Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[...]]

Hey SG, any thoughts on the 2nd part of my post regarding a hospital visit/surgery?

 

Jeff

 

Not really.  Gard's suggestions sounded good to me.

[[...]]

What liquid do you use for dissolving Librium? I have capsules. Does it pour out of the capsule easily?

I want something to dissolve it, not just a suspension.

Thank you.

 

Or has anyone used a scale to MT Librium? I have one to 0.0001g.

 

Currently at 15 mg L, down from 20.

[[...]]

What liquid do you use for dissolving Librium? I have capsules. Does it pour out of the capsule easily?

I want something to dissolve it, not just a suspension.

Thank you.

 

Or has anyone used a scale to MT Librium? I have one to 0.0001g.

 

Currently at 15 mg L, down from 20.

 

Solubility of Librium is a bit confusing.  It was said to be soluble in water, and I had believed that for a long time.  But I have since found solid data that has measured its solubility in water to be .11mg/ml, which is not much better than other benzos.  Given the confusion, I'd use either PG or alcohol to dissolve it first, just as is done with the other benzos.  These liquids will dissolve L well, then you can dilute with enough water to keep the L dissolved.

[Guest [ba...]]

What liquid do you use for dissolving Librium? I have capsules. Does it pour out of the capsule easily?

I want something to dissolve it, not just a suspension.

Thank you.

 

Or has anyone used a scale to MT Librium? I have one to 0.0001g.

 

Currently at 15 mg L, down from 20.

 

There's no reason that you couldn't dry cut MT your librium using that scale.

[[ga...]]

Hey SG and Builder,

 

I haven't been on the site a whole lot lately. I had major surgery on my back several years back and did some real damage to it again about 9 days ago. Been on my back or stomach from then until now while waiting until April 12 to get to the orthopedic doc. Been down this path before and know it all too well, so probably looking at surgery again based on everything that's going on. I looked briefly at some of the posts over the chunk of days and saw some conversation about PG. I've got a crazy long ways to go with this K taper, but I was wondering if I should use PG as a solvent. I've been using vodka to this point. As you know, I've had to hold for months at a time due to so many other problems related to the long-term benzo use. Is PG that much "better"? I have a hard time cutting whenever I do cut, so I was wondering if PG may be helpful. I'd appreciate any guidance.

 

Oh...obviously, I'd like to be at an "even" number (that comes in pill form) of milligrams when I go the hospital to have surgery (like, 1.50mg or 1.25mg). I'd hardly expect the nurses to mix up my liquid doses each day   Any thoughts on what people do when something comes up and they have to go into the hospital for a procedure, but they're at a weird dose, such as 1.39mg, at the time?

 

Hang tough everybody!

 

Jeff

 

Jeff, Can somebody bring you your doses from home? Or can you mix them up ahead and put them in little bottles or in capped oral syringes?

 

Amazon has amber bottles called Boston rounds and oral syringes that come with caps. I've mixed up a week's worth of doses ahead and carried them around in bottles or capped syringes. If you look at my progress log (Gardener's Collection), I think there are links on there to what I bought.

 

I'm pretty sure when I was held overnight for observation when I had tachycardia I just kept my meds in my bag and took them myself.

 

Or does the hospital insist they have to have all of your meds?

 

Good luck and hope you are feeling better soon.

 

Gard

 

Hey Gard. Yeh, they tell me that they have to see me take the med(s) they give me so they can document it. Obviously, it would be nice to be at a "normal" dose of K by the time surgery rolls around, but I can't really time or control that. Good ideas though on your end. I hope you're doing well too!!

 

Hugs to you!

 

Jeff

 

Just admitting what I did and not telling anybody to do this, but I took stuff they never knew I had with me. In my case, they we're not giving me any meds, just observing me, so there was no worry about interactions.

 

Being the devious person that I am, if they insisted on whole pills and keeping them and administering them, plus I needed to be somewhat concerned about drug interactions, I would give them the whole pills part and let them do that and document it. And then I would conceal the dissolved part and take it myself. Actually, I would have my daughter do that for me because I might mess it up. And because I have learned to never go to a hospital without an advocate there documenting everything and watching out for my interests. The hospital staff are busy people with many patients. Mistakes are made.

 

Hope that was helpful. And best wishes always!

 

Gard

[[ga...]]

What liquid do you use for dissolving Librium? I have capsules. Does it pour out of the capsule easily?

I want something to dissolve it, not just a suspension.

Thank you.

