing some other things down the line...I might be in a stronger place emotionally and physically at that time to handle it. 

 

I would like to know how much to updose.  Because I felt better from the Ambien at night, I'm pretty sure an updose would help me stabilize for now....that is what I need right now...thanks!

You do what ya gotta do to get through this. As far as updosing, you might want to try the dose you were last stable at or start higher and come down to that level over a couple of days. I hope it all works out!  Just remember to hold (you knew I would say this lol) until you feel stable again. It does take time to stabilize for many after an updose. --V

[[Kg...]]

Stella for your signature it looks like you held at .6 mg of the Ativan. How were you feeling at that point in time and how often were you dosing.  If it were me ( and it has been) I would go up to a little over .6 mg first perhaps to .650 and see if that works - you can always add in more if you need to depending on how you feel.  The trick is to get to the dose where you feel good and no one can tell you what that will be. If you need to go up to 1 mg or want to just feel good and think this will absolutely work for you then do it.  I ended up having to go up to a greater amt than I wanted to but it gave me a much needed break.

 

The one positive thing is that  when I started tapering  again the up dose part was not as hard to get off of because I was not on it for long so that I was able to cut out pretty quickly. In fact I got down pretty quickly to the dose that I had to up dose from.    So take whatever you need to get stable and go from there. 

 

I guess the one thing I don't understand is why with so much interdose withdrawal you are sticking with the Ativan. I would go to a more long acting drug since having the stability of the benzo vs the up and down in your blood level helps us in the long run in getting off of these drugs.  I am sure you have your reasons my benzo brain just doesn't remember what they are. 

 

 

[[St...]]

Thanks V.....I'm so undecided it is bad, wondering if I should go up gradually, I am so reactive to every little thing I do in this taper, so unstable ever since the beginning of the taper which has been over a year now.  If I go up to a dose and it isn't enough, is it ok to go up some more?  Do you know?  It won't cause kindling will it?  I guess that is my greatest fear, I'm not concerned with how long this will take anymore...I was at first, but now just want to get thru it as smooth as I can....and YES, I will hold after I updose...lol!

 

SG,  is the magic number 1 mg? to cover the .915? 

[[St...]]

Hi Kgirl    Thank you for replying.  I haven't crossed over to a longer acting benzo because my doc won't do it....and I can't afford to pay out of pocket for another doctor, I am retired and on a limited budget. 

 

I did not feel good at all at .6 either, I haven't felt good for the entire taper to be honest, I didn't start out stable, I came fresh from radiation treatments for breast cancer, and I was in tolerance from the Ativan, my doc cut me down 1 mg right away, and then has let me taper at my own speed....I was on dry cutting .01 a week, but feeling really bad, and that is why I crossed to LT in February, thinking that might help, then went to 5 times dosing, held a month, and went to 6 times dosing, :smitten: and have held 2 weeks more, but feeling worse instead of better.  It looks like the Ambien is making my dose to be .915 instead of the .6mg I thought it was, which could be why I am in trouble,  I am figuring my six doses from the .6mg and maybe need to figure from the .915, waiting on SG to see if that is true, don't want to give up the AMbien cause it helps me sleep...I'm still not built up from the cancer treatment yet I think...I just need to stabilize.

 

Thanks for sharing your story, I like that you said it was successful and you were able to taper down faster, that would be great.  I will probably be doing the updose, just waiting for a bit more info.  glad you are doing well.  thanks again.

[[St...]]

lol!!! don't know how I got all those smittens in there...oh well....

[[...]]

Thanks V.....I'm so undecided it is bad, wondering if I should go up gradually, I am so reactive to every little thing I do in this taper, so unstable ever since the beginning of the taper which has been over a year now.  If I go up to a dose and it isn't enough, is it ok to go up some more?  Do you know?  It won't cause kindling will it?  I guess that is my greatest fear, I'm not concerned with how long this will take anymore...I was at first, but now just want to get thru it as smooth as I can....and YES, I will hold after I updose...lol!

 

SG,  is the magic number 1 mg? to cover the .915? 

 

I'd think in terms of percentages using .915mg as the current dose.  5% increments would be about ~.045mg.  Going up to 1mg (and keeping the Ambien) would be a 44% increase.  That's a lot.  But it depends on how you want to approach it.  Do you want to hit it hard and go for quick relief?  Or do you want to take small steps upward and try to keep the dose as low as possible?

