Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[...]]

.172g/mg, so...

 

5% - 1.838mg=.316g (.079g x4)

10% - 1.925mg=.331g (.083g x4)

15% - 2.012mg=.346g (.087g x4)

20% - 2.100mg=.362g (.090g x4)

25% - 2.188mg=.376g (.094g x4)

 

Each 5% is .004g more per dose.  I am leaving for the day to help my son find an apartment.  Good luck with this.

 

 

SG I now have a problem..i updosed the 10% i should have started out with the 5% dont know what i was thinking but have been at that amount since my second dose on saturday..i am a bit better..heart rate still goes to 120 if i stand up and walk very far and just dont feel right at all..but now my problem is if i cut one pill in half i have used all the ones that weighed over 168gms in my bottle..i am left with ones weighing .167 or less and if i cut them in half that would make me take 2mgs a day again that would be an increase of 1/4 mgs an i just cant go back to there..so what can i do? any suggestion would be appreciated..i didnt think about that when i updosed on saturday or i would have done the 5% first it sure seems like i am really going the wrong way..

 

thanks

 

deep

 

You have the drug, it's just not convenient.  Add any missing weight from a small chip of another pill to make the weight right.

[[ol...]]

I know I asked this last year but I forgot. What are the lines in between the mls?  .1 or.01 or .001 ? How much should I remove each day?

[[...]]

SG, Bads,

I'm confused about some of the micro tapering details. My brain is on strike and I'm very OCD so I apologize for all the questions.   

 

I'll use 2ml PG to dissolve 2mg Valium in 98ml water for a 1:100 solution. Does the water need to be distilled/purified? Do you refrigerate the solution or can you keep it on the counter? How long will a batch *keep*?

 

Just use room temp or lukewarm water.  It does not need to be purified.  Temperature does affect solubility...warmer will dissolve more.  As we don't have accurate info I would not refrigerate.  As for how long, again we don't do testing so I'd keep it short...a few days.

 

I currently dose 5mg of Valium 3xs a day using 2mg pills. Once I start MT I thought I would reduce 1mg from the afternoon dose, then 1mg from the am dose, then 1mg from the pm dose.  Does this sound like a good plan?

 

I'd cut all doses at once, but rotating through them day by day will work.  Try to keep them close to even.

 

I'm extremely sensitive to cuts. My last cut from 15.25mg to 15mg caused horrible sxs (2% cut). I've been holding for a little over 4 months and it's helped me stabilize a bit. I was thinking of reducing by 2.5 ml a day which is pretty conservative at my dose. Do you think that's a good starting point?

 

mls are not mgs, but I assume you mean a 2mg=100ml liquid? 2.5mls would be .05mg a day and 1.5mg a month.  That's 10% a month and should be okay.

 

I know some people incorporate holds into their daily taper. Is this a good idea? How will I know when to hold?

 

Holds are always fine.  Do them whenever you want.  But the way I look at it, planned holds with a daily taper are just an inefficient way to do a lower cut rate.  Let's say you cut .05mg a day and decided to hold two days a week too. After a week you've cut .25mg...five .05mg cuts and two holds.  You can do the same thing and be a bit gentler on yourself by cutting .036mg a day and not holding at all. This is always true.  Daily cutting is always the gentlest way to reduce for a given rate.  It is the ramp path and that is the path that lets the drug work for you the most efficiently.  It keeps the drug in your body longest to help you.

 

I'm really, really sorry for all the questions. I'm doing this taper on my own, my brain is in   mode, and I don't want to mess this up. Any and all advice is greatly appreciated. 

Left

 

SG, I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by cutting all three doses at once..how would I accurately split the 2mg pills...would I have to spread the liquid out between the three doses...

 

I got the solution wrong... i meant to say 2mg Valium in a total 200 ml solution...not 100, sorry.. which would be a 1:100 ratio...is that correct? Based on the corrected solution ratio what do you think would be a good starting taper rate?

 

Your reasoning on holds while doing a daily taper make sense. I guess it will take a bit of experimenting to figure out the best rate for my body.

 

Thanks for your help and patience.

 

2mg in 200ml is .01mg/ml so 2.5ml is .025mg and would be 5% a month.  That's very conservative.  You can likely do more, but it is a gentle rate if you want to go with it.

 

15mg and three doses, so each dose is 5mg.  If you have 2mg pills, each dose would be two 2mg pills plus 1mg (100ml) wet.  To cut all three doses at once use 300mls (3mg) and take your cut from this before you split it into three even doses.  Eyeball them even on the counter.

[[jr...]]

