Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[os...]]

 

 

arcade you are doing well.

 

Congrats.

[[...]]

I found a site that lists hydrocodone as a 3A4 inhibitor and 3A4 is the enzyme that metabolizes X.  So this is saying that hydrocodone keeps your X around longer, basically increasing its half life for a while.  It does not create a shortage of X, it creates an excess.  We don't know how much excess and if it is enough to matter, or even if an excess is a bad thing.  But there it is.  My gut feeling is this is not the problem.

 

Thanks Sg for that. that really makes sense as the hydrocodone offers me some relief from the sxs of tapering. I read your post about going really slow too late. I thought because I was on such a low dose that I could speed things up by taking a 33% cut! WRONG!! Live and learn huh? I notice you have been off for awhile and wondered how you are feeling? I hope all is well.

 

I'm slowly getting better.  Still struggling at times and have yet to have a window.  Don't see an end to it yet, but perhaps another few months will change that.

[[St...]]

ok, since I have been LT my interdose withdrawal has gotten a lot worse, I have been thinking of going to dosing five times a day instead of four to help with this, would that work?  I have been dosing every four hours with a long time between the night and morning dose, this would have me dosing every five hours or so,  I started the LT eleven days ago, is this too much change at once?

 

[[...]]

ok, since I have been LT my interdose withdrawal has gotten a lot worse, I have been thinking of going to dosing five times a day instead of four to help with this, would that work?  I have been dosing every four hours with a long time between the night and morning dose, this would have me dosing every five hours or so,  I started the LT eleven days ago, is this too much change at once?

 

When does the interdose occur?  It seems like you have 12 hours between night and morning dose...that's a long time for someone who needs to dose 4x.  When and how much do you dose?

[[St...]]

Yes, I wondered about that....my full dose is .6mg, I dose 15 ml four times a day.  7:00, 12:00, 5:00, and 10:00.  The Interdose occurs about l 1/2 hours before my dose time...

 

I was wondering about 6:00, 11:00, 4:00, 9:00 and 1:00,  does that sound like it might work, or would this be too much change for me while adjusting to the LT?  Thanks SG for your help again...you are appreciated!

[[...]]

Yes, I wondered about that....my full dose is .6mg, I dose 15 ml four times a day.  7:00, 12:00, 5:00, and 10:00.  The Interdose occurs about l 1/2 hours before my dose time...

 

I was wondering about 6:00, 11:00, 4:00, 9:00 and 1:00,  does that sound like it might work, or would this be too much change for me while adjusting to the LT?  Thanks SG for your help again...you are appreciated!

 

I tend not to worry about change as at the end of the day it is the same dose.  But people do seem to feel dose time changes.  My approach is to just jump to the new schedule and let whatever settle.

 

More doses should help.  I'd even go to six a day...every four hours.  At some point it gets ridiculous and a cross to V or other drug is needed.

[[ga...]]

I found a site that lists hydrocodone as a 3A4 inhibitor and 3A4 is the enzyme that metabolizes X.  So this is saying that hydrocodone keeps your X around longer, basically increasing its half life for a while.  It does not create a shortage of X, it creates an excess.  We don't know how much excess and if it is enough to matter, or even if an excess is a bad thing.  But there it is.  My gut feeling is this is not the problem.

 

Thanks Sg for that. that really makes sense as the hydrocodone offers me some relief from the sxs of tapering. I read your post about going really slow too late. I thought because I was on such a low dose that I could speed things up by taking a 33% cut! WRONG!! Live and learn huh? I notice you have been off for awhile and wondered how you are feeling? I hope all is well.

 

I'm slowly getting better.  Still struggling at times and have yet to have a window.  Don't see an end to it yet, but perhaps another few months will change that.

 

Sorry it's so slow, but good  that you do see some progress. Hang in there.

[[st...]]

Hi there was wondering if anyone is well versed in daily micro cutting with scales? I have a set if medical grad scales that can read 0.0001g very high quality but have really bad cognitive impairment and having a hard time figuring out the math. Initially I will probably cut and hold to get my dose down a little but will then like to slow down and do a micro daily cuts. I am on 20mg of valium. SG57

Deepcanyon told me to mention you and perhaps you could help.

