Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[an...]]

Shakemarieke,

 

Either way will work.  Placing the pill in the 100 mL of milk, 1 mL of water, crushing the pill first, etc.  I used to crush mine before adding the liquid.  This provides the reassurance that the pill does break up. As you say, once you get into this, the more confident you will be.

 

I use a couple of mL of alcohol for my 0.5 mg tablet.  When I add the alcohol to the pill, it takes a long time for the pill to "disintegrate" but if I  add just a couple of mL of water it breaks up immediately.

 

Anne

[[Sh...]]

Thanks Anne ! x Insecurity can be a real dragggg !! 

[[Mo...]]

My pharmacist supposed this because you can see in water what's happening... and in milk not.... so if i dissolve in the milk and let it rest for 10 min everything will be dissolved ?

 

 

Yes, with water you can see the pill fall apart but then what ? It won't dissolve in water.

 

By the way, if you use milk, you will have little clumps in it. That does not mean your pill didn't dissolve. Whatever is left over are fillers of the tablet. The Valium itself will dissolve in the milk, because of the milk fat.

  But Moo, like so many things here on BB, if it 1) gives her some reassurance, and 2) doesn't really compromise the methd, then it's all good! 

 

Of course ! Of course....

 

Maybe sometimes I'm just overly worried that people worry about the clumps and whatnot and that it really is fine.

I've not heard that people first put it in water and then in milk. I'm sure it's all fine and if it gives reassurance I'm all for that. That's all I always try to bring across. That people don't need to be scared.

Maybe I just go a bit over board sometimes. I just know this can be so worrisome and wish people get it right and not do all sorts of stuff to their benzo. I dunno...

 

Anyway, thanks Builder,

[[Sh...]]

Doesn't matter ! I'm glad for any kind of support I get.. you're all great ! Just that i'm setting my priorities straight ! I know  my schedule now,... what to do... and how to do it ! You're all more of a help to me than you know ! Trying things out tomorrow... putting into the refrigerator and starting on Monday !

[[bu...]]

My pharmacist supposed this because you can see in water what's happening... and in milk not.... so if i dissolve in the milk and let it rest for 10 min everything will be dissolved ?

 

 

Yes, with water you can see the pill fall apart but then what ? It won't dissolve in water.

 

By the way, if you use milk, you will have little clumps in it. That does not mean your pill didn't dissolve. Whatever is left over are fillers of the tablet. The Valium itself will dissolve in the milk, because of the milk fat.

  But Moo, like so many things here on BB, if it 1) gives her some reassurance, and 2) doesn't really compromise the methd, then it's all good! 

 

Of course ! Of course....

 

Maybe sometimes I'm just overly worried that people worry about the clumps and whatnot and that it really is fine.

I've not heard that people first put it in water and then in milk. I'm sure it's all fine and if it gives reassurance I'm all for that. That's all I always try to bring across. That people don't need to be scared.

Maybe I just go a bit over board sometimes. I just know this can be so worrisome and wish people get it right and not do all sorts of stuff to their benzo. I dunno...

 

Anyway, thanks Builder,

  Its really pretty obvious that many (most?) folks here worry obsessively about the mechanics and details of a taper process.  But they are already anxious, apprehensive, fearful, so I guess that's to be expected.  So any little thing that gives any kind of reassurance is probably helpful.

 

And just FYI for all you that do obsess about the mechanics of a liquid taper, here is really all there is to it:  1) Plop your pill in a liquid that will dissolve it, and 2) just take less and less each day.  That's really all there is to it.  You do those 2 things, and you will be OKI! :)

[[ba...]]

I like your simplification, builder ! For those of us inclined to overthink and dither, KISS, or just get on with it, already ("drop pill in liquid" etc.). Thanks!!

[[Sh...]]

Thanks Builder !!!!!

[[os...]]

