Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[jr...]]

Hey everyone,

 

Just a question : I'm on 3.30 mg Diazepam for the moment. I'm tapering 5 pr on 14d .. so i'm going by the rate 3.29  3.27 3.26... I'll be on 3.25 mg in a few days. My question : once i'm on 3.25 mg should i stay on this amount for a few days or just go right ahaid with the daily taper ? For now my sxs are : headache, nausea ( but able to eat) muscle pain deep breathing (muscle pain are from the breathing my ribs my shoulderblades) I'm able to function reasonably good : doing some homework not lots (low energy), taking walks with my dog.. driving kids to school, do some grocery shopping (mostly not alone). So what's the best to do :stay on 3.25 for a day or 4 and then go ahaid or just move on ? Thanks for reading and answering !

Grtz x Sh 

 

Do not be afraid to hold anytime during your taper. do it before the sxs get overwhelming. your body tells you when to hold so pay close attention. we can taper from these drugs with the minimum sxs if we will go slow.

[[Sh...]]

Okay thanks everyone ! I had a real good day yesterday ... could do lots of things even my dancing again (not lots but it felt great to do what i love the most) i feel sth every day but i guess that's part of the deal for me..most of the time it's manageable..  for now i can function and do things what i couldn't do anymore tapering to fast 25 proc in 7d (real horror).  So i'll see how it goes till wednessday and as long i'm not going bad i continue then..? Thanks for the replies ! Appreciate it very much ! 

[[Mo...]]

 

 

I think as long as symptoms do not increase you can keep going.

 

:thumbsup:

 

[[Sh...]]

Thanks Moo ! Miss ya ! Knuffel x Sh 

[[my...]]

Hi SG,

Well, our plans have changed and we're not leaving town so we can think about beginning the micro L/T as soon as the syringes arrive which should be Weds -- so Thursday I guess.

 

Here's my question.  (Let me know if I should post this on the LT thread instead)  At my current dose of .39 mg K, I plan to switch to a LT and stay on it for a week or two to stabilize using a different method then begin at - as you suggested - 10% a month with an increase to 15% if that seems really easy.  BTW, I have stabilized on this dose after a pretty rocky first week.

 

So, to prepare my first 60 ml bottle of liquid, how much K do I crush for a 20 day supply?  I am using the "Crash" method of 1 ml of vodka per 1 mg of meds.  But how to do that for a 20 day supply?  20 x .39 = 7.8??  or do I figure it at some other amount, assuming a decrease of x mg/ml? per day??  And once you tell me how much K to crush in the bottle, how do I dose every day?  How much do I pull out in the syringe?  Is it done all at once for the day, or three times a day.  Lots of questions, I know...but I'm going to do this!!!!! 

 

Tell me like I'm a five year old...... Oh, and I dose three times a day usually in equal doses if possible.  For example, this cut it has been .045g, .044g,.045g.  I'll be SO glad to be done with the scale!!!!!

 

Thanks for all, as always,

 

Mana 

[[...]]

Hi SG,

Well, our plans have changed and we're not leaving town so we can think about beginning the micro L/T as soon as the syringes arrive which should be Weds -- so Thursday I guess.

 

Here's my question.  (Let me know if I should post this on the LT thread instead)  At my current dose of .39 mg K, I plan to switch to a LT and stay on it for a week or two to stabilize using a different method then begin at - as you suggested - 10% a month with an increase to 15% if that seems really easy.  BTW, I have stabilized on this dose after a pretty rocky first week.

 

So, to prepare my first 60 ml bottle of liquid, how much K do I crush for a 20 day supply?  I am using the "Crash" method of 1 ml of vodka per 1 mg of meds.  But how to do that for a 20 day supply?  20 x .39 = 7.8??  or do I figure it at some other amount, assuming a decrease of x mg/ml? per day??  And once you tell me how much K to crush in the bottle, how do I dose every day?  How much do I pull out in the syringe?  Is it done all at once for the day, or three times a day.  Lots of questions, I know...but I'm going to do this!!!!! 

