Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

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Updosing is always a tough call.  I reserve them for emergencies if things are bad, but "bad" is subjective.  Maybe I should recommend them more.  I go back and forth.  And how much to updose is another decision.  If you hold it should get better, but it might take a while.

 

Then there is rescue dosing.  That might be a thing to try.  You take a one-time extra dose on top of your current dose.  It never seems to upset the taper if you just do it once.  The way you respond may give you a clue to if updosing will work.  If not, there seems to be no downside.

 

Thanks for explaining the up-dose vs. rescue dose thing. I always wondered about that.

 

So a rescue dose is a one-time increase is for an emergency? And has no impact on the taper? Does it work with slow benzos? I can see how it would work with X, but with L? I still can't figure out how long after a screw-up I get hit, but it's not quick. (Did a few big screw-ups when learning the new system.) So, I would think the "rescue" would take awhile to take effect, too.

 

Would having a new furnace installed and having all that drilling and banging going on all day constitute an emergency?? I am so not looking forward to Friday.

 

I don't have enough experience with rescue dosing to know.  What you say may be true.  Long acting drugs might require a bigger dose to get the same effect.  I don't have a good idea of how much is even needed to get an effect.  I'm just saying that I've never seen any harm done by one-time extra doses so it seems like a safe thing to do that may or may not be helpful.  There seems to be little risk in giving it a try.

 

We got a new furnace about two years ago.  Best thing ever.  More modern, quiet, more even and steady heating.  Built in steam humidifier.  We've been very happy with it.

[[Ki...]]

SG , BUILDER and others who helped me develop a slow taper schedule last week- I tried and failed. I had a few good days and thought MT was such a tiny amount I could do it- and I should have been able to. Wondering if my hideous last night is still not stable from IDWD or if its WD symptoms. Previous info in my signature but last night I started having hideous muscle twitches and tremors, sweating to soak the sheets... I did sleep for about an hour. My dose was my .5 pill plus my divided up pill- a .25 pill cut in half and shaved down to a weight of .58 ( someone on here figured that out for me so I dont know the exact dose but total PM is like .60). My daytime dose is " just enough" to hold back symptoms and those crumbs were enough for a few days. Could this be that my daytime dose needs to go up some to even out my levels? Since I never took it in the day before Im reluctant to take much but I really want to get stable- I have my whole MT schedule written out and planned and now I cant even start it... Any ideas? 

[[...]]

SG , BUILDER and others who helped me develop a slow taper schedule last week- I tried and failed. I had a few good days and thought MT was such a tiny amount I could do it- and I should have been able to. Wondering if my hideous last night is still not stable from IDWD or if its WD symptoms. Previous info in my signature but last night I started having hideous muscle twitches and tremors, sweating to soak the sheets... I did sleep for about an hour. My dose was my .5 pill plus my divided up pill- a .25 pill cut in half and shaved down to a weight of .58 ( someone on here figured that out for me so I dont know the exact dose but total PM is like .60). My daytime dose is " just enough" to hold back symptoms and those crumbs were enough for a few days. Could this be that my daytime dose needs to go up some to even out my levels? Since I never took it in the day before Im reluctant to take much but I really want to get stable- I have my whole MT schedule written out and planned and now I cant even start it... Any ideas? 

 

Can you post what you have been cutting?

[[ga...]]

 

I don't have enough experience with rescue dosing to know.  What you say may be true.  Long acting drugs might require a bigger dose to get the same effect.  I don't have a good idea of how much is even needed to get an effect.  I'm just saying that I've never seen any harm done by one-time extra doses so it seems like a safe thing to do that may or may not be helpful.  There seems to be little risk in giving it a try.

 

We got a new furnace about two years ago.  Best thing ever.  More modern, quiet, more even and steady heating.  Built in steam humidifier.  We've been very happy with it.

 

Thanks, SG. My landlord finally agreed to replace the furnace because the heat exchanger went bad. Pretty chilly around here these past few days because the furnace is struggling. Before my divorce I was a home owner and got to make these decisions, myself. That old, noisy, energy hog would have been gone years ago! And I'd have a built-in humidifier again, too, but I don't think that's going to happen. I'm wondering how long this is going to take. They have to remove the ancient one with the chimney and put in the kind with the pipe that goes out the wall. How long did it take to do yours, SG? All day?

