Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[St...]]

ok, thanks...I'll try to make it another week and see if things change, did it change gradually, or did you just feel it happened fast...sorry, so many questions,  just wondering....

[[jr...]]

It happened in one day. I felt terrible that morning but by evening it was ok. also done a updose when switching. that was the 4 doses to 5 doses

[[St...]]

ok, thanks....I feel better every other day sorta, crazy thing....!  I have been advised to start tapering slowly from a facebook page, that I might be in tolerance to this dose, so going to try that I guess...

 

[[Kg...]]

Stella IMHO I don't think it is wise to start tapering yet - I would do as you said and hold another week and then  if you are still not doing well just go back to the pills and do as JR said - though the scale is harder and less accurate it is doable so don't worry you will be able to do small cuts one way or another.

[[an...]]

Stella,

 

I agree with Kgirl.  It would not be wise to taper now.  If you do go back to the dry cutting, just weigh out the amount that you were using before. 

 

Anne

[[St...]]

I was told my nervous system might have healed to the point I am at right now, and to try .001 every three days, and see if that works, it might even help....I haven't improved at all, but haven't really gotten worse this last week either.  staying the same bad sorta, you really think a slow small taper would hurt?  Holding sure isn't helping me at all, it does feel like tolerance...Holding long has never ever helped me, not when I was dry cutting, and now with this LT. 

[[jr...]]

if your cns has healed to the point you are right now, then would you have sxs?the beauty of a LT is that you can make cuts as small as .01ml. hope that helps you so you can stabilize

[Guest [ba...]]

Any time that you change drugs or formulations it can take some time (and require some adjustments).  The typical Ashton crossover takes 2 months - and that's if everything works well.

 

Personally, I think the fewer changes one makes, the better. 

 

[[St...]]

sooooo, are you in agreement Badsicref, about not starting to gently taper yet, I am in agreement with you about not changing things around a lot, sorta wish I had just stayed dry cutting, but I am here now, and quite afraid of going back to dry cutting, because again, it is another change.  I will need to cut sometime for sure, can't stay at this dose...thanks!

 

[Guest [ba...]]

I wouldn't cut until you are stable.  Then I'd only cut if you feel OK.  Too many people try to power through bad symptoms and most of the time they suffer.

 

It doesn't make a lot of sense intuitively why some people have such a different experience when all they do is liquify their dose, but you're not the first person to have reported difficulties doing so. Hopefully, things improve for you soon.

 

fwiw - I don't think the inaccuracy of dry cutting is all that bad compared with LT.  The weighing error for the huge majority of the taper is very small.  Only at the very end do the errors get more significant, and most people are ready to jump by then.

[[St...]]

Thank you to all of you  for your replies.....

[[Le...]]

SG, Bads,

I'm confused about some of the micro tapering details. My brain is on strike and I'm very OCD so I apologize for all the questions.   

 

I'll use 2ml PG to dissolve 2mg Valium in 98ml water for a 1:100 solution. Does the water need to be distilled/purified? Do you refrigerate the solution or can you keep it on the counter? How long will a batch *keep*?

 

I currently dose 5mg of Valium 3xs a day using 2mg pills. Once I start MT I thought I would reduce 1mg from the afternoon dose, then 1mg from the am dose, then 1mg from the pm dose.  Does this sound like a good plan? 

 

I'm extremely sensitive to cuts. My last cut from 15.25mg to 15mg caused horrible sxs (2% cut). I've been holding for a little over 4 months and it's helped me stabilize a bit. I was thinking of reducing by 2.5 ml a day which is pretty conservative at my dose. Do you think that's a good starting point?

 

I know some people incorporate holds into their daily taper. Is this a good idea? How will I know when to hold? 

 

I'm really, really sorry for all the questions. I'm doing this taper on my own, my brain is in   mode, and I don't want to mess this up. Any and all advice is greatly appreciated. 

Left

[[...]]

SG, Bads,

I'm confused about some of the micro tapering details. My brain is on strike and I'm very OCD so I apologize for all the questions.   

 

I'll use 2ml PG to dissolve 2mg Valium in 98ml water for a 1:100 solution. Does the water need to be distilled/purified? Do you refrigerate the solution or can you keep it on the counter? How long will a batch *keep*?

 

Just use room temp or lukewarm water.  It does not need to be purified.  Temperature does affect solubility...warmer will dissolve more.  As we don't have accurate info I would not refrigerate.  As for how long, again we don't do testing so I'd keep it short...a few days.

 

I currently dose 5mg of Valium 3xs a day using 2mg pills. Once I start MT I thought I would reduce 1mg from the afternoon dose, then 1mg from the am dose, then 1mg from the pm dose.  Does this sound like a good plan?

