Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[ga...]]

 

:thumbsup:

 

Hi Gardner,

 

I was just thinking about you and wondered how you were doing.  I do not post much on the forum anymore, so I thought I would PM you. The PM doesn't work so now I am posting on the micro taper board.  Things have been crazy at work, and I am just trying to keep things going. I really hope that you are doing better.  The last post I read of yours was about your new doctor and how you were worried that he/she will not keep prescribing.  I know the feeling. I am also worried my doc will stop prescribing, but I do have a lot of tablets stockpiled, so unless I have to updose or hold for too long I should be okay.

 

Things are certainly not going as well with this taper.  I remember my first taper being a breeze compared to this.  I hold more than I cut.  I have been holding again for the last three weeks. I did not have to hold once during my first taper. I have only cut from 0.240 mg/day down to 0.216 mg a day since Christmas.  It is crazy.  I have days where I feel great, and then the symptoms hit.  It has been pretty bad at times.  It is hard to believe that such a small dosage can cause so much havoc in life.

 

Well, I had better get to bed. I have a long long day tomorrow at work.

 

I hope that you are having a better time of  it now.

 

((HUGS))  Anne xoxox

 

Hi Anne! Yes, I have my PM's turned off at the moment. Wasn't able to do much of anything for awhile, so turned them off.

 

I saw you post on some other threads that it's been rough for you and I was sad about that. I can't imagine trying to teach and taper at the same time. I guess that holding is just sometimes what we have to do to make our lives work. It can be so frustrating, though. I held for a week recently and got impatient and started up again very slowly with the daily cuts. Very, very tiny daily cuts. It's a psychological thing, making cuts so small they are almost meaningless, and yet they are cuts so I'm not standing still. SG suggested it and I think it's a good compromise for me. I call it my micro-micro-taper.

 

I have started using a daily guided meditation and mindfulness program for reducing pain and anxiety. I actually think it helps even though I am the world's worst meditator. Having the voice to guide me helps and that the meditations only 10 minutes helps. Some days I can do them and some days not. But I keep on doing them the best I can.

 

I hope your doctor will keep prescribing. I think mine will (knock wood). She is not anti-benzo, she is just unfamiliar with Librium. I really, really want to stay with the L and not have to cross to something else. The last bit of the crossover really was painful. And my brain was really unhappy when it lost its X. And for longer than I expected. I am so glad that's behind me and don't want to do it again.

 

Speaking of tired, me, too. Most of the time.  I wonder if it's the L. I think it is sedating. Should hit the sack now, too. Hope to hear things improve for you soon.

 

Gard

[[ba...]]

I'm trying to get organized for a Valium pill to combo of pill/liquid for a daily/MT (just getting over a miserable cold/sinus infection, ugh, so hope to begin in a week or so-ish). Some of you may have seen my appeal on here a week or so ago asking if liquid v was available in Canada; I'd been told it wasn't by a pharmacist, but in fact it is . So got that sorted.

 

Haven't seen my doc yet, but he'll likely?! be okay with giving me an LV scrip. Assuming he does, and I have the choice of using milk, vodka, or LV I thought I'd take a poll re: what people with experience have preferred. I know we're all sooo different I'll just have to be my own guinea pig-oink -as usual, but still curious to know what may work for more people, anyway.

 

I'm sure builder and SG57 in particular are tired of reassuring newbie MT folks that "it's not complicated!" etc., but I've heard enough people say the LV really bugged their stomach to want to find out more. Does it really happen that much? If folks do have a stomach challenge causing them to switch to milk/vodka, is there any common explanation?

 

I.E. do most members take LV on an empty stomach, or with food? I'd like to try LV since it's slightly? more simple than mixing a pill in liquid myself, but would really not like to have to switch after having a problem . If anyone has any comments, that would be great and most appreciated! I'd really like to be a member of the daily/MT club with as little fuss/sxs as possible !!

 

p.s. Apologies  ::)re: multiple post of this-just trying to get as much feedback as possible! Sorry to hear of folks with LV problems ...say it ain't [so common!?], builder or SG57?!

[[ph...]]

I can only speak for myself ... no problems adjusting to part of my valium made liquid w/vodka and water.  Now builder my have a different take on my story as he spelled it out step by step ... and it was appreciated!

