Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[Le...]]

2mg in 200ml is .01mg/ml so 2.5ml is .025mg and would be 5% a month.  That's very conservative.  You can likely do more, but it is a gentle rate if you want to go with it.

 

15mg and three doses, so each dose is 5mg.  If you have 2mg pills, each dose would be two 2mg pills plus 1mg (100ml) wet.  To cut all three doses at once use 300mls (3mg) and take your cut from this before you split it into three even doses.  Eyeball them even on the counter.

SG. I don't know how I'll react to the liquid solution so not sure I want to liquify 3mg. I thought most people liquify and MT from 1mg at a time...or does it depend on the person? 

 

Sorry for all the questions and thanks for all of your help,  Left

 

Some people liquify the entire dose.  It's a preference and not really important.  I always try to use the smallest number of whole pills and not split pills.  If you want to do 1mg wet and 14mg dry the doses go unbalanced a little and you'd need to remember to use the other half of the same pill the next day.  Doses would be...

 

AM: 5mg dry+.333mg (33.3ml) wet

Aft: 5mg dry+.333mg (33.3ml) wet

PM: 4mg dry+.333mg (33.3ml) wet

 

You'd then cut from Am and Aft doses to bring them even or just let them be unbalanced.  It's a lot cleaner and easier to liquify 3mg.  It's only 20% of your dose.

SG, thanks for providing an alternative for reducing. I read too much and get anxious when I hear about other people having trouble with the liquid. Guess I need to clear my mind and dive in. Thanks a lot. Hope you have a good day/evening.

[[bu...]]

 

SG, thanks for providing an alternative for reducing. I read too much and get anxious when I hear about other people having trouble with the liquid. Guess I need to clear my mind and dive in. Thanks a lot. Hope you have a good day/evening.

  Just keep in mind...

1) dry or liquid, its the same med

2) your tablet is a liquid in seconds after you swallow it.

[[de...]]

You have the drug, it's just not convenient.  Add any missing weight from a small chip of another pill to make the weight right.

SG I understand about the weight...my concern is if the pill weighs .166 gms then i would need the whole thing to make 2 doses and what i am saying is that would up my dose to 2mgs ...and if i added another piece cause the 1mg didnt weigh enough theres still 1mg of k in it so then i would be over 2mgs a day in that scenario..is there any way i can maybe back off already since i should have tried the 5 % first or since i have done that since saturday morning am i kinda stuck here as of now??

 

thanks as always for your help

 

 

deep

 

The weight of the pill is the more accurate measure of dose.  If a pill weighs less than your average weight then it does not have 1mg K in it.  It is short by some amount.  You have four doses of .083g now, right?  So your daily weight is .332g.  That is your correct dose.  Make your total weight equal .332g.

 

I would not go back now if it were me.  In fact, I'd be thinking of going up more.

 

 

SG  thanks..and i will just make the doses add up ..i was just wondering cause when i went and tried the .05mgs and some were weighing the exact amount that i needed to cut and it kinda threw me then you said to go back to the 1mgs til i was lower due to the fact that i would be taking more since i wouldnt be cutting the pill at all since it was the weight it needed to be and i was below .05mgs per dose..

 

and why would you suggest i updose more..?? My docs would never go for that one..they dont mind that i did this this time or when i need a hold but never to go bavck up like 1/4 mgs to have to go back down that same road unless i could give them a really good reason for doing that one..

 

thanks

 

deep

[[Le...]]

 

SG, thanks for providing an alternative for reducing. I read too much and get anxious when I hear about other people having trouble with the liquid. Guess I need to clear my mind and dive in. Thanks a lot. Hope you have a good day/evening.

  Just keep in mind...

1) dry or liquid, its the same med

2) your tablet is a liquid in seconds after you swallow it.

Builder...thanks!

 

Any theories on why some people have trouble switching to liquid? I'd be interested.

[[...]]

The weight of the pill is the more accurate measure of dose.  If a pill weighs less than your average weight then it does not have 1mg K in it.  It is short by some amount.  You have four doses of .083g now, right?  So your daily weight is .332g.  That is your correct dose.  Make your total weight equal .332g.

 

I would not go back now if it were me.  In fact, I'd be thinking of going up more.

