Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[...]]

SG i am so sorry to bother you again..but i need help i am desperate..i updosed back on march 18th to the 1.93 mgs from the 1.75 mgs to help me pull out of the problems i was having..and now i have not been able to swallow right and from looking at the date it started at almost the same time..could it have been the updose?? could it have back fired on me?? I am down to just broth and pudding..everything else seems to be getting stuck in my throat..not choking  but stuck like a lump..and i have had 2 barium swallows done and nothing so i am starving and getting weaker..

 

some have told me to updose again  to see if that might help..i dont care at this point what i have to do...but i have not cut since i updosed and i am so sick

 

and if i updosed from 1.93mgs to 2mgs would that even be enough for my body to notice at this point..i feel like i am back sliding but i gotta eat.

 

and advice would be greatly appreciated..

 

thanks

 

deep

 

I would not expect an updose to cause more problems, but I don't know that it is not possible.  You went up 10% and have held for 34 days...I have to think that was a good action to take and that it is helping, but is just not enough.

 

From what I got out of Perseverance's research, there may be two types of benzo damage.  Type 1 is what we all have - kind of an out of whack GABA/glutamate system that requires the benzo to run normally - not enough GABA receptors, not enough GABA influence, too much glutamate influence.  The brain/CNS has redesigned itself around the benzo.  This is not a problem as long as we have enough benzo, and symptoms from Type 1 damage can be made to go away by reinstating the right dose.

 

But the second type of damage - I call it Type 2 - seems nasty and long-lasting.  The way I understand it - and this is just a theory of some researchers - Type 2 happens when we are too short of benzo for too long.  In other words, tapering too fast and not correcting it in time (trying to fight through it) causes additional damage.  I don't fully understand what happens, but it is not good and ends up with a longer term problem in the glutamate system.  It eventually will go away, but it has staying power and does not respond well to reinstatement.

 

In trying to understand what is going on with you, my thought is you have some Type 2 damage - you have not responded to a 10% updose or a month of waiting.  I'm not sure if hitting it really hard with a big updose would help: it might, we just don't know.  But it will eventually go away, it's just a very stubborn form of damage.  Again, this is all just the best sense I can make from what I've gathered and it is not known facts.  If you think your docs will listen, there are some great write-ups on all this by Perseverance here on BB.

[[de...]]

SG you are incredibly smart and have so much knowledge with this..

 

and since you dont think an updose would help...how about a cut??? cause I know that Maya felt better when she did a cut..and i know you say it will pass..and i hated that i did updose..

 

so in your opinion of what you know would starting a c pattern for a time to see what happens be a good thing to do something since holding and the updose didnt help?

 

my docs are on board as far as helping me with the scripts and my health as normal people have but as far as having the time to research this or learn this they just dont have it..and they are not benzo wise they just tell me to get my help here and do my best they are there for me in that manner

 

thanks

 

deep

[[...]]

SG you are incredibly smart and have so much knowledge with this..

 

and since you dont think an updose would help...how about a cut??? cause I know that Maya felt better when she did a cut..and i know you say it will pass..and i hated that i did updose..

 

so in your opinion of what you know would starting a c pattern for a time to see what happens be a good thing to do something since holding and the updose didnt help?

 

my docs are on board as far as helping me with the scripts and my health as normal people have but as far as having the time to research this or learn this they just dont have it..and they are not benzo wise they just tell me to get my help here and do my best they are there for me in that manner

 

thanks

 

deep

 

I don't understand why some people say they feel better when they cut.  That one is puzzling.  It does seem to happen for sure.  But I have to stick with what makes sense to me or everything will get confused.

 

I think cutting is okay as long as symptoms do not increase.  If you can remove benzo and not feel any worse it seems logical that your body is keeping up.  And I think it is possible to do both - cut and improve - at the same time as long as you cut less than you heal, although improvement might take longer this way.  But in your case I would not do any cutting.  Your symptoms sound too severe.  You need all your healing capacity to go towards existing symptoms.  I think the best thing for you to do is sit and wait for as long as it takes.  Or you could try another healthy-sized updose and hope for quicker relief.  I have no idea what it takes to get Type 2 damage to respond to a dose increase...or even if it will respond at all.  But time seems to be a sure answer.