 

Tell me like I'm a five year old...... Oh, and I dose three times a day usually in equal doses if possible.  For example, this cut it has been .045g, .044g,.045g.  I'll be SO glad to be done with the scale!!!!!

 

Thanks for all, as always,

 

Mana 

 

The way I would do it is to put .5mg into 50ml liquid.  I'd dissolve with either PG or alcohol, or use milk.  I'm not comfortable with long-term storage in liquid or high concentrations, so I don't do them.  1ml 80 proof vodka is not enough to dissolve 1mg K.

[[my...]]

Sorry, but    .5 mg K is just a little more than one day's worth for me.  What do I do with it?  How do I measure out .39 mg?  How do I divide that in three doses? And after that, how do I taper on a daily basis?  I can see how people get confused with LT and give up.  For sure I want to micro taper and I had thought a liquid taper would be smoother but not if I don't understand it...It seems like Crash had good luck with the LT and swore by his 20 day supply plan.

 

Sorry for all the questions!

 

I received my syringes today and am basically ready to begin the change to a L/MT. 

[[an...]]

If you have 0.5 mg in 50 mL that is 0.5mg/50 mL = 0.01 mg/mL.  There is 0.01 mg in each 1 mL. 

 

0.39 mg is 39 mL. If you are on three doses a day, you would measure out 39 mL /3 = 13 mL per dose.

 

Hope this helps,

Anne 

[[...]]

Sorry, but    .5 mg K is just a little more than one day's worth for me.  What do I do with it?  How do I measure out .39 mg?  How do I divide that in three doses? And after that, how do I taper on a daily basis?  I can see how people get confused with LT and give up.  For sure I want to micro taper and I had thought a liquid taper would be smoother but not if I don't understand it...It seems like Crash had good luck with the LT and swore by his 20 day supply plan.

 

Sorry for all the questions!

 

I received my syringes today and am basically ready to begin the change to a L/MT.

 

I think you're making it harder than it is.  As Anne said, each ml is .01mg K.  10ml would be .1mg.  Your .39mg dose would be 39ml.  If you make .5mg worth and you need some lesser amount you can keep the extra for the next day or throw it away.  Dividing is the easy part: just split it three ways.  To taper, just dose a little less each day...39ml, 38.9ml, 38.8ml.  If you want to do a long-term batch that's up to you, but I am not all that comfortable with them so I don't encourage them.

[[bu...]]

If you have 0.5 mg in 50 mL that is 0.5mg/50 mL = 0.01 mg/mL.  There is 0.01 mg in each 1 mL. 

 

0.39 mg is 39 mL. If you are on three doses a day, you would measure out 39 mL /3 = 13 mL per dose.

 

Hope this helps,

Anne

 

:thumbsup:

 

Well, that's saves me from some typing!

[[bu...]]

 

 

I think you're making it harder than it is.  As Anne said, each ml is .01mg K.  10ml would be .1mg.  Your .39mg dose would be 39ml.  If you make .5mg worth and you need some lesser amount you can keep the extra for the next day or throw it away.  Dividing is the easy part: just split it three ways.  To taper, just dose a little less each day...39ml, 38.9ml, 38.8ml.  If you want to do a long-term batch that's up to you, but I am not all that comfortable with them so I don't encourage them.

  Not being argumentative, but if you make a mixture of PG, benzo, and water, or a mix of alcohol, benzo, and water, it's 1) a stable solution with 3 very stable ingredients, and 2) there are no perishable ingredients.

 

IMO, the only threat to you liquid is possible microbial growth is you do no keep your equipment clean. I made 10-14 day batches all during my 2 years micro taper.  There were a couple of times toward the end of a batch, it would get a little cloudy (but that apparently did not effect the function as I used it anyway with no problem.)

[[...]]

 

 

I think you're making it harder than it is.  As Anne said, each ml is .01mg K.  10ml would be .1mg.  Your .39mg dose would be 39ml.  If you make .5mg worth and you need some lesser amount you can keep the extra for the next day or throw it away.  Dividing is the easy part: just split it three ways.  To taper, just dose a little less each day...39ml, 38.9ml, 38.8ml.  If you want to do a long-term batch that's up to you, but I am not all that comfortable with them so I don't encourage them.

