Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[...]]

Good morning SG!

 

Just checking in... . I have received some good advice re: the last leg of my taper (which I know is going to last until the end of the summer, early fall..but I'm still calling it the last leg.  ) but I would still like to read your thinking.....So far, so far....this cut has been similar to my last one..a couple of sketchy days, or hours within those days usually close to my next dose or after some more intense experience (long phone call, etc.).  Overall,  I've found that my sxs have not only lessened as I have gone down but the prominent ones (ear pain, chest pressure) have receded or disappeared and others - like body and psychological tension - have taken their place.  Deep breaths and distraction are key here.

 

So I'm wondering just how much longer I can go with my 5% every ten days (yes...still doing c/h  ) til the math doesn't work for me and I need to switch to a set amount...whether MT or c/h...sticking with the ten day overall reduction? Next cut will be Weds. 4/6...then a longer hold by several days for a quick trip to visit grand daughters (and their parents).  We may also be traveling in May, but that's not certain.  I hold for travel and make sure my cut is at least ten days behind departure date.

 

Thanks for the suggestions and continued support...hope all is good with you and that you are moving toward feeling well again. Builder or anyone else...please chime in if you have thoughts!! Thank you.

 

Mana

 

Whether you MT or cut and hold you should always taper based on how you feel.  It sounds like you are still removing 5% at a whack.  I'd like to see you go to 2.5%, but I won't belabor that as you already know I think that.

 

The thing with percentage tapers is the percent is only a means to approximate the way receptor occupancy varies with dose (blood concentration): it is not a rule or tied in any way to physical processes going on in the body.  It does a reasonably good job mimicking occupancy until the dose gets low and the approximation falls apart.  I think what you will find is that your 5% cut will not cause as bad symptoms as it used to as you go lower.  The number of receptors that used to be exposed by a 5% cut at a higher dose might require a 7 or 8% cut to cause the same symptom level.  I guess this is a good thing about percentage cutting: staying with the same percentage will not get you in trouble.  I'd say the opposite will happen: you'll find the 5% cuts are easier in the very low doses.

[[...]]

Thanks SG for your reply.  We cannot get Efffexor XR in a liquid form and cannot get tablets in XR.  I don't quite understand why 4 day hold would not work....can you explain, please.  If I did a .001g cut every 3 days what would that look like.  That type of a cut is approximately 1 bead out of the capsule.

 

It's not that it won't work; it will just be easier on you.  I don't like to see recovery times of more than a few days; ideally it should be one.  This allows the drug to help you the most.  But some prefer to cut and hold.  I do not know how to liquify Effexor, but I am sure it can be done.  This is where being on SA is important.

 

Cutting .001g every three days would be 10.5% a month.  That's not an unreasonable place to begin.  It's a little higher than I am comfortable suggesting, but not a lot higher.  If that is a convenient point to use I'd say it would be okay.

[[my...]]

Thanks, SG... but what I thought would happen would be that at some point, the percentage route ends up not working as it goes on to infinity...isn't that right? At least that is what I recall reading at some point...  Strangely though, when I have plotted it out...until the very last bits  (month or so before stepping off)..I seem to come up with the same length of time with either 5% or changing over to , say, .005 gram cuts every 7-10 days over the same period.  what am I missing?  And if you were to design the remainder of my taper using percentages, what would that look like?  You could use the 5% every ten days just as a way to explain it to me.

 

 

P.S.

I know length of time is not the issue as far as feeling well and healing go....I'm just looking down the road, as many BB's seem to switch over at .30 mg or even more to set gram amounts, then adjust as they continue on.  I see no reason to do that but that is what has been suggested.  What I am hearing from you is that percentages can work in my favor as I get lower.  Good!!  But when do I switch to exact gram amounts -- or is that necessary?  and if so, when?  Thanks again for all. 

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I am hoping one of the mathletes out there can help me out ? Im trying to figure out how much each 1ml drop is during my MT . I am using 100 ml syringes . I use .2 mg of ativan as my dosage .And dose twice daily . And make a 3 day batch at this time . So .90 drug , 600 ml liquid , 3 days doses ,going down 2 ml daily . Anyone ? Im feeling pretty good for the most part but my sleep is getting a little rockier .Im having some really vivid dreams and nightmares .Im thinking either Im going a smidge fast or its just my brain healing . I do feel WAY better then I did doing the dry cuts .Thanks to crash bandicoot for all your encouragement and knowledge on the MT ! By any chance does anyone know if the vivid dreams are a sign of the body getting closer to the healing point ?