 

 

I pushed too hard my entire taper.  My taper was ignorant and ill-informed.  It was a mess.  I thought if I could just get through it, all would quickly be well when I reached zero.  That has not happened.  Not even close.  My recovery has been much longer than my taper (and my taper was long!).  What happened?  I injured myself by pushing.  Now that I have been through the mill I know how these drugs work.  They do long-term damage to the CNS if you push.  Whatever these injuries are, they are very long-term, but they can be avoided.

 

My opinion is to do whatever it takes to keep symptoms near zero.  If you are not happy with the way you feel then the goal is not to keep pressing ahead; the goal is to get back to a satisfactory place no matter where you are in your taper.  Why not take three months off?  Why not cut only 5% a month?  Why not updose?  I suppose this level of patience goes against human nature, yet it is what is required.

 

I did this also, I lost 70% of my dose in 7.5 months and was incredibly sick and now I cannot taper even the smallest cuts without feeling horrific, something is clearly wrong and so I have been holding for a year now and I feel so, so much better, a bit traumatized by the previous taper but I am likely going to give it another year to truly allow my nervous system a chance to heal and have a bloody good rest...

 

I am at 2.8mg Valium, I will likely try and get down to 2mg and then I will have another taper break for as long as is necessary and do it that way...

 

I see people push all the time here and as far as I can tell, if someone feels bad when they taper at the lower doses, they sure as heck won't feel much better once off, sure, it's possible but from what I can see on this site, anyone who sets a date and pushes through usually has to wait out a pretty long healing time post taper any way, if we heal as we taper and hold, then why make it harder than it has to be?

 

Impatience is the enemy in benzo withdrawal, too many here just want to be done and that's what ultimately messes people up for years post taper, as a long term user, I can't afford to bomb off this drug, nor do I intend to push myself into feeling bad symptoms simply to get to a certain dose milestone, I have come undone in this taper enough and it's just too painful.

 

I will be happy to park at 2mg Valium when I finally do get to that dose and then take another rest, maybe even for a year or even to years... as long as I am able to stabilize and live a life, I don't really care how long this takes me now, for me, quality of life comes first.

[[os...]]

 

What I am saying above is I think we DO damage ourselves if we push and that prolongs recovery, I know, as a long term user, I would likely be protracted any way as my cuts hurt too much after my initial fast taper but who knew starting out that a year was too fast? I know better now...

 

I swear, if I had to do this all over again, I would have taken 5-6 years to taper, I truly believe it would have been almost painless to do it at that rate... but it is what it is, I think another year of holding will see me good to start a new microtaper that will get me down to 2mg Valium equivalent without too many problems... and there I will hold again for awhile and bask in the glory of that milestone.

 

I have been on this stuff so many years, getting to 2mg Valium in good shape would be a huge accomplishment in my view... I might even stay at that dose for some considerable time...

[[os...]]

 

Builder, please can you help me out here?

 

You were stuck at 9mg for some time, you then held for 2 years, do you feel that 2 years enabled you to heal so you could start to taper again??? I know MT helped you but do you think that 2 year break allowed healing to happen?

 

Also, in your opinion, do we truly heal pretty much by zero??? I just sometimes wonder as some people on this site say a slow taper made no difference...

 

Thanks for sticking around here and helping people, it's real nice of you.

[[os...]]

 

 

Oh and Builder, was there a specific dose you reached where you knew you had cracked this? Was there a dose where you felt the rest would be easier? Like when the fear of tapering left? I see you jumped at 0.5mg, I found that unusual as I bet you would not have considered that when you were stuck higher up or was that always your plan or did you just instinctively know you would be OK?

[[bu...]]

 

 

You were stuck at 9mg for some time, you then held for 2 years, do you feel that 2 years enabled you to heal so you could start to taper again??? I know MT helped you but do you think that 2 year break allowed healing to happen?

 

Also, in your opinion, do we truly heal pretty much by zero??? I just sometimes wonder as some people on this site say a slow taper made no difference...

