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Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group


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Hey everybody,

 

Just a little question ... your prepare your liquid (in my case full milk) in the evening and put it in the refrigarator till morning to use... ? Should you sturr the liquids in the morning again and drink the liquid after night storage in the fridge ? And prepare what you don't need in the evening and throw it away ? And if you'd like to make 2 doses one for tomorrow and one for the day after is that also a possibility ? Or should it be made the night before ? Thanks for the answer !

Grtz

Sh x

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Finally read through all of this. Thanks, everyone. So just to be clear, I can dilute the liquid Valium with water, right?

  You absolutely can...and you absolutely should!!
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If you need two doses then getting rid of one is not the thing to do.  If you only need one dose then it does not matter.  Since you are currently on 1mg AM and 2mg PM what you might do is make 1mg of your evening dose liquid and leave the AM dose the same, then taper just the PM dose until it equals the AM dose.  Or you could just make them even now with 1mg pill and .5mg liquid for each dose.

 

thanks, Because Im not sure if I can keep only one dose at the end for less confussion.  But im afraid for interdose withrawal?

 

I know that, it will come to one dose only when i go down to the end -which i prefer only one those/day.  Any suggestion if i will go for one dose at 2 mg it will be possible and what time is the best time to take/ just leave evening at 7pm as what is my current schedule or change the time during the day.  Highly appreciated any kind of suggestion IN YOUR OWN OPINION ==All My BB's.

 

love, MCM

 

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I pushed too hard my entire taper.  My taper was ignorant and ill-informed.  It was a mess.  I thought if I could just get through it, all would quickly be well when I reached zero.  That has not happened.  Not even close.  My recovery has been much longer than my taper (and my taper was long!).  What happened?  I injured myself by pushing.  Now that I have been through the mill I know how these drugs work.  They do long-term damage to the CNS if you push.  Whatever these injuries are, they are very long-term, but they can be avoided.

 

My opinion is to do whatever it takes to keep symptoms near zero.  If you are not happy with the way you feel then the goal is not to keep pressing ahead; the goal is to get back to a satisfactory place no matter where you are in your taper.  Why not take three months off?  Why not cut only 5% a month?  Why not updose?  I suppose this level of patience goes against human nature, yet it is what is required.

 

I did this also, I lost 70% of my dose in 7.5 months and was incredibly sick and now I cannot taper even the smallest cuts without feeling horrific, something is clearly wrong and so I have been holding for a year now and I feel so, so much better, a bit traumatized by the previous taper but I am likely going to give it another year to truly allow my nervous system a chance to heal and have a bloody good rest...

 

I am at 2.8mg Valium, I will likely try and get down to 2mg and then I will have another taper break for as long as is necessary and do it that way...

 

I see people push all the time here and as far as I can tell, if someone feels bad when they taper at the lower doses, they sure as heck won't feel much better once off, sure, it's possible but from what I can see on this site, anyone who sets a date and pushes through usually has to wait out a pretty long healing time post taper any way, if we heal as we taper and hold, then why make it harder than it has to be?

 

Impatience is the enemy in benzo withdrawal, too many here just want to be done and that's what ultimately messes people up for years post taper, as a long term user, I can't afford to bomb off this drug, nor do I intend to push myself into feeling bad symptoms simply to get to a certain dose milestone, I have come undone in this taper enough and it's just too painful.

 

I will be happy to park at 2mg Valium when I finally do get to that dose and then take another rest, maybe even for a year or even to years... as long as I am able to stabilize and live a life, I don't really care how long this takes me now, for me, quality of life comes first.

 

Very interested to read that!

 

I don't get on here much, but I just want to add that after 45+ years of benzo use, 2 CT w/ds and one Ashton Crossover, I am on my LAST taper.  Due to serious sxs experienced while doing the Ashton Crossover again this time, I got help here on BBs for a micro taper and started on that nearly a year ago. My "progress" has really slowed down, but my quality of life doing the MT is soooooo much better -- and I have cut my benzo use by a little more than 80% in just less than 18 months.

 

Although I am not totally sx free, I am actually functional -- I exercise, drive, work, sleep, travel and LIVE my life as best I can while still tapering. I have finally realized that for me, slow MT with amount of cuts and schedule of cuts based on SYMPTOMS and not a on a time line seems to work best. I have gotten to the point where, except for concerns about how the medical industry views my "taper plan" and fears they might cut off my Rx, I find the MT with V surprisingly easy and stress free. I don't fixate on amounts or schedules, I just make sure that I going down, down, down in dose no matter how small the increments.