Thanks for your time

[[...]]

Hi there was wondering if anyone is well versed in daily micro cutting with scales? I have a set if medical grad scales that can read 0.0001g very high quality but have really bad cognitive impairment and having a hard time figuring out the math. Initially I will probably cut and hold to get my dose down a little but will then like to slow down and do a micro daily cuts. I am on 20mg of valium. SG57

Deepcanyon told me to mention you and perhaps you could help.

Thanks for your time

 

What do you need to know?

[[la...]]

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5% of 7.125mg is .3625mg.  If this is a 2mg pill weighing .170g is would be .031g.

 

SG, my 2mg pill weighs approx. .168

 

On Monday I will be at .138g (7.125mg total for day)

 

so I just always cut .002 off everyday or do the c/2 c/2 c/2 c/1 pattern all the way down to zero?. The change in weight does not matter?

[[...]]

.

 

 

 

5% of 7.125mg is .3625mg.  If this is a 2mg pill weighing .170g is would be .031g.

 

SG, my 2mg pill weighs approx. .168

 

On Monday I will be at .138g (7.125mg total for day)

 

so I just always cut .002 off everyday or do the c/2 c/2 c/2 c/1 pattern all the way down to zero?. The change in weight does not matter?

 

.168g and .170g are about the same thing...a very minor difference.

 

Your pace will need to slow down as your dose drops so the c2/c2/c2/c1 pattern will need to change.  Monthly percentage is a good guide to help with this, but ultimately you'll go by how you feel.

[[st...]]

Just help with figuring out a daily micro taper and weight and hell with the math.

I PM'd you SG57

[[...]]

Just help with figuring out a daily micro taper and weight and hell with the math.

I PM'd you SG57

 

What size V pills do you have?  2mg helps a lot with the scale method.  Sounds like your scale will be up to the job.

[[st...]]

I have 5mg but can acquire 2mg if need be. Trouble is the 2mg have a different inactive ingredient when I tried to do dry tabs + solution it flared symptoms bad. I could still try the 2mg though. What do you recommend for micro cutting? My 5mg pills weigh roughly 0.17 on average. My father will be doing this with a nail file for presicion and I'm too impaired. Is there a way to contact directly? Thanns

[[...]]

I have 5mg but can acquire 2mg if need be. Trouble is the 2mg have a different inactive ingredient when I tried to do dry tabs + solution it flared symptoms bad. I could still try the 2mg though. What do you recommend for micro cutting? My 5mg pills weigh roughly 0.17 on average. My father will be doing this with a nail file for presicion and I'm too impaired. Is there a way to contact directly? Thanns

 

We can communicate on this thread.  Okay, 5mg weighing .170g.  Dose is 20mg.  Each .0010g on the scale is .0294mg V.  It's hard to say where to begin as that depends on many factors.  So what I usually say is to hold "until you feel ready to cut."  That's a subjective judgement on your part.  When cutting begins, not knowing your history, I'd say begin low at 8% a month and see how it goes.  At your dose that's 1.6mg or .053mg a day.  This is .0018g with your 5mg pills.

 

The idea is not to cut every day no matter what.  The idea is simple: monitor symptoms and if there is no increase, go ahead and cut.  If symptoms are trending up, hold and consider reducing your cut size.  Do not allow symptom increase, but otherwise cut.  And feel free to throw in holds whenever you feel like it.

 

The 2mg pills will give a smoother ride, but these should work too.

[[st...]]

Ok thanks heaps, I should fill you in a little about my history and my sensitivities. I first went into withdrawal in August of 2013, since then I had a failed taper which wasnt short by any means but I did the cut and hold method. At 7 months out I reinstated as my family could not handle me and the symptoms I was having, I had a CT aswell but quickly reinstated.

 

My dose was doubled to 30mg from 15mg to bring me back out of acute, I didnt stay on 30mg long before I started cutting and managed to get to 20mg. I am in severe tolerance and unable to tolerate the liquid so figured this would be next best thing. I will likely cut and hold if I can tolerate it to bring my dose back down to where it was but would then like to do a microtaper daily or hold as needed like you described.