 

 

 

Oh and Builder, was there a specific dose you reached where you knew you had cracked this? Was there a dose where you felt the rest would be easier? Like when the fear of tapering left? I see you jumped at 0.5mg, I found that unusual as I bet you would not have considered that when you were stuck higher up or was that always your plan or did you just instinctively know you would be OK?

 

 

There was no recovery in my 2 year hold, I just avoided withdrawal effects.  (I really don't like the term "heal")Each time I tried to get below 9mg, I had severe and unrelenting sxs.  And each time I went back to 9mg, I was "OK".  Because of my previous failed attempts, I was apprehensive about doing a daily liquid taper, but I was also very optimistic.  You'll notice in my siggy that my first "milestone" was 8.75mg.  That's because I was so excited to have managed to make even a .25mg cut symptom-free.  And then I really knew this was going to work.

 

When I got below 3mg, I began to realize I had absolutely NO WD sxs, and I truly believe that at that point, I really had conquered my dependency.  In retrospect, I probably could have jumped at 2 or 2.5, but I didn't want to do anything crazy.  But I actually INCREASED my taper rate when I got down to 1mg.  Since that didn't cause any problems, I felt very confident that I could safely jump at .5mg. 

 

By the time I was completely off I was already fully recovered from withdrawal.. 

 

But benzos have effects on our bodies and minds that are unrelated to withdrawal.  Not all benzo problems are withdrawal. Over the next several months, I notice a number of changes in my attitude, and my behavior, some very minor, some pretty profound.  So even though I didn't perceive any noticeable effects from taking diazepam, it obviously been making subtle changes to my behavior and personality for some time.

[[bu...]]

BTW, welcome back, Oscar. I have been worried about you for some time!  :)

[[os...]]

BTW, welcome back, Oscar. I have been worried about you for some time!  :)

 

Thanks Builder. I have taken a year out almost

 

Very interesting how you had pretty much no symptoms below 3mg, that's really cool.

 

I get my ass kicked when I make a tiny cut at 2.8mg and hence why I am holding...

 

It's so strange how some people are symptomatic at under 0.5mg, just goes to show we are all different.

 

Hope benzo free life is going well for you, it may take time for emotions and the real you to smooth out, you'll be fine. 

[[ar...]]

BTW, welcome back, Oscar. I have been worried about you for some time!  :)

 

Thanks Builder. I have taken a year out almost

 

Very interesting how you had pretty much no symptoms below 3mg, that's really cool.

 

I get my ass kicked when I make a tiny cut at 2.8mg and hence why I am holding...

 

It's so strange how some people are symptomatic at under 0.5mg, just goes to show we are all different.

 

Hope benzo free life is going well for you, it may take time for emotions and the real you to smooth out, you'll be fine. 

 

Hi Oscar,

 

I had to slow my taper down considerably below 1mg.  I am shocked that I felt cuts that low but it goes to show how sensitive I am to this med.  I always hold until I am at least in the 80/20 range.  80% feeling ok and 20% feeling like crap.  When I do have symptoms they're tolerable and I can live somewhat of a life.  My symptoms are all physical now.  I have myself/brain back as I was so blunted in the higher doses.  My dependency is strong so this is a symptom based taper now.  No schedule for me.  What will happen after I jump from .01 or below?  I don't know but I can say that I tried my best.

[[os...]]

 

Yo arcade79,

 

Just read your entire postings on here, every one.

 

You have worked hard to get to this point, great that you have your mind back, if my mental stuff were easier I would fare much better, I can cope with physical, it's the anxiety and fear that kicks the crap out of me that I fear the most.

 

Well done, I wish you a smooth jump/step off... you got this far, you will be able to cope with off I am sure...

 

Good job, well done, NOT easy.

 

Oscar

[[Di...]]

Hey Oscar. Good to see you back. I'm glad you've been feeling better. I just wish there was some easier way out for you.

[[St...]]

Yes, just to be clear I'm on liquid Valium. I have 3 months worth still and then I have to switch to compounded liquid Valium. I just moved to Australia from the US. That's the reason for my delayed responses. Anyway, I'll look at the links above shortly. I just woke up a little bit ago.

