Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[...]]

Well aaaargh. I guess Im scared to try and get off two things at once. I will try incorporating a tiny taper a night off the ambien and see how it goes. For now Im worried that since Im nowhere near stable at night on the xanax dosing if I mess with the ambien I wont know when Im stable on the xanax. I cant even work my weights out for today. I messed it all up. At least I started right and have time to figure out the night. Thanks again!

 

Another stupid question- what does crossing it into X mean, incorporating it into my xanax dose?

 

Sorry, by crossing to X I meant replace the 2.5mg A with .0625mg X to get rid of the super-short half life.

[[bu...]]

 

Did you mean to say cut and hold?  The way I look at it, the bigger the cut, the harsher the symptoms, and the more days it will take to recover from it, so the cuts should be small, and daily cutting is optimal to control symptoms.  To me, needing a week to recover from a cut is making this unnecessarily hard.  Needing two or three weeks is making it brutally hard.  I recommend breaking the 5% drop into daily cuts.  If you want to cut 5% every two weeks break it into 5%/14 days=.36% a day.  If you want to cut 5% a month break it into 5%/30 days=.17% a day.  Whatever your rate, break it up into daily cuts.

 

:thumbsup:

[[Ki...]]

stupid question time

So that I can eventually do this myself, how do you calculate weight to dose? Example- my .25 pills weigh approx  .130 (scarily they can be anywhere from 126 to 135!) so .325 g total day dose?

I figured my daily total of xanax is .6125 , so to be accurate I need to powder it up and weigh out per dose instead of just trimming the pills down is that correct? There is a very large difference in the sizes of these pills. Im still not doing well at taking more in the daytime- it really is going to be tough to space it all out evenly. Anyway now I really see why the liquid makes it easier... I wish I had the head to do that!

[[...]]

stupid question time

So that I can eventually do this myself, how do you calculate weight to dose? Example- my .25 pills weigh approx  .130 (scarily they can be anywhere from 126 to 135!) so .325 g total day dose?

I figured my daily total of xanax is .6125 , so to be accurate I need to powder it up and weigh out per dose instead of just trimming the pills down is that correct? There is a very large difference in the sizes of these pills. Im still not doing well at taking more in the daytime- it really is going to be tough to space it all out evenly. Anyway now I really see why the liquid makes it easier... I wish I had the head to do that!

 

They are not stupid questions...they are actually very understandable to ask when you are unfamiliar.  Liquid strikes people as "harder," but it is actually easier than the scale method.  It is also more accurate.

 

Yeah, they vary in weight.  Your .25mg pill weighs .130g so each .001g on the scale is worth .0019mg.  Write that number down.  For each dose, just take the weight for that dose.  No need to turn the pill to powder.  As long as your dose is the right weight you are good.

[[Ki...]]

stupid question time

So that I can eventually do this myself, how do you calculate weight to dose? Example- my .25 pills weigh approx  .130 (scarily they can be anywhere from 126 to 135!) so .325 g total day dose?

I figured my daily total of xanax is .6125 , so to be accurate I need to powder it up and weigh out per dose instead of just trimming the pills down is that correct? There is a very large difference in the sizes of these pills. Im still not doing well at taking more in the daytime- it really is going to be tough to space it all out evenly. Anyway now I really see why the liquid makes it easier... I wish I had the head to do that!

 

They are not stupid questions...they are actually very understandable to ask when you are unfamiliar.  Liquid strikes people as "harder," but it is actually easier than the scale method.  It is also more accurate.

 

Yeah, they vary in weight.  Your .25mg pill weighs .130g so each .001g on the scale is worth .0019mg.  Write that number down.  For each dose, just take the weight for that dose.  No need to turn the pill to powder.  As long as your dose is the right weight you are good.

Im writing it down now- thank you SG!

[[ka...]]

Hey KBB, you are really doing a wonderful job. So thankful for all the help you are receiving. hang in there hun!

[[be...]]

 

Did you mean to say cut and hold?  The way I look at it, the bigger the cut, the harsher the symptoms, and the more days it will take to recover from it, so the cuts should be small, and daily cutting is optimal to control symptoms.  To me, needing a week to recover from a cut is making this unnecessarily hard.  Needing two or three weeks is making it brutally hard.  I recommend breaking the 5% drop into daily cuts.  If you want to cut 5% every two weeks break it into 5%/14 days=.36% a day.  If you want to cut 5% a month break it into 5%/30 days=.17% a day.  Whatever your rate, break it up into daily cuts.