[[de...]]

SG this is all so confusing and so many unanswered questions..but i think for now i will just have to stay where i am..i am getting to weak to fight anything else coming up either from a cut or an updose that might not work..

 

I am so thankful for all the knowledge that you have and just trust that this to will pass..and i will just have to juice whatever i can get down and hope for the best

 

thanks so much for all the time and effort you put into helping others

 

deep

[[pe...]]

. I'll give this a go and report back!  Thanks so much 

 

Oops...last question  ...in looking at all my "equipment", I noticed that the syringe has two black marks on the plunger - I assume to easily mark 1/2 of the .10ml marks (or whatever  )...so does one measure from the top black mark, closest to the tip or the bottom one, close to the other end?...can you tell I never took Chemistry??  How did I graduate college???    Or high school for that matter???

 

Thanks guys,

M

 

Push the plunger all the way to the bottom and note what part of the plunger lines up with 0.  That is the point you measure from.

 

 

Why is there two black markers on the plunger - what about the liquid in the tip surely that comes into it

[[pe...]]

Pharma Grade or Food grade PG in the UK i can't find food grade on line.

 

Builder my tablet of ativan eventually dissolved in the alcohol it took about 5 hours...

Why so long?

[[ga...]]

. I'll give this a go and report back!  Thanks so much 

 

Oops...last question  ...in looking at all my "equipment", I noticed that the syringe has two black marks on the plunger - I assume to easily mark 1/2 of the .10ml marks (or whatever  )...so does one measure from the top black mark, closest to the tip or the bottom one, close to the other end?...can you tell I never took Chemistry??  How did I graduate college???    Or high school for that matter???

 

Thanks guys,

M

 

Push the plunger all the way to the bottom and note what part of the plunger lines up with 0.  That is the point you measure from.

 

 

Why is there two black markers on the plunger - what about the liquid in the tip surely that comes into it

 

The liquid leftover in the tip is not considered part of the dose. I just leave it there. Though not forever. I clean out my syringe once a week and lose the little bit in the tip.

 

I looked on youtube for how to use a syringe and found the how-to videos helpful. Showed how to get rid of air bubbles and stuff like that.

 

Gard

[[bu...]]

Pharma Grade or Food grade PG in the UK i can't find food grade on line.

 

Builder my tablet of ativan eventually dissolved in the alcohol it took about 5 hours...

Why so long?

  One more time...about 99% of your tablet is inactive ingredients, some of which will be poorly soluble, or insoluble.  It may have taken 5 hours for some of these excipients to dissolve, but it really didn't take very long for the ativan to dissolve.

[[bu...]]

 

 

 

Why is there two black markers on the plunger - what about the liquid in the tip surely that comes into it

 

Pete, I fully understand that folks are frightened about starting a taper protocol, especially if it involves equipemt and process that they are unfamiliar with.

 

But...none of that matters!!  There are only 2 things that are important  doing a daily liquid taper:

 

1)  Convert your benzo to a liquid using a proper solvent

 

2) Use a consistent procedure to take a little less each day.

 

If you stop the plunger on the same mark each day, that's all you need to do.  You can leave the liquid in the tip, or you can expel it by repeatedly pulling up and expelling plain water (which is what I did).  But as long as you do the same thing each time, it really doesn't matter what you actually.

[[pe...]]

I understand but i want to know why there is two markers on the plunger?

[[bu...]]

I understand but i want to know why there is two markers on the plunger?

 

There really aren't.  The "marker" that is at the bottom end is what actually indicates the volume beneath it.  But many syringes have 2 "rings" on the plunger.  The rings (that area of greatest diameter) is what actually creates the vacuum in the syringe, and causes the liquid to flow up and fill the space.  In sort, 2 rings can provide provide a more effective, reliable seal between the plunger and the barrel.