SG  thanks..and i will just make the doses add up ..i was just wondering cause when i went and tried the .05mgs and some were weighing the exact amount that i needed to cut and it kinda threw me then you said to go back to the 1mgs til i was lower due to the fact that i would be taking more since i wouldnt be cutting the pill at all since it was the weight it needed to be and i was below .05mgs per dose..

 

and why would you suggest i updose more..?? My docs would never go for that one..they dont mind that i did this this time or when i need a hold but never to go bavck up like 1/4 mgs to have to go back down that same road unless i could give them a really good reason for doing that one..

 

thanks

 

deep

 

I've come to learn that this is not about getting to zero.  It is about always feeling well.  It is not drug withdrawal, it is managing receptor function.  It is about keeping receptors functioning normally at all times so the GABA and glutamate systems do not incur further damage, while coaxing the body to add new GABA receptors.  Your doctor looks at it as drug withdrawal and dependence.  I try to never even use those words anymore.  If an updose is needed, I'd do it.

[[jr...]]

The weight of the pill is the more accurate measure of dose.  If a pill weighs less than your average weight then it does not have 1mg K in it.  It is short by some amount.  You have four doses of .083g now, right?  So your daily weight is .332g.  That is your correct dose.  Make your total weight equal .332g.

 

I would not go back now if it were me.  In fact, I'd be thinking of going up more.

SG  thanks..and i will just make the doses add up ..i was just wondering cause when i went and tried the .05mgs and some were weighing the exact amount that i needed to cut and it kinda threw me then you said to go back to the 1mgs til i was lower due to the fact that i would be taking more since i wouldnt be cutting the pill at all since it was the weight it needed to be and i was below .05mgs per dose..

 

and why would you suggest i updose more..?? My docs would never go for that one..they dont mind that i did this this time or when i need a hold but never to go bavck up like 1/4 mgs to have to go back down that same road unless i could give them a really good reason for doing that one..

 

thanks

 

deep

 

I've come to learn that this is not about getting to zero.  It is about always feeling well.  It is not drug withdrawal, it is managing receptor function.  It is about keeping receptors functioning normally at all times so the GABA and glutamate systems do not incur further damage, while coaxing the body to add new GABA receptors.  Your doctor looks at it as drug withdrawal and dependence.  I try to never even use those words anymore.  If an updose is needed, I'd do it.

 

 

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you SG!

[[bu...]]

 

SG, thanks for providing an alternative for reducing. I read too much and get anxious when I hear about other people having trouble with the liquid. Guess I need to clear my mind and dive in. Thanks a lot. Hope you have a good day/evening.

  Just keep in mind...

1) dry or liquid, its the same med

2) your tablet is a liquid in seconds after you swallow it.

Builder...thanks!

 

Any theories on why some people have trouble switching to liquid? I'd be interested.

 

Just because B follows A does not mean A caused B.  There many things, physical, emotional, environmental, etc. going on while we are tapering.  Any change in sxs could be caused by many different things...previous taper activity, other meds, diet, personal situations, etc.  And my observation here on BB strongly suggest if you expect to have difficulty, you probably will.  I'm not saying folks bad experiences aren't  real, but I'm suggesting that changing the form of your med is really not likely to cause any significant sxs.

 

As I said, 1) its the same med, and 2) a dry dose very quickly becomes liquid once its ingested anyway.  I have never been able to find any credible medical or pharmacological evidence to indicate that there should be any difference in the response to a liquid vs a dry benzo dose.

[[Le...]]

 

SG, thanks for providing an alternative for reducing. I read too much and get anxious when I hear about other people having trouble with the liquid. Guess I need to clear my mind and dive in. Thanks a lot. Hope you have a good day/evening.

  Just keep in mind...

1) dry or liquid, its the same med

2) your tablet is a liquid in seconds after you swallow it.

Builder...thanks!

 

Any theories on why some people have trouble switching to liquid? I'd be interested.

 

Just because B follows A does not mean A caused B.  There many things, physical, emotional, environmental, etc. going on while we are tapering.  Any change in sxs could be caused by many different things...previous taper activity, other meds, diet, personal situations, etc.  And my observation here on BB strongly suggest if you expect to have difficulty, you probably will. I'm not saying folks bad experiences aren't  real, but I'm suggesting that changing the form of your med is really not likely to cause any significant sxs.

