Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[ga...]]

 

I think it may be a good idea to updose slightly when starting a LT. I did and really had no problems going to LT. I dont know why there is a problem. I know for me that it was hard to trust the liquid at first but once I got going , me anxiety lessened about the doses.

 

You know, that sounds like it's worth a try.

 

Gard

[[St...]]

SG.....just to add to this confusion, I am two months into a LT and still feeling awful too....I haven't hardly decreased at all because I am so sick everytime I dose the liquid....I tried going from vodka to PG and that didn't help at all, and the pills didn't seem to dissolve well in the PG, so we went back to the vodka, but still feeling so nauseated everytime I dose...doc won't give me valium, I keep trying to convince her, but nope, she won't go for it....I still think the LT feels like I am not taking enough, almost like I don't even dose, I have much increased shaking and tremors etc since going to the liquid tapering....I feel like I have given this a good shot, and am wondering if I should go back to the dry cutting of the Ativan too...I am at 59.7ml a day, dosing 6 times, 9.95ml each dose, 2 0.5 mg  pills in vodka (1ml) and 99ml water, what would an equivalent be if I go back to dry cutting? SOrry, to be such a pain, but feel so much like the others here, it just isn't the same at all for me....what do you think?

[[...]]

SG.....just to add to this confusion, I am two months into a LT and still feeling awful too....I haven't hardly decreased at all because I am so sick everytime I dose the liquid....I tried going from vodka to PG and that didn't help at all, and the pills didn't seem to dissolve well in the PG, so we went back to the vodka, but still feeling so nauseated everytime I dose...doc won't give me valium, I keep trying to convince her, but nope, she won't go for it....I still think the LT feels like I am not taking enough, almost like I don't even dose, I have much increased shaking and tremors etc since going to the liquid tapering....I feel like I have given this a good shot, and am wondering if I should go back to the dry cutting of the Ativan too...I am at 59.7ml a day, dosing 6 times, 9.95ml each dose, 2 0.5 mg  pills in vodka (1ml) and 99ml water, what would an equivalent be if I go back to dry cutting? SOrry, to be such a pain, but feel so much like the others here, it just isn't the same at all for me....what do you think?

 

It's up to you.  Two months is a long time to adjust.  I don't understand why this happens, but I think everyone can do liquid.  I think you need more benzo, for some reason.  Going up in dose would do this, but I can understand being hesitant to do that.

 

Also, we need to remain aware that other factors can be at work.  Other meds and even foods can change your benzo blood level by speeding and slowing clearance.  And things like MSG can flare symptoms.  Think back on the past two months...has there been any changes?  New meds?  New foods?  A lot of processed food?

[[...]]

I know! It makes no sense.  And I was NOT anxious about switching and even did use a little more than the .39/day over the 1 1/2 day period. I felt confident and happy until the sxs hit.... . Just cannot take the ear pain.

 

Thanks for the responses... 

 

And SG, you are right...I usually am a number of days in before the sxs hit and even so, the ear stuff has not been an issue for months now.  (I would call it tinnitus but it's more like pain and pressure and sensitivity to noise than internal ringing or whooshing...but no question it is the nerves that control/affect hearing that go haywire...the weird thing is that I have never, in my life, had any ear issues, not even an ear infection as a child...until this lovely taper experience.)

 

It's just too weird.  If you didn't switch at all you would be fine.  If you had cut 10% you would be fine.  But if you put the same dose in liquid you're a mess.  Too weird.  It is as if the cut were bigger than 10%, but even then, how is it that symptoms hit so soon?  The placebo effect seems to be out.

 

Mana, In the days leading up to the symptoms, was there anything different on your other meds or your diet?  A good dose of MSG?  Think back hard over the past two weeks.  Whatever happened to you, there is a reason.  And, although the timing suggests it was the switch to liquid, that is not necessarily the cause.  In fact, that does not make a lot of sense since we know you don't feel symptoms that soon.  I'm thinking something may have induced your 3A4 enzyme.  The most likely culprit is another med.  Just a possible alternate explanation.