 

I used to get vivid dreams.  They are a common symptom.  I don't think symptoms are ever a sign of healing.  I think they are a sign something is wrong and not working quite right.  OTOH, being at a lower dose and feeling well is a sure sign of healing.  But what Builder said is very true: once you begin tapering the body is constantly working to correct things.

[[...]]

Thanks, SG... but what I thought would happen would be that at some point, the percentage route ends up not working as it goes on to infinity...isn't that right? At least that is what I recall reading at some point...  Strangely though, when I have plotted it out...until the very last bits  (month or so before stepping off)..I seem to come up with the same length of time with either 5% or changing over to , say, .005 gram cuts every 7-10 days over the same period.  what am I missing?  And if you were to design the remainder of my taper using percentages, what would that look like?  You could use the 5% every ten days just as a way to explain it to me.

 

 

A 5% cut and a .005g cut will not take the same time: the .005g cut is finite; the 5% cut is not - although you'd find 5% so easy you'd increase it near the end and eventually get so low you'd just stop.  I'd abandon percentages at the end and just go with whatever your cut size was and keep using that, making it smaller as needed.

[[ji...]]

Thanks SG  I just got back from a walk and realized I had said my constant dosage in my solution was .90 .Its not .90 its .60 .The .90 is my dry weight  Also Ive been tapering since I started taking this stuff .Well five days in . I wonder if it makes any difference in the healing process since i have never really gotten "used" to any specific dosage . Heres hoping that the brain has been healing all along !

[[bc...]]

Thanks SG.....I will have to do some thinking in what is the best thing to do.  I need to come off the drug....but am really scared of the WD.  Thank you for the information..just need to do some more thinking.....

 

Sending healing thoughts to all.......

[[ar...]]

Thanks SG.....I will have to do some thinking in what is the best thing to do.  I need to come off the drug....but am really scared of the WD.  Thank you for the information..just need to do some more thinking.....

 

Sending healing thoughts to all.......

 

bcalm2,

 

The site SG is talking about is here.

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/

 

I am not sure if linking is breaking the rules.  If so, forgive me.

 

Best Wishes

[[my...]]

Got it!!  Thank you    A good way of approaching it. That is, continue with percentages until much lower, then switch, using the last "cut" amount in grams and continue on - reducing gram amounts and /or holding as needed - to zero.

 

Much appreciated. 

 

 

[[my...]]

This is for jinko....  am I reading your signature correctly, that you began taking 2 mg Ativan daily on 11/16 and began your taper on 11/22?  Or were you on Ativan for a longer period of time?  It would help me understand (if you wouldn't mind sharing the info) how you were able to taper almost 2 mg in such a relatively short period.  If you could just post when you began taking Ativan (how long you had been on it before your initial reductions) that would be good.

 

Thank you,

Mana

[[ji...]]

Hi my mana ,yes you were reading it correctly .I started tapering 5 days after starting it .  I took 2 mg daily for five days only then started reducing .And the reason I was taking it in the first place was due to a bad drug reaction from antacids that messed with my CNS . Plus hormone issues .So it would have been a really bad idea to just stop c/t after 5 days because my nerves were still shot .I had never taken a benzo in my life .Thank god I did start tapering almost immediately .I would have been in for a really long haul .As it is now Im fairly stable .The jump from .50 to .25 was a rough one though . I got some nasty shakes and had to go on a beta blocker .Then had to taper the beta blocker because my blood pressure fell off .It has not been without some bumps in the road for sure but all in all it could have been much worse . This benzo turned me into a zombie and made me depressed from the get go

[Guest [Jo...]]

I'm glad there is a micro tapering support group on here now, cos I plan to micro taper my valiuum as soon as my dose as bedded in properly from my recent c/o from zopiclone.

I am also microtapering pregabain as its water soluble, which makes it loads easier.

[[my...]]

Thanks for responding, jinko. 

 

Good for you that you didn't really become physically addicted to 2 mgs of Ativan, although since you have been tapering gradually, the flip side is that you will have been on some portion of it for longer, thus the "bumps in the road".  In any case, I'm happy for you.  And also kind of reassured that the fact that it takes so many of us so long to taper off of these drugs is b/c we were on them for a matter of years. 