 

As I said, 1) its the same med, and 2) a dry dose very quickly becomes liquid once its ingested anyway.  I have never been able to find any credible medical or pharmacological evidence to indicate that there should be any difference in the response to a liquid vs a dry benzo dose.

Yes, my thoughts can be my own worst enemy...as you already know. Gotta work on that. Thanks for your observations on the matter, Builder, I appreciate it.

[[de...]]

The weight of the pill is the more accurate measure of dose.  If a pill weighs less than your average weight then it does not have 1mg K in it.  It is short by some amount.  You have four doses of .083g now, right?  So your daily weight is .332g.  That is your correct dose.  Make your total weight equal .332g.

 

I would not go back now if it were me.  In fact, I'd be thinking of going up more.

SG  thanks..and i will just make the doses add up ..i was just wondering cause when i went and tried the .05mgs and some were weighing the exact amount that i needed to cut and it kinda threw me then you said to go back to the 1mgs til i was lower due to the fact that i would be taking more since i wouldnt be cutting the pill at all since it was the weight it needed to be and i was below .05mgs per dose..

 

and why would you suggest i updose more..?? My docs would never go for that one..they dont mind that i did this this time or when i need a hold but never to go bavck up like 1/4 mgs to have to go back down that same road unless i could give them a really good reason for doing that one..

 

thanks

 

deep

 

I've come to learn that this is not about getting to zero.  It is about always feeling well.  It is not drug withdrawal, it is managing receptor function.  It is about keeping receptors functioning normally at all times so the GABA and glutamate systems do not incur further damage, while coaxing the body to add new GABA receptors.  Your doctor looks at it as drug withdrawal and dependence.  I try to never even use those words anymore.  If an updose is needed, I'd do it.

 

SG i looked like i was reading greek..lol even after all these months i dont understand all this gaba and glutamate systems..and why do people say if you updose then you go into interdose..and i so am afraid of that but i do know my heart rate is still not getting right when i do much of anything and also today my b/p has not been really high just strange readings like 92/82 which i know the numbers are real close together then i can wait a bit and then its back to its normal 102/65..but i woke up from a nap and my heart rate this evening was 120.. i felt like i had ran a race..what is a cortisol thing?? is that where you wake up and your heart rate is rapid?

 

I can never thank you enough for always taking the time to help and you have always helped me so so much

 

deep

[[my...]]

I've come to learn that this is not about getting to zero.  It is about always feeling well.  It is not drug withdrawal, it is managing receptor function.  It is about keeping receptors functioning normally at all times so the GABA and glutamate systems do not incur further damage, while coaxing the body to add new GABA receptors.  Your doctor looks at it as drug withdrawal and dependence.  I try to never even use those words anymore.  If an updose is needed, I'd do it.

 

SG,

 

I really like what you said here.  Wisdom born through experience.  I particularly like the distinction you draw between drug withdrawal and managing receptor function. 

 

 

BTW....I got slammed with sxs within hours after writing this morning. Day 6??... a little late to the party..... Better now....oh well.  Too good to be true, right? All in all, though, better and better as the weeks and months tumble by.

 

'Night.

[[ba...]]

Builder, it's taking me forever to get my C & H to LV (here's hoping!) transitions started due to Zombie Virus and related antibiotics etc., but I'm getting there. I'm trying to channel Diaz-pam/Flipbrain/SG and YOU, and chillax.

 

It's always reassuring to hear your coherent explanations, and encouragement; I expect I'll be asking a few more questions in a while, but will try hard to 'go with the flow' . Thanks again for all you contribute to the LT/microtaper issue on here !

[[...]]

Hi SG, DP and everyone here in BB

 

I need any opinion in your own experience, Im currently on 2.3mg diazepam MT daily. .3 in the morning using LIquid diazepam oral solution and 2mg tablet in the evening. Now i nearly drop all my morning dose to 0.  In your own opinion how can I taper the 2mg left that i use to take in the evening.

can i just go all in one dose and using all liquid diazepam oral solution or split it in 2 doses liquid in the morning and 1mg tablet in the evening.  Im not sure about the changes if it reacts to my system or take all in the evening using partial liquid oral solution and tablet at the same time.