It is possible that cold temperatures could cause some of the drug to precipitate out.  I would suggest letting the liquid come to room temperature before measuring a dose if you do refrigerate it.  Also, make sure to shake the liquid before measuring a dose regardless if you refrigerate or not.  I see no reason to refrigerate it though.

 

Anne

 

Thank you for the reply. makes sense.

[[jr...]]

as a matter of info, I have stored my xanax doses in plastic juice bottles in the fridge for a good while. early in my taper, I crushed my xanax into powder and weighed my doses into a plastic bottle. I added about 10ml water and kept in the fridge. since I have started a LT, I have been keeping my doses in the fridge in the same plastic juice bottles. I have mixed up a 30 day supply of meds. Do you think that is too long to keep the mixture of .005mg/ml??? please let me know your thoughts before I get too far in . should I not use the plastic bottles for storing my doses?

 

Xanax, like most benzos, is not very soluble in water.  The reported solubility of xanax is 0.04 mg/ml at neutral pH, but it would probably take a fair amount of time and work to reach that solubility.  Diluting first in alcohol or PG gets it into solution faster, but it is still only barely soluble in water.  If you're well under the 0.04 mg/ml concentration, it should remain in solution in water for a while.  How long??  I don't know.  I have not seen any studies on this except that there is a tendency for the drug to absorb into plastics over time.  The concern there was that an unsuspecting person could receive xanax if they drank out of a plastic container that was used to store a xanax solution.  Clearly, some measurable amount associates with plastics.  How much??  I have no idea.  I'm not saying that you should change what you're doing if it's working for you.  However, I find it interesting that people are very concerned about dry weight differences of 2-3% but have no idea how much of the drug is being lost in aqueous solutions during storage.

 

Xanax (and other benzo) solutions should probably should be stored in glass if they are stored.

 

Thanks for the info. much appreciated.

[[bu...]]

 

 

.  Diluting first in alcohol or PG gets it into solution faster, but it is still only barely soluble in water.  If you're well under the 0.04 mg/ml concentration, it should remain in solution in water for a while.  How long??  I don't know.  I have not seen any studies on this except that there is a tendency for the drug to absorb into plastics over time. 

 

Xanax (and other benzo) solutions should probably should be stored in glass if they are stored.

 

 

The only "plastic" that has been shown to be affected by benzos is polyvinyl chloride (PVC).  This is a plastic commonly used in the delivery tubes for IV delivery.  PVC would rarely, if ever, be used to mfg plastic bottles.

 

FWIW, Roxane's Diazepam Oral Solution (a PG solvent, water-diluted liquid V) is packaged by the mfgr in a plastic (high density polyethelyne HDPE).  It has a 3 years shelf life in the original HDPE container.

[[jr...]]

 

 

.  Diluting first in alcohol or PG gets it into solution faster, but it is still only barely soluble in water.  If you're well under the 0.04 mg/ml concentration, it should remain in solution in water for a while.  How long??  I don't know.  I have not seen any studies on this except that there is a tendency for the drug to absorb into plastics over time. 

 

Xanax (and other benzo) solutions should probably should be stored in glass if they are stored.

 

 

 

 

The only "plastic" that has been shown to be affected by benzos is polyvinyl chloride (PVC).  This is a plastic commonly used in the delivery tubes for IV delivery.  PVC would rarely, if ever, be used to mfg plastic bottles.

 

FWIW, Roxane's Diazepam Oral Solution (a PG solvent, water-diluted liquid V) is packaged by the mfgr in a plastic (high density polyethelyne HDPE).  It has a 3 years shelf life in the original HDPE container.

 

 

More good info. thanks builder. I am not going to refrigerate my doses and continue with the plastic bottles for now. I hope it does not get me into a pinch somewhere down the road.Thanks to all of you for the support.

[Guest [ba...]]

The only "plastic" that has been shown to be affected by benzos is polyvinyl chloride (PVC).  This is a plastic commonly used in the delivery tubes for IV delivery.  PVC would rarely, if ever, be used to mfg plastic bottles.

 

FWIW, Roxane's Diazepam Oral Solution (a PG solvent, water-diluted liquid V) is packaged by the mfgr in a plastic (high density polyethelyne HDPE).  It has a 3 years shelf life in the original HDPE container.

 

So if your cup or bottle has a '3' on the bottom (for vinyl), don't use it.  Other plastics may be better.

