Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[ga...]]

Pure ethanol will dissolve 19.5mg/ml Librium, but 80 proof vodka will only dissolve 2.9mg/ml.  Your caps are 5mg each I think, so I'd use at least 4ml or more.

 

Librium is the one with a confusing story.  Past BB members seem to have been able to use plain water to dissolve it (look up Oscar), but the data from Jouyban says water only dissolves .11mg/ml.  If you remember, we then were researching chlordiazepoxide HCl  - which has a much higher solubility in water - and were wondering if this was the actual dispensed drug.  Here's the solubility data from Jouyban...

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.40

 

If .11mg/ml is right you'd need a bare minimum of 46ml vodka/water to keep it dissolved.  I'd use at least 100ml.

 

Thanks SG. You said 80 proof vodka will only dissolve 2.9mg L. But how much 80 proof vodka? I don't understand where the numbers came from. And if I don't understand, I will fret!

 

Can I do this: dissolve one 5mg capsule in 10ml vodka (an easy line to see on my cylinder) and add 90ml water, pour into my jar and stir?

 

Then, if I have the L dissolved, do I need to shake it in a leak-proof bottle or is that only if it's a suspension? So far I don't have a leak-proof bottle of the correct size.

 

I'm hoping to be able to stir it up and store similar to the way I was doing it with my wonderful-evil-just-add-water Xanax solution. I want to make this is as similar to what I was doing before as possible. I won't be having my kids to help me with mixing up my doses any more. I need to keep this as simple and familiar as possible. I'm pretty sure I totally messed up my dosing attempts yesterday.   And my anxiety has been high and my sleep poor lately, so easy is what I'm looking for.

 

Thanks.

 

Gard

 

2.9mg per ml - so 1ml will dissolve 2.9mg and 2ml will dissolve 5.8mg.  So 2ml is near bare minimum for a 5mg cap.  I think 4ml would be fine and 10ml would also be fine, but is overkill.  These numbers came from Jouyban, which is the data in the link.  I consider it the most reliable data we have for benzo solubility.  The lab procedures were careful and spelled out in his papers, which are available online in full text.  It's like he knew we would need it.

 

The procedure you mentioned sounds fine, but 10ml might be overkill.  Once it is dissolved I don't think it is necessary to shake or stir again.

 

Thanks for explaining that all. I makes sense now. I guess I will have to measure the vodka with a syringe since the lowest line on the cylinder is at 10ml.

 

I'm glad you could actually see his lab procedures and understand them. Makes me feel a bit better.

 

My body is really not liking having its last .15mg of Xanax taken away. Even with the L subbed in, I haven't had symptoms like this in a long time. Hope this doesn't last.

 

Gard

[[Ul...]]

My gut feeling is that I have beat the addiction of the drug, but I still have slight anxiety, tingling in the arms, and some GI issues. I am about 6 weeks from jumping. Am I just fooling myself or did others feel they had beat the drug b4 they actually jumped?I do not plan to jump early either way but my curiosity is making me wonder If I could jump. My current dose is .0412, .0412, .0412, .2175

 

Your doses are in mg or grams? Either way, no way I'd jump now, if I were you. We just really do not know the power this drug has on us individually, until the taper is over. Withdrawal is not over till it's over. Keep at it and don't shoot yourself in the foot. I had same thoughts of quitting early. Benzos are tricksters.

 

I know everyone is different, but just for the heck of it, what "daily dose total" is a dose when people usually jump from Klonopin? I've got four million thousand miles to go (and I'm not even able to cut right now), but I'd still love an opinion as to when people jump from Klonopin.

 

Thanks!

 

Jeff

[[jr...]]

My gut feeling is that I have beat the addiction of the drug, but I still have slight anxiety, tingling in the arms, and some GI issues. I am about 6 weeks from jumping. Am I just fooling myself or did others feel they had beat the drug b4 they actually jumped?I do not plan to jump early either way but my curiosity is making me wonder If I could jump. My current dose is .0412, .0412, .0412, .2175

 

Your doses are in mg or grams? Either way, no way I'd jump now, if I were you. We just really do not know the power this drug has on us individually, until the taper is over. Withdrawal is not over till it's over. Keep at it and don't shoot yourself in the foot. I had same thoughts of quitting early. Benzos are tricksters.