 

Im so scared for the transition and changes. Please help!! any opinion is highly appreciated.

 

thanks, MCM 

 

[[...]]

I've come to learn that this is not about getting to zero.  It is about always feeling well.  It is not drug withdrawal, it is managing receptor function.  It is about keeping receptors functioning normally at all times so the GABA and glutamate systems do not incur further damage, while coaxing the body to add new GABA receptors.  Your doctor looks at it as drug withdrawal and dependence.  I try to never even use those words anymore.  If an updose is needed, I'd do it.

SG i looked like i was reading greek..lol even after all these months i dont understand all this gaba and glutamate systems..and why do people say if you updose then you go into interdose..and i so am afraid of that but i do know my heart rate is still not getting right when i do much of anything and also today my b/p has not been really high just strange readings like 92/82 which i know the numbers are real close together then i can wait a bit and then its back to its normal 102/65..but i woke up from a nap and my heart rate this evening was 120.. i felt like i had ran a race..what is a cortisol thing?? is that where you wake up and your heart rate is rapid?

 

I can never thank you enough for always taking the time to help and you have always helped me so so much

 

deep

 

There seem to be two types of damage.  One is GABA down-regulation - everyone who experiences symptoms has this.  The drug has caused you to have fewer GABA receptors.  This is the basic problem common to everyone here, and a careful taper can restore them.

 

The second type of damage is from being too short of benzo.  It happens when you short yourself so much that the neuron can no longer handle it.  I don't fully understand what happens, but the end result is thought to be a long-term problem in the glutamate system.  This damage is avoidable and it should be the aim of all tapers to do just that.  I'd say 95% of the people here do not manage to avoid this type of damage (including me) and they get stuck with long-lasting symptoms during and after the taper.  This is a shame as it does not have to happen.

[[de...]]

SG thank you for explaining that..so now how do i explain this to both my doctors and get them on board..and how much do i updose to..back to 2mgs which would put me at 2mgs again?? I trust your advice and instincts..but if i updose that much why do people say that can cause interdose to hit even worse or you can get them and never recover..is this known to be true..i have to get some relief from this heart rate issue so i can function..

 

thanks again

 

deep

[[...]]

SG thank you for explaining that..so now how do i explain this to both my doctors and get them on board..and how much do i updose to..back to 2mgs which would put me at 2mgs again?? I trust your advice and instincts..but if i updose that much why do people say that can cause interdose to hit even worse or you can get them and never recover..is this known to be true..i have to get some relief from this heart rate issue so i can function..

 

thanks again

 

deep

 

I think you hit on the key question: "Is this known to be true?"  I think word of mouth, fear, assumptions, and on and on add up to a boatload of crap that needs to be cut through.  It's important to remain skeptical of everything you hear.

 

I don't know how to make a doctor understand.  I see detox centers - whose business it is to get this right - screw it up royally as a way of life.  It is their livelihood yet they are all in the stone age.  You could try to show them the research posts by Perseverance, but my experience is most doctors are not willing to learn from a patient.  And as soon as they here "internet" they close their mind.

 

How much to updose?  IDK.  We've talked through this so I won't repeat it.  What I know is you went up 10% last Saturday and it seemed to help a little.  I also hear you still saying things like "I need relief."  So it seems like things are still bad enough to think about updosing more.  I don't like advising people to do this as it doesn't always help, but sometimes the risk is worth it if things are intolerable.

[[...]]

I've come to learn that this is not about getting to zero.  It is about always feeling well.  It is not drug withdrawal, it is managing receptor function.  It is about keeping receptors functioning normally at all times so the GABA and glutamate systems do not incur further damage, while coaxing the body to add new GABA receptors.  Your doctor looks at it as drug withdrawal and dependence.  I try to never even use those words anymore.  If an updose is needed, I'd do it.

 

SG,

 

I really like what you said here.  Wisdom born through experience.  I particularly like the distinction you draw between drug withdrawal and managing receptor function. 

 

 

BTW....I got slammed with sxs within hours after writing this morning. Day 6??... a little late to the party..... Better now....oh well.  Too good to be true, right? All in all, though, better and better as the weeks and months tumble by.

 

'Night.