 

fwiw - Roxane's formulation appears to contain alcohol (19%) and polyethylene glycol (in addition to propylene glycol).  The solubility of diazepam in that solution is much higher than in 2% alcohol, 98% water.  So there is much less tendency for the drug to seek out a better chemical environment (in a plastic).  I have no concerns when people use high ratios of alcohol or PG to water.  My only concern is the stability of the emulsion upon extended storage in solutions that are essentially aqueous.  I do a lot of work with carotenoids (pigments found in ripe chile peppers).  They adhere tenaciously to many plastics including polyethylene/polypropylene.  They're highly visible so I see it easily.  It's not the same molecule, but it shares many similarities with respect to its solubility.  If I still had any benzos kicking around, I'd do a few tests to look at the fate of benzo emulsions.  Alas, I throw the last of mine away about two years ago.

[[bu...]]

The only "plastic" that has been shown to be affected by benzos is polyvinyl chloride (PVC).  This is a plastic commonly used in the delivery tubes for IV delivery.  PVC would rarely, if ever, be used to mfg plastic bottles.

 

FWIW, Roxane's Diazepam Oral Solution (a PG solvent, water-diluted liquid V) is packaged by the mfgr in a plastic (high density polyethelyne HDPE).  It has a 3 years shelf life in the original HDPE container.

 

So if your cup or bottle has a '3' on the bottom (for vinyl), don't use it.  Other plastics may be better.

 

fwiw -  Roxane's formulation appears to contain alcohol (19%) and polyethylene glycol (in addition to propylene glycol).The solubility of diazepam in that solution is much higher than in 2% alcohol, 98% water.  So there is much less tendency for the drug to seek out a better chemical environment (in a plastic).  I have no concerns when people use high ratios of alcohol or PG to water.  My only concern is the stability of the emulsion upon extended storage in solutions that are essentially aqueous.  I do a lot of work with carotenoids (pigments found in ripe chile peppers).  They adhere tenaciously to many plastics including polyethylene/polypropylene.  They're highly visible so I see it easily.  It's not the same molecule, but it shares many similarities with respect to its solubility.  If I still had any benzos kicking around, I'd do a few tests to look at the fate of benzo emulsions.  Alas, I throw the last of mine away about two years ago.

  Please note that Roxane makes 2 different liquid V  products.  Diazepam Oral Solution 5mg=5ml is a PG solvent dilute formulation.  Diazepam Intensol 5ml=1ml is the 19% alcohol product.

[[ol...]]

I know I asked this last year but I forgot. What are the lines in between the mls?  .1 or.01 or .001 ? How much should I remove each day?

 

 

 

Giving this a bump so I can try liquid again 

[[...]]

I know I asked this last year but I forgot. What are the lines in between the mls?  .1 or.01 or .001 ? How much should I remove each day?

 

 

 

Giving this a bump so I can try liquid again 

 

On a 1ml syringe if there are 100 lines each is .01ml; if there are 50 lines, each is .02ml.

[[ol...]]

How about a 10 ml syringe?  What should I remove each day?  Thanks!!

[[...]]

How about a 10 ml syringe?  What should I remove each day?  Thanks!!

 

Count the lines.  100 divides 10ml into .1ml increments; 50 divides it into .2ml.  Liquid volume is not mgs of drug.  To know that you need to know the strength of the drug in the liquid.

[[jr...]]

The diazepam/PG diluted solution does NOT need to be refrigerated.

 

In fact, the mfgr of Diazepam Oral Solution (a PG based water diluted RX liquid V) specifically states their product should be stored at 59F to 86F, but protected from light.

 

I often made enough dilute batch to keep up to 2 weeks.  Even your home-brewed PG solution will be stable, and non-perishable.

 

builder, what do you think the dilute life is of Xanax? diluted .5mg/5ml etoh and 95 ml water

[[bu...]]

The diazepam/PG diluted solution does NOT need to be refrigerated.

 

In fact, the mfgr of Diazepam Oral Solution (a PG based water diluted RX liquid V) specifically states their product should be stored at 59F to 86F, but protected from light.

 

I often made enough dilute batch to keep up to 2 weeks.  Even your home-brewed PG solution will be stable, and non-perishable.

 

builder, what do you think the dilute life is of Xanax? diluted .5mg/5ml etoh and 95 ml water

 

 

xanax is an extremely stable compound...its actual shelf life would be measured in years! Dissolving and diluting it only changes its physical form (from powder to liquid), it does NOT change its chemical structure.  You can certainly mix and store a 2 week supply with no problem.

 

The shelf life limitation of home brew liquids has very little to do with the stability of the original med, but a lot to do with the conditions under which your liquid is prepared.  If you made your batch under "lab" conditions, the storage life would probably still be measured in years (Rx liquid benzos have multi-year shelf lives)  However, your homebrew can be contaminated by impurities in the tap water, residues from soaps, detergents, and other cleaning solvents used to maintain your equipment, etc.