[[St...]]

the only thing I can figure out is I changed from four times to five times of dosing and waited a month or so and then went to six times a week ago, maybe that is what has made things flare?  I am eating the same...watching my diet and not introducing any new foods, trying to eat clean....just an awful lot of nausea yet.  I have been holding for almost 3 weeks after 3 small .001 decreases three days apart, maybe allergies???  I am allergic to spring pollen and that is abundant right now, not taking anything for it.....thanks SG. 

[[jr...]]

the only thing I can figure out is I changed from four times to five times of dosing and waited a month or so and then went to six times a week ago, maybe that is what has made things flare?  I am eating the same...watching my diet and not introducing any new foods, trying to eat clean....just an awful lot of nausea yet.  I have been holding for almost 3 weeks after 3 small .001 decreases three days apart, maybe allergies???  I am allergic to spring pollen and that is abundant right now, not taking anything for it.....thanks SG.

 

I also went from 4 doses to 5 and updosed from .085 to .087

[[Kg...]]

Stella allergies can rev up the s/x of benzos that I know for sure.  If it were me I would try dosing the same dose with pills and see if you feel better. Sometimes things with benzos make no sense but if you feel better it doesn't have to - it just is what it is.  I don't try to figure this out any more I just do what works for me - it may not work for anyone else but I know my own body now and I listen to it. 

[[St...]]

Did you have a big adjustment to going back to dry cutting after the liquid, I find I am just so much more nauseaous (sp?) on the LT, that is my strongest sxs, with the dry I had more aching and benzo flu feelings, I guess it is a toss up as to which sxs I can tolerate...cutting 3/4 of a mg of Ativan into six doses is going to be nothing but dust for sure...will have to think about it....so I would cross over to 59.7 on the scale?  I was going down .001 on the scale once a week, wasn't feeling very well then either which is why I wanted to try the LT.  Thanks for the suggestion Kgirl, I am going to think on this.  Hope you are doing well....

[[my...]]

Yes, SG.....I did try another med....and I tried it before the day of the LT.  I had a scary dive - short lived but scary - into a kind of depression that has hit me a few times during my taper but each time it has been situational so I forget that it could be a w/d symptom. This never happened to me pre-taper or rather pre-tolerance.  It was the reason I increased my total dose from 1 to 2 mg in 2013 and the reason I began to taper in Oct. 2014.  Always the same sense of doom and hopelessness.  This was NOT me!  Yes, I've dealt with depression in my life, but mostly anxiety.  I had a very full life, career, friends, family, marriage....this was - again - troubling and different.  I resisted taking

AD's...never took them and survived and thrived. 

 

Anyhow, my doctor had recently Rx'd Zoloft for me after one of these dives, as you and I discussed a month or so ago and I finally took it - 1/4 of a 25 mg pill in the a.m. on Mon, Tues and

Weds..each day feeling very ambivalent about taking an AD.  Weds I began the LT.  By Weds night my ear sxs were raging.  They continue..even now....I attributed the increased sxs to the LT but know that the Zoloft may have triggered them.  I stopped the Zoloft after three days.  My ear sxs were awful on

Thursday, the day I decided the LT wasn't helping...by Thurs night I was back on dry pills (night time dose).

 

Mystery solved, I guess.  I wonder when the ear sxs will calm down. Am planning to go on an adventure today (a drive and shopping expedition) and spend the night too.  Hoping distraction and some indulgence will help....

 

Even though I thought about the connection between Zoloft and ear pain (many experience tinnitus within days of starting Zoloft) I primarily blamed the liquid as this taper has been the cause of so much misery, it was my default explanation.  Anyhow -- no more AD's for me and no more liquid just because I'd rather stay with what I know which is the dry cut method.

 

I'm sorry not to have shared this before now.  I compartmentalized it.  But after reading your post this morning...it made sense.

 

[[my...]]

BTW, the depression lifted within 24 hours...no AD works that fast.  It was a wave, an overreaction to an upsetting "thing" that happened.  Should have just gone for a walk.....

[[Ju...]]

Stuck in a cycle of insomnia, headaches, sweaty, oversensitive to smell and noise, numb face, intense anxiety. But I got down to 3.5mg valium almost a week ago and am holding for a few days. Will start micro taper again today I think.

 

Amazing how you can have so many deep thoughts ...or stupid thoughts sometimes, at 3am. I'm sure many of you have had sleep issues and a tingly face at some point right, this is normal?

