Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[de...]]

Good morning Bennie suggested that i post on here to see if any of this would make sense as to why i have been so sick for the last 10 days I will copy and paste from the k thread and she said may either

SG or Builder could help me figure this out and what to do..

 

 

Please tell me i am not crazy...

 

 

I moved my scale from the bedroom to the dining room table 3 days before i got sick..in the bedroom it was sitting on top of a postal scale which would move some i would think ..where as the wooden dining room table doesnt..it hit me just a minute ago..

i got my pill containers and weighed my pills again they are right at where i cut them in the dining room but they weigh .002 more in the bedroom..could this have thrown me bad since i was doing c/c/h and had been doing it for a few days before this hit me..and i have cut to much..

thanks to any of you mathy people who can tell me the answer to this and i have continue to cut on the dining room table for 15 days now..

and is there anything that i can do to change this cause wouldnt that mean that i was making a .008gm cut per day since all 4 doses were off .002gms

 

i hope this makes sense and helps me understand whats wrong with me

 

thanks for listening

 

deep

 

 

Bennie

 

I had been doing c/c/h for a long time cant remember when i started it was when i tried to use the .5s but they didnt weigh enough then when i went back to the 1mg i  kept the c/c/h making it .001gm cuts alternating the 4 doses..of a 1mg average weight .172..so not sure how much of cuts i was making..

I know SG had said when i changed to the .5s i might be able to cut everyday for awhile but never got that far..

and as for up dosing i went from like .77 .78 .77 .78 to .78 all four doses so not a big increase i dont think and i have been doing that for like 7 days now..and i know better than to move my scale but didnt think anything of it cause i was decluttering the bedroom and thought hey it would be easier to cut at the table and be able to sit down then to stand at the dresser all the time..

and i forgot i had it sitting on top of a postal scale that probably isnt stable anyways but it never bothered me..but then the wooden table doesnt give at all..

 

could you tell me how much of a cut i was making those days by dropping like .008 all 4 doses everyday for 15 days? and how much the first cut would have been that first day.

 

thanks so much for getting back to me and I am hoping this was my mistake and it will right itself

 

 

 

 

and here was Bennies reply to me

If the scale was off .002 g over 4 doses then just the scale difference (between bedroom and other room) would be .008 g = .0465 mg per day. Then you'd have to add in .002 g for the daily cut, for an adjusted total of .010 g, right? So, .010 g / .172 g x 1. mg = .058 mg per day. Over 15 days = .87 mg total cut. You might want to have SG57 or Builder double check the rationale and math, as the percentage calculation gets a little tricky (cut and paste or send them here, perhaps).

OK?

 

I think we have the reason you have not been well.

 

 

so now dont know what to do..i know i have been really sick and to the doc 3 times and they cant find anything wrong with me and all my labs came back great..

 

thanks in advance for any help you can give me i have been in a really dark place so scared i had thought of giving up and going back to 4mgs again..cause i have been so sick.

 

if you have any problems understanding this please go to the k thread and read my posts i would so appreciate it 

 

deep

 

[[...]]

Hi Deep,

 

The timing of this coinciding with the way you feel is suspicious.  Did you calibrate it when you moved it?  And was it calibrated in the bedroom?  I would not expect anything more than an offset error to occur if it did not get jarred or treated harshly.  Is it reading higher or lower at the new location?  If the new location caused it to read .002g higher then the same scale readout would short you by .002g.  This would cause all your future doses to be low by .002g, which for you is ~.048mg K.  Your dose is about 1.9mg now, I think, so this would be about a 2.5% cut...not really a big deal unless you kept tapering on top of it.

 

If the new location caused it to read .002g lower, then the error would have updosed you by ~.048mg, which is not a problem.

 

What about foods and meds?  Is there anything different in your diet or medicines that coincides with the symptom uptick?  Tapering is not the only way that benzo levels can be decreased.  Sometimes things we ingest can also do this, so it is a good idea to be aware this can happen and check it when symptoms rise.

[[de...]]

SG..yes i kept tapering on top of that and then got sick about 3 to 4 days after i moved the scale..but then once i got so sick i held my dose and havent tapered..in fact i upped my dose back to the last day that i felt well..which was 2 weeks ago this saturday..the pills in the dining room where i am cutting now weigh...0.78 and in the bedroom they weigh .080..so now that makes no sense either..and there has not been any change at all in my diet or anything i just got real sick woke up with heart pounding..hr up..blurred vision and its pretty much stayed that way..the docs ran an ekg, xray chest and stomach,,lots of blood work and nothing..so what does a cortisol thing feel like that people talk about??