 

My psychiatrist once OK-ed a daytime dose of gabapentin (which I normally take at night for restless leg syndrome) for an all-day trip to see a specialist. I might go that route if this furnace racket turns into an all-day affair. Just the parade of repairmen and estimators showing up unannounced has been stressful already. And other stuff still going on with my son. It hasn't been a good week and I am holding right now. Really, really, looking forward to the weekend!

 

Gard

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Thanks, SG. My landlord finally agreed to replace the furnace because the heat exchanger went bad. Pretty chilly around here these past few days because the furnace is struggling. Before my divorce I was a home owner and got to make these decisions, myself. That old, noisy, energy hog would have been gone years ago! And I'd have a built-in humidifier again, too, but I don't think that's going to happen. I'm wondering how long this is going to take. They have to remove the ancient one with the chimney and put in the kind with the pipe that goes out the wall. How long did it take to do yours, SG? All day?

 

My psychiatrist once OK-ed a daytime dose of gabapentin (which I normally take at night for restless leg syndrome) for an all-day trip to see a specialist. I might go that route if this furnace racket turns into an all-day affair. Just the parade of repairmen and estimators showing up unannounced has been stressful already. And other stuff still going on with my son. It hasn't been a good week and I am holding right now. Really, really, looking forward to the weekend!

 

Gard

 

I don't remember.  I think it was done in a day.

[[Ki...]]

SG , BUILDER and others who helped me develop a slow taper schedule last week- I tried and failed. I had a few good days and thought MT was such a tiny amount I could do it- and I should have been able to. Wondering if my hideous last night is still not stable from IDWD or if its WD symptoms. Previous info in my signature but last night I started having hideous muscle twitches and tremors, sweating to soak the sheets... I did sleep for about an hour. My dose was my .5 pill plus my divided up pill- a .25 pill cut in half and shaved down to a weight of .58 ( someone on here figured that out for me so I dont know the exact dose but total PM is like .60). My daytime dose is " just enough" to hold back symptoms and those crumbs were enough for a few days. Could this be that my daytime dose needs to go up some to even out my levels? Since I never took it in the day before Im reluctant to take much but I really want to get stable- I have my whole MT schedule written out and planned and now I cant even start it... Any ideas? 

 

Can you post what you have been cutting?

 

 

Day dose is 3x day of crumbs. Probably .01 each dose.

Bedtime is a .50 whole pill and

I take a .25 pill, cut it in half and shave it down to where the weight last night was .058. My estimate would be about .11 mg? Before cutting the weight of a whole .25 mg pill is approx .128

Does that make sense? Sorry Im new and still not sure what Im doing

[[...]]

Can you post what you have been cutting?

 

 

Day dose is 3x day of crumbs. Probably .01 each dose.

Bedtime is a .50 whole pill and

I take a .25 pill, cut it in half and shave it down to where the weight last night was .058. My estimate would be about .11 mg? Before cutting the weight of a whole .25 mg pill is approx .128

Does that make sense? Sorry Im new and still not sure what Im doing

 

You described symptoms consistent with a big cut so I am trying to find out how much you have been cutting.  What have your doses/weights been day by day?

[[Ki...]]

Can you post what you have been cutting?

 

 

Day dose is 3x day of crumbs. Probably .01 each dose.

Bedtime is a .50 whole pill and

I take a .25 pill, cut it in half and shave it down to where the weight last night was .058. My estimate would be about .11 mg? Before cutting the weight of a whole .25 mg pill is approx .128

Does that make sense? Sorry Im new and still not sure what Im doing

 

You described symptoms consistent with a big cut so I am trying to find out how much you have been cutting.  What have your doses/weights been day by day?

 

I was doing just fine for most of fifteen years then kapow. Its only been a few days and tiny cuts of .001 was what was suggested on here which leads me to think its not a cutting issue but IDWD or tolerance or some kind of major change not related to the cut. I am literally shaving a tiny bit off the pill which I did to avoid more symptoms but now even taking .0625a few hours ago I feel like my muscles are frozen. This cant be the brand new taper its got to be something else. Apologies for writing incorrect dose in previous post, the cut is .001 nightly the last 2 nights.

[[Ma...]]

Maya,  Wow...impressive!  I just read your sig and see that you have decreased your Valium daily total by more than 50% and in a short period of time.  That is awesome!   

