Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[an...]]

Thanks....I will think about that, if I decide to do it, how much is an average updose?

 

Stella,

 

I think I mentioned to you before, that it was possible that you were taking more than 0.6 mg/day when you were dry cutting.  This would explain why you felt so bad after switching to liquid--it would be like a cut.  An up dose should tell you pretty quickly if this is the case. Again, this might or might not work, but I thought from the beginning that this was the problem.  If it were me, I would go to 0.75 mg/day or 0.8 mg/day using the liquid.  From my experience with Ativan, you should know in a day or so.  Just my thoughts.

 

Anne

[[St...]]

Thanks so much Anne, I really think that might be the problem here too.  It sure does feel like a good size cut to me, knocked me for a loop for sure.  So if I go to 0.75 mg/day , would 18.75 be correct for each of the four doses?  Would I still reduce when ready by .002? Could you help me with that math?  I'm so math-challenged  especially with Benzo brain.  It would be so good to stabilize and feel good before beginning the LT down.... Stella

[[...]]

SG, I am back to see if I got this figgered out. I am gonna stay on my dry cut dose of .0154mgX(4 tid.) until I get my supplies for a liquid crossover.If I dilute .25mgX into 50ml liquid, i will have a mixture that is .005mgX per ML. and to reach a single dose of.0154mgX , I would need to take 3.08ml of the liquid.

 

Yup.  Exactly right.

[[an...]]

Thanks so much Anne, I really think that might be the problem here too.  It sure does feel like a good size cut to me, knocked me for a loop for sure.  So if I go to 0.75 mg/day , would 18.75 be correct for each of the four doses?  Would I still reduce when ready by .002? Could you help me with that math?  I'm so math-challenged  especially with Benzo brain.  It would be so good to stabilize and feel good before beginning the LT down.... Stella

 

Stella,

 

How much liquid do you use to prepare your doses.  I assume you are dissolving two 0.5 mg pills and you take 4 doses per day? 

[[st...]]

SG57

 

Hi,

 

  Thanks for your reply I have been going over it this morning and I think I have a better understanding.

I realise that to do this you have to have a projected dose drop over a certain time frame. eg 1.2 mg drop in 30 days  or 1.5mg drop in thirty days. I will give you an example of a scenario I worked on.

 

 

20.00mg diazepam in 5mg tablets is the dose he is on now. Each 5mg Tablet weighs .168g.

He wants to come down 1.5mg in 30 days.

1.5mg divided by 29.8 = .050mg. This will give him a daily reduction of .050mg. He doses twice so it will be 2 X .025mg daily reduction.

 

If I wanted a daily percentage the formula is

.050mg divided by 20mg X 100 = .250 percent daily

If I multiply the .250% percent X 30 days I get  7.5% which, if right is his percentage cut for 30 days.

To check this I  divide 20 by 7.5% and get 1.5mg which is his goal drop per 30 days.

 

If this is right let me know as I used this on several scenarios and it seemed to gel.

 

I don't know how to get this into weight so that I  know how much to shave every day.

I know that  20mg  or 4 X 5mg tablets weighing in at .168mg comes to .672mg

How does .050mg daily cuts equate to daily scale weight reduction. I obviously need this to be able to shave tablets.

 

I'm pretty sure this wrong and I know there must be a formula I just can't be sure what it is.

 

I divided the weight of 20mg by the percentage daily. This to me means .672 X by .250%.

This came to .00168 of a gram which I would round off to .0017g, does this sound right. I would have to halve that because he doses twice daily. I know the percentage rate changes, would this happen over the 30 day period or.

 

If I have the dosage reduction and percentage part right I only have to get the daily pill weight reduction.

I feel I have a better understanding, just need to know how many grams to shave

off every day using the 1.5mg drop in 30 days on 5mg tablets taper.

 

Thanks so much for taking the time to help.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[...]]

SG57

 

Hi,

 

  Thanks for your reply I have been going over it this morning and I think I have a better understanding.

I realise that to do this you have to have a projected dose drop over a certain time frame. eg 1.2 mg drop in 30 days  or 1.5mg drop in thirty days. I will give you an example of a scenario I worked on.

 

 

20.00mg diazepam in 5mg tablets is the dose he is on now. Each 5mg Tablet weighs .168g.

He wants to come down 1.5mg in 30 days.

1.5mg divided by 29.8 = .050mg. This will give him a daily reduction of .050mg. He doses twice so it will be 2 X .025mg daily reduction.