 

Okay, so that fits in and makes sense.  Your lag time is ~6 days.  You don't want to microtaper so I'd encourage you to reduce your cut size...maybe give 2.5% a try.  The hit intensity should be less and the time to your next cut will be shorter.  Instead of 10 days it will be more like five.  Overall it will not affect your rate much one way or the other.

 

Yes, from what I've gathered over time, I now see it as two types of damage.  One can be turned on and off and covered by the drug, the other can't.  It's the second type that are the nasty ones, but they are avoidable.

[[li...]]

If you read my signature you know I'm kindled. Was forced back on Ativan in 2014--1 mg and quickly tapered to hell halfway in six weeks. Found a group that said to updose to get stable and microtaper with liquid. . I did around 2 mg and then doc had me cross over to 1 mg klonopin last summer for taper. Felt like crap but was able to still do some work from home and function at 50% while tapering 5% a month. By August had significantly increased symptoms (never held all summer) so decided to hold. After five days was recommended to updose to 1.25 instead of holding more because "you're just sensitizing yourself more. So I updose to 1.25 mg in September and day 21-26 I felt functional in the afternoon. Started a 1% taper and almost immediately started losing stability. Powered through with only a couple days of holds until mid January when I was frantic/psychotic. I finally held for a week and the brain stuff got better though I felt sicker physically

 

So beginning of February restarted 1% taper with holds every week to see if that would help. It seemed like I was getting a tiny bit better every day. Then started deteriorating again from stress and first of March hurt my back. I truly feel weaker and more sensitized AFTER THE UPDOSE. A benzo friend led me to a thread here that talked about people doing long holds to stabilize despite feeling like they needed to updose-I've read stories of 2, 3, 6, 12 months and I'm on day 24 and am not getting better. Granted the visits to the chiro that my husband took me to last week were very strenuous (major deep tissue massage) so combined with the pain my brain and CNS are not happy. I just am afraid I can't win at this.

 

What is the consensus here on long holds?  Other long holders said they didn't feel stable until at least 2-3 months but I live in fear of tolerance withdrawal. Just feel so brain and body damaged. Just want to get back to baseline--on the couch all morning, then able to shower, eat, walk the dog 15 minutes, do a couple hous of work and drive myself to the store. My stabilized baseline was much better than that. Thanks to anyone who can weigh in.

[[...]]

Hi SG, DP and everyone here in BB

 

I need any opinion in your own experience, Im currently on 2.3mg diazepam MT daily. .3 in the morning using LIquid diazepam oral solution and 2mg tablet in the evening. Now i nearly drop all my morning dose to 0.  In your own opinion how can I taper the 2mg left that i use to take in the evening.

can i just go all in one dose and using all liquid diazepam oral solution or split it in 2 doses liquid in the morning and 1mg tablet in the evening.  Im not sure about the changes if it reacts to my system or take all in the evening using partial liquid oral solution and tablet at the same time.

 

Im so scared for the transition and changes. Please help!! any opinion is highly appreciated.

 

thanks, MCM

 

You seem to be doing okay on one dose.  If so, I would not change that.  The switch to all liquid might cause symptoms, but it should be temporary.  Another option is to split your pill and do 1mg dry and 1mg wet.  Just make sure to use the other half of the same pill the next day.

[[...]]

If you read my signature you know I'm kindled. Was forced back on Ativan in 2014--1 mg and quickly tapered to hell halfway in six weeks. Found a group that said to updose to get stable and microtaper with liquid. . I did around 2 mg and then doc had me cross over to 1 mg klonopin last summer for taper. Felt like crap but was able to still do some work from home and function at 50% while tapering 5% a month. By August had significantly increased symptoms (never held all summer) so decided to hold. After five days was recommended to updose to 1.25 instead of holding more because "you're just sensitizing yourself more. So I updose to 1.25 mg in September and day 21-26 I felt functional in the afternoon. Started a 1% taper and almost immediately started losing stability. Powered through with only a couple days of holds until mid January when I was frantic/psychotic. I finally held for a week and the brain stuff got better though I felt sicker physically

 

So beginning of February restarted 1% taper with holds every week to see if that would help. It seemed like I was getting a tiny bit better every day. Then started deteriorating again from stress and first of March hurt my back. I truly feel weaker and more sensitized AFTER THE UPDOSE. A benzo friend led me to a thread here that talked about people doing long holds to stabilize despite feeling like they needed to updose-I've read stories of 2, 3, 6, 12 months and I'm on day 24 and am not getting better. Granted the visits to the chiro that my husband took me to last week were very strenuous (major deep tissue massage) so combined with the pain my brain and CNS are not happy. I just am afraid I can't win at this.