 

Because V has such a long half life and I'm cutting at such low doses (.02-.05 mgs per day) and holding when I feel like I need to, I also am NOT preoccupied with the whole taper thing. I simply mix my titration liquid, which is 1 mg V (1/2 a 2mg tablet) into 1 ml Gray's 195 proof ethyl alcohol, add 99 mls water and store in an air tight brown glass bottle so I can pull what ever amount my dose for the day is out using a 10 ml syringe. The rest of my dose I take in dry tablet form. The titration liquid lasts for several days and I'm never too worried about getting every little dose perfect. With V and such small cuts there seems to be quite a lot of squiggle room -- and with such small cuts I can hold BEFORE I start to have seizure episodes since I now recognize that an elevated heart rate, headache and vertigo are sxs are telling me I need to hold. Once those sxs abate, I start MTing again.

 

I began this taper in November if 2014 at about the equivalent of 30 mgs V (I crossed from L, which made everything sooooo much better for me!) and I hope to be done by the end of this year. Not my original plan by any means when I started with the Ashton, but given my age, my health issues and my long history of use, it seems to be working for me where the Ashton most definitely was not.

 

I do have concerns about what happens when I finally jump...when the V stored in my body runs out, will I get slammed? Am I prolonging damage to my brain by taking V for even longer (ironic considering how long I've been on the stuff!)? Am I really going to be able to function without Benzos after taking them for so long? Will / can my brain heal at my age? But, I also realized I that due to my health issues I might not be able to get off the Benzos any other way and the Benzos were causing me problems so I decided that if there was a way to do it that keeps my life manageable and my health relatively stable, then I'd try it and keep hanging onto the hope that this way really is going to work out for me in the end.

 

Thanks to all you BBs who blazed the path, shared your stories, helped me do the math and continue to support and inspire me!

 

Mo

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thanks, Because Im not sure if I can keep only one dose at the end for less confussion.  But im afraid for interdose withrawal?

 

I know that, it will come to one dose only when i go down to the end -which i prefer only one those/day.  Any suggestion if i will go for one dose at 2 mg it will be possible and what time is the best time to take/ just leave evening at 7pm as what is my current schedule or change the time during the day.  Highly appreciated any kind of suggestion IN YOUR OWN OPINION ==All My BB's.

 

love, MCM

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I do have concerns about what happens when I finally jump...when the V stored in my body runs out, will I get slammed? Am I prolonging damage to my brain by taking V for even longer (ironic considering how long I've been on the stuff!)? Am I really going to be able to function without Benzos after taking them for so long? Will / can my brain heal at my age? But, I also realized I that due to my health issues I might not be able to get off the Benzos any other way and the Benzos were causing me problems so I decided that if there was a way to do it that keeps my life manageable and my health relatively stable, then I'd try it and keep hanging onto the hope that this way really is going to work out for me in the end.

 

Thanks to all you BBs who blazed the path, shared your stories, helped me do the math and continue to support and inspire me!

 

Mo

 

Glad to hear your taper is working out.

 

If you keep yourself feeling well like you have, when you get to zero you will be able to step off and you will continue to feel as you felt while tapering, getting slowly better with time.

 

When you taper the concentration of receptors is increased each day, each month.  Things are being put back to normal.  To me this says the direction is toward less dependency, not more.  So to me it does not make sense that we become more dependent with long tapers.  I think dependency would increase with holding for a long time, but not when tapering.  I think dependency is going down even though the drug is still present.  The damage is lessening and this is what dependency is - damage.

 

How do you feel now?  Are you functioning without benzos?  These drugs stop working within months are starting them so I think all of us have been "functioning without benzos" for most of the time we used them.  Their sole purpose quickly becomes keeping us out of withdrawal.

 

You already have proof of healing.  Your dose is 80% lower and you feel pretty good.  There is no better definition of healing.  That would not happen without your brain adding back receptors.  You're healing just fine.

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thanks, Because Im not sure if I can keep only one dose at the end for less confussion.  But im afraid for interdose withrawal?