 

If I wanted a daily percentage the formula is

.050mg divided by 20mg X 100 = .250 percent daily

If I multiply the .250% percent X 30 days I get  7.5% which, if right is his percentage cut for 30 days.

To check this I  divide 20 by 7.5% and get 1.5mg which is his goal drop per 30 days.

 

If this is right let me know as I used this on several scenarios and it seemed to gel.

 

I don't know how to get this into weight so that I  know how much to shave every day.

I know that  20mg  or 4 X 5mg tablets weighing in at .168mg comes to .672mg

How does .050mg daily cuts equate to daily scale weight reduction. I obviously need this to be able to shave tablets.

 

I'm pretty sure this wrong and I know there must be a formula I just can't be sure what it is.

 

I divided the weight of 20mg by the percentage daily. This to me means .672 X by .250%.

This came to .00168 of a gram which I would round off to .0017g, does this sound right. I would have to halve that because he doses twice daily. I know the percentage rate changes, would this happen over the 30 day period or.

 

If I have the dosage reduction and percentage part right I only have to get the daily pill weight reduction.

I feel I have a better understanding, just need to know how many grams to shave

off every day using the 1.5mg drop in 30 days on 5mg tablets taper.

 

Thanks so much for taking the time to help.

 

 

You're getting there...you just need to keep things straight.  You mixed up mg and grams and also got a monthly number and mistaked it for daily.  I can't emphasize this enough: 29.8mg/g is the key number.  Whenever you see a pill weight and want to know V dose in mgs just multiply the pill weight by 29.8.  If you want to go the other way (from mg dose back to gram pill weight) just divide the mgs dose by 29.8.  29.8 takes you back and forth between pill weight and dose.  It is the conversion factor between weight and dose.

 

1.5mg is monthly, right?  And you want to know how many grams of pill weight that is?  Anytime you want to go from dose to pill weight divide by 29.8.  That's it.  1.5mg/month divided by 29.8mg/g is .050g/month.  So .050g is his monthly pill weight reduction.  To get daily just break that into 30 days by dividing by 30... .0017g/day.

 

If you want to see percentages you can then divide these numbers by .672g (which you correctly found was his daily pill weight) and multiply by 100... .050g/.672g=.074x100=7.4%.  .0017g/.672g=.0025x100=.25%.

[[St...]]

SG  Anne has suggested that I do an updose to .075.  Would that be 18.75 per each of my four doses then?  Is there a possibility of kindling when you updose?  I am strongly considering doing what she suggested, just need a few more questions answered, ok?  Thanks sooo much!  Is my math correct, dividing the total daily dose .075 by my four doses and coming up with 18.75 each?  How would I find the percent?  If I learn how to do the math I won't have to be such a pest..... Again, thanks!!!

[[...]]

Hi SG, and everyone,

 

Can anyone help me me please, im currently on liquid diazepam 2mg/5ml oral solution doing MT daily reduction method, now my doctor prescribe different strengh of diazepam 10mg/5m. is this ok to dillute with water same with my old one.  not sure about the ingredients as well if how much alcohol because i have stomach ulcer and i couldnt take with alcohol.  For the liquid diaz 2mg/5ml i can tolerate but not sure with the liquid diaz 10mg/5ml.  please help!!

 

thanks.

mcm

 

You need to identify the liquid...who makes it, what product is it?  Most of these pharma liquids are made with PG/alcohol/PEG combos and can be diluted with water.  But there are others that use oils and cannot dilute with water.

 

Hi again, SG and everyone

the ingredients is methyl and propyl parahydroxybenzoates, propylene glycol sorbitol sucrose and contains  amount of alcohol in the flavouring.  is this ok to dillute with water.  diazepam oral suspension 10mg/5ml.  not sure if my stomach will agree with the ing. cause i have stomach ulcer.

 

thanks.

mcm

[[...]]

SG  Anne has suggested that I do an updose to .075.  Would that be 18.75 per each of my four doses then?  Is there a possibility of kindling when you updose?  I am strongly considering doing what she suggested, just need a few more questions answered, ok?  Thanks sooo much!

 

Going to .75mg from .6mg is a 25% updose.  I was glad to see Anne suggested that as she seems to know more about your history.  It is a healthy updose and should do the trick.  The only reservation I have about updosing is they do not always bring relief, but I think it has only been two weeks for you so that is in your favor.  I doubt that anything bad can happen other than you lose some tapering time.  I think it is well worth trying.

 

Yes, .75mg would be 75ml a day.  Divided into four doses that is 18.75ml per dose.

