Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[Mo...]]

I want to get rid of at least .5mg a month  in place of what I did before which was .5mg every two weeks

 

Hey Lainey..

I cant help you with the math on this . But i just wanted to say that I hope this new approach will do the trick.

Hang in there.

[[la...]]

Quote SG57:

"I've been there...I know what you are going through.  Yes, .031g is 5% of your dose so to reduce by that much every 14 days, divide by 14.  .031g/14=.0022g.  Round down to .002g.

 

In other words, shave off .002g from a 2mg pill each day to reduce 5% every 14 days."

 

once I have gotten to .138g, which will bring me to a total 7.125mg V total (14th of March)  that will be a 5% cut. how much to I cut from that to get another 5% off in 14 days?

 

I apologize my brain can not figure this out....and it should...I can not believe I am so brain dead

[[...]]

I want to get rid of at least .5mg a month  in place of what I did before which was .5mg every two weeks

 

.5mg a month is .017mg a day.  If you are shaving 2mg V pills that is .0118mg for each .001g on the scale, so .017mg would be .00144g a day.  Your scale can't do that, but you can come very close by alternating .001g (.0118mg) and .002g (.0236mg) cuts in a c2/c2/c2/c1 pattern.

 

In other words, cut .002g for three days then cut .001g for one day, then repeat the pattern.  This will simulate a .018mg a day rate and you will have cut .53mg over a month.

[[...]]

Quote SG57:

"I've been there...I know what you are going through.  Yes, .031g is 5% of your dose so to reduce by that much every 14 days, divide by 14.  .031g/14=.0022g.  Round down to .002g.

 

In other words, shave off .002g from a 2mg pill each day to reduce 5% every 14 days."

 

once I have gotten to .138g, which will bring me to a total 7.125mg V total (14th of March)  that will be a 5% cut. how much to I cut from that to get another 5% off in 14 days?

 

I apologize my brain can not figure this out....and it should...I can not believe I am so brain dead

 

5% of 7.125mg is .3625mg.  If this is a 2mg pill weighing .170g is would be .031g.

[[ga...]]

Looking forward to being part of this group. My introduction was just posted. I'm not having as smooth a time as I expected so looking for input. Hoping it's not hopeless cuz I'm

So kindled. Thanks everyone.

 

Welcome, liza. Could you please add a signature so we know where you're at? Hover over PROFILE and then choose FORUM PROFILE. At the bottom of that page you'll see a place you can add a signature that will show up each time you post.

 

It helps a lot when people give advice if they can see in your signature: what you're taking, your dosage, how long you took it, where you're at now, how fast you're tapering and what method, stuff like that. It can be updated any time you want, but there is a limit to the number of characters, so sometimes you have to delete stuff to add more.

 

That said, I don't give direct advice about tapering plans because I am too fuzzy brained. But the math and chemistry gurus on here will!

 

Gard

[[la...]]

Hi guys!

 

Do I need to special order a certain syringe to make smaller cuts than .01?

 

How the heck do you do that?

 

Thank you thank you

 

L

[[bu...]]

Builder,

 

I have .5 mg K pills.  How would I do the daily thing and how tough is the transition?  Any recommendations are appreciated.

 

Thanks!

 

Dissolve your .5 tablet in 1ml vodka or propylene glycol, and add 49ml water.  You now have 50ml of solution, each ml contains .01mg K.

 

So ...

.143mg=14.3ml

.142mg=14.2ml

.141mg=14.1ml

etc.

 

You can easily do this witha 10ml  and a 1ml syringe.

[[bl...]]

I had the worst night. I cut from .5 to .25 about 9 days ago and hand numbness and feeling swollen started around day 5/6. It subsided but was back again all night--worse than ever. I had hoped that it had peaked. What is happening? I can't sleep it's so painful. Anyone? Is this normal? UGH!

[[Hi...]]

Hi,  this is Erin,  Chris girl friend,  he really needs help setting up a taper plan,  he is really setting his mind to it this time and  could really use the help.  He is on 7.5mg of atavan 3 times a day.  The 2mg one weighs 0.300 and the .5mg pill weighs 0.075. If anyone could help that would be amazing. We need help with the math part.  Thank you

[[ga...]]