 

thanks for your time sure wish i could figure this out..cause it makes no sense i was doing fine until i moved the scale..

 

but i also retired the beginning of january and now i am not running 50-60 hrs a week and always distracted either..had wondered if i needed to go back to having to meet deadlines and running wild all the time..

 

thanks

 

deep

[[Be...]]

Hi Deep,

 

The timing of this coinciding with the way you feel is suspicious.  Did you calibrate it when you moved it?  And was it calibrated in the bedroom?  I would not expect anything more than an offset error to occur if it did not get jarred or treated harshly.  Is it reading higher or lower at the new location?  If the new location caused it to read .002g higher then the same scale readout would short you by .002g.  This would cause all your future doses to be low by .002g, which for you is ~.048mg K.  Your dose is about 1.9mg now, I think, so this would be about a 2.5% cut...not really a big deal unless you kept tapering on top of it.

 

If the new location caused it to read .002g lower, then the error would have updosed you by ~.048mg, which is not a problem.

 

What about foods and meds?  Is there anything different in your diet or medicines that coincides with the symptom uptick?  Tapering is not the only way that benzo levels can be decreased.  Sometimes things we ingest can also do this, so it is a good idea to be aware this can happen and check it when symptoms rise.

 

Deep,

You started an antibiotic for a supposed UTI—when was that?

Bennie

[[...]]

SG..yes i kept tapering on top of that and then got sick about 3 to 4 days after i moved the scale..but then once i got so sick i held my dose and havent tapered..in fact i upped my dose back to the last day that i felt well..which was 2 weeks ago this saturday..the pills in the dining room where i am cutting now weigh...0.78 and in the bedroom they weigh .080..so now that makes no sense either..and there has not been any change at all in my diet or anything i just got real sick woke up with heart pounding..hr up..blurred vision and its pretty much stayed that way..the docs ran an ekg, xray chest and stomach,,lots of blood work and nothing..so what does a cortisol thing feel like that people talk about??

 

thanks for your time sure wish i could figure this out..cause it makes no sense i was doing fine until i moved the scale..

 

but i also retired the beginning of january and now i am not running 50-60 hrs a week and always distracted either..had wondered if i needed to go back to having to meet deadlines and running wild all the time..

 

thanks

 

deep

 

You're describing a cluster of benzo symptoms that came on suddenly and together as they would typically do after a big cut.  Your doctor has checked for illness and found nothing.  This is classic.  I'd surmise you most likely have somehow been left significantly short of benzo.  If the new location made the scale read lower that is not the culprit (have I got that right or have I got it backwards?).

 

Bennie mentioned an AB.  What was that?

[[de...]]

the antibiotic was amoxicillin..and i didnt start that til 4 days after i got sick..and it reads .002gms less where i weigh it now..

 

sorry this is so confusing..

 

thanks

 

[[dp...]]

Just wanted to do a quick check in and say that I'm eternally grateful I learned how to micro-taper with a scale. I'm down to 1.88mg Valium and will be off in the coming months... and tapering slowly with the micro-taper has made it MUCH more bearable for me.

 

I don't post as much as I used to, so some might not remember me... but hope y'all are hanging tough. 

[[...]]

the antibiotic was amoxicillin..and i didnt start that til 4 days after i got sick..and it reads .002gms less where i weigh it now..

 

sorry this is so confusing..

 

thanks

 

Well, I did a quick search on amoxicillin and it looks squeaky clean as far as changing K metabolism - it appears to have no effect.  And the scale explanation appears to not be an issue either - in fact it should have updosed you.  I don't know where that leaves us, but there is a reason.  This is not a random unexplainable thing.

[[Ul...]]

the antibiotic was amoxicillin..and i didnt start that til 4 days after i got sick..and it reads .002gms less where i weigh it now..

 

sorry this is so confusing..

 

thanks

 

Well, I did a quick search on amoxicillin and it looks squeaky clean as far as changing K metabolism - it appears to have no effect.  And the scale explanation appears to not be an issue either - in fact it should have updosed you.  I don't know where that leaves us, but there is a reason.  This is not a random unexplainable thing.

 

SG, where do you check to see if something changes K metabolism? How do I do it? I'd like to learn how this works.

 

Thanks!

 

Jeff

[[de...]]

SG  thank you so much for looking up everything for me..but i just dont know what to do..could all of this be the c/c/h caught up with me..i have been doing the c/c/h for quite awhile now with the 1mg..and that was what you had me doing when i tried to do the .5mgs but the weight wasnt quite enough...so where do i go from here..this heart racing all through my body when i do the least thing has got to stop..