 

I know that, it will come to one dose only when i go down to the end -which i prefer only one those/day.  Any suggestion if i will go for one dose at 2 mg it will be possible and what time is the best time to take/ just leave evening at 7pm as what is my current schedule or change the time during the day.  Highly appreciated any kind of suggestion IN YOUR OWN OPINION ==All My BB's.

 

love, MCM

 

If you do not need two doses that's great, but if you do I'd encourage you to keep dosing twice til the very end.

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Good morning,

I'm not sure, but I may have hit a wall....haven't slept well in three nights which makes me feel fragile and irritable and scared.  I've posted about MT before - and you have helped me.  I've questioned whether a crossover to V would help.  My fear is that I won't heal and be OK tapering off Klonopin.  Also, I have been dealing with a hip injury for which I got a cortisone injection las Weds.  I think that may have something to do with the difficulty sleeping, though I slept fine the night of the shot and the next one as well.  But I have a lot of pain from the shot and in the area...also making the sleep hard as I wake up with pain.  Doubt this is benzo related other than possible increased sensitivity to pain.

 

So, I'm stuck, psychologically and physically.  I have walked 40 min to an hour a day for most of my taper and it has worked well to relieve muscle tension and anxiety. But for the past few months I've not been able to do much walking and since the shot - zero, doctors orders.  Was in PT and felt I was making progress w/out injection but had a few setbacks so PT and doc suggested it.

 

Anyhow...my hip will heal (fingers crossed) but the taper question remains.

 

Crash..if you are reading this...you were able to taper successfully off K without crossing.  Seems like not many are.  What to do?  SG, I know you suggest MT and that may be the way to go....just not sure of anything right now.  I don't do well on little sleep...I know you can relate.

 

Any thoughts re where I go from here would be appreciated.  I only mention the hip issue b/c I'm not dealing well with that on top of withdrawal.  Feeling frightened when I wish to feel confident!!

 

Thanks  :smitten:

Mana

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SG,

I have what is probably a stupid ques. As I get lower, the interdose wd gets worse. The same thing with K. It is not bad. I can be a bit uncomfortable for an hr. If I go to four doses would I just stay on four doses until the end? I see a lot go to less doses. I don't know if they don't have ID WD and that's why or it makes more sense as you get really low. Also having four doses at the end could maybe get tricky becasue they have to be so small. I am thinking if I am going to go to 4 doses 20mgs might be a good time becasue then I can take 4 5mg pills. Thank you!

 

XO Maya

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Good morning,

I'm not sure, but I may have hit a wall....haven't slept well in three nights which makes me feel fragile and irritable and scared.  I've posted about MT before - and you have helped me.  I've questioned whether a crossover to V would help.  My fear is that I won't heal and be OK tapering off Klonopin.  Also, I have been dealing with a hip injury for which I got a cortisone injection las Weds.  I think that may have something to do with the difficulty sleeping, though I slept fine the night of the shot and the next one as well.  But I have a lot of pain from the shot and in the area...also making the sleep hard as I wake up with pain.  Doubt this is benzo related other than possible increased sensitivity to pain.

 

So, I'm stuck, psychologically and physically.  I have walked 40 min to an hour a day for most of my taper and it has worked well to relieve muscle tension and anxiety. But for the past few months I've not been able to do much walking and since the shot - zero, doctors orders.  Was in PT and felt I was making progress w/out injection but had a few setbacks so PT and doc suggested it.

 

Anyhow...my hip will heal (fingers crossed) but the taper question remains.

 

Crash..if you are reading this...you were able to taper successfully off K without crossing.  Seems like not many are.  What to do?  SG, I know you suggest MT and that may be the way to go....just not sure of anything right now.  I don't do well on little sleep...I know you can relate.

 

Any thoughts re where I go from here would be appreciated.  I only mention the hip issue b/c I'm not dealing well with that on top of withdrawal.  Feeling frightened when I wish to feel confident!!

 

Thanks  :smitten:

Mana

 

You need to be in tune with what symptoms are from the taper so you know when they are ramping up and you can intercept them.  If sleep issues are on the rise I would hold or reduce cut rate.