[[...]]

You need to identify the liquid...who makes it, what product is it?  Most of these pharma liquids are made with PG/alcohol/PEG combos and can be diluted with water.  But there are others that use oils and cannot dilute with water.

 

Hi again, SG and everyone

the ingredients is methyl and propyl parahydroxybenzoates, propylene glycol sorbitol sucrose and contains  amount of alcohol in the flavouring.  is this ok to dillute with water.  diazepam oral suspension 10mg/5ml.  not sure if my stomach will agree with the ing. cause i have stomach ulcer.

 

thanks.

mcm

 

That looks very promising.  PG is the solvent and I'll guess the other stuff is flavoring and preservatives.  You can test it by mixing 1ml with 19ml water.  When fully mixed it should swirl into a nice and even looking liquid...nothing on the bottom and no layers within the liquid.  If that happens I think you can be confident it is a dissolved solution.

 

Who makes it?  I've never seen this product before.  What country are you in?

[[...]]

SG,

made in UK by Rosemont, oral solution 10mg/5ml,  the one Im currently using is made by actavis uk oral solution 2mg/5ml.  When i dillute in water i need to shake properly because i can see there is still something in the bottom but it will dissolve anyway. now im confused if im using the right product its been 3 weeks since I started the Mt.

 

thanks mcm

 

[[St...]]

SG, I only get 45 0.5 pills a month from my doc, is that going to be enough to updose to .75?  Or should I only go to .70?  I know you said it was enough for .060.  Just got to thinking about that.....

[[Ul...]]

I found a site that lists hydrocodone as a 3A4 inhibitor and 3A4 is the enzyme that metabolizes X.  So this is saying that hydrocodone keeps your X around longer, basically increasing its half life for a while.  It does not create a shortage of X, it creates an excess.  We don't know how much excess and if it is enough to matter, or even if an excess is a bad thing.  But there it is.  My gut feeling is this is not the problem.

 

Hi SG! Sometime ago you told me about enzyme inhibitors and how to tell if a med interferes with my K taper. I can't remember what you said and I also can't find it. Anyway, the bottom line is that I'm about to start taking something called NP Thyroid. It's a natural dessicated thyroid med that isn't synthetic like Levothyroxine, Synthroid, etc. Can you tell me how I'd go about seeing what reactions occur between K and NP Thyroid? I'll start at 30mg and then increase based on symptoms and labs. As you know, this ridiculous dose of K I've taken for 22 yrs has affected so many things, and my thyroid is just one of them. I'm still hoping for some kind of relief.

 

One other thing that you know I struggle with: Sleep. It's still non-existent for the most part. Incredibly frustrating. Have tried working a job quite a few times, but never been able to handle the sx of tapering, no sleep, etc. Just too much. The financial stress has been killer too, as so many of us have experienced. My lack of sleep didn't occur until I began the taper a year ago or so. Do you have any thoughts on why I seem to be struggling in a drastic way with insomnia as compared to most people on this thread? Again, the sleep problem only occurred when the taper started.

 

Oh yeh...what am I going to do when I EVENTUALLY get down to a low dose of tapering? That's probably several years from now (at this rate). You'll probably be gone!! You and Builder will probably be off in the Carribean someplace. I'm gonna have SG/Builder withdrawals in addition to K withdrawals! I/we need you, man!!!

 

Bless ya,

 

Jeff

 

Haha, well I don't see an end yet so I won't be leaving any time soon.  I'm not sure about Builder...haven't seen him around the past few days.  In fact, both he and DP have not been around lately.  I hope they haven't left.  I'd like to see a few others step up as they gain experience.  That's the only way to keep it going.

 

I had the same situation as you.  Never had a sleep problem in my life, but struggled during the taper and still am not happy with it, although it has improved to 5-6 hours a night.  I used to get 7 1/2-8 sound hours.  I don't know what to say other than insomnia is a symptom so I'd think the best way to control it by taper rate.

 

On the NP thyroid, Search "np thyroid cyp450" and "inducer" or "inhibitor" and see what shows up for the 3A4 enzyme (that's the one that metabolizes K).  Is there a generic name for that drug?  I did not see much about it when I looked quickly.