 

Soon you will be free!! 

[[bc...]]

Thanks arcade79.....I have checked out the link.  Lots of information on that site.  Will be reading up on things.

 

Sending healing thoughts......

[[ji...]]

I agree completely my manana .Ive thought about that . A couple of months ago I contemplated jumping from the .25 so I didnt keep putting this crud in my body .But then thought what if it turns into this long drawn out deal of side effects and I have to reinstate anyway .I came to the conclusion its best to go fairly slow and do it right the first time .Im sure a doctor would think I was nuts going this slow and MT with liquid but oh well they dont have to live with the consequences . My PC nurse did think the liquid tapering was a great idea .As a matter of fact I learned one of the other nurses in the clinic started taking ativan about the same time as I did and took it for a couple of months and dry cut her doses to .25 really quickly and jumped .She said she didnt sleep for 2 weeks .Its scary when you think about it . Five days of daily usage can cost you 5 or 6 months of tapering .That is nuts . Honestly I really feel so bad for everyone that has been on these things for years .We trust our doctors and Im sure it never even dawned on most of us how tough they are to kick and how physically addicting they are .Good luck to everyone .I have no doubt we will all look back some day 100% healed and be stronger for having gone through it

[[ji...]]

Sorry my mana .I just realized I was called you my manana ,lol 

[[St...]]

ok, I am preparing my doses for tomorrow, and I don't have any PG yet, I was told on another site, that I could double the water in my liquid to dilute the vodka more, is this possible...it would then be 1ml vodka and 198ml water, wouldn't that dilute the strength of the benzo too much?  I was also told I could use milk to dilute the Ativan?  ANd, then told I could just use distilled water and no alcohol....I am sooooo confused.  Could somebody clear some of this up for me?  I just know that soon after I dose the liquid I get very sick to my stomach every time....it has been five weeks now, I should be adjusted I think...?    I still don't want to give up on the LT....other sxs have gotten better, just stuck with the nausea and cramping after dosing....thanks!

 

I know, I know....I ask too many questions, but I am a retired librarian, it is my nature to research...what can I say...lol!!!  Stella

[[...]]

ok, I am preparing my doses for tomorrow, and I don't have any PG yet, I was told on another site, that I could double the water in my liquid to dilute the vodka more, is this possible...it would then be 1ml vodka and 198ml water, wouldn't that dilute the strength of the benzo too much?  I was also told I could use milk to dilute the Ativan?  ANd, then told I could just use distilled water and no alcohol....I am sooooo confused.  Could somebody clear some of this up for me?  I just know that soon after I dose the liquid I get very sick to my stomach every time....it has been five weeks now, I should be adjusted I think...?    I still don't want to give up on the LT....other sxs have gotten better, just stuck with the nausea and cramping after dosing....thanks!

 

I know, I know....I ask too many questions, but I am a retired librarian, it is my nature to research...what can I say...lol!!!  Stella

 

It is important to remain very skeptical as there is a lot of wrong information mixed with correct info on the forum.  PG or alcohol will work with Ativan.  The alcohol needs to be 80 proof bare minimum and use at least 2ml per mg of Ativan.  I'd dilute with at least 100ml water per mg.

 

That's odd that the dose makes you feel sick.  I find ginger to be extremely effective for me with nausea.  It is so effective I wonder why we even have OTC and prescription remedies since they are poisons and ginger is actually good for you.  How did we end up with the poison being the standard?

 

It is encouraging that some symptoms have gotten better in only five weeks.  Repair is a slow process: a lot of time is needed.  But you can be sure that your body is using the time to correct what is wrong.  Those five weeks did not go to waste.

[[in...]]

hi all',

 

well the c/h dry cut every 1-2 weeks of 5% making me batty  , insane, I would like to know how to do a daily micro taper using my scale dry cut on my current Ativan dose to lower it more gradually...........

here is what im at now (below) and any help would be great,

my schedule thus far:

 

Q? how much do shave off each day?

 

Morning A 1mg + .0236g then Afternoon 1mg =2.2mg daily.