 

i even thought it might have something to do with not working anymore..that going from meeting deadlines and running 50 to 60 hrs a week and then not i wasnt able to occupy and distract like i did..but Bennie said if anything from the yr i had last yr i would be exhausted and should not think to going back to that at all..but when i went into the grocery store yesterday terri said you look high..i told her i not only feel weird its like looking through a fishbowl..so people can look at me and see it..but it wasnt like that when i was in the stores on a run for deals to meet the auction days..

 

thanks for listening and always helping

 

deep

[[...]]

Well, I did a quick search on amoxicillin and it looks squeaky clean as far as changing K metabolism - it appears to have no effect.  And the scale explanation appears to not be an issue either - in fact it should have updosed you.  I don't know where that leaves us, but there is a reason.  This is not a random unexplainable thing.

 

SG, where do you check to see if something changes K metabolism? How do I do it? I'd like to learn how this works.

 

Thanks!

 

Jeff

 

The liver CYP450 enzyme system.  The liver produces these enzymes to process junk out of the body.  There are many different ones and K is metabolized by one called 3A4.  3A4 is a major one for getting rid of drugs.  Other drugs (and even foods) can affect these enzymes, increasing or decreasing their effect.  Any drug that increases the effect of 3A4 will make K leave more quickly, which could be felt as a cut if it removed enough.  To check I just googled "amoxicillin cyp450 inducer" and the hits came back clean.  Usually, if it is a known inducer, it can be seen right away from the google results.  There are also sites that list drugs and their various known inhibitors and inducers, as well as lists of drugs (and foods) and the various drugs that they are known to inhibit and induce.

[[...]]

SG  thank you so much for looking up everything for me..but i just dont know what to do..could all of this be the c/c/h caught up with me..i have been doing the c/c/h for quite awhile now with the 1mg..and that was what you had me doing when i tried to do the .5mgs but the weight wasnt quite enough...so where do i go from here..this heart racing all through my body when i do the least thing has got to stop..

 

i even thought it might have something to do with not working anymore..that going from meeting deadlines and running 50 to 60 hrs a week and then not i wasnt able to occupy and distract like i did..but Bennie said if anything from the yr i had last yr i would be exhausted and should not think to going back to that at all..but when i went into the grocery store yesterday terri said you look high..i told her i not only feel weird its like looking through a fishbowl..so people can look at me and see it..but it wasnt like that when i was in the stores on a run for deals to meet the auction days..

 

thanks for listening and always helping

 

deep

 

I don't know.  It may be that, but it seems to have come on hard and even though you acted quickly and are holding, and even updosed a little, it is enduring.  That does not sound like the way symptoms come on with a daily taper.  It sounds more like a big sudden cut or pushing through symptoms.  Somehow, someway I think your benzo level dropped a significant amount.  Are you sure there has not been anything else different besides the amoxicillin?  An OTC med?  Some weird food?  MSG?

 

I think you are doing the right thing by holding.  Hold as long as needed to make it all calm down.  You might want to consider an updose.  I am always reluctant to recommend them as they do not always help, but they often do work.  It can be a risk worth taking sometimes.

[[Ju...]]

I haven't seen this thread until now but I agree, I'm so grateful Benzo Buddies taught me how to do daily micro tapers. Such a life saver. Literally. I still get bad side effects but they are mostly more manageable. I had to hold yesterday though due to a panic attack, but I feel slightly more in control (as much as that's even possible on benzo withdrawl) when doing daily liquid titrations. Hope you guys are hanging in there too

[[de...]]

I cant believe how this hit me and i thought i was dying to be honest..i thought it had to be a heart attack coming on..but after 2 trips to the cardio doc..xrays ekg and just checking me..and nothing then to my primary on monday..and blood work, lier, thyroid kidney, white and red blood counts, 3 different inflammation tests and a few others and they all came back well within the good range..he just told me to finish the amox so i dont make it so it doesnt work for me anymore but as what to do next they are stumped..and since they are letting me do me..well..i have no answers..all i know is today i made the bed, picked up a few things, and got some things ready to go through tomorrow and i am exhausted and heart calms down but when i am up moving around i feel like i need to walk bent kinda over cause my heart rate goes up and it scares me..then the benzo brain thinks maybe they missed something..

 

hubby just asked could you have gotten some bad pills ?? maybe not enough k in the script?? never thought of that..we are all grasping at straws i think..but i have a new script i just picked up and i have cut my next 3 days out of it so i have no idea..i know the weights have gotten really bad in my scripts going from .167 to .181 now that quite a difference so i usually have enough to pick out all the ones closest to .172 my average i use..