 

Or has anyone used a scale to MT Librium? I have one to 0.0001g.

 

Currently at 15 mg L, down from 20.

 

After lots of discussion with the chemistry people on this thread, here's what I do.

 

I have all of my L in 5mg capsules. I dissolve one 5mg capsule of L in 3ml of 80 proof vodka (let it soak about half an hour and swish it around occasionally just to make sure it's dissolved) then add 97ml of water to make 100ml of solution. (I measure small amounts of liquids with oral syringes and the 97ml with a graduated cylinder.)

 

I do open the little capsules very carefully and right over the top of the jar and pour it out. It took a bit of practice to know how hard to grip each part of the capsule so I could twist and pull the "top" of the capsule off without crushing the capsule. After a few tries, I was good at it and no more problems. Sometimes I have to tap the end of the open capsule a bit if there's a bit stuck of powder stuck at the bottom, but I've never had any serious trouble getting the L to all come out.

 

BTW, the fillers will not all dissolve and you will see them floating around as white specks.

 

Gard

[[bu...]]

What liquid do you use for dissolving Librium? I have capsules. Does it pour out of the capsule easily?

I want something to dissolve it, not just a suspension.

Thank you.

 

Or has anyone used a scale to MT Librium? I have one to 0.0001g.

 

Currently at 15 mg L, down from 20.

 

Solubility of Librium is a bit confusing.  It was said to be soluble in water, and I had believed that for a long time.  But I have since found solid data that has measured its solubility in water to be .11mg/ml, which is not much better than other benzos.  Given the confusion, I'd use either PG or alcohol to dissolve it first, just as is done with the other benzos.  These liquids will dissolve L well, then you can dilute with enough water to keep the L dissolved.

 

:thumbsup:

[[...]]

Ok, so 5 mg of L into 3 ml of alcohol or 3 ml of PG? Where do you buy PG?

Good to know all the L comes out.

 

If I use the scale, is this right? Dump out the powder onto weigh boat, after taring. Remove my cut amt. then pour it back into capsule to take? Would I need to pour it into a bigger capsule? Could I just pour it into water and drink?

 

I would love to not introduce any new variables like a liquid if you think the scale will work. Does anyone know how much the contents of a 5 mg L capsule weighs on average. Or do I assume each one has 5 mg L and just base my cut amt on the weight of that capsule's contents. I guess that's what happens w/ liquid titration.

Thanks!

[[bu...]]

Ok, so 5 mg of L into 3 ml of alcohol or 3 ml of PG? Where do you buy PG?

Good to know all the L comes out.

 

If I use the scale, is this right? Dump out the powder onto weigh boat, after taring. Remove my cut amt. then pour it back into capsule to take? Would I need to pour it into a bigger capsule? Could I just pour it into water and drink?

 

I would love to not introduce any new variables like a liquid if you think the scale will work. Does anyone know how much the contents of a 5 mg L capsule weighs on average. Or do I assume each one has 5 mg L and just base my cut amt on the weight of that capsule's contents. I guess that's what happens w/ liquid titration.

Thanks!

  Major pharmacies, specialty food stores, Amazon.

[[...]]

Ok, so 5 mg of L into 3 ml of alcohol or 3 ml of PG? Where do you buy PG?

Good to know all the L comes out.

 

If I use the scale, is this right? Dump out the powder onto weigh boat, after taring. Remove my cut amt. then pour it back into capsule to take? Would I need to pour it into a bigger capsule? Could I just pour it into water and drink?

 

I would love to not introduce any new variables like a liquid if you think the scale will work. Does anyone know how much the contents of a 5 mg L capsule weighs on average. Or do I assume each one has 5 mg L and just base my cut amt on the weight of that capsule's contents. I guess that's what happens w/ liquid titration.

Thanks!

 

We don't have data on PG dissolving L, but it is a good bet that it does and I think 3ml would be plenty to dissolve 5mg.  With alcohol the proof makes a big difference.  3ml of 80 proof should be enough, but if you have a higher proof I'd use it.

 

The scale will work, just might be really finicky and a lot of work.  You'd need to measure the average powder weight from ten 5mg pills.  Once you know that you will be all set.

[[ga...]]

Ok, so 5 mg of L into 3 ml of alcohol or 3 ml of PG? Where do you buy PG?

Good to know all the L comes out.

 

If I use the scale, is this right? Dump out the powder onto weigh boat, after taring. Remove my cut amt. then pour it back into capsule to take? Would I need to pour it into a bigger capsule? Could I just pour it into water and drink?