[[ga...]]

bab, I switched to the liquid rx form of X to taper. No trouble with the switch and it was so simple to just dilute it with water. Much easier than trying to make your own liquid. If you're worried, you could hold for a week on the liquid to give your body a chance to adjust. I use L now that I have to liquify myself and sure do miss the ease of the rx liquid X. But not the X part!

[[la...]]

Could use a little help, I feel really alone.

 

I have been holding 24.075 mg of Librium for two weeks now.

I had a window for a few hours last night, which is always nice right?

There are so many opinions they have my head spinning.

I think in a week or two I may start hacking off .001 mg using my liquid or should I keep holding? Horrific symptoms last week and still having some nasty hits this week. But better from the first two weeks I up dosed. The wall I hit at 12.5 mg (incorrectly liquifying librium..we think) is something I do not like to think back on. My face turned red, it was like my brain cut my oxygen off, I choked and I had indescribable neuro symptoms. I thought I was going to end up in an ambulance.

 

I hope this extreme micro taper works...also speaking of "daily" do I just keep going each day with say .001 or .005mg? Or do I hold. I know some may say "that is basically not tapering" but I feel it will work best for me and for my mental health..

 

L 

 

[[bu...]]

You just keep tapering until your body tells you not to. 

[[...]]

Could use a little help, I feel really alone.

 

I have been holding 24.075 mg of Librium for two weeks now.

I had a window for a few hours last night, which is always nice right?

There are so many opinions they have my head spinning.

I think in a week or two I may start hacking off .001 mg using my liquid or should I keep holding? Horrific symptoms last week and still having some nasty hits this week. But better from the first two weeks I up dosed. The wall I hit at 12.5 mg (incorrectly liquifying librium..we think) is something I do not like to think back on. My face turned red, it was like my brain cut my oxygen off, I choked and I had indescribable neuro symptoms. I thought I was going to end up in an ambulance.

 

I hope this extreme micro taper works...also speaking of "daily" do I just keep going each day with say .001 or .005mg? Or do I hold. I know some may say "that is basically not tapering" but I feel it will work best for me and for my mental health..

 

L 

 

The window is encouraging, and the fact that you seem to have improved over last few weeks is also a very good sign.  As Builder said, as long as nothing is worse you can keep cutting.  The trend needs to remain towards getting better.  Don't allow your condition to worsen.

[[la...]]

Could use a little help, I feel really alone.

 

I have been holding 24.075 mg of Librium for two weeks now.

I had a window for a few hours last night, which is always nice right?

There are so many opinions they have my head spinning.

I think in a week or two I may start hacking off .001 mg using my liquid or should I keep holding? Horrific symptoms last week and still having some nasty hits this week. But better from the first two weeks I up dosed. The wall I hit at 12.5 mg (incorrectly liquifying librium..we think) is something I do not like to think back on. My face turned red, it was like my brain cut my oxygen off, I choked and I had indescribable neuro symptoms. I thought I was going to end up in an ambulance.

 

I hope this extreme micro taper works...also speaking of "daily" do I just keep going each day with say .001 or .005mg? Or do I hold. I know some may say "that is basically not tapering" but I feel it will work best for me and for my mental health..

 

L 

 

The window is encouraging, and the fact that you seem to have improved over last few weeks is also a very good sign.  As Builder said, as long as nothing is worse you can keep cutting.  The trend needs to remain towards getting better.  Don't allow your condition to worsen.

 

I feel horrible tonight but yes last night is encouraging. I thank you for all of your advice even if I repeat myself 10 million times. Your help really has an impact. Thank you again

[[ba...]]

phoebe and gardener, thanks so much for sharing your experiences re: daily/MT, and liquid valium; every little bit of info is helping me make my decision easier ! Take care, everyone-Bab.

[[ga...]]

phoebe and gardener, thanks so much for sharing your experiences re: daily/MT, and liquid valium; every little bit of info is helping me make my decision easier ! Take care, everyone-Bab.

 

[[ga...]]

lalasharp, From your signature, you've been through some really rough stuff. You could still be feeling that. If you really want to move forward, you could figure out a very slow taper micro-taper rate and maybe just cut every other day? See how that feels? I've done stuff like that. And I've also done holding and also teeny tiny daily micro tapers. Whatever works. I really hate holding, but did it for a whole month once. Then decided to cross to L and was able to take up tapering again after my brain got over the shock of losing its X. And I did it slowly and carefully, not like what happened to you.