 

Liquid Valium is available in Australia. It's called "Diazepam Elixir". Your doctor can prescribe it.

 

I didn't know that. I thought I had to get it compounded. Either way I just wanted to be clear that that's what I take, not pills. Just in case any of the advice on micro-tapering changes based on people thinking I was on pills, etc.

[[St...]]

 

 

Thanks for all the feedback. I guess I don't get how the math works, then. I first started on 3MG of Klonopin in January of 2014. I tapered completely off by late October 2014 and was slammed hard by physical side effects. I obviously want to avoid that and do it right the second time around. So I'm open. I did a spreadsheet, though, of what a 0.01MG per day cut looks like and it has me finishing in like summer of 2017. Since I'm technically starting this time at 4.1MG isn't that possibly too long to taper? Would diluting it just increase precision as you guys are saying? Or are you arguing for an even longer taper.

 

Just want to be clear. Also, wouldn't I possibly be off in the first place since I'd be drawing the concentrated Valium from the bottle using a syringe as well? What's to say that isn't already off by 0.005 anyway?

 

Not being confrontational, to be clear. Just asking questions so I do this right.

  But if you make a 10-14 day supply at a time, then the same dilution logic applies.  Larger volumes are always easier to work with.

 

If you make a .05mg/ml error measuring 1ml, that's a 5% error.  If you make a .05mg/ml error measuring 10ml, then its only ,05 error. Larger volumes will always make measurement easier and more accurate.

 

And there are simple ways to help insure accuracy.  If I made a 100ml batch of 9:1 (10% solution)  I would use a 60 ml syringe to add 90mls water to a graduated cylinder, e I would use a 10ml syringe to add 10mls of liquid V.  I would confirm that water perfectly matched the 90ml mark on the cylinder, and confirm that  adding the 10ml liquid V brought it up to exactly 100ml total liquid.  So then I had used 3 different measuring tools, and all 3 confirmed that my measure was accurate.

 

In retrospect, this was very probably unneccessary, because my cylinder readings always matched the syringe readings.

 

But I will absolutely confirm that trying to accurate measure and dispense hundredths of a ml (.01ml) of full strength liquid V is essentially impossible (undiluted, its a fairly thick, viscous liquid) and of course, measuring to thousandths of a ml is completely impossible. And I will confirm that measuring and metering 9:1 diluted liquid is easy and consistent.  And if you use the 99:1 dilution that many here prefer, you have pretty much eliminated all dosing error.

 

I tried it with X and it worked for awhile and then complete disaster. I think I never recovered from that crash and won't until I'm well off of the benzos. Please consider diluting. It's not that hard and you can make up a batch, store it in an amber jar or keep it in a dark place and you won't have to dilute often.

 

Is there some canonical post on how to do this and what tools one needs? You mention an amber jar and I've never heard of that. I don't know what sizes of syringes are recommended, etc. I've been able to go from 5.0MG to 4.1 MG with the precision I currently have, but I definitely want this to be as smooth as possible, so a comprehensive post or video or something that explains this all would be helpful.

 

Also, I heard talk of 5% tapers, 1% tapers, etc. Someone recommended to me 0.012 or 0.015 earlier. I'm not sure I follow (maybe benzo brain) how this all works out or how you determine what works best. It would seem that a taper that starts at 0.012 isn't linear. In the early stages that's a low percentage, but as you move along that's obviously a higher percentage. So how are people doing this math on this exactly?

 

All you have to do is read these two threads below. Pretty much all your questions will be answered there.

 

Valium daily taper-Milk or Liquid Valium

 

Valium daily taper-Vodka

 

This thread is good as an over-view of titration, but I find it gets a bit confusing because everyone's tapering something different, so responses can get confusing. You are probably better off with a thread specifically for valium. The valium support thread is also good.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=96753.0

 

If you are on 4mg, I think between a 0.015mg to 0.02mg daily cut would be good. If you plan on using a 100ml solution that would be 1.5ml to 2ml per day.