 

:thumbsup:

 

But builder and SG. That seems fine with me. But what about the math equation on how to do this progressively?

[[...]]

 

Did you mean to say cut and hold?  The way I look at it, the bigger the cut, the harsher the symptoms, and the more days it will take to recover from it, so the cuts should be small, and daily cutting is optimal to control symptoms.  To me, needing a week to recover from a cut is making this unnecessarily hard.  Needing two or three weeks is making it brutally hard.  I recommend breaking the 5% drop into daily cuts.  If you want to cut 5% every two weeks break it into 5%/14 days=.36% a day.  If you want to cut 5% a month break it into 5%/30 days=.17% a day.  Whatever your rate, break it up into daily cuts.

 

:thumbsup:

 

But builder and SG. That seems fine with me. But what about the math equation on how to do this progressively?

 

For 5% every 14 days: (today's dose) = .9964 x (yesterday's dose)

 

For 5% a month: (today's dose) = .9983 x (yesterday's dose)

 

.9964 and .9983 are just equal to (1-.0036) and (1-.0017).  Instead of calculating cuts daily you may find it easier to stay with the same cut, go by how you feel, and keep an eye on percentage, not letting it go too high.

[[Ki...]]

Like kasey says I am thankful for all the guidance for sure and I hope to be able to get this going soon. Last night was a total disaster. Adding pills to AM dose by taking away from PM dose is not going to work for me yet. I guess my " crash" a few weeks ago was probably tolerance and I should have added some in the daytime to stabilize without taking away from the bedtime dose. As I changed from daytime " crumb dosing" to actual amounts I could measure it drastically reduced by night dose and I can see I will not get stable this way- just psychotic. Back to the drawing board- maybe .017 3-4 x a day and my usual night dose of .625 or is it .6125 I will have to go look. This sucks to not even be able to get stable- and I have no idea what I took last night to get over a night terror...

I am keeping all these numbers I promise- I guess Im just not one of those people that can just move doses around. I think my nighttime dose has to stay where its at for a while or tiny reductions. I will see how just adding 3 tiny day doses to my previous nighttime dose works. Does anyone know anybody else who has kept a high PM dose and successfully tapered?

[[bu...]]

 

Did you mean to say cut and hold?  The way I look at it, the bigger the cut, the harsher the symptoms, and the more days it will take to recover from it, so the cuts should be small, and daily cutting is optimal to control symptoms.  To me, needing a week to recover from a cut is making this unnecessarily hard.  Needing two or three weeks is making it brutally hard.  I recommend breaking the 5% drop into daily cuts.  If you want to cut 5% every two weeks break it into 5%/14 days=.36% a day.  If you want to cut 5% a month break it into 5%/30 days=.17% a day.  Whatever your rate, break it up into daily cuts.

 

:thumbsup:

 

But builder and SG. That seems fine with me. But what about the math equation on how to do this progressively?

  I've done this for you several times, but here it is again:

 

Current dose X  %cut = cut amount (mg)

Current dose - cut amt (mg) = new dose

New dose X % cut = new cut amt

New dose - cut = nest new dose...etc, etc, etc

 

EXAMPLE:

15 mg X 5% = .75mg

15 - .75=14.25

14.25 X .05 = .71

14.25 - .71= 13.54...etc, etc.

 

 

 

[[ga...]]

Like kasey says I am thankful for all the guidance for sure and I hope to be able to get this going soon. Last night was a total disaster. Adding pills to AM dose by taking away from PM dose is not going to work for me yet. I guess my " crash" a few weeks ago was probably tolerance and I should have added some in the daytime to stabilize without taking away from the bedtime dose. As I changed from daytime " crumb dosing" to actual amounts I could measure it drastically reduced by night dose and I can see I will not get stable this way- just psychotic. Back to the drawing board- maybe .017 3-4 x a day and my usual night dose of .625 or is it .6125 I will have to go look. This sucks to not even be able to get stable- and I have no idea what I took last night to get over a night terror...