 

I know everyone is different, but just for the heck of it, what "daily dose total" is a dose when people usually jump from Klonopin? I've got four million thousand miles to go (and I'm not even able to cut right now), but I'd still love an opinion as to when people jump from Klonopin.

 

Thanks!

 

Jeff

 

Dont really know all that. I take xanax and when I am down to .0412 x 4 doses per day, I am gonna drop one dose per week till I have none to drop. But I got a ways to go. prob a couple to three months. I am not in a hurry. and you shouldnt be either. a 5-10% reduction is recommended every 2 weeks

[[...]]

I decided to finish my crossover to Librium. I tired opening the capsules and shaking the powder in water. Didn't work well at all. The powder sank to the bottom quickly. The jar leaked. No idea how much Librium I actually took last night or this morning.

 

Sent my son to get some 80 proof vodka. Could someone refresh my memory? How much vodka to safely dissolve one 5mg capsule of Librium? Thanks.

 

Gard

 

Gardener,

 

You need a jar that will not leak when you shake it.  This jar is expensive, but I use them and am able to carry them in my purse with no leakage whatsoever.  They come in 100 mL and 250 mL sizes. Which one you purchase will depend on how much liquid you use. They are also sturdy--I have dropped mine on the floor many times with no damage done.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004XR5T48?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

 

I do not remember how much vodka is needed for Librium.  I know it is recommended to use 2 mL for each mg of valium, but not sure about the Librium.  Maybe try about 2 mL? I just checked on PubMed and it says that 20 mg will dissolve in 1 mL of vodka.  The Librium should dissolve in water from what I have read, but the fillers will most likely not dissolve.  Just make sure you shake the container well before removing your dose.  If you use a syringe to measure the dose, make sure that after taking the dose, you draw up some water into the syringe and drink it.  This will ensure you have all of the medication. If you drink it right from the container, then after drinking, swirl some water around in the container and drink. 

 

Good luck Gardner.  You will do it!!

 

Anne

 

 

Hi Warriors!

    Does anybody know how much klonopin will dissolve in 1ml of propylene glycol? I am trying to help someone taper off of it and I can't find an answer googling. Thanks, Rose

[[an...]]

Pure ethanol will dissolve 19.5mg/ml Librium, but 80 proof vodka will only dissolve 2.9mg/ml.  Your caps are 5mg each I think, so I'd use at least 4ml or more.

 

Librium is the one with a confusing story.  Past BB members seem to have been able to use plain water to dissolve it (look up Oscar), but the data from Jouyban says water only dissolves .11mg/ml.  If you remember, we then were researching chlordiazepoxide HCl  - which has a much higher solubility in water - and were wondering if this was the actual dispensed drug.  Here's the solubility data from Jouyban...

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.40

 

If .11mg/ml is right you'd need a bare minimum of 46ml vodka/water to keep it dissolved.  I'd use at least 100ml.

 

Thanks SG. You said 80 proof vodka will only dissolve 2.9mg L. But how much 80 proof vodka? I don't understand where the numbers came from. And if I don't understand, I will fret!

 

Can I do this: dissolve one 5mg capsule in 10ml vodka (an easy line to see on my cylinder) and add 90ml water, pour into my jar and stir?

 

Then, if I have the L dissolved, do I need to shake it in a leak-proof bottle or is that only if it's a suspension? So far I don't have a leak-proof bottle of the correct size.

 

I'm hoping to be able to stir it up and store similar to the way I was doing it with my wonderful-evil-just-add-water Xanax solution. I want to make this is as similar to what I was doing before as possible. I won't be having my kids to help me with mixing up my doses any more. I need to keep this as simple and familiar as possible. I'm pretty sure I totally messed up my dosing attempts yesterday.   And my anxiety has been high and my sleep poor lately, so easy is what I'm looking for.

 

Thanks.

 

Gard

 

2.9mg per ml - so 1ml will dissolve 2.9mg and 2ml will dissolve 5.8mg.  So 2ml is near bare minimum for a 5mg cap.  I think 4ml would be fine and 10ml would also be fine, but is overkill.  These numbers came from Jouyban, which is the data in the link.  I consider it the most reliable data we have for benzo solubility.  The lab procedures were careful and spelled out in his papers, which are available online in full text.  It's like he knew we would need it.

 

The procedure you mentioned sounds fine, but 10ml might be overkill.  Once it is dissolved I don't think it is necessary to shake or stir again.