(no taper yet on the 2mg Klon at night) I have held at 2.2 mg A since 3/23/16

 

help, so how do I go down from here? help please,

hugs

INP

 

 

[[bu...]]

ok, I am preparing my doses for tomorrow, and I don't have any PG yet, I was told on another site, that I could double the water in my liquid to dilute the vodka more, is this possible...it would then be 1ml vodka and 198ml water, wouldn't that dilute the strength of the benzo too much?  I was also told I could use milk to dilute the Ativan?  ANd, then told I could just use distilled water and no alcohol....I am sooooo confused.  Could somebody clear some of this up for me?  I just know that soon after I dose the liquid I get very sick to my stomach every time....it has been five weeks now, I should be adjusted I think...?    I still don't want to give up on the LT....other sxs have gotten better, just stuck with the nausea and cramping after dosing....thanks!

 

I know, I know....I ask too many questions, but I am a retired librarian, it is my nature to research...what can I say...lol!!!  Stella

 

1) Yes, you can increase the amount of water

 

2) Yes, ativan is lipid (fat) soluble.  It will dissolve in whole milk

 

3) No, you cannot use distilled water, unless you first dissolve it in a solvent like PG or alcohol.

[[...]]

Hello MT Buddies! Hey My Mana!!! 

 

Well I have not posted here in a long time but I'd like to say how much of a micro-tapering convert I am!! I dry cut daily and it's enabled me to come from 3mg to 1.25 mg K in a year with a 4-month hold for a wonderful summer holiday. Symptoms resumed and I took it as my cue to begin cutting again. Symptoms are highly manageable (the only real issue is my fatigue but I've had it long before coming off, maybe tolerance/by-product of my anxiety and/or lowering of an AD...).

 

With the cut & hold method, I was anxious before each cut. What was going to happen?... now I hardly think about it. If symptoms show, they show, I know it is easy to put brakes on and "stop" them in their tracks.

 

Still north of 1 mg... and Diazepam to get off too. But Micro-tapering has given me the confidence that I will get off those drugs 

 

It's a shame there isn't much literature out there (studies, peer-reviewed stuff) about this method... not that I have found anyway.

 

Best wishes to All!

Julz xxx

[[...]]

so I think Im supposed to shave .01 off daily right?

 

Hi INP,

 

I believe you've come to the right place 

 

First things first, I'd take a while to stabilise as your last cut wasn't much longer than a week ago.

 

Secondly, it's a good idea to look at what options are available to you, and yes you can micro-taper either by liquefying or dry-cutting.

 

As to how much you cut off and even whether you decrease daily, every couple of days or even less, there is no rule, what matters is that you feel as well as possible.

 

I'm sure you will get some advice/personal opinions by our "MT experts" about the way you dose - it is usually good to keep your plasma concentrations as steady as possible throughout the day. That might be the place to start...

 

Hang in there, practical help is coming 

 

 

[[no...]]

Hi all  I would just like to point out the difference in the way Alcohol strength is shown on bottles in USA and UK to avoid confusion  . The UK now uses the ABV standard (alcohol by volume) instead of alcohol proof. In the United States, alcoholic proof is defined as twice the percentage of ABV. So 80% proof in USA would be 4O ABV in UK

 

 

Love Nova xxx  :smitten:

[[in...]]

thanks Julz,

 

im desperate to get my somewhat of a life back, i don't know how much to dry cut daily, i have a gemini 20 scale.

 

I would love to try LT if it does not need to be refrigerated, i did buy these before (below), when i was going to try LT, but i didn't know what I was to do...........if I don't need to refridge a liquid, I could prob can swing it?

 

I have on hand

1 ML TB slip-tip disposable syringe MVI 100/bx (without needle)

 

help anyone, INP

[[...]]

hi all',

 

well the c/h dry cut every 1-2 weeks of 5% making me batty  , insane, I would like to know how to do a daily micro taper using my scale dry cut on my current Ativan dose to lower it more gradually...........

here is what im at now (below) and any help would be great,

my schedule thus far:

 

Q? how much do shave off each day?

 

Morning A 1mg + .0236g then Afternoon 1mg =2.2mg daily.

(no taper yet on the 2mg Klon at night) I have held at 2.2 mg A since 3/23/16

 

help, so how do I go down from here? help please,

hugs

INP

 

So your dose looks like...

 

1.2mg A AM; 1mg A AFT; 2mg K PM

 

Why do you dose like that?  What are your pill sizes?  How much do they weigh?