 

I'd cut all doses at once, but rotating through them day by day will work.  Try to keep them close to even.

 

I'm extremely sensitive to cuts. My last cut from 15.25mg to 15mg caused horrible sxs (2% cut). I've been holding for a little over 4 months and it's helped me stabilize a bit. I was thinking of reducing by 2.5 ml a day which is pretty conservative at my dose. Do you think that's a good starting point?

 

mls are not mgs, but I assume you mean a 2mg=100ml liquid?  2.5mls would be .05mg a day and 1.5mg a month.  That's 10% a month and should be okay.

 

I know some people incorporate holds into their daily taper. Is this a good idea? How will I know when to hold?

 

Holds are always fine.  Do them whenever you want.  But the way I look at it, planned holds with a daily taper are just an inefficient way to do a lower cut rate.  Let's say you cut .05mg a day and decided to hold two days a week too.  After a week you've cut .25mg...five .05mg cuts and two holds.  You can do the same thing and be a bit gentler on yourself by cutting .036mg a day and not holding at all.  This is always true.  Daily cutting is always the gentlest way to reduce for a given rate.  It is the ramp path and that is the path that lets the drug work for you the most efficiently.  It keeps the drug in your body longest to help you.

 

I'm really, really sorry for all the questions. I'm doing this taper on my own, my brain is in   mode, and I don't want to mess this up. Any and all advice is greatly appreciated. 

Left

[Guest [ba...]]

Not sure about 2 mg -> 100 mls being a 1:100 dilution.  It's a 1:50 dilution of PG and a 1:50,000 dilution (w/v) for the drug.  Probably doesn't really matter for the rest of the calculations.

 

Tap water is fine. 

 

I'm not real keen on storing this stuff in water for very long.  It isn't very soluble in water (even with 2 mls of PG).  The drug really wants to find a more suitable (less polar) environment.  So it will adsorb onto surfaces, especially plastic surfaces, if given a chance.  Unless the price of your drug is prohibitively expensive, I'd be very tempted to responsibly discard what you don't use.  It would keep fine in PG, but I'm not confident about keeping it in water for long periods of time.

 

You probably don't want to reduce 1 mg from your doses.  Perhaps you meant 1 ml (milliliter).  That's still a 1% cut which might be kind of large for you.  You might want to cut less (e.g. 0.5 mls from each dose).

 

Holding is entirely up to you.  If you feel poorly, you should hold (not continue cutting).  If you feel OK, then you continue with your MT.  It's entirely up to you and how you feel.

[[jr...]]

as a matter of info, I have stored my xanax doses in plastic juice bottles in the fridge for a good while. early in my taper, I crushed my xanax into powder and weighed my doses into a plastic bottle. I added about 10ml water and kept in the fridge. since I have started a LT, I have been keeping my doses in the fridge in the same plastic juice bottles. I have mixed up a 30 day supply of meds. Do you think that is too long to keep the mixture of .005mg/ml??? please let me know your thoughts before I get too far in . should I not use the plastic bottles for storing my doses?

[[Le...]]

SG, Bads,

I'm confused about some of the micro tapering details. My brain is on strike and I'm very OCD so I apologize for all the questions.   

 

I'll use 2ml PG to dissolve 2mg Valium in 98ml water for a 1:100 solution. Does the water need to be distilled/purified? Do you refrigerate the solution or can you keep it on the counter? How long will a batch *keep*?

 

Just use room temp or lukewarm water.  It does not need to be purified.  Temperature does affect solubility...warmer will dissolve more.  As we don't have accurate info I would not refrigerate.  As for how long, again we don't do testing so I'd keep it short...a few days.

 

I currently dose 5mg of Valium 3xs a day using 2mg pills. Once I start MT I thought I would reduce 1mg from the afternoon dose, then 1mg from the am dose, then 1mg from the pm dose.  Does this sound like a good plan?

 

I'd cut all doses at once, but rotating through them day by day will work.  Try to keep them close to even.

 

I'm extremely sensitive to cuts. My last cut from 15.25mg to 15mg caused horrible sxs (2% cut). I've been holding for a little over 4 months and it's helped me stabilize a bit. I was thinking of reducing by 2.5 ml a day which is pretty conservative at my dose. Do you think that's a good starting point?

 

mls are not mgs, but I assume you mean a 2mg=100ml liquid? 2.5mls would be .05mg a day and 1.5mg a month.  That's 10% a month and should be okay.

 

I know some people incorporate holds into their daily taper. Is this a good idea? How will I know when to hold?