 

And, Deep and Gard, yes, a rescue dose, when used only once in a while, that is when sxs are just too tough to handle, is OK, IMO.  I've come to believe that too much stress on our system is not good for us either.  As SG wrote, it is a dose on top of what we are otherwise taking.  Then you go back to business as usual.

Thank you! I didn't realize I had cut my V dose in half, until you wrote it. I still think in K doses. I was on 2.75mgs equivalent and I am now at 1.28mg equivalent. V has been much kinder to me and easier to taper. It is still not easy. Also the higher you are the bigger amount you can cut, usually. Congrats on being almost at .5mgs. That, in my opinion, is a HUGE milestone. 

 

XO Maya

[[ca...]]

Maya,  Wow...impressive!  I just read your sig and see that you have decreased your Valium daily total by more than 50% and in a short period of time.  That is awesome!   

 

And, Deep and Gard, yes, a rescue dose, when used only once in a while, that is when sxs are just too tough to handle, is OK, IMO.  I've come to believe that too much stress on our system is not good for us either.  As SG wrote, it is a dose on top of what we are otherwise taking.  Then you go back to business as usual.

Thank you! I didn't realize I had cut my V dose in half, until you wrote it. I still think in K doses. I was on 2.75mgs equivalent and I am now at 1.28mg equivalent. V has been much kinder to me and easier to taper. It is still not easy. Also the higher you are the bigger amount you can cut, usually. Congrats on being almost at .5mgs. That, in my opinion, is a HUGE milestone. 

 

XO Maya

Maya, so happy to hear the V taper is easier on you then the K I am cutting that next so very glad to hear some good news

[[...]]

You described symptoms consistent with a big cut so I am trying to find out how much you have been cutting.  What have your doses/weights been day by day?

 

I was doing just fine for most of fifteen years then kapow. Its only been a few days and tiny cuts of .001 was what was suggested on here which leads me to think its not a cutting issue but IDWD or tolerance or some kind of major change not related to the cut. I am literally shaving a tiny bit off the pill which I did to avoid more symptoms but now even taking .0625a few hours ago I feel like my muscles are frozen. This cant be the brand new taper its got to be something else. Apologies for writing incorrect dose in previous post, the cut is .001 nightly the last 2 nights.

 

I agree I don't think removing .002g is enough to cause what you are describing.  That is only .0038mg and .5% of your dose.  What else is different?

[[Ma...]]

CD,

I was just about to write to you on KK. I am so glad you are doing better. I think things will be a lot better with no K for you. For me, V is much easier to cut than K. I think you will find it to be, as well. Also, it comes in much smaller pills. The biggest V pill equals the smallest K pill. It comes in liquid if you want to be very accurate and precise at the end etc. I am so happy for you! We will be V buddies now. 

 

XO Maya

[[Ki...]]

Nothing else is different in diet or anything else. I am guessing Im not stable enough to taper. Not sure never had this before. Tolerance, IDWD, tolerance WDs, not sure what it is but its awful and dont know if going up dose is good idea or bad

[[Ma...]]

You described symptoms consistent with a big cut so I am trying to find out how much you have been cutting.  What have your doses/weights been day by day?

 

I was doing just fine for most of fifteen years then kapow. Its only been a few days and tiny cuts of .001 was what was suggested on here which leads me to think its not a cutting issue but IDWD or tolerance or some kind of major change not related to the cut. I am literally shaving a tiny bit off the pill which I did to avoid more symptoms but now even taking .0625a few hours ago I feel like my muscles are frozen. This cant be the brand new taper its got to be something else. Apologies for writing incorrect dose in previous post, the cut is .001 nightly the last 2 nights.

 

I agree I don't think removing .002g is enough to cause what you are describing.  That is only .0038mg and .5% of your dose.  What else is different?

You are probably in tol wd, if it's been 15 years. If you have ID WD you will feel like you need your next dose sooner. You will have sxs around an hr or so before your next dose, not all the time. I had horrific ID WD. It was different than tol wd, regular wd etc. For me, my heart would start beating, anxiety etc. and my body was telling me I need my next dose. If that is the case, then you need to dose more. Sorry to interrupt your convo. I just wanted to try and explain ID WD, in case you are having it. I am sure you will figure it out and find what works for you. Good luck!

 

XO Maya

[[...]]

Nothing else is different in diet or anything else. I am guessing Im not stable enough to taper. Not sure never had this before. Tolerance, IDWD, tolerance WDs, not sure what it is but its awful and dont know if going up dose is good idea or bad

 

Thanks for adding that Maya.