 

That you're having windows is a good sign. Listen to your body. You will eventually adjust and figure out a pace that works for you. I'm saying that to myself, too, as I try to get my feet back under me. Feeling discouraged by my fatigue not improving and barely able to get through the day. Now typing to try to keep awake until bedtime. Anyway, hope I'm making sense! Take my advice with a grain of salt when I'm half asleep. 

 

Gard

[[an...]]

 

 

Hi Anne! Yes, I have my PM's turned off at the moment. Wasn't able to do much of anything for awhile, so turned them off.

 

I saw you post on some other threads that it's been rough for you and I was sad about that. I can't imagine trying to teach and taper at the same time. I guess that holding is just sometimes what we have to do to make our lives work. It can be so frustrating, though. I held for a week recently and got impatient and started up again very slowly with the daily cuts. Very, very tiny daily cuts. It's a psychological thing, making cuts so small they are almost meaningless, and yet they are cuts so I'm not standing still. SG suggested it and I think it's a good compromise for me. I call it my micro-micro-taper.

 

I have started using a daily guided meditation and mindfulness program for reducing pain and anxiety. I actually think it helps even though I am the world's worst meditator. Having the voice to guide me helps and that the meditations only 10 minutes helps. Some days I can do them and some days not. But I keep on doing them the best I can.

 

I hope your doctor will keep prescribing. I think mine will (knock wood). She is not anti-benzo, she is just unfamiliar with Librium. I really, really want to stay with the L and not have to cross to something else. The last bit of the crossover really was painful. And my brain was really unhappy when it lost its X. And for longer than I expected. I am so glad that's behind me and don't want to do it again.

 

Speaking of tired, me, too. Most of the time.  I wonder if it's the L. I think it is sedating. Should hit the sack now, too. Hope to hear things improve for you soon.

 

Gard

 

Gardner,

 

It sounds like you are doing better.  You have some good tools to help you through this.  Very very small cuts are good.  You are getting closer to the goal of being off.  Slow is the key. 

 

Take care of yourself.

((HUGS)) Anne xoxox

 

[[la...]]

lalasharp, From your signature, you've been through some really rough stuff. You could still be feeling that. If you really want to move forward, you could figure out a very slow taper micro-taper rate and maybe just cut every other day? See how that feels? I've done stuff like that. And I've also done holding and also teeny tiny daily micro tapers. Whatever works. I really hate holding, but did it for a whole month once. Then decided to cross to L and was able to take up tapering again after my brain got over the shock of losing its X. And I did it slowly and carefully, not like what happened to you.

 

That you're having windows is a good sign. Listen to your body. You will eventually adjust and figure out a pace that works for you. I'm saying that to myself, too, as I try to get my feet back under me. Feeling discouraged by my fatigue not improving and barely able to get through the day. Now typing to try to keep awake until bedtime. Anyway, hope I'm making sense! Take my advice with a grain of salt when I'm half asleep. 

 

Gard

 

Hey Gard! Yes...it's been horrific. BUT you know what is crazy? I stabilized in the hospital on 30 mg of L and felt great! It took three days to stabilize. Weird...

It's been 20 weeks since my last K and 17 since my last X plus the Ativan shots they gave me before I saw my doc.

Ugh. I wish I could sleep during the day. Naps..I miss naps.

I do want to move forward. I am thinking in the .001 mg - .005 mg range every other day or so. I want to be extra careful. Hopefully I do not hit that death wall I hit last cut which I think was 17% at once?

Tonight was not good but the window last night gives me a little glimpse of hope.

I look forward to hearing more from you! It's cool we're both on Librium. Not a lot of those. I wonder why..

Thanks for being an awesome buddy!

 

L 

[[Hi...]]

How does a mt work with a scale. If im on 2.5 mg ativan 3x a day totsl of 7.5 each 2mg pill weighs .300 and each .5mg pill weighs .75 how much would i taper each day .001? That would take 3 years but i dont know how much i could handle honestly as im in full blown acute as far as symptoms go. Seriously. Someone please help me with the math i keep asking someone started helping me once then they are no longer here my requests for a taper setup keepggetting brushed over. Cant anyone help? Please

[[ga...]]

 

Hey Gard! Yes...it's been horrific. BUT you know what is crazy? I stabilized in the hospital on 30 mg of L and felt great! It took three days to stabilize. Weird...

It's been 20 weeks since my last K and 17 since my last X plus the Ativan shots they gave me before I saw my doc.