 

Holds are always fine.  Do them whenever you want.  But the way I look at it, planned holds with a daily taper are just an inefficient way to do a lower cut rate.  Let's say you cut .05mg a day and decided to hold two days a week too. After a week you've cut .25mg...five .05mg cuts and two holds.  You can do the same thing and be a bit gentler on yourself by cutting .036mg a day and not holding at all. This is always true.  Daily cutting is always the gentlest way to reduce for a given rate.  It is the ramp path and that is the path that lets the drug work for you the most efficiently.  It keeps the drug in your body longest to help you.

 

I'm really, really sorry for all the questions. I'm doing this taper on my own, my brain is in   mode, and I don't want to mess this up. Any and all advice is greatly appreciated. 

Left

 

SG, I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by cutting all three doses at once..how would I accurately split the 2mg pills...would I have to spread the liquid out between the three doses...

 

I got the solution wrong... i meant to say 2mg Valium in a total 200 ml solution...not 100, sorry.. which would be a 1:100 ratio...is that correct? Based on the corrected solution ratio what do you think would be a good starting taper rate?

 

Your reasoning on holds while doing a daily taper make sense. I guess it will take a bit of experimenting to figure out the best rate for my body.

 

Thanks for your help and patience.

 

[[Le...]]

Not sure about 2 mg -> 100 mls being a 1:100 dilution.  It's a 1:50 dilution of PG and a 1:50,000 dilution (w/v) for the drug.  Probably doesn't really matter for the rest of the calculations.

 

Tap water is fine. 

 

I'm not real keen on storing this stuff in water for very long.  It isn't very soluble in water (even with 2 mls of PG).  The drug really wants to find a more suitable (less polar) environment.  So it will adsorb onto surfaces, especially plastic surfaces, if given a chance.  Unless the price of your drug is prohibitively expensive, I'd be very tempted to responsibly discard what you don't use.  It would keep fine in PG, but I'm not confident about keeping it in water for long periods of time.

 

You probably don't want to reduce 1 mg from your doses.  Perhaps you meant 1 ml (milliliter).  That's still a 1% cut which might be kind of large for you.  You might want to cut less (e.g. 0.5 mls from each dose).

 

Holding is entirely up to you.  If you feel poorly, you should hold (not continue cutting).  If you feel OK, then you continue with your MT.  It's entirely up to you and how you feel.

Bads, I messed up.. I meant to say 2mg Valium in total 200ml liquid. I'll store the solution in a glass jar protected from light, and only use what I need for that day.

 

Then that's a 1:100 solution?  It'll be easier to figure out the math for me with that ratio.

 

I was thinking of pulling 2.5ml a day to start. I think that equals .75mg reduction a month. Its a small amount I know, but i hope to increase the rate once I know how my body responds. Thanks.

[[ol...]]

I would like to try microtapering again. Last time I got really bad burning esophagus symptoms. Ativan has done that to me over the years. I have to wrap my pill in bread so it doesn't get stuck on the way down. Anyhow..........

 

The scale just is not very accurate and I worry about that.

 

I am at .39 mg a day. ( you can use .40 if that is better)

 

I plan on placing my 1mg pills in 2ml vodka and 98ml water so that will = 100ml

 

I will then separate that in to two containers of 50 ml each

 

How much liquid do I take out of each to make .39 mg ( or .40 if that is easier)

 

Sorry I can't figure this out 

 

I can put the second container in the fridge for the next day and it will be ok right?

[[an...]]

I would like to try microtapering again. Last time I got really bad burning esophagus symptoms. Ativan has done that to me over the years. I have to wrap my pill in bread so it doesn't get stuck on the way down. Anyhow..........

 

The scale just is not very accurate and I worry about that.

 

I am at .39 mg a day. ( you can use .40 if that is better)

 

I plan on placing my 1mg pills in 2ml vodka and 98ml water so that will = 100ml

 

I will then separate that in to two containers of 50 ml each

 

How much liquid do I take out of each to make .39 mg ( or .40 if that is easier)

 

Sorry I can't figure this out 

 

I can put the second container in the fridge for the next day and it will be ok right?

 

Hi Oldgreymare,

 

This will be 1 mg/100 mL = 0.01 mg/mL

 

So, 39 mL will contain  0.39 mg. You would need to remove 22 mL from the 100 mL of liquid.  This will leave you with 78 mL (0.78 mg) which will be enough for two days.

 

You do not need to refrigerate the liquid.  It is best to use at room temperature.

 

I usually eat some food before taking my liquid dose.  That should help the esophageal problem.

 

Anne

 

 

[[jr...]]