 

No matter how the plunger is constructed, the volume of liquid pulled in will always exactly match the distance that the plunger is retracted.

[[Va...]]

I understand but i want to know why there is two markers on the plunger?

Use the one that lines up with zero if that makes it easier.

[[bu...]]

The area under the bottom of the plunger determines the volume that is pulled in.  If you start with the plunger fully extended, and pull it back so the bottom of the plunger is at .5 (1ml syringe) then it will pull in .5ml.  Its the length of travel that is the controlling variable.

[[ga...]]

Regarding the great plunger quandary, there are different brands of syringes, so it's impossible to know exactly what you mean without seeing a picture of the actual syringe.

 

At any rate, what V and builder say is correct. The mark that lines up with the zero when the plunger is pushed all the way to empty is the mark typically used. But, what matters is using the same mark every time.

 

 

[[my...]]

Morning,

 

I tried.  Wish I had better news.  Granted, I didn't use the PG as it was on order until yesterday afternoon but for the 3 doses on Tuesday and 2 yesterday, I tried the liquid, shaking the vodka solution well, measuring carefully using the same amount of K in the same number of doses each time.  But.....

 

I felt as though I had gone CT.  Never since the early months of my taper did I have ear pain and pressure like that.  I feel bad as you, SG, especially, gave me such careful and encouraging advice and support.

 

But last night I returned to pill cutting/weighing.  Same this morning. 

 

I plan to remain at my current dose of .39mg until stable and then either return to C/H or do a dry cut MT.  The scale may not be perfect but for the most part I have done alright...many days feeling fine.  Really fine.  Even though things may have and probably would have smoothed out if I had given the LT more time, it was just too painful!  Really, the ear sxs had subsided - even during the the days after a cut (5%) - by this point in my taper where I began to think they were a thing of the past.  For the past several months my only sxs during the harder days of a cut were increased muscle tension and chest pressure.....nothing compared to the ear pain.  A walk in the park in comparison.

 

So...maybe I'm one of those people who just can't do a LT.  We'll see about a MT using the scale once I return to a baseline that feels OK.

 

I continue to appreciate your ongoing support.... 

 

Mana. 

[[...]]

Morning,

 

I tried.  Wish I had better news.  Granted, I didn't use the PG as it was on order until yesterday afternoon but for the 3 doses on Tuesday and 2 yesterday, I tried the liquid, shaking the vodka solution well, measuring carefully using the same amount of K in the same number of doses each time.  But.....

 

I felt as though I had gone CT.  Never since the early months of my taper did I have ear pain and pressure like that.  I feel bad as you, SG, especially, gave me such careful and encouraging advice and support.

 

But last night I returned to pill cutting/weighing.  Same this morning. 

 

I plan to remain at my current dose of .39mg until stable and then either return to C/H or do a dry cut MT.  The scale may not be perfect but for the most part I have done alright...many days feeling fine.  Really fine.  Even though things may have and probably would have smoothed out if I had given the LT more time, it was just too painful!  Really, the ear sxs had subsided - even during the the days after a cut (5%) - by this point in my taper where I began to think they were a thing of the past.  For the past several months my only sxs during the harder days of a cut were increased muscle tension and chest pressure.....nothing compared to the ear pain.  A walk in the park in comparison.

 

So...maybe I'm one of those people who just can't do a LT.  We'll see about a MT using the scale once I return to a baseline that feels OK.

 

I continue to appreciate your ongoing support.... 

 

Mana. 

 

Man, I wish we could get to the bottom of what causes symptoms when the switch to liquid is made.  There is no way I believe that you can't use liquid, but somehow you did not get the same dose.

[[Kg...]]

SG I had the same reaction as Mana and I tried the liquid for a much longer time. It always felt like a drastic cut to me and I never did adjust to it. I have no idea why this is, it makes no sense I agree, but we just need to go with how our bodies react to things. I wish I could use the liquid as I believe it is much more accurate than using the scale but we all do what we have to do to get off. 