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SG,

I have what is probably a stupid ques. As I get lower, the interdose wd gets worse. The same thing with K. It is not bad. I can be a bit uncomfortable for an hr. If I go to four doses would I just stay on four doses until the end? I see a lot go to less doses. I don't know if they don't have ID WD and that's why or it makes more sense as you get really low. Also having four doses at the end could maybe get tricky becasue they have to be so small. I am thinking if I am going to go to 4 doses 20mgs might be a good time becasue then I can take 4 5mg pills. Thank you!

 

XO Maya

 

I'd say if you need four doses then it makes sense to remain on four.  I don't know why the amount of needed doses would change as we taper, but it does seem to happen to some people.  If you use liquid, the dosing problems go away and it does not become a problem at the end.

 

You could also try to even things up more.  Dose size differences, as well as early or late dosing, contribute to the same effect as fewer doses: any imbalance in these will increase peaks and troughs in your blood levels.  Where you are so sensitive to interdose symptoms it might be that their effect is enough to feel.

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SG,

Thank you! I think I will just go to 4 doses tomorrow. I do get sick of cutting. With four doses that can be eight pills each day. I need to get over it. I am a little afraid of liquid becasue I am afraid I will metabolize it faster. I have had issues metabolizing tinctures too fast. My genes for metabolizing meds are crazy. I have woken up during anasethesia. I always need a lot more pain killers afterward and stronger ones and sooner then others. Anyway, I guess I will probably just have to have 4 very tiny doses at the end. Maybe I will try liquid at 15-10mgs. I just do get scared that I will metabolize it too fast. Also I would have to carry syringes with me.

 

I try to keep my doses as even as possible. I try to dose every 8 hrs with 3 doses. I just sleep more than 8 hours lately and also by the time I take my dose it can be 10 hours. I can have issues where I wake up and don't fall back asleep and that's why I don't want to set an alarm to dose. For me it is important to dose as evenly as possible. I wish at night I could just wake up take a dose and go back to sleep. Any insights on how to dose or liquid would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for you helping me!

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SG,

Thank you! I think I will just go to 4 doses tomorrow. I do get sick of cutting. With four doses that can be eight pills each day. I need to get over it. I am a little afraid of liquid becasue I am afraid I will metabolize it faster. I have had issues metabolizing tinctures too fast. My genes for metabolizing meds are crazy. I have woken up during anasethesia. I always need a lot more pain killers afterward and stronger ones and sooner then others. Anyway, I guess I will probably just have to have 4 very tiny doses at the end. Maybe I will try liquid at 15-10mgs. I just do get scared that I will metabolize it too fast. Also I would have to carry syringes with me.

 

I try to keep my doses as even as possible. I try to dose every 8 hrs with 3 doses. I just sleep more than 8 hours lately and also by the time I take my dose it can be 10 hours. I can have issues where I wake up and don't fall back asleep and that's why I don't want to set an alarm to dose. For me it is important to dose as evenly as possible. I wish at night I could just wake up take a dose and go back to sleep. Any insights on how to dose or liquid would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for you helping me!

 

Going from dry pills to liquid is a trade-off.  But I think on balance liquids are more accurate and less work.  I know what you mean about being hesitant to make a switch and the odds seem to be that you would feel symptoms if you did switch...most people seem to.  But I think it would be short-lived.  After all, the pill quickly turns to liquid in the stomach.

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It definitely seems like liquids are more accurate and less work. I tend to metabolize liquids faster than pills. I thought most people did with meds in general. That is my biggest worry about liquids. I don't want to metabolize any faster! I would be ok with a week for my body to adjust unless I don't tolerate it or I metabolize it faster. Sigh, I feel like with me everything is more confusing than it already is. I am sure many feel the same.
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It definitely seems like liquids are more accurate and less work. I tend to metabolize liquids faster than pills. I thought most people did with meds in general. That is my biggest worry about liquids. I don't want to metabolize any faster! I would be ok with a week for my body to adjust unless I don't tolerate it or I metabolize it faster. Sigh, I feel like with me everything is more confusing than it already is. I am sure many feel the same.

 

Hi Maya :smitten:

Sorry its such a rough journey.

 

When i started using liquid, i replaced 0.5 mgr with it and held for about two weeks.

Maybe , If you would want to go that route, you could do the same and see if you notice a significant difference and go back on tabs only if it doesnt serve you better...

 

I understand the worries. You know what you got and dont know for sure how the liwuid would work. I totally get that.

I was nervous about it, too. But i am happy i tried.