 

KBB, It might be good to stop tapering right now and work on getting this sorted out.  The usual approach is to get on a steady dose and spread your dose out as much as needed if you have interdose symptoms.  Going up can be hit or miss, but has its place depending on how severe things are.

[[Ki...]]

I appreciate the input. I do have the fluttery heart thing and a really nasty sick stomach but I attributed that to not sleeping. I saw someone post a good explanation of the difference in tolerance vs withdrawl vs tolerance withdrawl and which benefits from going up and which is pointless no matter what you do so dont bother, so I guess it is important to determine what it is. Actually the little dose did calm me down a little. If anyone knows where that post is please point it out to me, I would appreciate it. I guess I will go to another thread since it seems its not taper time for me yet. Crap.

[[Ma...]]

KBB,

Those are both common wd sxs. I meant my heart would race only an hour or so before my next dose from ID WD. If you are on Xanax it has a short half life. I don't know what post you are talking about. I am a bit foggy, but I will explain to my best and I am sure others will explain it better.

Tolerance is when the med is no longer helping you. That happens usually 3-4 months, according to prescribe info. Tolerance wd is when you have sxs of wd while still on the med becasue your body would needs more of the med and it starts harming you. This started year three for me, I think. It's hard to know after 13+ years. I started tapering in tol wd. There is no way I could have taken enough benzo to feel better. I also was on a very high dose. Your sig confused me a little. If the little dose helped, I would guess an updose would help you. I updosed awhile ago and it helped me. It doesn't always help everyone though, especially those on low doses. You will be ok and find a way to taper. I hope you feel better soon!

 

XO Maya

 

builder, I think, is the one who explains it really well

[[Ki...]]

Thank you for the explanation! I just noticed the last part of my post sounded snotty and it wasnt meant that way- it was disappointment at not being able to taper since this post is in the MT support group. I will try to stay at this dose for a few days, using a little more in the daytime and leaving bedtime dose the same and see if I can sleep. If I can sleep I can win this thing. ❤️

[[ga...]]

Thanks, SG. My landlord finally agreed to replace the furnace because the heat exchanger went bad. Pretty chilly around here these past few days because the furnace is struggling. Before my divorce I was a home owner and got to make these decisions, myself. That old, noisy, energy hog would have been gone years ago! And I'd have a built-in humidifier again, too, but I don't think that's going to happen. I'm wondering how long this is going to take. They have to remove the ancient one with the chimney and put in the kind with the pipe that goes out the wall. How long did it take to do yours, SG? All day?

 

My psychiatrist once OK-ed a daytime dose of gabapentin (which I normally take at night for restless leg syndrome) for an all-day trip to see a specialist. I might go that route if this furnace racket turns into an all-day affair. Just the parade of repairmen and estimators showing up unannounced has been stressful already. And other stuff still going on with my son. It hasn't been a good week and I am holding right now. Really, really, looking forward to the weekend!

 

Gard

 

I don't remember.  I think it was done in a day.

 

Thanks. The landlord said "a few hours" but he is not exactly Mr. Truthful. A day sounds more realistic.

[[ga...]]

Kitty, no need to leave this thread. We can help you get ready for your micro taper. SG's advice is sound. Getting your blood levels even is key. Two doctors (my primary and my new psych) told me that.

 

When I was in a similar place to you last spring (taking uneven amounts of X per my psych nurse's directions and feeling absolutely horrible and not sleeping), I switched psychiatrists. The new doctor said to take my entire dose of X and divide it evenly into 4 doses and take them evenly throughout the day. I asked if I could divide it into 5 doses. He said 4 or 5 or 6 as long as I didn't up-dose and I spread the doses evenly. The idea is to get your blood levels steady. I felt hugely better once I got my blood levels even around the clock. I did go to 5 times and then 6 times. Xanax does come as a liquid called Alprazolam intensol which makes dividing it up so much easier. You just use a syringe to measure your dose. No cutting. (I was terrible at cutting and it really increased my anxiety trying to calibrate and cut.)

 

He also prescribed 25mg Seroquel for sleep. Low dose Seroquel is a strong antihistamine. There are other strong prescription antihistamines (such as doxepin, which I cannot take) that also help with sleep and don't affect the gaba receptors. But, they will burn out or you will get hooked on them if you take them every night. So I don't take the Seroquel every night. But some sleep is way better than no sleep. I also use a sleep app and meditation to help me calm down in the evening. My app runs all night at a very quiet level and helps calm me down when I awaken over and over. (It's called iSleep Easy.)