 

That would mean cutting 1mg over 50 to 66 days.  It’s really not necessary to think about percentages when you are daily cutting. You really have to find a daily cut that gives you the most manageable taper, and that will come with trial and error. Generally though, 0.015mg to 0.02mg seems to be what works for a lot of people around that dose, but like I said – trial and error.

 

Finally read through all of this. Thanks, everyone. So just to be clear, I can dilute the liquid Valium with water, right?

[[St...]]

When I got below 3mg, I began to realize I had absolutely NO WD sxs, and I truly believe that at that point, I really had conquered my dependency.  In retrospect, I probably could have jumped at 2 or 2.5, but I didn't want to do anything crazy.  But I actually INCREASED my taper rate when I got down to 1mg.  Since that didn't cause any problems, I felt very confident that I could safely jump at .5mg. 

 

By the time I was completely off I was already fully recovered from withdrawal.. 

But benzos have effects on our bodies and minds that are unrelated to withdrawal.  Not all benzo problems are withdrawal. Over the next several months, I notice a number of changes in my attitude, and my behavior, some very minor, some pretty profound.  So even though I didn't perceive any noticeable effects from taking diazepam, it obviously been making subtle changes to my behavior and personality for some time.

 

I legit cried just now when I read the above. I don't mind if I'm anxious for the rest of my life. I know how to manage panic attacks. I just want off the medication with no return of the burning nerve pain and other things that caused me to bounce off my taper last time. I pray I'll have the same success you did. Bless you for bringing a little hope into my life today.

[[Di...]]

 

 

Thanks for all the feedback. I guess I don't get how the math works, then. I first started on 3MG of Klonopin in January of 2014. I tapered completely off by late October 2014 and was slammed hard by physical side effects. I obviously want to avoid that and do it right the second time around. So I'm open. I did a spreadsheet, though, of what a 0.01MG per day cut looks like and it has me finishing in like summer of 2017. Since I'm technically starting this time at 4.1MG isn't that possibly too long to taper? Would diluting it just increase precision as you guys are saying? Or are you arguing for an even longer taper.

 

Just want to be clear. Also, wouldn't I possibly be off in the first place since I'd be drawing the concentrated Valium from the bottle using a syringe as well? What's to say that isn't already off by 0.005 anyway?

 

Not being confrontational, to be clear. Just asking questions so I do this right.

  But if you make a 10-14 day supply at a time, then the same dilution logic applies.  Larger volumes are always easier to work with.

 

If you make a .05mg/ml error measuring 1ml, that's a 5% error.  If you make a .05mg/ml error measuring 10ml, then its only ,05 error. Larger volumes will always make measurement easier and more accurate.

 

And there are simple ways to help insure accuracy.  If I made a 100ml batch of 9:1 (10% solution)  I would use a 60 ml syringe to add 90mls water to a graduated cylinder, e I would use a 10ml syringe to add 10mls of liquid V.  I would confirm that water perfectly matched the 90ml mark on the cylinder, and confirm that  adding the 10ml liquid V brought it up to exactly 100ml total liquid.  So then I had used 3 different measuring tools, and all 3 confirmed that my measure was accurate.

 

In retrospect, this was very probably unneccessary, because my cylinder readings always matched the syringe readings.

 

But I will absolutely confirm that trying to accurate measure and dispense hundredths of a ml (.01ml) of full strength liquid V is essentially impossible (undiluted, its a fairly thick, viscous liquid) and of course, measuring to thousandths of a ml is completely impossible. And I will confirm that measuring and metering 9:1 diluted liquid is easy and consistent.  And if you use the 99:1 dilution that many here prefer, you have pretty much eliminated all dosing error.

 

I tried it with X and it worked for awhile and then complete disaster. I think I never recovered from that crash and won't until I'm well off of the benzos. Please consider diluting. It's not that hard and you can make up a batch, store it in an amber jar or keep it in a dark place and you won't have to dilute often.