 

If you use reasonable care in preparing and storing your liquid benzo, a 10day-2 week supply should never be a problem.  But becasue of the less-than-perfect prep and storage environment you will have at home, don't expect it to keep for months or years.

[[jr...]]

The diazepam/PG diluted solution does NOT need to be refrigerated.

 

In fact, the mfgr of Diazepam Oral Solution (a PG based water diluted RX liquid V) specifically states their product should be stored at 59F to 86F, but protected from light.

 

I often made enough dilute batch to keep up to 2 weeks.  Even your home-brewed PG solution will be stable, and non-perishable.

 

builder, what do you think the dilute life is of Xanax? diluted .5mg/5ml etoh and 95 ml water

 

 

xanax is an extremely stable compound...its actual shelf life would be measured in years! Dissolving and diluting it only changes its physical form (from powder to liquid), it does NOT change its chemical structure.  You can certainly mix and store a 2 week supply with no problem.

 

The shelf life limitation of home brew liquids has very little to do with the stability of the original med, but a lot to do with the conditions under which your liquid is prepared.  If you made your batch under "lab" conditions, the storage life would probably still be measured in years (Rx liquid benzos have multi-year shelf lives)  However, your homebrew can be contaminated by impurities in the tap water, residues from soaps, detergents, and other cleaning solvents used to maintain your equipment, etc.

 

If you use reasonable care in preparing and storing your liquid benzo, a 10day-2 week supply should never be a problem.  But becasue of the less-than-perfect prep and storage environment you will have at home, don't expect it to keep for months or years.

 

Thanks. that is reassuring to say the least. I think to be on the safe side, I will dilute .25mg into 50ml water/etoh. drawing out 15ml per day, that will give me a 3 day supply. I will ditch the rest and make a new batch. Thanks to you,anne and Sg , and all the others who offer support on here I may be able to make it to zero and jump off

[[my...]]

Hi all, especially SG...

Just checking in....I'm continuing to do alright with 5% every ten days although last time I held for several extra days b/c of travel.  Back home and in day 6 of this cut and have felt.....nothing....what's up with that? I know I should count my blessings and just experience some relief for a change but it makes me think either I could go faster or cut more.  Talk me down!!! I know if I go faster it will come back to bite me.  The increased strain on my battered CNS would not be worth it in the long run....right??

 

P.S.

When I wrote "nothing" I meant no more than the usual/occasional muscle tension and some ear stuff.

[[...]]

Hi all, especially SG...

Just checking in....I'm continuing to do alright with 5% every ten days although last time I held for several extra days b/c of travel.  Back home and in day 6 of this cut and have felt.....nothing....what's up with that? I know I should count my blessings and just experience some relief for a change but it makes me think either I could go faster or cut more.  Talk me down!!! I know if I go faster it will come back to bite me.  The increased strain on my battered CNS would not be worth it in the long run....right??

 

P.S.

When I wrote "nothing" I meant no more than the usual/occasional muscle tension and some ear stuff.

 

I wouldn't place my bets on the fact that you can go faster as you go lower, that's for sure.  I don't know why the cut is not registering after six days if it always has in the past.  Symptoms are a sign your CNS is struggling and the fact that you are doing better means you are doing something right.  Keep reminding yourself that the goal is to feel well, not get to zero.  Zero will eventually come.

[[my...]]

Thanks SG    :thumbsup:

[Guest [ba...]]

Please note that Roxane makes 2 different liquid V  products.  Diazepam Oral Solution 5mg=5ml is a PG solvent dilute formulation.  Diazepam Intensol 5ml=1ml is the 19% alcohol product.

 

 

I do not see any useful information on this product other than it contains propylene glycol and polyethylene glycol 1000.  Both of these will enhance solubility, but I cannot find how much PG or PEG is in the liquid.  Do you know?? 

 

There is a paper describing various ratios of PG, PEG and water for diazepam (and klonopin) solubility (http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0352-5139/2014/0352-51391300079B.pdf).  At water concentrations below 40% (remainder is PG and/or PEG), concentrations of 1 mg/ml (0.0035M) are possible for diazepam.  Water must be below 30% for klonopin.  While I do not know the exact formulation of Roxane's liquid, it must contain a fairly small amount of water (<< 50%).  Again, I don't question that solutions high in alcohol and/or PG and/or PEG can stably solubilize diazepam.  I just worry about storage in 98% aqueous solutions. 

[[bu...]]

I recall finding a more detailed  breakdown of the Roxane solutions, but the last several times I searched, I was not successful.

 

The info is out there somewhere.