 

I'm trying to keep my sense of humour when possible. While awake and anxious earlier this morning I tried to calm down by distracting my nerves with some photography and tried to take a cool photo of the moon by leaning out my window a little and dropped my camera but luckily less than a metre, it landed on grass and was a small cheap camera. Sorry for the swearing you may have heard, sleeping neighbours! 

[[pe...]]

Morning,

 

I tried.  Wish I had better news.  Granted, I didn't use the PG as it was on order until yesterday afternoon but for the 3 doses on Tuesday and 2 yesterday, I tried the liquid, shaking the vodka solution well, measuring carefully using the same amount of K in the same number of doses each time.  But.....

 

I felt as though I had gone CT.  Never since the early months of my taper did I have ear pain and pressure like that.  I feel bad as you, SG, especially, gave me such careful and encouraging advice and support.

 

But last night I returned to pill cutting/weighing.  Same this morning. 

 

I plan to remain at my current dose of .39mg until stable and then either return to C/H or do a dry cut MT.  The scale may not be perfect but for the most part I have done alright...many days feeling fine.  Really fine.  Even though things may have and probably would have smoothed out if I had given the LT more time, it was just too painful!  Really, the ear sxs had subsided - even during the the days after a cut (5%) - by this point in my taper where I began to think they were a thing of the past.  For the past several months my only sxs during the harder days of a cut were increased muscle tension and chest pressure.....nothing compared to the ear pain.  A walk in the park in comparison.

 

So...maybe I'm one of those people who just can't do a LT.  We'll see about a MT using the scale once I return to a baseline that feels OK.

 

I continue to appreciate your ongoing support.... 

 

Mana. 

 

I crossed to Liquid 2014 and it was hell ...but i managed to stabilise after 3 weeks i became manic on it...then the doc wouldnt prescribe it again and i had to go back to tablets and that was hell as well...but i crossed over in one go each time. Which is partly why im terrified to go across now cause im so sick and back then i was able to get out and about now i have so many horrific symptoms i cant afford to end up near a shrink.

[[Sh...]]

Yes, SG.....I did try another med....and I tried it before the day of the LT.  I had a scary dive - short lived but scary - into a kind of depression that has hit me a few times during my taper but each time it has been situational so I forget that it could be a w/d symptom. This never happened to me pre-taper or rather pre-tolerance.  It was the reason I increased my total dose from 1 to 2 mg in 2013 and the reason I began to taper in Oct. 2014.  Always the same sense of doom and hopelessness.  This was NOT me!  Yes, I've dealt with depression in my life, but mostly anxiety.  I had a very full life, career, friends, family, marriage....this was - again - troubling and different.  I resisted taking

AD's...never took them and survived and thrived. 

 

Anyhow, my doctor had recently Rx'd Zoloft for me after one of these dives, as you and I discussed a month or so ago and I finally took it - 1/4 of a 25 mg pill in the a.m. on Mon, Tues and

Weds..each day feeling very ambivalent about taking an AD.  Weds I began the LT.  By Weds night my ear sxs were raging.  They continue..even now....I attributed the increased sxs to the LT but know that the Zoloft may have triggered them.  I stopped the Zoloft after three days.  My ear sxs were awful on

Thursday, the day I decided the LT wasn't helping...by Thurs night I was back on dry pills (night time dose).

 

Mystery solved, I guess.  I wonder when the ear sxs will calm down. Am planning to go on an adventure today (a drive and shopping expedition) and spend the night too.  Hoping distraction and some indulgence will help....

 

Even though I thought about the connection between Zoloft and ear pain (many experience tinnitus within days of starting Zoloft) I primarily blamed the liquid as this taper has been the cause of so much misery, it was my default explanation.  Anyhow -- no more AD's for me and no more liquid just because I'd rather stay with what I know which is the dry cut method.

 

I'm sorry not to have shared this before now.  I compartmentalized it.  But after reading your post this morning...it made sense.

 

My mama I started an AD luvox and only took it for 2 weeks as it sent me into a bad wave. It gave me symptoms I havn't experienced throughout my whole taper. I've been waking up with really bad heart palpitations in the morning and thoughts that make me want to not get me out of bed. Valium withdrawal has caused anxiety and depression but nothing to this extreme. It's been a week since I stopped the AD and I've only had marginal improvement. Lesson learned. Do not take any other psych drugs while this is going on. Really wish I didn't start it as I'm now confused as to what's going on.