[[jr...]]

Morning,

 

I tried.  Wish I had better news.  Granted, I didn't use the PG as it was on order until yesterday afternoon but for the 3 doses on Tuesday and 2 yesterday, I tried the liquid, shaking the vodka solution well, measuring carefully using the same amount of K in the same number of doses each time.  But.....

 

I felt as though I had gone CT.  Never since the early months of my taper did I have ear pain and pressure like that.  I feel bad as you, SG, especially, gave me such careful and encouraging advice and support.

 

But last night I returned to pill cutting/weighing.  Same this morning. 

 

I plan to remain at my current dose of .39mg until stable and then either return to C/H or do a dry cut MT.  The scale may not be perfect but for the most part I have done alright...many days feeling fine.  Really fine.  Even though things may have and probably would have smoothed out if I had given the LT more time, it was just too painful!  Really, the ear sxs had subsided - even during the the days after a cut (5%) - by this point in my taper where I began to think they were a thing of the past.  For the past several months my only sxs during the harder days of a cut were increased muscle tension and chest pressure.....nothing compared to the ear pain.  A walk in the park in comparison.

 

So...maybe I'm one of those people who just can't do a LT.  We'll see about a MT using the scale once I return to a baseline that feels OK.

 

I continue to appreciate your ongoing support.... 

 

Mana. 

 

Man, I wish we could get to the bottom of what causes symptoms when the switch to liquid is made.  There is no way I believe that you can't use liquid, but somehow you did not get the same dose.

 

I think it may be a good idea to updose slightly when starting a LT. I did and really had no problems going to LT. I dont know why there is a problem. I know for me that it was hard to trust the liquid at first but once I got going , me anxiety lessened about the doses.

[[...]]

SG I had the same reaction as Mana and I tried the liquid for a much longer time. It always felt like a drastic cut to me and I never did adjust to it. I have no idea why this is, it makes no sense I agree, but we just need to go with how our bodies react to things. I wish I could use the liquid as I believe it is much more accurate than using the scale but we all do what we have to do to get off.

 

It's very common and sometimes seems severe.  I just don't get it.  The weird thing with Mana is her symptom lag time is ~6 days.  Yet she reacted to the switch within a day, I believe.  The first thing that happens to a pill when you swallow it is it turns to liquid, so what is so different?

[[...]]

Man, I wish we could get to the bottom of what causes symptoms when the switch to liquid is made.  There is no way I believe that you can't use liquid, but somehow you did not get the same dose.

I think it may be a good idea to updose slightly when starting a LT. I did and really had no problems going to LT. I dont know why there is a problem. I know for me that it was hard to trust the liquid at first but once I got going , me anxiety lessened about the doses.

 

Yeah, it's almost to the point where a dose correction is needed.

[[my...]]

I know! It makes no sense.  And I was NOT anxious about switching and even did use a little more than the .39/day over the 1 1/2 day period. I felt confident and happy until the sxs hit.... . Just cannot take the ear pain.

 

Thanks for the responses... 

 

And SG, you are right...I usually am a number of days in before the sxs hit and even so, the ear stuff has not been an issue for months now.  (I would call it tinnitus but it's more like pain and pressure and sensitivity to noise than internal ringing or whooshing...but no question it is the nerves that control/affect hearing that go haywire...the weird thing is that I have never, in my life, had any ear issues, not even an ear infection as a child...until this lovely taper experience.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[...]]

I know! It makes no sense.  And I was NOT anxious about switching and even did use a little more than the .39/day over the 1 1/2 day period. I felt confident and happy until the sxs hit.... . Just cannot take the ear pain.

 

Thanks for the responses... 