 

Is there some canonical post on how to do this and what tools one needs? You mention an amber jar and I've never heard of that. I don't know what sizes of syringes are recommended, etc. I've been able to go from 5.0MG to 4.1 MG with the precision I currently have, but I definitely want this to be as smooth as possible, so a comprehensive post or video or something that explains this all would be helpful.

 

Also, I heard talk of 5% tapers, 1% tapers, etc. Someone recommended to me 0.012 or 0.015 earlier. I'm not sure I follow (maybe benzo brain) how this all works out or how you determine what works best. It would seem that a taper that starts at 0.012 isn't linear. In the early stages that's a low percentage, but as you move along that's obviously a higher percentage. So how are people doing this math on this exactly?

 

All you have to do is read these two threads below. Pretty much all your questions will be answered there.

 

Valium daily taper-Milk or Liquid Valium

 

Valium daily taper-Vodka

 

This thread is good as an over-view of titration, but I find it gets a bit confusing because everyone's tapering something different, so responses can get confusing. You are probably better off with a thread specifically for valium. The valium support thread is also good.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=96753.0

 

If you are on 4mg, I think between a 0.015mg to 0.02mg daily cut would be good. If you plan on using a 100ml solution that would be 1.5ml to 2ml per day.

 

That would mean cutting 1mg over 50 to 66 days.  It’s really not necessary to think about percentages when you are daily cutting. You really have to find a daily cut that gives you the most manageable taper, and that will come with trial and error. Generally though, 0.015mg to 0.02mg seems to be what works for a lot of people around that dose, but like I said – trial and error.

 

Finally read through all of this. Thanks, everyone. So just to be clear, I can dilute the liquid Valium with water, right?

 

Yes.

[[...]]

Hi every one, I ordered my tools for liquid tapering today.  i will have them in few days so i have time to plan my taper.

 

Im on 3mg Diazepam now and planning to do daily microtaper to reduce my symptoms.

 

Can I use liquid Diazepam in my a.m dose- that Im tapering slowly and use diazepam tablet in my evening dose. I already ask my GP to change my prescription.

 

is that possible to use the combination of Liquid Diazepam and tablet form?

 

thanks. mcm

[[...]]

Hi every one, I ordered my tools for liquid tapering today.  i will have them in few days so i have time to plan my taper.

 

Im on 3mg Diazepam now and planning to do daily microtaper to reduce my symptoms.

 

Can I use liquid Diazepam in my a.m dose- that Im tapering slowly and use diazepam tablet in my evening dose. I already ask my GP to change my prescription.

 

is that possible to use the combination of Liquid Diazepam and tablet form?

 

thanks. mcm

 

Using both liquid and tablet is the usual way.  This allows you to use a little liquid as possible...just enough for the taper portion of your dose.  But, what I would do is make both doses the same (i.e., tablet and liquid combo) so that you can taper both doses and bring them down together.

[[...]]

Thanks Shake, Im on 1mg am---2mg evening

 

i want to get rid the am dose so that only evening dose left.  Do you think this would cause problem tome.

 

So when i go down to 2mg, I can divide 1mg LD am---1mg tablet evening.  dont know if this is right. 

thnks, mcm

[[...]]

Thanks Shake, Im on 1mg am---2mg evening

 

i want to get rid the am dose so that only evening dose left.  Do you think this would cause problem tome.

 

So when i go down to 2mg, I can divide 1mg LD am---1mg tablet evening.  dont know if this is right. 

thnks, mcm

 

If you need two doses then getting rid of one is not the thing to do.  If you only need one dose then it does not matter.  Since you are currently on 1mg AM and 2mg PM what you might do is make 1mg of your evening dose liquid and leave the AM dose the same, then taper just the PM dose until it equals the AM dose.  Or you could just make them even now with 1mg pill and .5mg liquid for each dose.