Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[ga...]]

Long time since I was here. Hope everyone is doing well, or as well as possible, all things considered.  At .75mg from 1mg as of March 1.  Slow progress as I started Sept 1, 2015.  I am sensitive to cuts and have to work full time.  A bit more anxiety this weekend. Sometimes I wish I could go faster, but as long as I am cutting, that is progress.

 

Take care everyone!

Stay strong!

Shaani

 

Hi Shaani! Good to see you. Glad to hear you are keeping up the taper and moving toward your goal.

 

Gard

[[...]]

Oh, okay.  I thought your dose was 35mg.  For 30mg you are at 15% a month.  That's getting up there.  And it keeps inching up with every cut.  For example, the same cut at 25mg would be 18% a month.

 

I believe low cut rates are a powerful thing for symptomatic people as they add a lot of time to the taper.  That translates into a lot of extra healing during the taper, as time is exactly what is required to restore receptors.  Let's say you are symptomatic and your body can keep up with 15% a month, but you decide to cut at 10% anyway.  What happens to the extra 5% of healing capacity you are not using?  Does it go to waste?  I don't think so...not if you are symptomatic.  I think your body will use it and go to work on existing symptoms.  I think, over time, existing symptoms will go away.  If your fatigue and insomnia are symptoms it stands to reason they will go away if you taper below your full capacity.  It may take months, but it is logical that that is what will eventually happen.

 

I was at 35mg (7 caps) but have tapered down to 30mg (6 caps) as of tomorrow. I will probably not keep the 3 ml/day up for long. Definitely don't want to be approaching 20%. I know that's too fast for me. Guess I'll be back to doing round robin again when I drop to 2ml/day. And I think that will be much simpler with the 3 capsules in 3 jars method.

 

One thing that I don't quite understand is the whole issue of bio-accumulation. Isn't it true that the longer I taper, the more drug I'm taking, and the more L is bioaccumulating in my tissues? And then I have to deal with a longer post-withdrawal problem because I have all the more drug in my body? Or is it released again into the bloodstream while I am still tapering? I know this is off topic, but it's something I have never understood. Do you have information on this or know where I can find it somewhere on BB? Thanks.

 

There is no need to use round robin.  Just mix all three caps in one 300ml jar, take the 2ml cut, then split the remaining three ways by eyeballing even.  Your total for the day will be down 2ml and the three doses will be nearly even.

 

I think the accumulation in tissues is driven by concentration in the blood.  As blood concentration drops while tapering any benzo stored in tissues gradually leaves since the equilibrium level is now lower.  So, no, I don't think it gets higher the longer the drug is around.  I'd think it would get lower and lower as we taper.  I don't know where there is any verification of this, it is just what I think based on how diffusion works.

[[an...]]

Long time since I was here. Hope everyone is doing well, or as well as possible, all things considered.  At .75mg from 1mg as of March 1.  Slow progress as I started Sept 1, 2015.  I am sensitive to cuts and have to work full time.  A bit more anxiety this weekend. Sometimes I wish I could go faster, but as long as I am cutting, that is progress.

 

Take care everyone!

Stay strong!

Shaani

 

Hi Shaani,

 

It is great to hear from you.  You are doing great.  Slow is the key.  You have made great progress.

 

Enjoy the weekend,

Anne xoxox

[[ga...]]

 

There is no need to use round robin.  Just mix all three caps in one 300ml jar, take the 2ml cut, then split the remaining three ways by eyeballing even.  Your total for the day will be down 2ml and the three doses will be nearly even.

 

I think the accumulation in tissues is driven by concentration in the blood.  As blood concentration drops while tapering any benzo stored in tissues gradually leaves since the equilibrium level is now lower.  So, no, I don't think it gets higher the longer the drug is around.  I'd think it would get lower and lower as we taper.  I don't know where there is any verification of this, it is just what I think based on how diffusion works.

 

Thanks, that's a helpful explanation.

 

It just occurred to me, that while I am at all whole capsules of L (as of tomorrow), it would be an extra-easy time to do a hold.