I had the worst night. I cut from .5 to .25 about 9 days ago and hand numbness and feeling swollen started around day 5/6. It subsided but was back again all night--worse than ever. I had hoped that it had peaked. What is happening? I can't sleep it's so painful. Anyone? Is this normal? UGH!

 

I'm sorry you're having these symptoms. We don't do or recommend big cuts on this thread. We do daily micro-tapering.

 

You might want to be asking this on the Withdrawal Support forum. Or the Cut and Hold thread. Here is the Cut and Hold thread:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97834.3040  etown is sort of the "guru" over there. Very helpful guy.

[[ga...]]

Hi,  this is Erin,  Chris girl friend,  he really needs help setting up a taper plan,  he is really setting his mind to it this time and  could really use the help.  He is on 7.5mg of atavan 3 times a day.  The 2mg one weighs 0.300 and the .5mg pill weighs 0.075. If anyone could help that would be amazing. We need help with the math part.  Thank you

 

Erin, I am sorry, I do not do math at all. I am too fuzzy-brained.

 

Hip has such a complicated history, I think some people may be hesitant to give advice even if they are reading his posts. We don't know if we would be saying the wrong thing.

 

I also suspect that, at this point, some people have Hip on "ignore" meaning they cannot see his posts.

 

Have you considered opening your own account so you can be a support to him? I have seen friends and relatives do that who have a loved one in a bad place.

 

Hip is very, very fortunate to have you. Many of us are tapering alone. Thank you for sticking with him. Please take care of yourself.

 

Gard

[[Ma...]]

Hi,  this is Erin,  Chris girl friend,  he really needs help setting up a taper plan,  he is really setting his mind to it this time and  could really use the help.  He is on 7.5mg of atavan 3 times a day.  The 2mg one weighs 0.300 and the .5mg pill weighs 0.075. If anyone could help that would be amazing. We need help with the math part.  Thank you

Erin,

I second everything Gardner is saying. I have posted to Hip in the past, but I am not sure how to help. It is very sad what he is going through. I am glad he has a great support system in you. I think his health issues like his liver make this a situation where a Dr is needed. Like Gardner said we don't know if we are saying the wrong thing or not. Also the different meds make it confusing. I also don't understand kindling. I hope things get easier for him soon! I know others are thinking the same thing.

 

XO Maya

[[Mo...]]

Hi,  this is Erin,  Chris girl friend,  he really needs help setting up a taper plan,  he is really setting his mind to it this time and  could really use the help.  He is on 7.5mg of atavan 3 times a day.  The 2mg one weighs 0.300 and the .5mg pill weighs 0.075. If anyone could help that would be amazing. We need help with the math part.  Thank you

Erin,

I second everything Gardner is saying. I have posted to Hip in the past, but I am not sure how to help. It is very sad what he is going through. I am glad he has a great support system in you. I think his health issues like his liver make this a situation where a Dr is needed. Like Gardner said we don't know if we are saying the wrong thing or not. Also the different meds make it confusing. I also don't understand kindling. I hope things get easier for him soon! I know others are thinking the same thing.

 

XO Maya

 

Hi Erin,

I third this.

There seems to be so much more going on than benzo withdrawal. His hep C, the methadone,gabapentin. Each time he comes back from hospital or c/t he has added more benzo. I am not sure what to say..

We are just not equiped to give any advice on these health issues, what to do, how to get off of it, what first,what rate. I personallynwould be scared to say the wrong thing.

My heart goes out to Chris. Glad you are with him. It must be horror for him right now.

 

 

I have written him a complete taper plan twice. And I know that Challis has done the same.

It is a taper plan to how much He wanted to cut. Off ativan 6 mgr.

If you browse here on this thead , earlier posts a while back, it will still be there, compkete with a large picture of a spread sheet. Im too woozy to go get it but all the info is here.

Good luck to you too. Sorry aboutnyour situtaion

 

[[ga...]]