 

I would love to not introduce any new variables like a liquid if you think the scale will work. Does anyone know how much the contents of a 5 mg L capsule weighs on average. Or do I assume each one has 5 mg L and just base my cut amt on the weight of that capsule's contents. I guess that's what happens w/ liquid titration.

Thanks!

 

We don't have data on PG dissolving L, but it is a good bet that it does and I think 3ml would be plenty to dissolve 5mg.  With alcohol the proof makes a big difference.  3ml of 80 proof should be enough, but if you have a higher proof I'd use it.

 

The scale will work, just might be really finicky and a lot of work.  You'd need to measure the average powder weight from ten 5mg pills.  Once you know that you will be all set.

 

Agreed! (But I have always hated working with scales.)

[[Pi...]]

Okay I have a question. I will be micro tapping soon. Been on for 8 years. I take 2mg klonopin. 1mg in morning and 1mg at night.  So on a 1mg tablet, how much am I supposed to cut everyday? Is it .001?

[[...]]

Okay I have a question. I will be micro tapping soon. Been on for 8 years. I take 2mg klonopin. 1mg in morning and 1mg at night.  So on a 1mg tablet, how much am I supposed to cut everyday? Is it .001?

It depends on how dependent you are and how fast you heal, so you won't know until you test.  Since you don't know, I recommend beginning your search at ~8% a month.  Since your dose is 2mg, this would be .16mg a month or .005mg a day.

[[mo...]]

Hi All,

 

Question for anyone who might have some input, ideas or experience...

 

I have been micro-tapering using high octane vodka and water since I switched  from "cut and hold" when I got down to 8 mg V. I started tapering at .05 mg (5 mls) per day, then went to .03 mg per day and then to .02 mg per day as I got lower in dose and sxs became bothersome. I also held for short periods of time when needed.

 

I am now down to 3.5 (it's been a s-l-o-w process!) and although I have the liquid micro-tapering figured out to a simple routine (thanks to all you BBs who helped me along the way!), I would like to put away the syringe and cylinder for awhile and just divide my 2mg dry tablets to get my 3.5 mg dose.

 

I take 1/2 a tablet (1mg) each morning and 2 -1/4 tablet (2.5 mg) at night. I know breaking a half of a tablet into another half is not exact, but since it's V and it has a long half-life and I'm taking the other quarter of the pill the very next day anyway, does it really have to be EXACTLY .5 mg every day? Is a few one-hundredths of a mg higher or lower going to stress out my receptors?

 

I will be holding for two months so I can (hopefully) avoid sxs while going back to teach for Spring Term -- and I just REALLY want a break from the taper routine. I know I've messed up my doses a few times in the past like forgetting a single dose or getting my count down wrong on some days and it never seemed to affect me. My sxs tend to hit me after I've been cutting steadily for awhile -- usually at around day 3-5 after I've cut by at least .1 mg now.

 

I don't want to dry measure, I just want to break the pills up, pop them into my mouth and go about my business.

 

Thanks !

 

Mo

[Guest [ba...]]

I don't believe that the small 'error' in pill splitting will be very noticeable since (as you said) you're taking the other piece the very next day.  Your strategy sounds reasonable.  I hope it works well for you.

[[Pi...]]

Been on Klonopin for 8 years. Switched to 1mg in morning and 1mg at night. Bout to do the micro taper. But have a question,  on one pill, am I cutting .001mg? Or more?  In desperate help. And my scale wouldn't read that low, any suggestions?  Thanks.

 

Also how is this easier on the brain doing it faster than holding for 2 weeks?

 

 

[[...]]

Hi All,

 

Question for anyone who might have some input, ideas or experience...

 

I have been micro-tapering using high octane vodka and water since I switched  from "cut and hold" when I got down to 8 mg V. I started tapering at .05 mg (5 mls) per day, then went to .03 mg per day and then to .02 mg per day as I got lower in dose and sxs became bothersome. I also held for short periods of time when needed.

 

I am now down to 3.5 (it's been a s-l-o-w process!) and although I have the liquid micro-tapering figured out to a simple routine (thanks to all you BBs who helped me along the way!), I would like to put away the syringe and cylinder for awhile and just divide my 2mg dry tablets to get my 3.5 mg dose.

 

I take 1/2 a tablet (1mg) each morning and 2 -1/4 tablet (2.5 mg) at night. I know breaking a half of a tablet into another half is not exact, but since it's V and it has a long half-life and I'm taking the other quarter of the pill the very next day anyway, does it really have to be EXACTLY .5 mg every day? Is a few one-hundredths of a mg higher or lower going to stress out my receptors?