 

Hey SG. No, there's no generic name for NP Thyroid. It's a natural medication, but it's a medication, nevertheless. My insurance covers it (thank God), but it's not nearly as prevalent as something like Synthroid or Levothyroxine for thyroid therapy. It's much more effective (NP Thyroid) and has less problems than Synthroid because it's natural. Not a ton of info out there on Natural Dessicated Thyroid meds because Big Pharma keeps docs believing that Synthroid is the way to go and pushes it hard via marketing. Actually, Synthroid is the big money maker for Big Pharma. #1 written drug in 2014. Lots of cash!! Western medicine makes a lot more money by keeping people sick. Anyway, I couldn't find anything either in the search. I'll keep looking. Thanks for the help, and...don't go away!!

 

Appreciate ya.

 

Jeff

[[Ul...]]

Hi Jeff,

Are you going to be taking naturethroid? Or Armour thyroid ?

I am about to go the same route... Could not tolerate  the Levo or the synthroid.

Seeing a new doc about it Monday.

What a hassle, no? 

 

Hoping Builder is doing ok...

 

Hey Moodle! We decided to bypass Armour since it was bought out by a new company last year, reformulated it, and lots and lots of people have had a really tough time. Naturethroid is an option, but I just talked to so many people who said that NP Thyroid was a very "clean" natural dessicated thyroid med and that they had really good results. Different strokes, ya know? I wish you greatness with whatever way you go. I hope your doc has tested all parts of the thyroid (Reverse T3, Free T3, Free T4, TSH, and both antibody tests) and, just as importantly, looked at WHERE things fall within each range. Really important.

 

Keep hanging tough!

 

Jeff

[[Ul...]]

Gard,

 

I am so sorry you are having a hard time. I just wanted to let you know I am thinking of you and I am here if you want to talk. Sending you lots of love!

 

Jeff,

I miss you! I hope this new med helps!

XO Maya

 

Howdy, Maya!! Great to "see" ya. And congrats on the success. You're making us all look bad

 

Hugs,

 

Jeff

[[...]]

SG,

made in UK by Rosemont, oral solution 10mg/5ml,  the one Im currently using is made by actavis uk oral solution 2mg/5ml.  When i dillute in water i need to shake properly because i can see there is still something in the bottom but it will dissolve anyway. now im confused if im using the right product its been 3 weeks since I started the Mt.

 

thanks mcm

 

 

Weird that I can't find it online.  I don't see any Rosemont 10mg/5ml diazepam or any other benzo in that strength.  I used the 5mg/5ml Roxane liquid and it was dissolved in PG.  I was able dilute with water and just paddle-stir it and it went right into solution.  It resulted in a nice clear, uniform liquid.  It is concerning that you say you can see stuff on the bottom when you dilute.

[[...]]

SG, I only get 45 0.5 pills a month from my doc, is that going to be enough to updose to .75?  Or should I only go to .70?  I know you said it was enough for .060.  Just got to thinking about that.....

 

45 pills is 22.5mg a month...that's enough for .75mg a day.  So if you don't waste any you have enough to do that.

[[St...]]

ok, thanks so much.....!!!

 

[[Mo...]]

Hi Jeff,

Are you going to be taking naturethroid? Or Armour thyroid ?

I am about to go the same route... Could not tolerate  the Levo or the synthroid.

Seeing a new doc about it Monday.

What a hassle, no? 

 

Hoping Builder is doing ok...

 

Hey Moodle! We decided to bypass Armour since it was bought out by a new company last year, reformulated it, and lots and lots of people have had a really tough time. Naturethroid is an option, but I just talked to so many people who said that NP Thyroid was a very "clean" natural dessicated thyroid med and that they had really good results. Different strokes, ya know? I wish you greatness with whatever way you go. I hope your doc has tested all parts of the thyroid (Reverse T3, Free T3, Free T4, TSH, and both antibody tests) and, just as importantly, looked at WHERE things fall within each range. Really important.

 

Keep hanging tough!

 

Jeff

 

Hey JEFF!

Thanks.

 

Does NP thyroid have t3 ?

 

Yes, all the tests have been done. I have hashimoto's.

Most endos seems to think that I'm fine as I go from low to high TSH. Which is so weird. When I happen to test and my TSh is lower, they say it starts looking better.  Next time, it's way up there again.

Glad I did the antibodies test. I'm so tired of this.

 

Did you also lose a lot of hair? I used to have a huge amount of hair. Now I lost about 1/3 of it all.

 

Sorry for high jacking this thread for a second.

[[...]]

SG,

made in UK by Rosemont, oral solution 10mg/5ml,  the one Im currently using is made by actavis uk oral solution 2mg/5ml.  When i dillute in water i need to shake properly because i can see there is still something in the bottom but it will dissolve anyway. now im confused if im using the right product its been 3 weeks since I started the Mt.