I am keeping all these numbers I promise- I guess Im just not one of those people that can just move doses around. I think my nighttime dose has to stay where its at for a while or tiny reductions. I will see how just adding 3 tiny day doses to my previous nighttime dose works. Does anyone know anybody else who has kept a high PM dose and successfully tapered?

 

KB, there's a xanax w/d thread. Maybe somebody over there can answer this.  http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=96799.5230

[[Ki...]]

TY Gard- I posted it there too. I appreciate it very much!

[[Di...]]

 

Did you mean to say cut and hold?  The way I look at it, the bigger the cut, the harsher the symptoms, and the more days it will take to recover from it, so the cuts should be small, and daily cutting is optimal to control symptoms.  To me, needing a week to recover from a cut is making this unnecessarily hard.  Needing two or three weeks is making it brutally hard.  I recommend breaking the 5% drop into daily cuts.  If you want to cut 5% every two weeks break it into 5%/14 days=.36% a day.  If you want to cut 5% a month break it into 5%/30 days=.17% a day.  Whatever your rate, break it up into daily cuts.

 

:thumbsup:

 

But builder and SG. That seems fine with me. But what about the math equation on how to do this progressively

 

 

Hi Bets

 

I replied to a similar question on the valium thread ..... http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=149619.msg2011272#msg2011272 . I've copied it below.

 

You would use these equations to work it out regardless of the dose or percentage. You would just change the relevant figures. Does that explanation make more sense to you? If not let me know and I'll see if I can explain the equation more simply for you.

 

 

It’s actually quite simple to work it out. Let’s say you’re on the 15mg, and you want to drop 5% over 20 days. That would be the following…

 

(15mg x 5) ÷ 100 = 0.75mg…… (or 15 x 5% = 0.75mg)

 

So over 20 days you would reduce 0.75mg. To work out how much to reduce each day would be…..

 

0.75mg ÷ 20 days = 0.0375mg (rounded up to 0.04mg)

 

To work out what that would be of a 100ml mixture…..

 

0.04mg x 100 = 4ml

 

However, I think a better way is to just use this information as a general guide, but work out a daily reduction based on how you are actually feeling. With a daily taper you might find you can go a little bit faster, so just be prepared to fiddle around with these doses a bit and base your daily reductions on how you are feeling rather than a percentage amount which can always get a bit complicated. 

 

[[ga...]]

TY Gard- I posted it there too. I appreciate it very much!

 

Oh good. Glad you know about that thread. I was on BB for quite a while before I found it. It helped me a lot before my crossover.

[[Ki...]]

That sounds like a huge clue that spreading your dose is going to help you.  Aren't you also on Ambien?  That needs to be included as a benzo dose.

Yes Ambien at 2.5. I guess I just omit it because Im so focused on the xanax. I will be tapering off of it as well but not until I get some semblance of normalcy. I was glad to see you equated it to such a low dose of xanax. Funny thing about ambien, taking more of it never did anything but with xanax it definitely did. Ambien at 2.5 was the same as ambien at 5. But less ambien is a very bad night for me. I understand it needs to be addressed though- thank you for the reminder!

 

X is A x40...it is 40x more potent.  So think of 2.5mg A as .0625mg X, but with a ridiculously short half life.  It would be good to get rid of it, either by tapering it first or crossing it to X.  A drug with a HL that short is not doing you any favors.

SG, I slept for about an hour and a half last night. Is the ambien likely to be the culprit here? Would it be better to taper off that now since Im not really sleeping hardly any at all anyway or is there a danger in quickly tapering A while taking X?

[[...]]

X is A x40...it is 40x more potent.  So think of 2.5mg A as .0625mg X, but with a ridiculously short half life.  It would be good to get rid of it, either by tapering it first or crossing it to X.  A drug with a HL that short is not doing you any favors.

SG, I slept for about an hour and a half last night. Is the ambien likely to be the culprit here? Would it be better to taper off that now since Im not really sleeping hardly any at all anyway or is there a danger in quickly tapering A while taking X?

 

You're on two short acting drugs.  The A is like .0625mg X so it is ~10% of your benzo dose if I remember right.  I would not try to taper in your condition.  I'd try to get back to stability by evening the X out and replacing the A, if possible.