  Not being argumentative, but if you make a mixture of PG, benzo, and water, or a mix of alcohol, benzo, and water, it's 1) a stable solution with 3 very stable ingredients, and 2) there are no perishable ingredients.

 

IMO, the only threat to you liquid is possible microbial growth is you do no keep your equipment clean. I made 10-14 day batches all during my 2 years micro taper.  There were a couple of times toward the end of a batch, it would get a little cloudy (but that apparently did not effect the function as I used it anyway with no problem.)

 

Yeah, bacteria is a concern as time goes on too.  With home mixes, I don't know there is a problem with stability - it may be fine.  And I don't see any glaring problems - I'm just not comfortable with long-term storage in liquids.  When you mix things together like that in water it strikes me as an encouraging environment where reactions can happen to the benzo as time wears on - lesser effects have time to become larger.  Are there slowly evolving reactions occurring?  We pay no attention to pH.  Is that important?  I have no idea.  I'm not a chemist and chemistry has always been a black art to me.  My apprehension is more of an instinct than based on any known problem.  Then again, seeing enough anecdotal reports of two-, three-, and four-week batches working fine tends to serve as bottom-line proof that it is okay and that may eventually warm me to the idea.  But right now I'm not at that point.  Call me too cautious.  I probably am.

[[my...]]

Builder and SG,

This is really interesting and I'm happy to read an exchange between two very smart people wh also care about others....this characterizes what is so special about BB....the best of the best, IMO.

 

So let's compromise on, say, a 10-14 rather than a 20 day supply.

 

How do I start from .39? Do I first multiply by the number of days, as I had first thought and Crash suggested?  And then....what? As I asked on the LT thread, I'm not clear how to convert a ml/mg decrease to a percentage on the syringe.  And if I'm not mixing the exact amount I need to take for a day or a week or two....how does THAT work?

 

Once I am able to wrap my head around this, I know it will be easy...but I need to visualize the process and at this point can't do!!

Thanks, guys!!

 

[[...]]

Builder and SG,

This is really interesting and I'm happy to read an exchange between two very smart people wh also care about others....this characterizes what is so special about BB....the best of the best, IMO.

 

So let's compromise on, say, a 10-14 rather than a 20 day supply.

 

How do I start from .39? Do I first multiply by the number of days, as I had first thought and Crash suggested?  And then....what? As I asked on the LT thread, I'm not clear how to convert a ml/mg decrease to a percentage on the syringe.  And if I'm not mixing the exact amount I need to take for a day or a week or two....how does THAT work?

 

Once I am able to wrap my head around this, I know it will be easy...but I need to visualize the process and at this point can't do!!

Thanks, guys!!

 

Here's what I might do for a 10-day supply.  Round to .4mg x 10 = 4mg.

 

Put eight .5mg pills (4mg) into 4ml PG.  Let it dissolve.  Mix.  Add 396ml water.  Mix.  You now have 400ml of .01mg/ml liquid K.  Each ml is .01mg.  39ml is .39mg.  400ml is 4mg and is enough to last 10 days.  If you dose 3x draw out 39ml and split it evenly three ways by lining the jars up on the counter and eyeballing even, or you could use syringes and pull out 13ml per dose.

[[bu...]]

Builder and SG,

This is really interesting and I'm happy to read an exchange between two very smart people wh also care about others....this characterizes what is so special about BB....the best of the best, IMO.

 

So let's compromise on, say, a 10-14 rather than a 20 day supply.

 

How do I start from .39? Do I first multiply by the number of days, as I had first thought and Crash suggested?  And then....what? As I asked on the LT thread, I'm not clear how to convert a ml/mg decrease to a percentage on the syringe.  And if I'm not mixing the exact amount I need to take for a day or a week or two....how does THAT work?

 

Once I am able to wrap my head around this, I know it will be easy...but I need to visualize the process and at this point can't do!!

Thanks, guys!!

 

Here's what I might do for a 10-day supply.  Round to .4mg x 10 = 4mg.