 

I will be holding for two months so I can (hopefully) avoid sxs while going back to teach for Spring Term -- and I just REALLY want a break from the taper routine. I know I've messed up my doses a few times in the past like forgetting a single dose or getting my count down wrong on some days and it never seemed to affect me. My sxs tend to hit me after I've been cutting steadily for awhile -- usually at around day 3-5 after I've cut by at least .1 mg now.

 

I don't want to dry measure, I just want to break the pills up, pop them into my mouth and go about my business.

 

Thanks !

 

Mo

 

The question is, how accurate is a quartered pill?  IDK.  I doubt a pill can be split once to greater than 5-10% accuracy - and that's with a score line.  If you split it again I'd think that number would get quite a bit bigger...maybe 25%?  That's a big fluctuation, but as you say, you are correcting it the next day...and that is huge.  I think it will be okay.  I think the main thing is you are holding for two months.

 

You dose half a pill in the morning and a full pill plus a quarter pill at night.  If we apply a 10% error to the morning split and a 25% error to the .5mg portion of the evening split that would potentially allow 1mg to go as low as .9mg and the .5mg portion to go as low as .375mg, throwing off the daily dose by as much as .225mg.

 

What you might do is make sure you get the other half of the same morning pill the next day and all four quarters of the 2mg pill in four successive days.  This way, over a four-day period, you will have dosed exactly the right amount...14mg.

[[bu...]]

Hi All,

 

Question for anyone who might have some input, ideas or experience...

 

I have been micro-tapering using high octane vodka and water since I switched  from "cut and hold" when I got down to 8 mg V. I started tapering at .05 mg (5 mls) per day, then went to .03 mg per day and then to .02 mg per day as I got lower in dose and sxs became bothersome. I also held for short periods of time when needed.

 

I am now down to 3.5 (it's been a s-l-o-w process!) and although I have the liquid micro-tapering figured out to a simple routine (thanks to all you BBs who helped me along the way!), I would like to put away the syringe and cylinder for awhile and just divide my 2mg dry tablets to get my 3.5 mg dose.

 

I take 1/2 a tablet (1mg) each morning and 2 -1/4 tablet (2.5 mg) at night. I know breaking a half of a tablet into another half is not exact, but since it's V and it has a long half-life and I'm taking the other quarter of the pill the very next day anyway, does it really have to be EXACTLY .5 mg every day? Is a few one-hundredths of a mg higher or lower going to stress out my receptors?

 

I will be holding for two months so I can (hopefully) avoid sxs while going back to teach for Spring Term -- and I just REALLY want a break from the taper routine. I know I've messed up my doses a few times in the past like forgetting a single dose or getting my count down wrong on some days and it never seemed to affect me. My sxs tend to hit me after I've been cutting steadily for awhile -- usually at around day 3-5 after I've cut by at least .1 mg now.

 

I don't want to dry measure, I just want to break the pills up, pop them into my mouth and go about my business.

 

Thanks !

 

Mo

 

That will work just fine...I promise! 

 

Consistency is much more important than accuracy! 

 

BTW, I also had difficulties at 3.5mg. I held for 2 weeks, updosed to 3.7, and lowered my cute rate to .0125mg/day.  I had absolutely no problems after that.

[[...]]

Been on Klonopin for 8 years. Switched to 1mg in morning and 1mg at night. Bout to do the micro taper. But have a question,  on one pill, am I cutting .001mg? Or more?  In desperate help. And my scale wouldn't read that low, any suggestions?  Thanks.

 

Also how is this easier on the brain doing it faster than holding for 2 weeks?

 

I went through this on your other thread, but to answer again...I suggested ~8% a month which would be .005mg a day.  You'd need to weigh your pills to find out how much that is in pill weight on the scale.

 

It's easier since it keeps the drug in your body to help with symptoms until it is ready to be removed: it makes the most use of the drug.

[[bc...]]

Wondering is someone could help me......I have been off benzos for 6 months...but have to taper my AD.....due to health concerns.  I would like to know what a micro taper would look like.  I know there is another forum out there that deals with ADs but I would like to stay on this forum.    The capsule is 37.5 mg and the contents weigh .095mg (taking an average of 5 capsules).

 

Would someone know what the daily dose would be at?  Thank you for your support.

 

Sending healing thoughts to all......