 

What is the consensus here on long holds?  Other long holders said they didn't feel stable until at least 2-3 months but I live in fear of tolerance withdrawal. Just feel so brain and body damaged. Just want to get back to baseline--on the couch all morning, then able to shower, eat, walk the dog 15 minutes, do a couple hous of work and drive myself to the store. My stabilized baseline was much better than that. Thanks to anyone who can weigh in.

 

I like the idea of a long hold for your case.  It seems like even very slow reduction is increasing your symptoms.  One thing I think we can count on is that the body is always working on fixing things so the hold time should help.  If you do taper I'd do a daily microtaper and begin extremely gently...maybe 1-2% a month...and hold at the first sign of symptom increase.  I think that is the key - never accept symptom increase.

[[li...]]

Thanks--that's what I was doing before my hold--1% with holds. I hope it's not too late because I did accept symotom increase and it still feels worse by the day even in the hold but I was naive to think you pull out of horrid stuff by just holding a couple of days. Praying that this long hold will stabilize me because there's nothing left in the toolbox to try. Thanks!!

[Guest [ba...]]

What is the consensus here on long holds?  Other long holders said they didn't feel stable until at least 2-3 months but I live in fear of tolerance withdrawal. Just feel so brain and body damaged. Just want to get back to baseline--on the couch all morning, then able to shower, eat, walk the dog 15 minutes, do a couple hous of work and drive myself to the store. My stabilized baseline was much better than that. Thanks to anyone who can weigh in.

 

Hold as long as you need to hold.  Don't do cuts unless you feel up to doing cuts (no "powering through"*).  Never up-dose unless a doctor orders you to.  There is no need to fear tolerance withdrawal.  If you are tapering and experiencing symptoms, you're probably past tolerance withdrawal.

 

[* yes, there are a few people who are able to power through, but in my experience here, those people are fighting more physical symptoms and fewer psychological/emotional symptoms.  I'm sure there are a few exceptions.]

[[jr...]]

What is the consensus here on long holds?  Other long holders said they didn't feel stable until at least 2-3 months but I live in fear of tolerance withdrawal. Just feel so brain and body damaged. Just want to get back to baseline--on the couch all morning, then able to shower, eat, walk the dog 15 minutes, do a couple hous of work and drive myself to the store. My stabilized baseline was much better than that. Thanks to anyone who can weigh in.

 

Hold as long as you need to hold.  Don't do cuts unless you feel up to doing cuts (no "powering through"*).  Never up-dose unless a doctor orders you to.  There is no need to fear tolerance withdrawal.  If you are tapering and experiencing symptoms, you're probably past tolerance withdrawal.

 

[* yes, there are a few people who are able to power through, but in my experience here, those people are fighting more physical symptoms and fewer psychological/emotional symptoms.  I'm sure there are a few exceptions.]

 

I agree with Bad. Hold as long as you need to. I am not opposed to a slight updose if needed. you can see from my sig that I have updosed at times. Tolerance withdrawal affects very few people. If you are tapering, you are having withdrawals and a long hold may be the best answer at this time.

[[li...]]

Thanks everyone!!!  Just felt like such a loser tapering at 1% a month total daily microtaper and still getting worse. Praying this hold stabilized me to being functional like I was for five days when I started this round of tapering. I start to think things like "maybe I feel like hell because my body hates this drug" but I was fairly stable last September

[[my...]]

Interesting, SG.  I'm feeling OK today...but I will think about the 2.5% every 5 days.  I appreciate the feedback. 

[[ar...]]

I'll be holding at 0.36ml.  The last few days in the evenings I get headaches, tight scalp muscles, tight forehead muscles and mild nausea.  The tight muscles on my forehead makes it feel like pressure between my eyes and on the bridge of my nose.  It feels like someone is pinching my nose or pressing in between my eyes...lol

 

I feel decent during the day.