 

thanks for all the help today..i am hoping something comes to you cause i cant keep this up..i need a break..i keep losing weight too i am down from 135 in august to 117..they are not happy about that and neither am i..

 

thanks again

 

 

deep

[[...]]

I cant believe how this hit me and i thought i was dying to be honest..i thought it had to be a heart attack coming on..but after 2 trips to the cardio doc..xrays ekg and just checking me..and nothing then to my primary on monday..and blood work, lier, thyroid kidney, white and red blood counts, 3 different inflammation tests and a few others and they all came back well within the good range..he just told me to finish the amox so i dont make it so it doesnt work for me anymore but as what to do next they are stumped..and since they are letting me do me..well..i have no answers..all i know is today i made the bed, picked up a few things, and got some things ready to go through tomorrow and i am exhausted and heart calms down but when i am up moving around i feel like i need to walk bent kinda over cause my heart rate goes up and it scares me..then the benzo brain thinks maybe they missed something..

 

hubby just asked could you have gotten some bad pills ?? maybe not enough k in the script?? never thought of that..we are all grasping at straws i think..but i have a new script i just picked up and i have cut my next 3 days out of it so i have no idea..i know the weights have gotten really bad in my scripts going from .167 to .181 now that quite a difference so i usually have enough to pick out all the ones closest to .172 my average i use..

 

thanks for all the help today..i am hoping something comes to you cause i cant keep this up..i need a break..i keep losing weight too i am down from 135 in august to 117..they are not happy about that and neither am i..

 

thanks again

 

 

deep

 

If it is really bad then why not try an updose?

 

What about a brand or lot number change in your pills?  Can you check that?

[[de...]]

the brand has not changed its still teva..but how do i find out if the lot number has changed on a script??

 

thanks..and how much would you say to updose to see if it helps ..cause i went up just a bit but its been like 6 or so days now..or do i just ride it out and would it eventually get better...rather than updose and maybe it not work and then have to travel down that road again ?

 

 

[[Kg...]]

Deep I know SG has answered most of your questions but I wonder if the infection you had which caused you to need the antibiotic in the first place is the answer to why you feel so bad.  When I have had an infection and needed an antibiotic I never continued cutting because that puts additional stress on my body which is already not doing well.  So my guess is that your body could not cope with both the infection and the cuts and you should hold in the future if this even happens again, hold while you are taking the antibiotic and hold for a few days after as well so your body gets back to 'normal'. 

[[de...]]

Kgirl they have come to the conclusion there never was an infection so never needed the antibiotic but now they want me to take the 10 days worth so i can use it again...thats why its so confusing..but at this point i am just at a loss..but thanks for getting back to me and i will remember that in the future if i am on an antibiotic again..and i havent been tapering..i even up dosed a bit back to the last time i felt right..but that didnt help me either.

 

I am just so over it..and tired of burning up my benzo brain trying to figure it all out..i just dont know what is causing this and why i do feel some better today but still can do very little..and its like i was just slammed down..i was feeling pretty good when i was running all those hrs..

 

thanks again for thinking about me 

 

deep

 

 

[[Be...]]

Kgirl they have come to the conclusion there never was an infection so never needed the antibiotic but now they want me to take the 10 days worth so i can use it again...thats why its so confusing..but at this point i am just at a loss..but thanks for getting back to me and i will remember that in the future if i am on an antibiotic again..and i havent been tapering..i even up dosed a bit back to the last time i felt right..but that didnt help me either.

 

I am just so over it..and tired of burning up my benzo brain trying to figure it all out..i just dont know what is causing this and why i do feel some better today but still can do very little..and its like i was just slammed down..i was feeling pretty good when i was running all those hrs..

 

thanks again for thinking about me 

 

deep

 

Try,

Maybe try to stay active without overloading yourself. Aim above "stoned out" and 18 hour days.    If I lay around, particularly on my back, I feel the damned jitteriness in my chest like I was plugged into an electrosonic cleaner. But reading upright, gentle walking, things that distract me, I can do that.

Bennie

[[...]]

the brand has not changed its still teva..but how do i find out if the lot number has changed on a script??

 

thanks..and how much would you say to updose to see if it helps ..cause i went up just a bit but its been like 6 or so days now..or do i just ride it out and would it eventually get better...rather than updose and maybe it not work and then have to travel down that road again ?

 

IDK if lot numbers are on the prescription label.  If not maybe you could call the pharmacist and ask.  They would know I would think.