Hey, gang. I have been taking 7 5mg capsules of L per day. I dose 3 times/day. So my system has been to take 2 whole caps 3 times/day and dissolve the 7th capsule to make 100ml, pitch, then divide the liquid into 3 equal portions. So I have been taking 2 caps and a portion of another capsule as liquid 3 times/ day.

 

Well tomorrow, I take the last tiny bit of that 7th capsule.    That leaves me with 6 capsules to taper in 3 daily doses.

I think the only way to do this is to put one whole capsule in each of the jars and dissolve/dilute it to 100ml and then pull and pitch from each jar. So that will be taking one whole capsule and a portion a whole liquified capsule 3 times/day.

This wastes a lot of of L and triples the alcohol. But I don't see any other way of doing it.

Also, I have been inching my taper rate up and have been pitching out 3ml/day from the 100ml. The 100ml is one 5mg capsule dissolved. Other than bouts of extreme fatigue and increased anxiety (still issues with agoraphobia and inability to tolerate highway speeds plus added jitteriness that comes and goes, but not as bad as when I was tapering the X), and the neuropathy that comes and goes, it has not been too bad.

 

By extreme fatigue, I mean I sit and stare and barely chew and don't even have the energy to listen to the radio. My brain and body just hurt so much. Yet I think  I am sleeping about the same as I have been, bad but not horrible.  I am learning to pace myself and put one foot in front of the other to get through those days. Then I will suddenly have some hours when I feel almost normal and able to get stuff done. Sometimes a whole day I just feel tired and can go about my day and get a lot done. Then crash back into exhaustion again. It's very weird. Haven't had this as a symptoms before. But I will say I prefer it to the jumping out of my skin I had with the X withdrawal. That extreme rarely happens now.

 

So, here I am on the cusp of a new phase. Is my system the right way to go? I mean dissolving 3 capsules now since I am at 6 capsules and dosing times/day. So that means 9ml alcohol/day to do the dissolving. Seems like a lot to me. And then I would pitch 1 ml from each of the three jars the first day, and then 2 ml from each, and then 3ml from each, etc. That's right, right? And should I keep going at the pace as long as I find the symptoms tolerable? Or is this sort of exhaustion a sign I'm going too fast?

I will add that I am not working but I haven't in a long time because of my autoimmune problems. So I can actually be non-functional some days and live (thanks to my daughter). Just to make this more complicated, autoimmune stuff can cause fatigue, too. As well as L. As well as gabapentin which I take for my Restless Leg Syndrome. As can Seroquel which I take for sleep 2 nights on one night off. I sit and try to figure out the pattern and which drug could be causing this, if maybe I should reduce the gabapentin, or if it's the taper. My daughter says, "Mom, it's random! The exhaustion, the neuropathy, all your symptoms. They just comes and goes with no pattern so just stop trying to figure it out." She's 23 so she knows everything!

 

Hey, SG, builder I made the the blue italicized parts are especially for you so you can skip the chatter. And I'm going now to do my last mixing and measuring of capsule number 7!

[[...]]

Hi Gard,

 

You seem to have improved from where I remember you were so my question is why are you trying to inch up the rate?  It seems to me if you have found a rate that has improved things I'd stick with it.

 

On your dose split, the inability to split the 5mg caps makes it hard to do things exactly even.  What you propose will get it done.  I think I would choose to go a little unbalanced and stay with one liquid cap at a time.  That's just me.  It is not far our of balance so I think I would prefer that over adding in so much liquid, but either should work.  Your method should work fine.

[[ga...]]

Hi Gard,

 

You seem to have improved from where I remember you were so my question is why are you trying to inch up the rate?  It seems to me if you have found a rate that has improved things I'd stick with it.

 

On your dose split, the inability to split the 5mg caps makes it hard to do things exactly even.  What you propose will get it done.  I think I would choose to go a little unbalanced and stay with one liquid cap at a time.  That's just me.  It is not far our of balance so I think I would prefer that over adding in so much liquid, but either should work.  Your method should work fine.

 

Thanks, SG. I should clarify that I've inched up to the 3 ml/day cut rate and have been doing that for a couple of weeks and will stick with it. Now that I am dosing 3 times instead of 2 I seem to be able to cut faster. I have no idea what percentage that is, though.