 

And SG, you are right...I usually am a number of days in before the sxs hit and even so, the ear stuff has not been an issue for months now.  (I would call it tinnitus but it's more like pain and pressure and sensitivity to noise than internal ringing or whooshing...but no question it is the nerves that control/affect hearing that go haywire...the weird thing is that I have never, in my life, had any ear issues, not even an ear infection as a child...until this lovely taper experience.)

 

It's just too weird.  If you didn't switch at all you would be fine.  If you had cut 10% you would be fine.  But if you put the same dose in liquid you're a mess.  Too weird.  It is as if the cut were bigger than 10%, but even then, how is it that symptoms hit so soon?  The placebo effect seems to be out.

[[de...]]

couldnt get on last night my ear went pop like if your were going up a mountain and i couldnt get it to open back up..then i got pains down in it..so today i went to my doc and he said i have a ear infection well the nurse practioner did..so she prescribed

 

 

neomycin and polymycin B sulfates and hydrocortisone otic suspension USP

 

i read all the ingredients and i thought i had read that we shouldnt use anything with prednisone in it which is a corticosteroid..

 

it also says that the drops can cause dizziness which i already am kinda unbalanced from the ear doing this all of a sudden

 

i am confused cause just stopped a 10 day round of amoxicillin 4 days ago..so not sure how i got a ear infection...

 

i have also had a headache for 3 days and the eye is real bad today and when i put the drops in my left eye today it made the left temple of my head feel strange and not sure why they are just drops for dry eyes..

 

so could the nurse practioner be wrong and its not even an ear infection altho my ear feels strange and hurt when she put the thing in it to look in my ear??

 

thanks will wait to start the drops til i hear back about the med..cause most people take an antibiotic by mouth not drops in their ears when they already have balance problems//

[[my...]]

SG,

Yes...too weird exactly.  Here's what I plan to do.  First of all, recover.  Ears still sketchy and I'm a bit skittish about doing anything now but holding, using dry cut pills.  Once I stabilize, I plan to begin a MT, using the pills.  They may not be as accurate as the liquid but it's what I'm used to.  I will go slowly and let my symptoms (or hopefully lack of same) guide me.

 

My doctor (pdoc/neurologist) and I just spoke and she was actually the one who endorsed the MT idea when I mentioned it to get me the rest of the way.  She's amazing...very flexible and thoughtful.  I'm lucky to have her in my corner.  As I am you!! 

 

I remember your rate of reduction to equal 15% a month.  I believe it was C/C/H.  I won't begin until I feel really well.  Then go accordingly.  We have a vacation coming up in two weeks so I will absolutely hold during that period and maybe only try to reduce a little toward the middle of next week just to see how I feel.

 

Regarding perspective...this is all a scientific experiment.  I now look at these various attempts to complete my taper as trial and error and a necessary part of the process rather than feeling like I had this huge setback. 

 

 

 

 

[[...]]

SG,

Yes...too weird exactly.  Here's what I plan to do.  First of all, recover.  Ears still sketchy and I'm a bit skittish about doing anything now but holding, using dry cut pills.  Once I stabilize, I plan to begin a MT, using the pills.  They may not be as accurate as the liquid but it's what I'm used to.  I will go slowly and let my symptoms (or hopefully lack of same) guide me.

 

My doctor (pdoc/neurologist) and I just spoke and she was actually the one who endorsed the MT idea when I mentioned it to get me the rest of the way.  She's amazing...very flexible and thoughtful.  I'm lucky to have her in my corner.  As I am you!! 

 

I remember your rate of reduction to equal 15% a month.  I believe it was C/C/H.  I won't begin until I feel really well.  Then go accordingly.  We have a vacation coming up in two weeks so I will absolutely hold during that period and maybe only try to reduce a little toward the middle of next week just to see how I feel.

 

Regarding perspective...this is all a scientific experiment.  I now look at these various attempts to complete my taper as trial and error and a necessary part of the process rather than feeling like I had this huge setback. 

 

Yes, c/c/h is ~.002mg a day.  I'm at a loss to explain what happened.  You have the right attitude for this - it will go well and you'll succeed.