 

I remembered something today and my daughter confirmed it. When I about half crossed to L in the summer, I was at 30mg L plus some X. And I was able to inch up until I was tapering at 15%, all off the X. So I was on 30mg L for many months and was at 15% for quite awhile. I did not feel this exhausted.

 

When I finished my cross to L it was not so much because of symptoms getting worse, but because of how tiresome it was to dose 6 liquid doses of X every day, including in the middle of the night. I was stressed just from the constant reminders of the taper. And from keeping track off all those bottles and trying to keep them clean.

 

The cross slowed me down and then I inched back up to the 15% rate again because it was tolerable before. Now, as of tomorrow, I will be back on the same amount of L I was on in the summer when I was half crossed. So why so painfully tired now at 15% and the same amount of L? Two possibilities I can think of:

 

1. I need to slow down the percent because I'm lower on the benzos overall now.

2. When I was finishing my cross, my primary doctor was increasing my gabapentin. I have always found gabapentin to be tiring, even when I took 100mg x 3 doses for autoimmune neuropathy many years ago. That dose was too low to help the neuropathy but made me tired and dizzy to the point I could barely think so I gave up on it. Now my doctor has me at 300mg x 3 doses. Helps the neuropathy, but I think I can't tolerate this much gabapentin.

 

My thought is to hold the L at 2 caps x 3 (no liquifying, yay) and try to reduce the gabapentin (will need liquifying but water soluble). Maybe if I could knock 100mg off each dose I would feel better. I recall all those years ago being able to taper off of it completely without symptoms and fairly quickly. Of course, I wasn't on a benzo then. Could be a whole new ballgame now.

 

Also found this quote on drugs.com while searching for solubility: Patients should be carefully observed for signs of central nervous system (CNS) depression, such as somnolence and sedation, when Gabapentin is used with other drugs with sedative properties because of potential synergy. I think that means the sedation effect of the sum of the two meds together is greater than you would expect, right?

 

Any other thoughts? Anyone with a working brain, feel free to chime in. Heck, I'll take half-working brains, too! I'm way below that.

[[os...]]

 

Hope everyone is doing well.

 

I just went on a fb group and had a CT person tell me that a slow taper is an illusion and lie, that we will be bedridden for 2 years once the taper is over, it was just ridiculous and not helpful in any way whatsoever.

 

I know there are people here on the site who stepped off in pretty good shape, some were back to work within a few months.

 

Slow is good, holds are also, keep well everyone.

 

 

[[ga...]]

 

Hope everyone is doing well.

 

I just went on a fb group and had a CT person tell me that a slow taper is an illusion and lie, that we will be bedridden for 2 years once the taper is over, it was just ridiculous and not helpful in any way whatsoever.

 

I know there are people here on the site who stepped off in pretty good shape, some were back to work within a few months.

 

Slow is good, holds are also, keep well everyone.

 

Thank you, Oscar. I am starting a hold today and that's just what I needed to hear.

 

Hope you are doing OK.

 

Gard

[[de...]]

SG I posted on the kk thread but also wanted you input .i seem to be at a place where i cant make the right decision..i held for just 2 weeks and started micro tapering only .001gms for 2 days and then holding a day..dry taper with a scale thats only 6% a month so really slow..it didnt get any better with the side effects but the heart palps and feeling like i was going nuts eased up..then i thought well if its not going to get better then i will just start again so then last thurs, i did the same rate by saturday night i had the throat closing up thing and now back to feeling like my head is going to explode and the heart palps are worse again..but i read that if you hold to long that your tolerance can get so bad you cant pull out..so i feel like i am damned if i do and damned if i dont..and i was planning on holding for maybe 6 months..i am down from 4mgs to 1.75 in 19 months and alot say thats fast with klonopin...any input would be appreciated from you. I dont know what to do and i know everyone is different but i feel as though my body and mind is shutting down from the taper..and V is not an option with my docs..and i am not wanting to try lt..just wondering if i took some time off could it help..i know Intend took a yr off to let herself catch up before she started tapering again and it helped..

 

thanks for any input

 

deep

[[...]]