[[my...]]

Good morning SG!

 

Just checking in... . I have received some good advice re: the last leg of my taper (which I know is going to last until the end of the summer, early fall..but I'm still calling it the last leg.  ) but I would still like to read your thinking.....So far, so far....this cut has been similar to my last one..a couple of sketchy days, or hours within those days usually close to my next dose or after some more intense experience (long phone call, etc.).  Overall,  I've found that my sxs have not only lessened as I have gone down but the prominent ones (ear pain, chest pressure) have receded or disappeared and others - like body and psychological tension - have taken their place.  Deep breaths and distraction are key here.

 

So I'm wondering just how much longer I can go with my 5% every ten days (yes...still doing c/h  ) til the math doesn't work for me and I need to switch to a set amount...whether MT or c/h...sticking with the ten day overall reduction? Next cut will be Weds. 4/6...then a longer hold by several days for a quick trip to visit grand daughters (and their parents).  We may also be traveling in May, but that's not certain.  I hold for travel and make sure my cut is at least ten days behind departure date.

 

Thanks for the suggestions and continued support...hope all is good with you and that you are moving toward feeling well again. Builder or anyone else...please chime in if you have thoughts!! Thank you.

 

Mana

 

 

[[...]]

Wondering is someone could help me......I have been off benzos for 6 months...but have to taper my AD.....due to health concerns.  I would like to know what a micro taper would look like.  I know there is another forum out there that deals with ADs but I would like to stay on this forum.    The capsule is 37.5 mg and the contents weigh .095mg (taking an average of 5 capsules).

 

Would someone know what the daily dose would be at?  Thank you for your support.

 

Sending healing thoughts to all......

 

I can kind of frame the taper, but I think you should become a member of SA to do the AD taper.  That's a solid forum over there.  I like the way they approach psych drug tapering and they know the subtleties of ADs.  You won't get that here.

 

Generally, all psych drugs follow the same formula: they should be microtapered and 10-20% a month seems to be the common range that the majority can handle, with outliers on both ends.  Your sig says you are on 37.5mg of Effexor?  The contents weigh .095g (without the capsule, right?).  That's 395mg/g or .395mg for each 001g on the scale.  If you began with ~8% a month that would be 3mg a month or .1mg a day.  Since you can't cut that small the best you can do with a scale is cut .001g every four days, so you would do a c/h/h/h pattern.  I'd recommend a switch to liquid as four days is getting too far out there.  With liquid you could make the .1mg daily reduction with no problem.

[[bc...]]

Thanks SG for your reply.  We cannot get Efffexor XR in a liquid form and cannot get tablets in XR.  I don't quite understand why 4 day hold would not work....can you explain, please.  If I did a .001g cut every 3 days what would that look like.  That type of a cut is approximately 1 bead out of the capsule.

[[ji...]]

I am hoping one of the mathletes out there can help me out ? Im trying to figure out how much each 1ml drop is during my MT . I am using 100 ml syringes . I use .2 mg of ativan as my dosage .And dose twice daily . And make a 3 day batch at this time . So .90 drug , 600 ml liquid , 3 days doses ,going down 2 ml daily . Anyone ? Im feeling pretty good for the most part but my sleep is getting a little rockier .Im having some really vivid dreams and nightmares .Im thinking either Im going a smidge fast or its just my brain healing . I do feel WAY better then I did doing the dry cuts .Thanks to crash bandicoot for all your encouragement and knowledge on the MT ! By any chance does anyone know if the vivid dreams are a sign of the body getting closer to the healing point ?

[[bu...]]

I am hoping one of the mathletes out there can help me out ? Im trying to figure out how much each 1ml drop is during my MT . I am using 100 ml syringes . I use .2 mg of ativan as my dosage .And dose twice daily . And make a 3 day batch at this time . So .90 drug , 600 ml liquid , 3 days doses ,going down 2 ml daily . Anyone ? Im feeling pretty good for the most part but my sleep is getting a little rockier .Im having some really vivid dreams and nightmares .Im thinking either Im going a smidge fast or its just my brain healing . I do feel WAY better then I did doing the dry cuts .Thanks to crash bandicoot for all your encouragement and knowledge on the MT ! By any chance does anyone know if the vivid dreams are a sign of the body getting closer to the healing point ?

 

 

"... .90 drug , 600 ml liquid , 3 days doses ,going down 2 ml daily"

 

.90/600=.0015 mg/ml

 

2ml= .0030mg

If you're tapering, you're healing.