[[St...]]

SG.....I would like to go up in small steps and keep the dose as low as possible, and still get some relief.  One thing I know, I FEEL every little change I make in this taper, so slow is better for me....if my six doses are at 9.95 each right now, how do I figure the 5% increases?  You say .045mg... I apologize for my lack of math skills...I guess what I am wondering is how much would each of my six doses be? I surely don't want to go up 44% lol!  Thanks AGAIN!!!! also, could you show us the math on how to figure the 5%, so we can do it from here on?  ty!

 

[[...]]

SG.....I would like to go up in small steps and keep the dose as low as possible, and still get some relief.  One thing I know, I FEEL every little change I make in this taper, so slow is better for me....if my six doses are at 9.95 each right now, how do I figure the 5% increases?  You say .045mg... I apologize for my lack of math skills...I guess what I am wondering is how much would each of my six doses be? I surely don't want to go up 44% lol!  Thanks AGAIN!!!! also, could you show us the math on how to figure the 5%, so we can do it from here on?  ty!

 

If a A 5% increase is .045mg, that is 4.5ml of your liquid.  Spread between six doses, that would be .75ml more for each, or 10.7ml.

 

To get 5% just multiply the dose by .05...

 

.05 x .915mg = .0458mg

[[St...]]

Thank you sooooooo much SG!!!  We are all set, going to try this.  I am not totally against getting rid of the Ambien at a later time, but feel it is important for me to get stable for awhile and build up some strength.  You will probably be hearing from me about the Ambien later ok?  Thanks so much for all you do for us on the forum, you are so appreciated....

[[...]]

Thank you sooooooo much SG!!!  We are all set, going to try this.  I am not totally against getting rid of the Ambien at a later time, but feel it is important for me to get stable for awhile and build up some strength.  You will probably be hearing from me about the Ambien later ok?  Thanks so much for all you do for us on the forum, you are so appreciated....

 

You're welcome.  And, as Valley said, the effect of Ambien will get rougher.  Right now it is about 33% of your dose.  As you get rid of the Ativan that percentage will creep steadily higher and I would expect the influence of Ambien interdose symptoms to go up.  It is not a good drug to taper.

[[St...]]

Ok, my husband is all confused here , he is doing the math....when we start to taper down from .915...how does that work, just drop down .002 or .003 right?  we were dividing the current dose by 6 to find the single dose amount...

 

we are wondering how to keep a journal on this...59.7 looks so different than .915 , do we go down by 1 each time I drop?  trying to figure out how to find the single dose amount then....man this benzo brain is driving me crazy, can't add 2 and 2 anymore.  we were going to taper .002 a day in the beginning....my husband is confused about the decimal point...is it .915, .914.913?  etc.

 

Could I use tart cherry juice or Unisom instead of Ambien?  I guess I need to understand this to think about it if that makes sense to you....would I just stop the Ambien, and then go up on the Ativan on each dose to make up for it...could I faze in the cherry juice before I stopped the Ambien, so it wouldn't be such a shock?  I know melatonin didn't work for me at all, I ended up in the hospital a couple of years ago before benzos, in fact that is how I got stuck on them and the ambien, because I couldn't sleep.  But, thought the cherry juice helped some if I can remember...Just doing some thinking.....

[[...]]

Ok, my husband is all confused here , he is doing the math....when we start to taper down from .915...how does that work, just drop down .002 or .003 right?  we were dividing the current dose by 6 to find the single dose amount...

 

we are wondering how to keep a journal on this...59.7 looks so different than .915 , do we go down by 1 each time I drop?  trying to figure out how to find the single dose amount then....man this benzo brain is driving me crazy, can't add 2 and 2 anymore.  we were going to taper .002 a day in the beginning....my husband is confused about the decimal point...

 

I'm confused.  Why are you talking about tapering?  I thought you were about to updose.

 

A journal is definitely a good idea.  Keeping track of dose is required.  A spiral notebook works great.  One line a day.

[[St...]]

lol!!!  My mind is jumping ahead, yes, I just took the first 5% updose for my two oclock dose.  I am updosing, not tapering right now....I will ask those questions when the time comes....sorry!!!  I will keep a journal for sure....

[[ga...]]