SG I posted on the kk thread but also wanted you input .i seem to be at a place where i cant make the right decision..i held for just 2 weeks and started micro tapering only .001gms for 2 days and then holding a day..dry taper with a scale thats only 6% a month so really slow..it didnt get any better with the side effects but the heart palps and feeling like i was going nuts eased up..then i thought well if its not going to get better then i will just start again so then last thurs, i did the same rate by saturday night i had the throat closing up thing and now back to feeling like my head is going to explode and the heart palps are worse again..but i read that if you hold to long that your tolerance can get so bad you cant pull out..so i feel like i am damned if i do and damned if i dont..and i was planning on holding for maybe 6 months..i am down from 4mgs to 1.75 in 19 months and alot say thats fast with klonopin...any input would be appreciated from you. I dont know what to do and i know everyone is different but i feel as though my body and mind is shutting down from the taper..and V is not an option with my docs..and i am not wanting to try lt..just wondering if i took some time off could it help..i know Intend took a yr off to let herself catch up before she started tapering again and it helped..

 

thanks for any input

 

deep

 

Holding is a good thing and I think a long hold is a very good idea.  You held two weeks and got a small amount of relief.  What will several months do?  A lot of good if you ask me.  You don't like living this way, so don't.

[[de...]]

SG thanks so much i need a reassurance from people who have been there and you have never let me down..so maybe a hiatus is what i need to try and get stable..since i dont have anything backing me up..so a long hold i will do i guess 2 weeks wasnt really anything..

 

thanks for always being here for so many

 

hugs

 

deep

[[la...]]

Deep, just wanted to add that I agree...give your brain a bit of a rest. I am MT since a week ago .002g off daily and once I get down to 7 mg I too am going to take a "hiatus"

 

I am not racing through this again. Tried that once and failed horribly

 

so do what you need to do and pray for the best

[[...]]

SG thanks so much i need a reassurance from people who have been there and you have never let me down..so maybe a hiatus is what i need to try and get stable..since i dont have anything backing me up..so a long hold i will do i guess 2 weeks wasnt really anything..

thanks for always being here for so many

 

hugs

 

deep

 

Good move.  I think a hiatus is exactly what you need.  A problem with holds is people think two or three weeks is long and when they don't get significant relief they forge ahead feeling lousy.  The focus needs to be on being well at every point in the taper, not getting off.  The focus on getting off is a huge problem and most succumb to it (including me).

 

People set their expectations by what they see around them.  When everyone else is putting up with symptoms and suffering it is accepted as unavoidable and "just the way tapering is."  But that's not really true.  It does not have to be the case.  What's actually true is we allow it to be the case.  These days we have the tools to taper symptom-free (okay, nearly symptom-free).  We know how to accomplish this.  I don't know how to change the mindset, but I know tapering could be much less painful if everyone would just. slow. down. and insist on being symptom free.

[[la...]]

SG!!!!! I so needed to read that...last time I tapered I held once for 3 weeks and thought well I am no better so must forge ahead....never thinking that maybe a nother couple weeks would have made the difference.

 

when I threw in the towel last March and went onto Lorazepam it took well over a month before I started feeling better.

 

so I found that you can/may be able to do this without being in complete agony

 

I am going on until I get to 7 mgs and then going to rest it a bit

[[St...]]

SG, I just read what you wrote and I agree with it, but still wonder if LT is going to work for me...I started LT 11 days ago, and have felt an increase rather than decrease in my symptoms, and I haven't even gone down, just held at the .6mg.  Is this an indication that this is not right for me, if I get increase instead of decrease?  Stella

[[la...]]

Stella I do not have any experience personally but several of my friends here on BB could not tolerate LT for some reason...

 

 

so I would say that you may fall in that category

[[...]]

SG, I just read what you wrote and I agree with it, but still wonder if LT is going to work for me...I started LT 11 days ago, and have felt an increase rather than decrease in my symptoms, and I haven't even gone down, just held at the .6mg.  Is this an indication that this is not right for me, if I get increase instead of decrease?  Stella

 

That happens a lot when the switch to liquid is made...symptoms go up for a while.  It's actually quite normal although I can't say I understand why it happens.  I'd just sit tight for as long as it takes for things to settle down.

[[St...]]