[[de...]]

.172g/mg, so...

 

5% - 1.838mg=.316g (.079g x4)

10% - 1.925mg=.331g (.083g x4)

15% - 2.012mg=.346g (.087g x4)

20% - 2.100mg=.362g (.090g x4)

25% - 2.188mg=.376g (.094g x4)

 

Each 5% is .004g more per dose.  I am leaving for the day to help my son find an apartment.  Good luck with this.

 

 

SG I now have a problem..i updosed the 10% i should have started out with the 5% dont know what i was thinking but have been at that amount since my second dose on saturday..i am a bit better..heart rate still goes to 120 if i stand up and walk very far and just dont feel right at all..but now my problem is if i cut one pill in half i have used all the ones that weighed over 168gms in my bottle..i am left with ones weighing .167 or less and if i cut them in half that would make me take 2mgs a day again that would be an increase of 1/4 mgs an i just cant go back to there..so what can i do? any suggestion would be appreciated..i didnt think about that when i updosed on saturday or i would have done the 5% first it sure seems like i am really going the wrong way..

 

thanks

 

deep

 

You have the drug, it's just not convenient.  Add any missing weight from a small chip of another pill to make the weight right.

 

 

SG I understand about the weight...my concern is if the pill weighs .166 gms then i would need the whole thing to make 2 doses and what i am saying is that would up my dose to 2mgs ...and if i added another piece cause the 1mg didnt weigh enough theres still 1mg of k in it so then i would be over 2mgs a day in that scenario..is there any way i can maybe back off already since i should have tried the 5 % first or since i have done that since saturday morning am i kinda stuck here as of now??

 

thanks as always for your help

 

 

deep

[[Le...]]

2mg in 200ml is .01mg/ml so 2.5ml is .025mg and would be 5% a month.  That's very conservative.  You can likely do more, but it is a gentle rate if you want to go with it.

 

15mg and three doses, so each dose is 5mg.  If you have 2mg pills, each dose would be two 2mg pills plus 1mg (100ml) wet.  To cut all three doses at once use 300mls (3mg) and take your cut from this before you split it into three even doses.  Eyeball them even on the counter.

 

 

SG. I don't know how I'll react to the liquid solution so not sure I want to liquify 3mg. I thought most people liquify and MT from 1mg at a time...or does it depend on the person? 

 

Sorry for all the questions and thanks for all of your help,  Left

[[...]]

2mg in 200ml is .01mg/ml so 2.5ml is .025mg and would be 5% a month.  That's very conservative.  You can likely do more, but it is a gentle rate if you want to go with it.

 

15mg and three doses, so each dose is 5mg.  If you have 2mg pills, each dose would be two 2mg pills plus 1mg (100ml) wet.  To cut all three doses at once use 300mls (3mg) and take your cut from this before you split it into three even doses.  Eyeball them even on the counter.

SG. I don't know how I'll react to the liquid solution so not sure I want to liquify 3mg. I thought most people liquify and MT from 1mg at a time...or does it depend on the person? 

 

Sorry for all the questions and thanks for all of your help,  Left

 

Some people liquify the entire dose.  It's a preference and not really important.  I always try to use the smallest number of whole pills and not split pills.  If you want to do 1mg wet and 14mg dry the doses go unbalanced a little and you'd need to remember to use the other half of the same pill the next day.  Doses would be...

 

AM: 5mg dry+.333mg (33.3ml) wet

Aft: 5mg dry+.333mg (33.3ml) wet

PM: 4mg dry+.333mg (33.3ml) wet

 

You'd then cut from Am and Aft doses to bring them even or just let them be unbalanced.  It's a lot cleaner and easier to liquify 3mg.  It's only 20% of your dose.

[[...]]

You have the drug, it's just not convenient.  Add any missing weight from a small chip of another pill to make the weight right.

SG I understand about the weight...my concern is if the pill weighs .166 gms then i would need the whole thing to make 2 doses and what i am saying is that would up my dose to 2mgs ...and if i added another piece cause the 1mg didnt weigh enough theres still 1mg of k in it so then i would be over 2mgs a day in that scenario..is there any way i can maybe back off already since i should have tried the 5 % first or since i have done that since saturday morning am i kinda stuck here as of now??

 

thanks as always for your help

 

 

deep

 

The weight of the pill is the more accurate measure of dose.  If a pill weighs less than your average weight then it does not have 1mg K in it.  It is short by some amount.  You have four doses of .083g now, right?  So your daily weight is .332g.  That is your correct dose.  Make your total weight equal .332g.

 

I would not go back now if it were me.  In fact, I'd be thinking of going up more.