Ugh. I wish I could sleep during the day. Naps..I miss naps.

I do want to move forward. I am thinking in the .001 mg - .005 mg range every other day or so. I want to be extra careful. Hopefully I do not hit that death wall I hit last cut which I think was 17% at once?

Tonight was not good but the window last night gives me a little glimpse of hope.

I look forward to hearing more from you! It's cool we're both on Librium. Not a lot of those. I wonder why..

Thanks for being an awesome buddy!

 

L 

 

Hey, lala! In the US, Librium is mostly used in hospitals for detox. My psych told me because it's cheap! My primary thought it was a weird, old-fashioned drug good only for detoxing alcoholics and rolled her eyes. My psychiatrist thought it was a fine way to get me off of X. He hates X and was not the one to put me on  it.

 

I am a super-fast metabolizer of Valium, so I thought I'd try Librium. Big nuisance that it only comes in capsules here, but I have gotten pretty good at opening them and dissolving them. Used to spill them all over the place. When I am really fuzzy, my daughter does it for me. She had to move home (out of her dorm) to come help me get through this taper. Now she commutes to campus from home. I feel bad about that, but she seems OK with it.

 

Can't remember, are you in the US? How do you do your L taper? I use 5 mg capsules, dissolve one in alcohol, dilute to 100ml, pull and pitch, then divide in into 3 jars for the day.

 

Used to be on here more but the cross to L , my long-term therapist abruptly discharging me (I think she thought I was an addict in denial), and my son's departure (got sick of being with a sick mom and wanted a life), and my psychiatrist announcing he was leaving in March kind of knocked me over. Still trying to get my feet back under me. Am considering a hold once I get to an even number of capsules so I don't have to dilute during it. Could get there next week!

 

Onward! (I say even holds count as onward.)

 

Gard

[[ga...]]

Gardner,

 

It sounds like you are doing better.  You have some good tools to help you through this.  Very very small cuts are good.  You are getting closer to the goal of being off.  Slow is the key. 

 

Take care of yourself.

((HUGS)) Anne xoxox

 

You, too!

[[la...]]

 

Hey Gard! Yes...it's been horrific. BUT you know what is crazy? I stabilized in the hospital on 30 mg of L and felt great! It took three days to stabilize. Weird...

It's been 20 weeks since my last K and 17 since my last X plus the Ativan shots they gave me before I saw my doc.

Ugh. I wish I could sleep during the day. Naps..I miss naps.

I do want to move forward. I am thinking in the .001 mg - .005 mg range every other day or so. I want to be extra careful. Hopefully I do not hit that death wall I hit last cut which I think was 17% at once?

Tonight was not good but the window last night gives me a little glimpse of hope.

I look forward to hearing more from you! It's cool we're both on Librium. Not a lot of those. I wonder why..

Thanks for being an awesome buddy!

 

L 

 

Hey, lala! In the US, Librium is mostly used in hospitals for detox. My psych told me because it's cheap! My primary thought it was a weird, old-fashioned drug good only for detoxing alcoholics and rolled her eyes. My psychiatrist thought it was a fine way to get me off of X. He hates X and was not the one to put me on  it.

 

I am a super-fast metabolizer of Valium, so I thought I'd try Librium. Big nuisance that it only comes in capsules here, but I have gotten pretty good at opening them and dissolving them. Used to spill them all over the place. When I am really fuzzy, my daughter does it for me. She had to move home (out of her dorm) to come help me get through this taper. Now she commutes to campus from home. I feel bad about that, but she seems OK with it.

 

Can't remember, are you in the US? How do you do your L taper? I use 5 mg capsules, dissolve one in alcohol, dilute to 100ml, pull and pitch, then divide in into 3 jars for the day.

 

Used to be on here more but the cross to L , my long-term therapist abruptly discharging me (I think she thought I was an addict in denial), and my son's departure (got sick of being with a sick mom and wanted a life), and my psychiatrist announcing he was leaving in March kind of knocked me over. Still trying to get my feet back under me. Am considering a hold once I get to an even number of capsules so I don't have to dilute during it. Could get there next week!

 

Onward! (I say even holds count as onward.)

 

Gard

 

Yes I am in the US! I have been told Librium is very similar to Valium. My psych said it would make withdrawals easier and ease it's way out of the system and it is not as dangerous as the others! My compound pharmacist makes it up for me! I use 5 mg too!!! I pray for you..