 

BTW, I also found that Ambien did nothing for me after a few days and gave up on it before I started the X. You might consider getting your Xanax evened out and then tapering off the Ambien. I believe it affects the gaba receptors also so needs to be tapered away. I think from what you said, you take less Ambien than X (relatively speaking), so it might be easier to get rid of the Ambien first.

 

Anyway, after getting my blood levels even, I tapered away my trazodone (which was doing nothing for me except making me ill) and then started a micro taper of the X using the liquid which I diluted further. I was able to taper for several months and then reached a point where I couldn't go any further. When you get low, your brain is having to adjust more and it gets harder. You have to slow down. I held for a month. No improvement, in fact I thought I was getting worse. I crossed partially to Librium (similar to Valium). Tapered some more Xanax. Finally recently crossed all the way to Librium and am going to micro taper that away. I guess it could take a year from here.

 

It's been a long road.  I was a total wreck when I started and thought it was hopeless. But with help from this thread and others and a very cooperative psychiatrist, I got to the place that I could actually taper and have kept at it since then. It's been baby steps and sometimes holds, but enough baby steps and eventually you find yourself at the finish line.

 

We can do this!

 

Gard

[[...]]

KBB, I didn't know you were on Ambien too.  That definitely figures heavily into your picture.  Z drugs need to be treated as benzos and Ambien is even shorter acting than X.  It is extremely difficult to taper.

[[Ki...]]

Gard, thank you so much. Its very encouraging to hear stories like yours and I thank you for those ideas. Lord knows I need whatever ideas I can get. Yes SG Im sorry I didnt add that in, I was just thinking of xanax numbers. The ambien never helped over 3 mg. when I used to could take this stuff and it actually worked, if I had a bad night I would go up to .75 on xanax but noticed with ambien all it did was initial sleep and 2.5 did as good as 5 or 10. So all these years of ultra short acting things are worse than I ever thought. I just figured as long as I never went over my .75 and could easily go back down I was doing just fine...

[[...]]

Gard, thank you so much. Its very encouraging to hear stories like yours and I thank you for those ideas. Lord knows I need whatever ideas I can get. Yes SG Im sorry I didnt add that in, I was just thinking of xanax numbers. The ambien never helped over 3 mg. when I used to could take this stuff and it actually worked, if I had a bad night I would go up to .75 on xanax but noticed with ambien all it did was initial sleep and 2.5 did as good as 5 or 10. So all these years of ultra short acting things are worse than I ever thought. I just figured as long as I never went over my .75 and could easily go back down I was doing just fine...

 

2.5mg A is equal to .0625mg X.  Are you still taking it?

[[ga...]]

Gard, thank you so much. Its very encouraging to hear stories like yours and I thank you for those ideas. Lord knows I need whatever ideas I can get. Yes SG Im sorry I didnt add that in, I was just thinking of xanax numbers. The ambien never helped over 3 mg. when I used to could take this stuff and it actually worked, if I had a bad night I would go up to .75 on xanax but noticed with ambien all it did was initial sleep and 2.5 did as good as 5 or 10. So all these years of ultra short acting things are worse than I ever thought. I just figured as long as I never went over my .75 and could easily go back down I was doing just fine...

 

You're very welcome. Love your ID and avatar!

 

Gard

[[ga...]]

Gard, thank you so much. Its very encouraging to hear stories like yours and I thank you for those ideas. Lord knows I need whatever ideas I can get. Yes SG Im sorry I didnt add that in, I was just thinking of xanax numbers. The ambien never helped over 3 mg. when I used to could take this stuff and it actually worked, if I had a bad night I would go up to .75 on xanax but noticed with ambien all it did was initial sleep and 2.5 did as good as 5 or 10. So all these years of ultra short acting things are worse than I ever thought. I just figured as long as I never went over my .75 and could easily go back down I was doing just fine...

 

2.5mg A is equal to .0625mg X.  Are you still taking it?

 

KBB, I'm wondering the same thing. From your signature and comments I thought you were still trying to use some Ambien to get some sleep. I confess, I don't understand your signature, but that could be my benzo brain at work. Perhaps you could tell us again what exactly you are taking right now? As in this week?