 

So what you're saying is I could take just one dose, say my morning dose, and liquify one capsule and get rid of that and then do the same to the afternoon dose and the same to the evening dose? So it would be 1+liquid - 2 - 2. Then 1 - 1+liquid -2. Etc.?

 

Only liquifying one sure sounds tempting! Just would make the day go easier. And I love getting rid of a capsule. I would get to do that more often with your method!

 

But I felt so bad when I was dosing only twice that I think I may be very sensitive to uneven-ness. (From what I've read and can maybe understand, Librium converts to active metabolites that have different half lives. So it has built-in uneven-ness.) So I am going back and forth on the pros and cons on triple-liquifying vs single liquifying.

 

Well, I have 24 hours to think it over.

 

I cut down my gabapentin tonight to see if I can sleep on less and am wide awake so I really do have a whole lot of hours to think it over. Perhaps I should watch my Andy Griffith DVDs instead, right? I have 6 seasons. That should last all night and then some!

 

Gard

 

[[...]]

Hi Gard,

 

You seem to have improved from where I remember you were so my question is why are you trying to inch up the rate?  It seems to me if you have found a rate that has improved things I'd stick with it.

 

On your dose split, the inability to split the 5mg caps makes it hard to do things exactly even.  What you propose will get it done.  I think I would choose to go a little unbalanced and stay with one liquid cap at a time.  That's just me.  It is not far our of balance so I think I would prefer that over adding in so much liquid, but either should work.  Your method should work fine.

 

Thanks, SG. I should clarify that I've inched up to the 3 ml/day cut rate and have been doing that for a couple of weeks and will stick with it. Now that I am dosing 3 times instead of 2 I seem to be able to cut faster. I have no idea what percentage that is, though.

 

So what you're saying is I could take just one dose, say my morning dose, and liquify one capsule and get rid of that and then do the same to the afternoon dose and the same to the evening dose? So it would be 1+liquid - 2 - 2. Then 1 - 1+liquid -2. Etc.?

 

Only liquifying one sure sounds tempting! Just would make the day go easier. And I love getting rid of a capsule. I would get to do that more often with your method!

 

But I felt so bad when I was dosing only twice that I think I may be very sensitive to uneven-ness. (From what I've read and can maybe understand, Librium converts to active metabolites that have different half lives. So it has built-in uneven-ness.) So I am going back and forth on the pros and cons on triple-liquifying vs single liquifying.

 

Well, I have 24 hours to think it over.

 

I cut down my gabapentin tonight to see if I can sleep on less and am wide awake so I really do have a whole lot of hours to think it over. Perhaps I should watch my Andy Griffith DVDs instead, right? I have 6 seasons. That should last all night and then some!

 

Gard

 

I go back and forth too.  I was thinking about it and I take back what I said.  I think I would liquify all three.  But I guess my waffling means it does not matter a lot...either will work.  Librium does not have built-in unevenness, I can assure you of that.  Consider the metabolites as part of the drug.  I think saying that you are sensitive to unevenness is a statement that you are sensitive to interdose symptoms.  Enough unevenness will result in interdose symptoms eventually, if you are sensitive to it.  If that is the case then maybe liquifying all three is best.  If you don't want to use so much alcohol, just get a higher proof.  I forget what proof you are using.

 

On your cut rate, 3ml a day is 4.5m a month.  If your dose is 35mg that is 12.8% a month...well within the usual range.  Honestly, looking back on my experience, if it were me I'd be trying to find a rate that was improving how I felt as I tapered.  The goal is to feel normal while tapering and it is attainable.  If you have symptoms you are not satisfied with I'd encourage you to commit to cutting slower for a few months and see where it gets you as far as symptom reduction.

[[li...]]

Did anyone see my post from yesterday?

[[ga...]]