 

:hug:

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It definitely seems like liquids are more accurate and less work. I tend to metabolize liquids faster than pills. I thought most people did with meds in general. That is my biggest worry about liquids. I don't want to metabolize any faster! I would be ok with a week for my body to adjust unless I don't tolerate it or I metabolize it faster. Sigh, I feel like with me everything is more confusing than it already is. I am sure many feel the same.

  Just FYI, benzos are metabolized in the liver, not the digestive tract.  The liver doesn't know how the med got there.
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Hi Moo,

Thank you! It has been a rough journey. I am actually doing better now than I have most of my taper. Not that I feel great.

 

That is a good idea. I think I will try it a little later on when I would need the precision more. I think I will end up trying a little at first like you. Thank so much for sharing that.

 

I am extra paranoid because of my ultra metabolizing being an issue. I was so paranoid about doing a C/O, but I am SO glad that I did. Thanks for reminding me it doesn't hurt to try something new and I can always go back. I am glad it worked so well for you. I hope you are having a good day!

 

XO Maya  :smitten:

 

builder,

Thanks, I am aware. My liver enzymes are the issue. I had genetic testing. I am a rapid metabolizer of most meds. I tend to see that I seem to metabolize liquids faster...I am not sure why. It may not be that way with V. I am going off of ER visits mostly with liquid. I won't know unless I try, I guess.

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Maya,

 

Another thing to think about is you can keep most of your dose as is in pill form and just liquify 1 or 2mg at a time.  You're in the 20's somewhere so less than 10% of your dose would be liquid.  Maybe even less than 5%.  The rest would remain the same.

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Hi Moo,

Thank you! It has been a rough journey. I am actually doing better now than I have most of my taper. Not that I feel great.

 

That is a good idea. I think I will try it a little later on when I would need the precision more. I think I will end up trying a little at first like you. Thank so much for sharing that.

 

I am extra paranoid because of my ultra metabolizing being an issue. I was so paranoid about doing a C/O, but I am SO glad that I did. Thanks for reminding me it doesn't hurt to try something new and I can always go back. I am glad it worked so well for you. I hope you are having a good day!

 

XO Maya  :smitten:

 

builder,

Thanks, I am aware. My liver enzymes are the issue. I had genetic testing. I am a rapid metabolizer of most meds. I tend to see that I seem to metabolize liquids faster...I am not sure why. It may not be that way with V. I am going off of ER visits mostly with liquid. I won't know unless I try, I guess.

 

Maya, i replaced just 0.5 mgr with liquid throughout my taper. And reduce with  that.

Each time i had reduced 0.5 after a week or two, id replace the next 0.5.

You could do the same with 1 mgr.

mine was compound liquid so wasnt bound to 1 or 2 mgr tablets to dissolve.

 

Ugh, sorry, im tired. My spelling and english suffer when i get like this.

And i get too lazy to watch it ;D

 

 

 

Im glad youre at least okay-ish...

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SG,

Sorry to post all over the place!  But I read your reply here and think you may be right...it's hard  to say which is causing the inability to return to sleep @ 5 a.m.  The hip pain, the worry about same, the taper or all of it combined! 

 

We'll see come Thursday...if I'm still not sleeping I will definitely hold....

 

Thanks.

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SG,

I didn't realize before that people didn't make all their doses liquid. I think tomorrow I will add in the 4th dose. Then I will give liquid a chance around 15 or 10mgs. I also will want to be more careful about accuracy at the end. Thanks a lot for all your help!

 

Moo,

Thank you! I am going to be cutting 1mg at once right now. I think I will try something like you did around 15-10mgs. Mine would have to be prescription, probably. You used a compounding pharmacy to get smaller amounts? I also see some choose to make it and not get it rxed. I would hope to get my pdoc to write a script. It seems that would be easier, but I don't know a lot about liquid. Your spelling is good. I would never have guessed English wasn't your first language. Thanks! I am doing ok. I just am having a little interdose wd as I have lowered my V dose, but I think I will add a 4th dose tomorrow and that will help. I hope you get some rest!