Stella, I'm really sorry your doctor won't let you cross to a longer benzo. Those short-acting drugs are so hard. I was doing my Xanax 6 times/day, including in the middle of the night. I do think having to dose so often has a psychological effect as well as a physical effect. Your life revolves around your taper. Your brain is always on alert.

 

Have you tried guided imagery meditation to help put your mind on something else for awhile? I'm no good at meditating unless I have a voice to follow, but I do find the guided meditation helpful. You just have to find one that you like the voice and message, find a quiet space, and be gentle with yourself. The latest one I'm doing is from an audiobook called Neurosculpting. The voice is just OK, but I like the imagery and how she lets you do a lot of the choosing of what scenes and colors are meaningful to you as she guides you. It tends to put me to sleep (which the narrator says is just fine, just your brain's way of trying to get into healing mode).

 

I know how awful the no-sleep thing is. I've been in pure hell from it and am slowly working my way back out. Poor sleep really makes your anxiety spike. Anything you can find to help you calm your brain is worth trying.

 

I truly hope you find some relief soon. 

 

Gard

[[Kg...]]

Stella I agree with Gardner life would be so much easier if your doctor gave you an Rx for a longer acting benzo. Does your doctor know how many times a day you have to dose?  It seems cruel and inhuman to put you through this given your circumstances. I would be bringing the Ashton manual with me and begging for an appropriate Rx to a longer acting benzo. 

[[St...]]

Thank you Gard, I really appreciate your thoughtfulness...I am going to give this updose thing a try, went up for two of my doses today and will see how it goes.  I do try to do other things, my hubby and I take a ride every morning and he gets groceries, or we ride to the lake and watch birds etc.  We also try to take a walk in a wooded park near our home every day, the path is about a mile long, and we walk very very slow and careful, it is usually just us in there, a very lovely park...I am trying not to let this taper take over my life.  I don't want to rock the boat too much with my doctor, she has been lenient in letting me taper at my own speed, and I have asked her to read some things, but she says she will just take my word for it...Right now the multiple doses are working out, I think we may have hit on why I was having such sxs, between SG and myself...I am going to try to stabilize here for awhile and then will consider getting off the Ambien, and restabilizing again.  thanks again.... P.S. My doc will cross me over to Klonopin, but I do not want to go on that pill, I know too many who struggle horribly with that one!

[[St...]]

Thanks K, for your reply and kind thoughts....I am going to stick with this for awhile and see how it goes....I am responding ok to the six doses, and hoping that will continue.  My doc has been pretty good about letting me go at my own speed, and I don't want to rock the boat too much, too many doctors are cancelling their patients, I don't want that to happen.  She just doesn't like Valium at all, and doesn't want to talk about it.  And I really don't want to cross over to Klonopin, I see you tapered that, but I know many who have a lot of sxs and trouble with that one....just going to try and stick it out with the Ativan...I know a few people who have made it to the end with the Ativan.  Hoping this updose helps stabilize me and it will get easier than it has been for sure....

[[li...]]

QUESTION RE:CONTAINERS

 

I dissolve my K tablets in 60 ml milk. The plastic baby jars I've been using for a year are starting to leak. Does anyone have a recommendation for something leakproof?

[[ga...]]

Thank you Gard, I really appreciate your thoughtfulness...I am going to give this updose thing a try, went up for two of my doses today and will see how it goes.  I do try to do other things, my hubby and I take a ride every morning and he gets groceries, or we ride to the lake and watch birds etc.  We also try to take a walk in a wooded park near our home every day, the path is about a mile long, and we walk very very slow and careful, it is usually just us in there, a very lovely park...I am trying not to let this taper take over my life.  I don't want to rock the boat too much with my doctor, she has been lenient in letting me taper at my own speed, and I have asked her to read some things, but she says she will just take my word for it...Right now the multiple doses are working out, I think we may have hit on why I was having such sxs, between SG and myself...I am going to try to stabilize here for awhile and then will consider getting off the Ambien, and restabilizing again.  thanks again.... P.S. My doc will cross me over to Klonopin, but I do not want to go on that pill, I know too many who struggle horribly with that one!

 

Have to agree with your concerns over klonopin. My primary wanted to switch me to that and I am very glad I said no. Then I got a psychiatrist who was willing to cross me to Librium, and just in time. He moved away and I'm back to my primary again, but she is happy to stick with his plan so far.

 

I'm glad your husband is so thoughtful and supportive. Can you clone him?   Mine bailed out when I got sick.