 

thanks mcm

 

 

Weird that I can't find it online.  I don't see any Rosemont 10mg/5ml diazepam or any other benzo in that strength.  I used the 5mg/5ml Roxane liquid and it was dissolved in PG.  I was able dilute with water and just paddle-stir it and it went right into solution.  It resulted in a nice clear, uniform liquid.  It is concerning that you say you can see stuff on the bottom when you dilute.

 

I found a Rosemont temazepam 10mg/5ml oral solution dissolved in PG and alcohol, but the excipients are different...

 

6.1 List of excipients

Ethanol, Propylene Glycol, Peppermint Oil, Caramel E150, Trometamol, Citric Acid Monohydrate, Patent Blue V E131, Glycerol, Sorbitol Solution 70%, Purified Water

 

Just weird your diazepam does not show up online.

 

 

[[no...]]

Hi all  can I use vegetable glycerine to make a solution or does it have to be propylene Glycol? And how do I go about making a solution? I would be very grateful if some one who knows could take me through each step in simple terms please.  I am liquefying 2mg of Diazepam of my dose at the moment in 200mls of water, and don't know the procedure using glycerine if it's appropriate, and milk and alcohol are both no no's for me

 

 

Thanks Nova xxx :smitten:

[[...]]

SG,

made in UK by Rosemont, oral solution 10mg/5ml,  the one Im currently using is made by actavis uk oral solution 2mg/5ml.  When i dillute in water i need to shake properly because i can see there is still something in the bottom but it will dissolve anyway. now im confused if im using the right product its been 3 weeks since I started the Mt.

 

thanks mcm

 

 

SG,

yes if i mix it with water i need to shake and it went all clear and mixing properly, nextday i need to shake a bit again before taking the out some solution to drink.

 

Weird that I can't find it online.  I don't see any Rosemont 10mg/5ml diazepam or any other benzo in that strength.  I used the 5mg/5ml Roxane liquid and it was dissolved in PG.  I was able dilute with water and just paddle-stir it and it went right into solution.  It resulted in a nice clear, uniform liquid.  It is concerning that you say you can see stuff on the bottom when you dilute.

 

I found a Rosemont temazepam 10mg/5ml oral solution dissolved in PG and alcohol, but the excipients are different...

 

6.1 List of excipients

Ethanol, Propylene Glycol, Peppermint Oil, Caramel E150, Trometamol, Citric Acid Monohydrate, Patent Blue V E131, Glycerol, Sorbitol Solution 70%, Purified Water

 

Just weird your diazepam does not show up online.

[[st...]]

SG57

 

Hi SG,

          Thanks for your prompt reply. I appreciate the advice. I now know the math required to help my son.

He picks a dose he wants to reduce in 30 days and divides by 29.8mg/g then divide by 30 which gives daily reduction. So 1mg drop in 30 days = 1 divided by 29.8 = .0335g/month then divide by 30 = .0011g/ day.

I also understand the percentages.

I don't want this to sound too stupid but how did you arrive at 29.8 as the key number. It has me intrigued. What would the number be for 2 mg tablets.

 

You have helped us so much and taken a lot of the worry out of this.  Can't thank you enough. 

[[no...]]

Hi all  can I use vegetable glycerine to make a solution or does it have to be propylene Glycol? And how do I go about making a solution? I would be very grateful if some one who knows could take me through each step in simple terms please.  I am liquefying 2mg of Diazepam of my dose at the moment in 200mls of water, and don't know the procedure using glycerine if it's appropriate, and milk and alcohol are both no no's for me

 

 

Thanks Nova xxx :smitten:

 

 

 

Okay, I now know Glycerine can be used as a solvent but....

 

Disadvantages of glycerol as a solvent

High viscosity

 

Glycerol is very viscous at lower temperatures and can cause mass transfer problems. Solutions to this problem include using a fluidifying co-solvent or working at a higher temperature above 60°C where glycerol is less viscous. http://greenglycerol.wikispaces.com/Properties+of+Glycerol+as+a+Solvent

 

So wouldn't that be a problem using room temperature water to make the solution? And I still don't know the protocol for turning my pill into a solution using the glycerine.

 

Love Nova xxx :smitten:

 

 

[[...]]

SG,

yes if i mix it with water i need to shake and it went all clear and mixing properly, nextday i need to shake a bit again before taking the out some solution to drink.

 

If you need to keep shaking it it is not a solution and it did not dissolve.  It is a suspension, but may still work.  Suspensions can work too.