I would like to try microtapering again. Last time I got really bad burning esophagus symptoms. Ativan has done that to me over the years. I have to wrap my pill in bread so it doesn't get stuck on the way down. Anyhow..........

 

The scale just is not very accurate and I worry about that.

 

I am at .39 mg a day. ( you can use .40 if that is better)

 

I plan on placing my 1mg pills in 2ml vodka and 98ml water so that will = 100ml

 

I will then separate that in to two containers of 50 ml each

 

How much liquid do I take out of each to make .39 mg ( or .40 if that is easier)

 

Sorry I can't figure this out 

 

I can put the second container in the fridge for the next day and it will be ok right?

 

Hi Oldgreymare,

 

This will be 1 mg/100 mL = 0.01 mg/mL

 

So, 39 mL will contain  0.39 mg. You would need to remove 22 mL from the 100 mL of liquid.  This will leave you with 78 mL (0.78 mg) which will be enough for two days.

 

You do not need to refrigerate the liquid.  It is best to use at room temperature.

 

I usually eat some food before taking my liquid dose.  That should help the esophageal problem.

 

Anne

 

anne. i am curious. why is it better to take at room temperature?

[[ol...]]

Thanks Anne!! 

 

[[an...]]

It is possible that cold temperatures could cause some of the drug to precipitate out.  I would suggest letting the liquid come to room temperature before measuring a dose if you do refrigerate it.  Also, make sure to shake the liquid before measuring a dose regardless if you refrigerate or not.  I see no reason to refrigerate it though.

 

Anne

[[bu...]]

The diazepam/PG diluted solution does NOT need to be refrigerated.

 

In fact, the mfgr of Diazepam Oral Solution (a PG based water diluted RX liquid V) specifically states their product should be stored at 59F to 86F, but protected from light.

 

I often made enough dilute batch to keep up to 2 weeks.  Even your home-brewed PG solution will be stable, and non-perishable.

[Guest [ba...]]

as a matter of info, I have stored my xanax doses in plastic juice bottles in the fridge for a good while. early in my taper, I crushed my xanax into powder and weighed my doses into a plastic bottle. I added about 10ml water and kept in the fridge. since I have started a LT, I have been keeping my doses in the fridge in the same plastic juice bottles. I have mixed up a 30 day supply of meds. Do you think that is too long to keep the mixture of .005mg/ml??? please let me know your thoughts before I get too far in . should I not use the plastic bottles for storing my doses?

 

Xanax, like most benzos, is not very soluble in water.  The reported solubility of xanax is 0.04 mg/ml at neutral pH, but it would probably take a fair amount of time and work to reach that solubility.  Diluting first in alcohol or PG gets it into solution faster, but it is still only barely soluble in water.  If you're well under the 0.04 mg/ml concentration, it should remain in solution in water for a while.  How long??  I don't know.  I have not seen any studies on this except that there is a tendency for the drug to absorb into plastics over time.  The concern there was that an unsuspecting person could receive xanax if they drank out of a plastic container that was used to store a xanax solution.  Clearly, some measurable amount associates with plastics.  How much??  I have no idea.  I'm not saying that you should change what you're doing if it's working for you.  However, I find it interesting that people are very concerned about dry weight differences of 2-3% but have no idea how much of the drug is being lost in aqueous solutions during storage.

 

Xanax (and other benzo) solutions should probably should be stored in glass if they are stored.

[[de...]]

SGthank you so much but could you please tell me what the weights would be at those drops..

 

 

i dose...075 all 4 doses average weight .172...i cant do the math to know what the weights would be..

 

thanks

 

deep

 

.172g/mg, so...

 

5% - 1.838mg=.316g (.079g x4)

10% - 1.925mg=.331g (.083g x4)

15% - 2.012mg=.346g (.087g x4)

20% - 2.100mg=.362g (.090g x4)

25% - 2.188mg=.376g (.094g x4)

 

Each 5% is .004g more per dose.  I am leaving for the day to help my son find an apartment.  Good luck with this.

 

 

SG I now have a problem..i updosed the 10% i should have started out with the 5% dont know what i was thinking but have been at that amount since my second dose on saturday..i am a bit better..heart rate still goes to 120 if i stand up and walk very far and just dont feel right at all..but now my problem is if i cut one pill in half i have used all the ones that weighed over 168gms in my bottle..i am left with ones weighing .167 or less and if i cut them in half that would make me take 2mgs a day again that would be an increase of 1/4 mgs an i just cant go back to there..so what can i do? any suggestion would be appreciated..i didnt think about that when i updosed on saturday or i would have done the 5% first it sure seems like i am really going the wrong way..

 

thanks

 

deep