 

XO Maya  :smitten:

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I do have concerns about what happens when I finally jump...when the V stored in my body runs out, will I get slammed? Am I prolonging damage to my brain by taking V for even longer (ironic considering how long I've been on the stuff!)? Am I really going to be able to function without Benzos after taking them for so long? Will / can my brain heal at my age? But, I also realized I that due to my health issues I might not be able to get off the Benzos any other way and the Benzos were causing me problems so I decided that if there was a way to do it that keeps my life manageable and my health relatively stable, then I'd try it and keep hanging onto the hope that this way really is going to work out for me in the end.

 

Thanks to all you BBs who blazed the path, shared your stories, helped me do the math and continue to support and inspire me!

 

Mo

 

Glad to hear your taper is working out.

 

If you keep yourself feeling well like you have, when you get to zero you will be able to step off and you will continue to feel as you felt while tapering, getting slowly better with time.

 

When you taper the concentration of receptors is increased each day, each month.  Things are being put back to normal.  To me this says the direction is toward less dependency, not more.  So to me it does not make sense that we become more dependent with long tapers.  I think dependency would increase with holding for a long time, but not when tapering.  I think dependency is going down even though the drug is still present.  The damage is lessening and this is what dependency is - damage.

 

How do you feel now?  Are you functioning without benzos?  These drugs stop working within months are starting them so I think all of us have been "functioning without benzos" for most of the time we used them.  Their sole purpose quickly becomes keeping us out of withdrawal.

 

You already have proof of healing.  Your dose is 80% lower and you feel pretty good.  There is no better definition of healing.  That would not happen without your brain adding back receptors.  You're healing just fine.

SG, HI,  I don't think I've posted on this thread before. My posts throughout the forum are sporadic at best. :(  I've been holding at 15mgs for about 3 months for a number of reasons.  I've done a lot of reading on daily tapering, supplies needed, etc. I even have the liquid valium RX. Cut and hold is not an opton anymore. The sxs are to severe.

 

I am overwhelmed by the daily taper process.  ..I don't know why..I can't even make a decision as to what bottles, syringes, etc to purchase. No less think about the spreadsheet part. (There's no one at home to help me.)  My perfectionist nature is on overdrive obsessing over the smallest details, and then I freeze. In your experience have other BBs had a difficult time starting a daily taper?  Have I held too long?

 

I'm frustrated with myself and my brain which is on a perpetual vacation.  :tickedoff:

 

Thanks for any advice  you can offer.  :)

Left

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Hi everyone,

 

I have started to daily micro taper with liquid librium made from my pharmacy.

I have been doing .005 a day since this past Wednesday (when I started) and am thinking about taking it by .001??

 

I don't feel well and have been disabled for 4 months now...I want my life back desperately.

 

I am at .5 equivalent or a little under right now with the librium.. so would .001 be reasonable? I have seen it written here a lot.

 

Thanks!

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SG, HI,  I don't think I've posted on this thread before. My posts throughout the forum are sporadic at best. :(  I've been holding at 15mgs for about 3 months for a number of reasons.  I've done a lot of reading on daily tapering, supplies needed, etc. I even have the liquid valium RX. Cut and hold is not an opton anymore. The sxs are to severe.

 

I am overwhelmed by the daily taper process.  ..I don't know why..I can't even make a decision as to what bottles, syringes, etc to purchase. No less think about the spreadsheet part. (There's no one at home to help me.)  My perfectionist nature is on overdrive obsessing over the smallest details, and then I freeze. In your experience have other BBs had a difficult time starting a daily taper?  Have I held too long?

 

I'm frustrated with myself and my brain which is on a perpetual vacation.  :tickedoff:

 

Thanks for any advice  you can offer.  :)

Left

 

I have to believe if you have held for three months that you have gotten something out of it.  Your body is always working to set things right.

 

Daily tapers are not difficult to begin.  You've got liquid V.  That's a great start.  All you need are a 1ml and a 10ml syringe and some old jars in your kitchen to begin.  You don't need a spreadsheet.  A spiral notebook is fine.

 

How much do you dose with pills and liquid?  How many doses a day?

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Hi everyone,

 

I have started to daily micro taper with liquid librium made from my pharmacy.

I have been doing .005 a day since this past Wednesday (when I started) and am thinking about taking it by .001??

 

I don't feel well and have been disabled for 4 months now...I want my life back desperately.

 

I am at .5 equivalent or a little under right now with the librium.. so would .001 be reasonable? I have seen it written here a lot.

 

Thanks!

 

I can't make out what your numbers mean.  What dose?  What cut size?

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