 

Put eight .5mg pills (4mg) into 4ml PG.  Let it dissolve.  Mix.  Add 396ml water.  Mix.  You now have 400ml of .01mg/ml liquid K.  Each ml is .01mg.  39ml is .39mg.  400ml is 4mg and is enough to last 10 days.  If you dose 3x draw out 39ml and split it evenly three ways by lining the jars up on the counter and eyeballing even, or you could use syringes and pull out 13ml per dose.

  Looks good to me! 

 

SG, Crash, and I each have some variations on how we think a liquid microtaper should be done, but when all is said and done, here is really all you need to do.

 

1)  Liquify your benzo (there are several different ways to do that)

 

2) On a daily basis reduce your dose using the liquid to make reasonably consistent dose reductions.

 

How you dissolve it, how you dilute it, how you store it, how you measure it, etc, is not really all that important. :)

[[...]]

 

Looks good to me! 

 

SG, Crash, and I each have some variations on how we think a liquid microtaper should be done, but when all is said and done, here is really all you need to do.

 

1)  Liquify your benzo (there are several different ways to do that)

 

2) On a daily basis reduce your dose using the liquid to make reasonably consistent dose reductions.

 

How you dissolve it, how you dilute it, how you store it, how you measure it, etc, is not really all that important. :)

 

[[my...]]

. I'll give this a go and report back!  Thanks so much 

 

Oops...last question  ...in looking at all my "equipment", I noticed that the syringe has two black marks on the plunger - I assume to easily mark 1/2 of the .10ml marks (or whatever  )...so does one measure from the top black mark, closest to the tip or the bottom one, close to the other end?...can you tell I never took Chemistry??  How did I graduate college???    Or high school for that matter???

 

Thanks guys,

M

[[...]]

. I'll give this a go and report back!  Thanks so much 

 

Oops...last question  ...in looking at all my "equipment", I noticed that the syringe has two black marks on the plunger - I assume to easily mark 1/2 of the .10ml marks (or whatever  )...so does one measure from the top black mark, closest to the tip or the bottom one, close to the other end?...can you tell I never took Chemistry??  How did I graduate college???    Or high school for that matter???

 

Thanks guys,

M

 

Push the plunger all the way to the bottom and note what part of the plunger lines up with 0.  That is the point you measure from.

[[my...]]

Got it.  Thanks. 

 

 

[[ga...]]

Hi. I'm holding and considering starting up a turtle taper at some point, and I have some questions.

 

Right now I am at an even number of capsules of L so I haven't been dissolving for awhile. (I've been at this L dose for 2 months, though I did do a gabapentin cut in there about a month ago.) Each L capsule is 5mg. I take 2 capsules at 7AM, 3PM, 10:30PM (or so).  When I am dissolving L, my daughter does all the dissolving in the evening for the next day. She dissolves one capsule in alcohol, adds water, shakes, pulls and pitches. She does this for each dose separately in its own small amber bottle (empty vitamin bottles).

 

1. Would it be OK to do the liquid L like this? Dissolve one capsule in 3 ml alcohol, dilute, pull and pitch, then dump the other capsule into the bottle and shake it up and set it aside for the next day. That way all of that L dose is a liquid. I know it's now a suspension, but I'm going to drink it all and rinse and drink again anyway. The idea is my brain will be able to understand this better. The L is the liquid. The G is the capsule. Also, if I drink the liquid and somehow forget the capsules (this has happened, though rarely), I at least have all my L in me.

 

2. I wonder if it's OK to just start with a small cut to just one dose even though that will make me uneven? I'm very shaky for lots of reasons. Mornings are dreadful. Cortisol rush plus sleep med hangover is a very bad combo. I want to try a very small reduction and get used to the dissolving again.

 

3. If so, which dose should I try my little cut off of? I take gabapentin with each L dose and some sort of "sleep" med each night. Without the sleep med, as awful as it is, I would not sleep but have panic attacks all night. (Still haven't found anybody who can help me with why the night panics started and what to do about them except for that awful psych nurse who thought long term use of Xanax was the answer. Wish I didn't live in the middle of nowhere.)