[[my...]]

Hi Shamo,

Just saw your post....hard to believe, right?  I'm still suffering the ear pain and pressure...my most feared and hated w/d sx! I stopped taking Zoloft after 3 days. I think last Weds was my last day.  Today is Sunday...still having ear pain!!!  It was absolutely the Zoloft that started the ear sxs again because they began in mild way before I changed my taper method...then I compounded and confused the problem by trying to switch to a liquid taper, while keeping the same dose as before.  I've gone back to dry cut and will begin a MT using pills once I stabilize.. Atually I had thought I HAD stabilized earlier today but the sxs returned in the late morning after a phone call.

 

Oh..and did I mention that the ear pain/pressure was a symptom of many months ago but had receded to the point where I really believed it was a thing of the past.  Hmmmm....

 

It may be that the Zoloft would not have caused this issue IF I had not been tapering.  But our CNS is so highly sensitized and excitable during our taper that any stressor or chemical change (I'm guessing about the latter) is amplified and brings on symptoms -- whichever ones are yours to bear.

 

Ah me....we will get through this.  NO permanent damage has been done.  It's a temporary - though really uncomfortable - problem. I want to encourage you to take very good care of yourself.  Do whatever it takes to calm your fragile nervous system.  Eat well, sleep if you can, or rest...gentle exercise - like getting outside...distract with music or whatever brings you pleasure.  I find that phone conversations bring on symptoms - even if they are relatively peasant.  But that could just be b/c my issue are hearing/ear related.  Still, pay attention to what stresses you and try to avoid it...if just for the evening or for a few hours...and see if that doesn't decrease your sxs.  Then once you figure out what helps you -- do more of it!  And less of what doesn't help.  Even staying on the BB site for too long can bring on sxs or prolong them so be aware of what your triggers are.

 

Wishing you healing and hope...we will be fine. 

[[Sh...]]

Yep! It is so frustrating when you think you know what's going on but you aren't quite sure. I'm fairly certain the AD started this latest issue, it's the only thing I'd done differently. I've been holding for about 2-3 weeks waiting for the symptoms to go back to what they were but I'm starting to think this might not happen for a long time. So I might continue a daily taper soon and just hope they go away soon. I'm not too far away...1.5mg V left.

[[St...]]

ok, one more question, I take six equal doses of Ativan LT, 9.93 and have been holding for over a month again, I am noticing something, I have lots of withdrawal sxs all day long, and then at 10;00 I take my Ambien 6.3 and I start to feel better, I lose some sxs.  I know Ambien is a Zdrug and benzo like, but talked to someone on here and he said it hits a different part of the receptor than Ativan does.  Anyway, it makes some of my sxs go down and I think clearer....what I am wondering is, is this a pretty good indication that I might do well with an updose, it has been suggested to help me try to stabilize more, which I am not doing very well at since starting the LT 2 months ago.  I have so much interdose problem even after going to six doses, so hard to tell if I am stable or not, but most nights after the Ambien, I feel so much better.  Makes me think I have too little benzo going on, and it is giving me a lot of withdrawal pain.  Thoughts?

 

[[Va...]]

ok, one more question, I take six equal doses of Ativan LT, 9.93 and have been holding for over a month again, I am noticing something, I have lots of withdrawal sxs all day long, and then at 10;00 I take my Ambien 6.3 and I start to feel better, I lose some sxs.  I know Ambien is a Zdrug and benzo like, but talked to someone on here and he said it hits a different part of the receptor than Ativan does.  Anyway, it makes some of my sxs go down and I think clearer....what I am wondering is, is this a pretty good indication that I might do well with an updose, it has been suggested to help me try to stabilize more, which I am not doing very well at since starting the LT 2 months ago.  I have so much interdose problem even after going to six doses, so hard to tell if I am stable or not, but most nights after the Ambien, I feel so much better.  Makes me think I have too little benzo going on, and it is giving me a lot of withdrawal pain.  Thoughts?

I would say yes. Z drugs act like benzos. The withdrawals are pretty much the same from a Z drug.