[[la...]]

SG57...I cut .5mg off of 8.5mgV today (5%)

 

I am going to be asking if you can help me with future cuts...want to keep them at 5% and I would LOVE to do this every 2 weeks...EEK...we'll see if I can do that I may go to MT

 

I have not weighed my 2mg pills (which I will be using) once I have I will get back to you and hope that you can do the math because I can barely add 2+2 right now

 

 

Thank you for all of your help

[[my...]]

Good morning,

 

Here's a general question.  I know many have had luck with liquid MT's..  Crash b has written often how easy his taper became when he switched.  Do you think the liquid, assuming the amount one is tapering (percentage wise) is the same, is smoother than a dry cut MT?  I have been comfortable with a dry C/H - to the extent one can be comfortable when tapering a benzo  - so am inclined to begin my MT at some point soon using the dry cut daily taper method. 

 

Thoughts?  Builder and SG...would there be any objective reason for one to be better than the other?  Putting the accuracy part aside and assuming the amounts cut are identical?

 

Thanks so much.

 

Mana. 

[[...]]

SG57...I cut .5mg off of 8.5mgV today (5%)

 

I am going to be asking if you can help me with future cuts...want to keep them at 5% and I would LOVE to do this every 2 weeks...EEK...we'll see if I can do that I may go to MT

 

I have not weighed my 2mg pills (which I will be using) once I have I will get back to you and hope that you can do the math because I can barely add 2+2 right now

 

 

Thank you for all of your help

 

Okay.

[[...]]

Good morning,

 

Here's a general question.  I know many have had luck with liquid MT's..  Crash b has written often how easy his taper became when he switched.  Do you think the liquid, assuming the amount one is tapering (percentage wise) is the same, is smoother than a dry cut MT?  I have been comfortable with a dry C/H - to the extent one can be comfortable when tapering a benzo  - so am inclined to begin my MT at some point soon using the dry cut daily taper method. 

 

Thoughts?  Builder and SG...would there be any objective reason for one to be better than the other?  Putting the accuracy part aside and assuming the amounts cut are identical?

 

Thanks so much.

 

Mana. 

 

A problem with the scale method is accuracy.  To see it just look at the smallest cut you can make.  For a .5mg K pill weighing .170g and a scale accurate to .001g the smallest cut is ~.003mg.  With liquids you could put a .5mg pill into 50ml and a 1ml syringe would easily be able to cut .0005mg - six times more accurate!  And a cut pushing the limits of the syringe would be .01ml which is .0001mg and 30 times more accurate.  And that is only with 50ml.  If you used 100ml those accuracies would double.  So, liquids are out of the ballpark with accuracy.  Whatever you need, they easily do it.  So accuracy is the main advantage to liquids in my mind, and is what makes them appealing.

 

Putting that aside, I like the fact that the scale allows sticking with dry dosing.  And another thing the scale does is increase the pill accuracy.  We know the pill weights vary by 5-10%.  These inaccurate pills go into homemade liquids, but not so with the scale.  With the scale the pill weights are filed down to withing .001g which is within 1% of each other.  But the scale method is a lot more work and is kind of finicky, not to mention the reliance on questionable equipment quality.  The accuracy problem is huge IMO and makes liquids more than worth it.

[[ga...]]

X is A x40...it is 40x more potent.  So think of 2.5mg A as .0625mg X, but with a ridiculously short half life.  It would be good to get rid of it, either by tapering it first or crossing it to X.  A drug with a HL that short is not doing you any favors.

SG, I slept for about an hour and a half last night. Is the ambien likely to be the culprit here? Would it be better to taper off that now since Im not really sleeping hardly any at all anyway or is there a danger in quickly tapering A while taking X?

 

You're on two short acting drugs.  The A is like .0625mg X so it is ~10% of your benzo dose if I remember right.  I would not try to taper in your condition.  I'd try to get back to stability by evening the X out and replacing the A, if possible.

 

:thumbsup:

[[bu...]]