Can I ask why the 2mg pills will be smoother?

Also I dose twice daily when making cuts should I chip away at both doses evenly? it probably is possible for me to get the 2mg pills but my cat has a better understanding of the withdrawal syndrome than my doctor so I prefer to leave him right out of it. it is possible to get them though if you think its necessary. Also, are you aware of any spreadsheet programs that would be useful for this kind of micro talering? Something where I can put in what percentage I want to come down a month and my dose and have it calculate the weight reduction increments ? Just curious as I have seen similar spreadsheets for LT.

Thanks again for your help

SG57

[[mi...]]

I have a question about microtapering. I have been doing cut and hold 10% every ten days. When you Microtaper do you still do the 10% thing? I've switched to Microtaper this week. I was at .24 and am tapering down to .22

 

So, if I'm doing cut/cut/hold it would look like this in grams (.24 was .082 grams)

Sun- .081

Mon- .080

Tues- .080

Wed- .079

Thurs- .078

Fri- .078

Sat- .077

Sun- .076

Mon- .076

Tues- .075

 

But it seems like the smaller I go the percentages will get higher than 10% right? And do most people just cut by .001 a day at this low of a dose?

[[re...]]

I feel like I will never understand this and yet I think I need to do it. I am stuck at 7mg. diazepam and doing dry cuts. I definitely need something smoother. When your brain is fried and your trying to figure this out it's horrible. I don't understand the math. I understand 1mg. or a quarter of a mg. I guess you are using fractions? Math has never been my subject.

 

Is there anyone out there that can help me understand this? I appreciate any and all efforts!!!

 

Thank you! 

[[...]]

Ok thanks heaps, I should fill you in a little about my history and my sensitivities. I first went into withdrawal in August of 2013, since then I had a failed taper which wasnt short by any means but I did the cut and hold method. At 7 months out I reinstated as my family could not handle me and the symptoms I was having, I had a CT aswell but quickly reinstated.

 

My dose was doubled to 30mg from 15mg to bring me back out of acute, I didnt stay on 30mg long before I started cutting and managed to get to 20mg. I am in severe tolerance and unable to tolerate the liquid so figured this would be next best thing. I will likely cut and hold if I can tolerate it to bring my dose back down to where it was but would then like to do a microtaper daily or hold as needed like you described.

Can I ask why the 2mg pills will be smoother?

Also I dose twice daily when making cuts should I chip away at both doses evenly? it probably is possible for me to get the 2mg pills but my cat has a better understanding of the withdrawal syndrome than my doctor so I prefer to leave him right out of it. it is possible to get them though if you think its necessary. Also, are you aware of any spreadsheet programs that would be useful for this kind of micro talering? Something where I can put in what percentage I want to come down a month and my dose and have it calculate the weight reduction increments ? Just curious as I have seen similar spreadsheets for LT.

Thanks again for your help

SG57

 

2mg pills are more accurate.  A problem with the scale method is you are operating at the extreme of its ability to be accurate.  To see this, look at the smallest cut you can make.  With a 5mg/.170g pill and a .001g scale it is .0294mg.  With a 2mg/.170g pill it is .0118mg...nearly 3x more accurate.  Of course, your scale might go beyond this accuracy, although I have to wonder if it will get too annoying to file the right weight below .001g.  Give 5mg a try.  It might be fine.

 

Yes, definitely bring both doses down together.  That is important.

 

What's the advantage of doing cut and hold, then switching to MT?  Why wouldn't you do it now?  Those step cuts can be brutal and a shock to your nervous system.  Why not avoid that?  Especially since you are sensitive I'd begin now.  But that is just my opinion.

[[...]]

I have a question about microtapering. I have been doing cut and hold 10% every ten days. When you Microtaper do you still do the 10% thing? I've switched to Microtaper this week. I was at .24 and am tapering down to .22

 

So, if I'm doing cut/cut/hold it would look like this in grams (.24 was .082 grams)

Sun- .081

Mon- .080

Tues- .080

Wed- .079

Thurs- .078

Fri- .078

Sat- .077

Sun- .076

Mon- .076

Tues- .075

 

But it seems like the smaller I go the percentages will get higher than 10% right? And do most people just cut by .001 a day at this low of a dose?