 

I go back and forth too.  I was thinking about it and I take back what I said.  I think I would liquify all three.  But I guess my waffling means it does not matter a lot...either will work.  Librium does not have built-in unevenness, I can assure you of that.  Consider the metabolites as part of the drug.  I think saying that you are sensitive to unevenness is a statement that you are sensitive to interdose symptoms.  Enough unevenness will result in interdose symptoms eventually, if you are sensitive to it.  If that is the case then maybe liquifying all three is best.  If you don't want to use so much alcohol, just get a higher proof.  I forget what proof you are using.

 

On your cut rate, 3ml a day is 4.5m a month.  If your dose is 35mg that is 12.8% a month...well within the usual range.  Honestly, looking back on my experience, if it were me I'd be trying to find a rate that was improving how I felt as I tapered.  The goal is to feel normal while tapering and it is attainable.  If you have symptoms you are not satisfied with I'd encourage you to commit to cutting slower for a few months and see where it gets you as far as symptom reduction.

 

How about I flip a coin? 

 

I guess it's safe to assume that if I needed 6 X doses/day and the same liver enzyme metabolizes them both (at least the first phase of the L), then I guess I shouldn't be surprised that I need 3 doses of the L. And it would be sensible to liquify all 3 caps. It's not that much harder to do 3 than to do one. I'm using 3ml of 80 proof. I guess I will keep doing that because it gives a good amount of liquid to swish around in for the initial dissolve .

 

Well, my daughter has now flipped a coin and declared we are dissolving 3 capsules. 

 

I guess I should ask on the Withdrawal Support thread if anybody else has had bouts of extreme fatigue as their main symptom. Now that I am on L, I take 3 sedating meds. And this all started with a severe sleep disorder, so I am chronically sleep deprived. I don't know if the fatigue is from the taper or from the cumulative effects of all that stuff. Other symptoms are tolerable.

 

As of tomorrow, my dose is 30 mg of L. I suspect I'm still well within the normal range at 3ml/day off of 100ml=5mg. Now that I am over the shock of the final cross, I seem to be able to tolerate that rate, not thrive but tolerate, at least for now. I suspect I will have to slow down at some point. Seems most people do.

 

Onward!

 

Gard

[[Mo...]]

Dear Gard,

About the extreme fatique.. There were days , weeks, as if I was wading through cement. I just literally could not make it upstairs, soooooo exhausted.

It came up like that in phases.

[[ga...]]

Did anyone see my post from yesterday?

 

I think you might want to re-post your question. You might also try the liquid titration board. Sometimes weekends are slow on this thread.

[[ga...]]

Dear Gard,

About the extreme fatique.. There were days , weeks, as if I was wading through cement. I just literally could not make it upstairs, soooooo exhausted.

It came up like that in phases.

 

Hi Moo. Wow, that sounds just like me. Like wading in cement. This is so different from my experience with X. I do think being on 3 meds is a player in this, too, but I can only get off one at a time and I hate the benzo the most!

 

And speaking of cement, I think my brain and fingers are filling up with it right now. Gotta take a break. 

 

Gard

[[...]]

How about I flip a coin? 

 

I guess it's safe to assume that if I needed 6 X doses/day and the same liver enzyme metabolizes them both (at least the first phase of the L), then I guess I shouldn't be surprised that I need 3 doses of the L. And it would be sensible to liquify all 3 caps. It's not that much harder to do 3 than to do one. I'm using 3ml of 80 proof. I guess I will keep doing that because it gives a good amount of liquid to swish around in for the initial dissolve .

 

Well, my daughter has now flipped a coin and declared we are dissolving 3 capsules. 

 

I guess I should ask on the Withdrawal Support thread if anybody else has had bouts of extreme fatigue as their main symptom. Now that I am on L, I take 3 sedating meds. And this all started with a severe sleep disorder, so I am chronically sleep deprived. I don't know if the fatigue is from the taper or from the cumulative effects of all that stuff. Other symptoms are tolerable.

 

As of tomorrow, my dose is 30 mg of L. I suspect I'm still well within the normal range at 3ml/day off of 100ml=5mg. Now that I am over the shock of the final cross, I seem to be able to tolerate that rate, not thrive but tolerate, at least for now. I suspect I will have to slow down at some point. Seems most people do.

 

Onward!