 

 

A problem with the scale method is accuracy.  To see it just look at the smallest cut you can make.  For a .5mg K pill weighing .170g and a scale accurate to .001g the smallest cut is ~.003mg.  With liquids you could put a .5mg pill into 50ml and a 1ml syringe would easily be able to cut .0005mg - six times more accurate!  And a cut pushing the limits of the syringe would be .01ml which is .0001mg and 30 times more accurate.  And that is only with 50ml.  If you used 100ml those accuracies would double.  So, liquids are out of the ballpark with accuracy.  Whatever you need, they easily do it.  So accuracy is the main advantage to liquids in my mind, and is what makes them appealing. 

 

 

Putting that aside, I like the fact that the scale allows sticking with dry dosing.  And another thing the scale does is increase the pill accuracy.  We know the pill weights vary by 5-10%.  These inaccurate pills go into homemade liquids, but not so with the scale.  With the scale the pill weights are filed down to withing .001g which is within 1% of each other.  But the scale method is a lot more work and is kind of finicky, not to mention the reliance on questionable equipment quality.  The accuracy problem is huge IMO and makes liquids more than worth it.

 

There is no way a dry taper can match the precision of a liquid taper.  And this is especially true if you're using Rx liquid.

 

1)  The med is not uniformly distributed throughout the tablet.

2)  Tablets vary in weight, even within the same lot/batch.

3)  The $20 scale you get from Ebay might be a gram scale, but it is NOT a precision scale.

 

Now having said that, I have often said  "consistency is more important than accuracy", but obviously, accuracy helps achieve consistency.  And even given the limitations of dry cut/scale procedures, people often  find that method successful

[[Ki...]]

X is A x40...it is 40x more potent.  So think of 2.5mg A as .0625mg X, but with a ridiculously short half life.  It would be good to get rid of it, either by tapering it first or crossing it to X.  A drug with a HL that short is not doing you any favors.

SG, I slept for about an hour and a half last night. Is the ambien likely to be the culprit here? Would it be better to taper off that now since Im not really sleeping hardly any at all anyway or is there a danger in quickly tapering A while taking X?

 

You're on two short acting drugs.  The A is like .0625mg X so it is ~10% of your benzo dose if I remember right.  I would not try to taper in your condition.  I'd try to get back to stability by evening the X out and replacing the A, if possible.

 

:thumbsup:

So its decision time. I am still sensitive to the X- taking it equally in the daytime means I live in the bed. I never took it in the daytime. I have managed to get to .017  three times during the day- thats a sixteenth of a .25 g pill! And the remaining .6125 at bedtime. Still nowhere in the same universe as far as equalizing dose. If I take more in the day- ugh- I cant imagine. I still wonder if it was tolerance or if I just all of a sudden started having IDWD. I actually used to think it was a GOOD thing I was taking such short acting drugs, cause that gave my chemistry all day to recover. Im serious- I really talked myself into believing that. Duuuuuuh

[[my...]]

Thanks SG and builder for your input comparing the two methods.  builder, since k does not come in a liquid form as far as I know, the "scales" are a bit more equal.  I have managed to dry cut this far.  We'll see about the last (long) leg of this taper journey...

 

Much appreciated, as always.

 

mana 

[[Hi...]]

Ok so im here again asking for help tryingto taper i tried detox and it was so so bad i just reinstated after one week of phenobarbitaltaper it did not work i still might have to go to detox but im thinking  if i taper some then the eventual detox wont be as bad i cant handle the akathisia and soul torment. Im not stable and the benzos are making me sick or keepingme sick.

 

Um i take 7.5mg ativan a day in 3 divided doses. Can someone please help me with this i have such a hard time understand i have a scale but its not completely acurate for daily titration but i cant handle cuts im so kindled. Um so i take 2.5 mg 3x a day. The 2mgpill weighs .300 and the .5 mg weighs .70 so each dose weighs .370 and the total weight is 1100 im not sure where the decimal goes i need help with this how much should i cut each day or should i cut and hold for a week or twoo weeks im so u stable and tormented and waves in waves of rutheless lament so theres no way to twll if im stabilized from a dose cut the terror and brain flips are so bad.

 

Can someone please pm me or post it here to help me come up with a plan at least for like 30 days. To come down a bit painlessly as possible. Please im begging for help my posts on this board usually get brushed over one person was helping me at one point but they moved on.

 

I could really use a tutorial for the math figure out how many mg i. Taking and percentage and how much to cut at a time and for how long please please.