For this is not easy!

[[ga...]]

 

Yes I am in the US! I have been told Librium is very similar to Valium. My psych said it would make withdrawals easier and ease it's way out of the system and it is not as dangerous as the others! My compound pharmacist makes it up for me! I use 5 mg too!!! I pray for you..

For this is not easy!

 

Yes, L is similar to V in its metabolites and half life and supposedly a gentler withdrawal. Ashton does keep L users on L for their tapers and switches all others to V. Curious about what your psych meant by not as "dangerous," and especially why he chose it over V. I was the one who made that choice and my psych went along with it. My primary wanted K or V. Very glad the psych was here, if only for a year. He got me crossed. Couldn't have done it without him. Very grateful.

[[la...]]

 

Yes I am in the US! I have been told Librium is very similar to Valium. My psych said it would make withdrawals easier and ease it's way out of the system and it is not as dangerous as the others! My compound pharmacist makes it up for me! I use 5 mg too!!! I pray for you..

For this is not easy!

 

Yes, L is similar to V in its metabolites and half life and supposedly a gentler withdrawal. Ashton does keep L users on L for their tapers and switches all others to V. Curious about what your psych meant by not as "dangerous," and especially why he chose it over V. I was the one who made that choice and my psych went along with it. My primary wanted K or V. Very glad the psych was here, if only for a year. He got me crossed. Couldn't have done it without him. Very grateful.

 

 

Hmm. I think he meant not as dangerous a KPIN or XANAX. Not as strong. Yes I am happy for you!!! Good  choice. I wonder why I never got crossed and now I am scared that I was not crossed properly but that was back in Oct/Early November. Too late now. I guess what is done is done. My head bothers me like no other.. advil and aleeve just don't cut it anymore!

[[My...]]

Do you all feel each and every cut?  I am in a c/h/h/h pattern.  Symptoms seem to be worse on the third day.

 

Thoughts?

[[...]]

Do you all feel each and every cut?  I am in a c/h/h/h pattern.  Symptoms seem to be worse on the third day.

 

Thoughts?

 

I did not do dry cuts with a scale...others can speak to that, but you might be able to soften the blow by switching to liquid and cutting .00075mg each day rather than cutting .003mg and waiting to recover.

[[bu...]]

Do you all feel each and every cut?  I am in a c/h/h/h pattern.  Symptoms seem to be worse on the third day.

 

Thoughts?

 

When I was doing C&H, yes, I felt every cut!

 

With a daily taper, I really never felt any cut.

[[My...]]

Builder,

 

I have .5 mg K pills.  How would I do the daily thing and how tough is the transition?  Any recommendations are appreciated.

 

Thanks!

[[la...]]

A 2mg V pill weighing .168g means each .001g on the scale is .0119mg V.  A 5% cut off 7.5mg is .375mg, which is .031g.  So you'd need to make the 2mg pill weigh .031g less.

 

I'd urge you to consider breaking that cut up into smaller cuts.  It does not have to be daily microtaper to get some benefit out of cutting smaller.  You can still reduce the shock some by breaking it into smaller cuts.

 

I would not worry about the scale being off by a little.  It is much more important that it reproduce the same measurement than it is to be absolutely accurate.

I want to make the cuts smaller and I am sorry if I sound ignorant...math was/is not my strong point (although right now I have NO "strong" point)  so I take the .031 and divide that by 14 and that's what I shave off everyday?  I guess what I now need to know is what do I shave off each day? 

 

I can then slow this down and do some holds in between days too....just do not want to become any sicker then I already am!!!    thank you SG for taking the time for me

 

SG, I need to have someone spell it out for me because I can not think at ALLLLLLL

 

 

so this Monday will be when I am "due" to cut again

 

 

what schedule do you suggest I try, what shall I cut each day say

 

I've been there...I know what you are going through.  Yes, .031g is 5% of your dose so to reduce by that much every 14 days, divide by 14.  .031g/14=.0022g.  Round down to .002g.

 

In other words, shave off .002g from a 2mg pill each day to reduce 5% every 14 days.

 

THANK YOU...you are the best....can not tell you how much I appreciate your time and help

[[li...]]

Looking forward to being part of this group. My introduction was just posted. I'm not having as smooth a time as I expected so looking for input. Hoping it's not hopeless cuz I'm

So kindled. Thanks everyone.