Ok, thanks, the worst part is the anxiety and agitation is soooo bad, but if you think that will get better, I will keep holding....thanks so much for your reply!  Stella

[[la...]]

I KNOW...its debilitating

[[Sh...]]

I stayed at the same rate for a few extra days while switching on liquid... i work part pill part fat milk... and me also felt the difference i felt a lot of nausea and fatigue for 2 days... afterwards i started making cuts every day... i still feel things but they are manageable... some days more then the other... but if the problems stay or worsten for longer dan 2 - 3 days i hold.  Till now i didn't have to do that... hoping to keep it that way ! Positive note : i've had some really good days too !

[[de...]]

SG  I cant thank you enough for your last reply..and you hit it right on the head..after 2 weeks it seems like so long and we are getting nowhere..when we should be looking at holding for months to get relief not 2 weeks..i really needed to read that..i am going to try and not go up cause i know thats a bad thing but it has crossed my mind as i am so out of it mentally and physically so many symptoms to even list..and our so right the mind keeps telling us we just need off doesnt matter we need to keep pushing to get this poison out of our system..then i joined a fb group and they are all talking about benzos being banned and that scared me alot cause i was like well we could all die..and they said well everyone needs to keep getting closer to the end before it happens and then where would we get the drugs..they said some states are already doing urine tests and pill counts..and alot chimed in and said they had already been urine tested...so being scared of something like that also makes you think well hey if its going to take me say another 2 or 3 yrs to do this if i take 6 months or a yr off for me..then what would happen to me then..its a scary thought and one i cant forget now with this crazy benzo brain of mine..

 

thanks for all your help always..

 

hugs

 

deep

[[ga...]]

Deep, just wanted to add that I agree...give your brain a bit of a rest. I am MT since a week ago .002g off daily and once I get down to 7 mg I too am going to take a "hiatus"

 

I am not racing through this again. Tried that once and failed horribly

 

so do what you need to do and pray for the best

 

Add me. Got to whole caps and am holding. Maybe we could stat a MT and hold club.

[[jr...]]

does anyone know if opioids slow down the healing process? I take 2 hydrocodone (5/325) a day for back pain. I am at a low dose of Xanax but have been slammed with sxs

[[...]]

I found a site that lists hydrocodone as a 3A4 inhibitor and 3A4 is the enzyme that metabolizes X.  So this is saying that hydrocodone keeps your X around longer, basically increasing its half life for a while.  It does not create a shortage of X, it creates an excess.  We don't know how much excess and if it is enough to matter, or even if an excess is a bad thing.  But there it is.  My gut feeling is this is not the problem.

[[ar...]]

Looks like most from the Valium thread have moved to here.

 

I am doing well.  My baseline is improving and I am able to do more.  I am going slow/listening to my body at the end and it seems to be paying off so far.  Hopefully this trend continues...  Looking forward to Spring!!! 

 

Don't push through and try to hurry off or try to put an end date on it.  Listen to your body.  Your body will set your schedule.

[[jr...]]

I found a site that lists hydrocodone as a 3A4 inhibitor and 3A4 is the enzyme that metabolizes X.  So this is saying that hydrocodone keeps your X around longer, basically increasing its half life for a while.  It does not create a shortage of X, it creates an excess.  We don't know how much excess and if it is enough to matter, or even if an excess is a bad thing.  But there it is.  My gut feeling is this is not the problem.

 

Thanks Sg for that. that really makes sense as the hydrocodone offers me some relief from the sxs of tapering. I read your post about going really slow too late. I thought because I was on such a low dose that I could speed things up by taking a 33% cut! WRONG!! Live and learn huh? I notice you have been off for awhile and wondered how you are feeling? I hope all is well.

[[Mo...]]

Looks like most from the Valium thread have moved to here.

 

I am doing well.  My baseline is improving and I am able to do more.  I am going slow/listening to my body at the end and it seems to be paying off so far.  Hopefully this trend continues...  Looking forward to Spring!!! 

 

Don't push through and try to hurry off or try to put an end date on it.  Listen to your body.  Your body will set your schedule.

 

Hi Arcade!

Wonderful news. You are getting so close... No rush, indeed. It'll happen.

Thanks for the update.