 

Updosing is always a tough call.  I reserve them for emergencies if things are bad, but "bad" is subjective.  Maybe I should recommend them more.  I go back and forth.  And how much to updose is another decision.  If you hold it should get better, but it might take a while.

 

Then there is rescue dosing.  That might be a thing to try.  You take a one-time extra dose on top of your current dose.  It never seems to upset the taper if you just do it once.  The way you respond may give you a clue to if updosing will work.  If not, there seems to be no downside.

[[de...]]

SG I will call the pharmacy in the morning and see if they can tell me if dec. scripts lot number changed from nov..i guess i am wondering cause i started that bottle on the 19th of dec and didnt have a problem until the 16th or so of this month so not so sure about that but i can try and find out..and i think i would rather hold another few days if i can rather than updose but if things get worse or i feel like i cant do this like i did the other day then i will take an extra .78 just one and see if that 5th dose does anything just so i dont have to go back to somewhere i dont want to go.

 

i cant thank you enough for talking to me today and trying to help me figure this out...makes no sense to anyone other than for them to say w/d..just hope this isnt the new me for awhile

 

thanks again 

 

deep

[[ga...]]

Just wanted to do a quick check in and say that I'm eternally grateful I learned how to micro-taper with a scale. I'm down to 1.88mg Valium and will be off in the coming months... and tapering slowly with the micro-taper has made it MUCH more bearable for me.

 

I don't post as much as I used to, so some might not remember me... but hope y'all are hanging tough. 

 

How could I forget you?!! Congrats on being so close to they end! 

 

Gard

[[ga...]]

 

Updosing is always a tough call.  I reserve them for emergencies if things are bad, but "bad" is subjective.  Maybe I should recommend them more.  I go back and forth.  And how much to updose is another decision.  If you hold it should get better, but it might take a while.

 

Then there is rescue dosing.  That might be a thing to try.  You take a one-time extra dose on top of your current dose.  It never seems to upset the taper if you just do it once.  The way you respond may give you a clue to if updosing will work.  If not, there seems to be no downside.

 

Thanks for explaining the up-dose vs. rescue dose thing. I always wondered about that.

 

So a rescue dose is a one-time increase is for an emergency? And has no impact on the taper? Does it work with slow benzos? I can see how it would work with X, but with L? I still can't figure out how long after a screw-up I get hit, but it's not quick. (Did a few big screw-ups when learning the new system.) So, I would think the "rescue" would take awhile to take effect, too.

 

Would having a new furnace installed and having all that drilling and banging going on all day constitute an emergency?? I am so not looking forward to Friday.  

[[Ma...]]

Deep,

I am writing you here becasue KK moves way too fast for me, right now. I also know you are not on a lot. We have kind of similar benzo situations. I was on 6mg+ for 13+ years (my entire adult life) and started tapering in bad tol wd. I had all the sxs you have mentioned, during tol wd and while tapering. As Kgirl wisely says if something isn't working it's time to try something new. That's what I would and did do. I stopped MT and went back to cut and hold and did a smaller cut and hold pattern. I also crossed over to V. I am so glad that I did those things. I do not feel great, but then again I haven't in years becasue of K. I feel better than I did most of time tapering K and I am cutting at least 2x as fast. I noticed you dose 4x a day. Most dose K 2x. I was dosing 6-7 times before the c/o. I am an ultra rapid freak metabolizer. I am clearly very different there, but maybe you metabolize a little faster than most. Anyway, I am not saying to do what I did. I am just saying I would try adding some V and see what happens. Whatever you choose, know I support you and I am here if you need me. You are in my thoughts often and I am always wishing you well. I haven't been on BB as much, but I have seen your posts and I am thinking of you and sending lots of love. I hope things get easier for you very soon!

 

Big hugs,

XO Maya 

 

Btw I was the first person my pdoc switched from K to V. It took convincing. I know your dr isn't on board with V, if you want some tip just ask.

 

Gard,

I think for me a rescue dose of V would help, if I needed to. I might not feel it instantly like K, more like 9 hrs. I would hold with all that noise. I hope it stops soon! I just PMed you. 

[[my...]]

Maya,  Wow...impressive!  I just read your sig and see that you have decreased your Valium daily total by more than 50% and in a short period of time.  That is awesome!   

 

And, Deep and Gard, yes, a rescue dose, when used only once in a while, that is when sxs are just too tough to handle, is OK, IMO.  I've come to believe that too much stress on our system is not good for us either.  As SG wrote, it is a dose on top of what we are otherwise taking.  Then you go back to business as usual.