[[St...]]

Thanks V.....so if I would do an updose, how much would I do?  The Ambien is 6.3mg , how would that compare to an equal dose of Ativan?  Do you know? Or could someone help me, SG or Builder?  I feel so much better after that dose it is remarkable, before that , I am a shaking nauseated headachey confused mess all day long, crying....after, clear headed, able to think, breathing is better, no shaking hungry, no headache....so I guess I need help with how much to go up, this gives me more hope for being able to stabilize....holding at the same dose I am now has done nothing....thanks so much to anyone who can help.....

[[Va...]]

Thanks V.....so if I would do an updose, how much would I do?  The Ambien is 6.3mg , how would that compare to an equal dose of Ativan?  Do you know? Or could someone help me, SG or Builder?  I feel so much better after that dose it is remarkable, before that , I am a shaking nauseated headachey confused mess all day long, crying....after, clear headed, able to think, breathing is better, no shaking hungry, no headache....so I guess I need help with how much to go up, this gives me more hope for being able to stabilize....holding at the same dose I am now has done nothing....thanks so much to anyone who can help.....

From what I can tell from the Ashton manual is that 6.3mg of zolpidem would be equivalent to .3mg of Ativan. Hopefully someone can double check this.

[[St...]]

thank you v, it seems so weird that this would work, I was put on the z drug at the exact same time as Ativan, so the two have been there right along....but the z drug is not included in my total dose of a for the day...I am at 59.7 right now a day of Ativan, If I updosed to .60 do you think that would do the trick?  I know, no guarantees....not asking that of you...lol, I am not good at Math at all, so need all the help I can get, but wow, that would be so cool if I could finally start to feel better, this has been a long dark stretch I have been in....

[[...]]

Thanks V.....so if I would do an updose, how much would I do?  The Ambien is 6.3mg , how would that compare to an equal dose of Ativan?  Do you know? Or could someone help me, SG or Builder?  I feel so much better after that dose it is remarkable, before that , I am a shaking nauseated headachey confused mess all day long, crying....after, clear headed, able to think, breathing is better, no shaking hungry, no headache....so I guess I need help with how much to go up, this gives me more hope for being able to stabilize....holding at the same dose I am now has done nothing....thanks so much to anyone who can help.....

From what I can tell from the Ashton manual is that 6.3mg of zolpidem would be equivalent to .3mg of Ativan. Hopefully someone can double check this.

 

I agree with Valley Um that it sounds like an updose might help.  Ashton puts A at 20x Ambien so 6.3mg would be .315mg A.  I think it is worth a shot.

[[an...]]

thank you v, it seems so weird that this would work, I was put on the z drug at the exact same time as Ativan, so the two have been there right along....but the z drug is not included in my total dose of a for the day...I am at 59.7 right now a day of Ativan, If I updosed to .60 do you think that would do the trick?  I know, no guarantees....not asking that of you...lol, I am not good at Math at all, so need all the help I can get, but wow, that would be so cool if I could finally start to feel better, this has been a long dark stretch I have been in....

 

Stella,

 

It sounds like an updose might help.  You started with 0.60 mg/day, so maybe updose a little more?  With Ativan it would be easier to test because of the short half life.  Maybe try 1 mg and see how you feel.  If an updose works, you should feel a difference right away.  You could then adjust down to determine the lowest dose that would stabilize you. 

 

Anne

[[St...]]

what does the .315 and  59.7 add up to?  Man, I really hate to go up to 1 mg.  Do you usually have to updose so much? Is It wrong to do it the other way, start smaller and updose up if I need to?

[[St...]]

I'm thinking of going to .75.  Sound ok?  If I stabilize at .75, do I hold there for awhile? 

 

[[...]]

what does the .315 and  59.7 add up to?  Man, I really hate to go up to 1 mg.  Do you usually have to updose so much? Is It wrong to do it the other way, start smaller and updose up if I need to?

 

I'm thinking of going to .75.  Sound ok?

 

 

You dose is .6mg Ativan plus .315mg Ativan from the Ambien, so really your total dose is .915mg Ativan.  It might be good to get rid of the Ambien and replace it with Ativan.  The half life is awfully short.  That alone might be enough to help and no updose would be needed.