 

10% every 10 days is quite fast.  I assume you are lightly dependent and can handle that...most people can't.  But yeah, you could just divide the 10%/10 day cut up into ten .1% cuts over 10 days.

 

Yes, if you are cutting by percentage you need to keep adjusting your cut smaller as you go lower to keep the percentage the same.

[[...]]

I feel like I will never understand this and yet I think I need to do it. I am stuck at 7mg. diazepam and doing dry cuts. I definitely need something smoother. When your brain is fried and your trying to figure this out it's horrible. I don't understand the math. I understand 1mg. or a quarter of a mg. I guess you are using fractions? Math has never been my subject.

 

Is there anyone out there that can help me understand this? I appreciate any and all efforts!!!

 

Thank you! 

 

It can be done with whole numbers if you use a lot of liquid.

[[mi...]]

I have a question about microtapering. I have been doing cut and hold 10% every ten days. When you Microtaper do you still do the 10% thing? I've switched to Microtaper this week. I was at .24 and am tapering down to .22

 

So, if I'm doing cut/cut/hold it would look like this in grams (.24 was .082 grams)

Sun- .081

Mon- .080

Tues- .080

Wed- .079

Thurs- .078

Fri- .078

Sat- .077

Sun- .076

Mon- .076

Tues- .075

 

But it seems like the smaller I go the percentages will get higher than 10% right? And do most people just cut by .001 a day at this low of a dose?

 

10% every 10 days is quite fast.  I assume you are lightly dependent and can handle that...most people can't.  But yeah, you could just divide the 10%/10 day cut up into ten .1% cuts over 10 days.

 

Yes, if you are cutting by percentage you need to keep adjusting your cut smaller as you go lower to keep the percentage the same.

 

I've been able to tolerate it mostly, sometimes I would hold longer or cut less, but for the most part it's been 10%. I'm on propranolol which I think for me personally has helped me taper.

[[jr...]]

SG57 you are a saint! I thank you for all you do here!! you jumped long ago but still stay here as helper, advisor, math guru, and friend......Again Thank you from me and I am sure all the bb you have helped! dont think it goes unnoticed

[[Mo...]]

I feel like I will never understand this and yet I think I need to do it. I am stuck at 7mg. diazepam and doing dry cuts. I definitely need something smoother. When your brain is fried and your trying to figure this out it's horrible. I don't understand the math. I understand 1mg. or a quarter of a mg. I guess you are using fractions? Math has never been my subject.

 

Is there anyone out there that can help me understand this? I appreciate any and all efforts!!!

 

Thank you! 

 

Redwoods...

 

Liquid tapering is super easy.

For example: you drop 1 mgr of Valium 2 ml of vodka.

Then your tablet will dissolve.

You then add 98 ml of water.

Now you have 100 ml liquid. And you can reduce by 1 ml or 2 ml or 5 ml a day, any which way you want. To make very small cuts...

 

Does that make sense?

You just replace 1 mgr of your dose with liquid.

The rest you take in pills.

 

Now it's only a matter of knowing how much you would like to cut per mot h, let's say...and the. The math is easy and someone can help you figuring out how many ml that will be for your desired cut rate...

[[st...]]

Ok, If I were using strictly 2mg pills I would go through them pretty quickly. These scales are used in Labs and for medical purposes and can measure 4 decimal places. I will compare the difference with the two pills.

Is it best to c/c/h or c/h/c/h?

If you think its best to start by microtapering I might just do that, how would I do a 1.5mg reduction per month in weight and dose? If I'm holding every second day how does that work percentage wise? Would that require making 15 cuts if holding every 2nd day to make up 1.5mg monthly? Sorry about all the question's really struggling to wrap my head around the math.  Do you think its possible to make this as smooth as a LT? I will probably get this rolling within the next week or so.

Thanks SG57 much appreciated.