 

Gard

 

Oh, okay.  I thought your dose was 35mg.  For 30mg you are at 15% a month.  That's getting up there.  And it keeps inching up with every cut.  For example, the same cut at 25mg would be 18% a month.

 

I believe low cut rates are a powerful thing for symptomatic people as they add a lot of time to the taper.  That translates into a lot of extra healing during the taper, as time is exactly what is required to restore receptors.  Let's say you are symptomatic and your body can keep up with 15% a month, but you decide to cut at 10% anyway.  What happens to the extra 5% of healing capacity you are not using?  Does it go to waste?  I don't think so...not if you are symptomatic.  I think your body will use it and go to work on existing symptoms.  I think, over time, existing symptoms will go away.  If your fatigue and insomnia are symptoms it stands to reason they will go away if you taper below your full capacity.  It may take months, but it is logical that that is what will eventually happen.

[[ga...]]

How about I flip a coin? 

 

I guess it's safe to assume that if I needed 6 X doses/day and the same liver enzyme metabolizes them both (at least the first phase of the L), then I guess I shouldn't be surprised that I need 3 doses of the L. And it would be sensible to liquify all 3 caps. It's not that much harder to do 3 than to do one. I'm using 3ml of 80 proof. I guess I will keep doing that because it gives a good amount of liquid to swish around in for the initial dissolve .

 

Well, my daughter has now flipped a coin and declared we are dissolving 3 capsules. 

 

I guess I should ask on the Withdrawal Support thread if anybody else has had bouts of extreme fatigue as their main symptom. Now that I am on L, I take 3 sedating meds. And this all started with a severe sleep disorder, so I am chronically sleep deprived. I don't know if the fatigue is from the taper or from the cumulative effects of all that stuff. Other symptoms are tolerable.

 

As of tomorrow, my dose is 30 mg of L. I suspect I'm still well within the normal range at 3ml/day off of 100ml=5mg. Now that I am over the shock of the final cross, I seem to be able to tolerate that rate, not thrive but tolerate, at least for now. I suspect I will have to slow down at some point. Seems most people do.

 

Onward!

 

Gard

 

Oh, okay.  I thought your dose was 35mg.  For 30mg you are at 15% a month.  That's getting up there.  And it keeps inching up with every cut.  For example, the same cut at 25mg would be 18% a month.

 

I believe low cut rates are a powerful thing for symptomatic people as they add a lot of time to the taper.  That translates into a lot of extra healing during the taper, as time is exactly what is required to restore receptors.  Let's say you are symptomatic and your body can keep up with 15% a month, but you decide to cut at 10% anyway.  What happens to the extra 5% of healing capacity you are not using?  Does it go to waste?  I don't think so...not if you are symptomatic.  I think your body will use it and go to work on existing symptoms.  I think, over time, existing symptoms will go away.  If your fatigue and insomnia are symptoms it stands to reason they will go away if you taper below your full capacity.  It may take months, but it is logical that that is what will eventually happen.

 

I was at 35mg (7 caps) but have tapered down to 30mg (6 caps) as of tomorrow. I will probably not keep the 3 ml/day up for long. Definitely don't want to be approaching 20%. I know that's too fast for me. Guess I'll be back to doing round robin again when I drop to 2ml/day. And I think that will be much simpler with the 3 capsules in 3 jars method.

 

One thing that I don't quite understand is the whole issue of bio-accumulation. Isn't it true that the longer I taper, the more drug I'm taking, and the more L is bioaccumulating in my tissues? And then I have to deal with a longer post-withdrawal problem because I have all the more drug in my body? Or is it released again into the bloodstream while I am still tapering? I know this is off topic, but it's something I have never understood. Do you have information on this or know where I can find it somewhere on BB? Thanks.

[[Sh...]]

Long time since I was here. Hope everyone is doing well, or as well as possible, all things considered.  At .75mg from 1mg as of March 1.  Slow progress as I started Sept 1, 2015.  I am sensitive to cuts and have to work full time.  A bit more anxiety this weekend. Sometimes I wish I could go faster, but as long as I am cutting, that is progress.

 

Take care everyone!

Stay strong!

Shaani