 

4. What would a 1% cut be? I dissolve/dilute a 5mg cap in 100ml liquid. That's one of 6 total caps. So would that mean 1% of total dose would be 6ml? My thought is to take 1% off of one dose and wait 2 weeks. (Would that be correct for seeing how the L cut affected me? I was on X before and I don't know about lag time with these slow benzos.) Then do it to another dose and wait. Then do it to the last dose and wait. So then I would be at 3% total reduction, right? And then see if I can tolerate 3% per month rather than just holding and holding. Sort of a compromise between holding and doing a normal taper.

 

5. Or would it really be better to just bite the bullet and dissolve each dose? So then a 1% total cut would be 2ml off of each dose?

 

Thanks.

 

Gard

 

 

[[Ul...]]

I need help. I've been trying to taper off 4 mgs of Klonopin for a month, but have been feeling worse. Yesterday I got some liquid Klonopin from my pharmacy but I need to stabilize. I went back up to the 4 mgs but feel worse than ever and I'm terrified. I don't want to go in the hospital, especially since they'll pump me full of benzo's. another member told me that Builder or SG57 might be able to help me. Please, I'm so scared.

Hugs!

I'm hooked on 60mg diazepam and scared.

No doctor or drug agency will supply me neither.

I plan on starting a taper anyway next week, as Ive only been on 60mg a week, and was only on 30mg before that, underdosed in error for a few weeks.

The daytime dose of 30mg does nothing, but the night time dose really releaxes me.

Hi Journey,

I'm sorry that your hooked on these poison drugs too. It's truly frightening, I know. I have bad anxiety and depression and need help, but these drugs aren't good. They help relax you for awhile, then usually stop working. Then it's so hard to get off of them. Wishing you luck with your taper.

Hugs to you too!

 

Hang tight, AM! You're in the right spot. Just follow what the gang tells you.

 

Jeff

[[ga...]]

Hi, Jeff.  <-mega-waving hi

[[de...]]

SG i am so sorry to bother you again..but i need help i am desperate..i updosed back on march 18th to the 1.93 mgs from the 1.75 mgs to help me pull out of the problems i was having..and now i have not been able to swallow right and from looking at the date it started at almost the same time..could it have been the updose?? could it have back fired on me?? I am down to just broth and pudding..everything else seems to be getting stuck in my throat..not choking  but stuck like a lump..and i have had 2 barium swallows done and nothing so i am starving and getting weaker..

 

some have told me to updose again  to see if that might help..i dont care at this point what i have to do...but i have not cut since i updosed and i am so sick

 

and if i updosed from 1.93mgs to 2mgs would that even be enough for my body to notice at this point..i feel like i am back sliding but i gotta eat.

 

and advice would be greatly appreciated..

 

thanks

 

deep

[[bu...]]

SG i am so sorry to bother you again..but i need help i am desperate..i updosed back on march 18th to the 1.93 mgs from the 1.75 mgs to help me pull out of the problems i was having..and now i have not been able to swallow right and from looking at the date it started at almost the same time..could it have been the updose?? could it have back fired on me?? I am down to just broth and pudding..everything else seems to be getting stuck in my throat..not choking  but stuck like a lump..and i have had 2 barium swallows done and nothing so i am starving and getting weaker..

 

some have told me to updose again  to see if that might help..i dont care at this point what i have to do...but i have not cut since i updosed and i am so sick

 

and if i updosed from 1.93mgs to 2mgs would that even be enough for my body to notice at this point..i feel like i am back sliding but i gotta eat.

 

and advice would be greatly appreciated..

 

thanks

 

deep

 

Highly unlikely.  But in any case, I strongly urge you to see your doc for an evaluation.

 

One of the really scarey things I see here on BB is people assume "...everything is benzo related" and don't get proper care for potentially serious non-benzo sxs!

[[de...]]

builder thanks for getting back to me..i am under 2 docs care at the moment..and they are at a stand still cant figure it out cause both barium swallows came back negative of anything being there..so of course the report wont say withdrawals but it says nothing stuck but could be scratched from having something going down and stuck for a sec..also i have a gi appt monday just trying to keep my strength up til then..and alot are saying an updose isnt going to hurt me..but then again im not getting any better thats for sure ..

 

thanks again

 

deep