 

Thanks for explaining that all. I makes sense now. I guess I will have to measure the vodka with a syringe since the lowest line on the cylinder is at 10ml.

 

I'm glad you could actually see his lab procedures and understand them. Makes me feel a bit better.

 

My body is really not liking having its last .15mg of Xanax taken away. Even with the L subbed in, I haven't had symptoms like this in a long time. Hope this doesn't last.

 

Gard

 

Gardner,

 

I would use 5 mL then.  It will be easy to see.  I strongly suggest shaking the liquid before measuring your dose regardless of how soluble a substance is.  There is some conflicting data here and I think it is better to be safe.  We have no idea how long it takes for the Librium to dissolve and therefore I would definitely shake it up a bit especially if you refrigerate it. 

 

Anne

[[ga...]]

 

I know everyone is different, but just for the heck of it, what "daily dose total" is a dose when people usually jump from Klonopin? I've got four million thousand miles to go (and I'm not even able to cut right now), but I'd still love an opinion as to when people jump from Klonopin.

 

Thanks!

 

Jeff

 

Hi Jeff! I have no idea, but good to see you!

 

Gard

[[ga...]]

 

Gardner,

 

I would use 5 mL then.  It will be easy to see.  I strongly suggest shaking the liquid before measuring your dose regardless of how soluble a substance is.  There is some conflicting data here and I think it is better to be safe.  We have no idea how long it takes for the Librium to dissolve and therefore I would definitely shake it up a bit especially if you refrigerate it. 

 

Anne

 

Thanks, Anne. My daughter helped me measure the 3 ml with a syringe today. Squirted it into a bottle with the L powder and then added 97ml of water. Her young eyes have no trouble seeing those little lines.

 

This evening we discussed if/when she might be able to come and help with measuring once her semester starts. She's kind of back and forth about staying here and enduring the commute across town in bad weather vs. staying on campus. She's far east and I'm far west, and there's a lot of road construction between here and campus because they're doing a total rebuild of the highway that's been going on for years. As for now, it's intersession and her one class is online, so I get to have her and her young eyes for 3 weeks. If I lose her, I'll go with the 5 ml, I think, just to make the process easier.

 

And guess what I found today? A glass vitamin bottle that doesn't leak!   I actually have several. Dumped the vitamins into other jars and now I am armed and ready to go! I did shake the bottle like crazy as you suggested and will continue to do so. I am very paranoid! There sure is a lot of little white filler floating around in there. Seems like the capsule is 80% filler. I should weigh one and find out.

 

I decided not to refrigerate the solution but to just make 2 days at a time and keep them in the cool part of the basement, away from the furnace. Refrigerating a solution seemed risky. (See, I do read your discussions with builder and SG!)

 

How are you feeling today? Any better? I sure do hope so!

 

Gard

[[Ma...]]

Gard,

Congrats on C/O to Librium! I hope everything else is good!

 

Jeff,

A lot of people on KK jumped this month. Asking there is best. They were all dry cutting. People jumped mostly around like .005mgs, I think. I soonest I would consider it is 1-.5mgs of V, as Ashton suggests. That is .05mgs-.025mgs of K. I hope you are well I will PM you soon.

 

XO Maya 

[[Be...]]

My gut feeling is that I have beat the addiction of the drug, but I still have slight anxiety, tingling in the arms, and some GI issues. I am about 6 weeks from jumping. Am I just fooling myself or did others feel they had beat the drug b4 they actually jumped?I do not plan to jump early either way but my curiosity is making me wonder If I could jump. My current dose is .0412, .0412, .0412, .2175

 

Your doses are in mg or grams? Either way, no way I'd jump now, if I were you. We just really do not know the power this drug has on us individually, until the taper is over. Withdrawal is not over till it's over. Keep at it and don't shoot yourself in the foot. I had same thoughts of quitting early. Benzos are tricksters.

 

I know everyone is different, but just for the heck of it, what "daily dose total" is a dose when people usually jump from Klonopin? I've got four million thousand miles to go (and I'm not even able to cut right now), but I'd still love an opinion as to when people jump from Klonopin.

 

Thanks!

 

Jeff

 

Jeff, what is the miles to milligrams equation?  I jumped at .005 mg. Felt so cruddy at .02 mg with little symptom change that I wondered if I would have been just as well off jumping from there. Compare .02 to V and it might have been safe. No matter. While it's a long haul, getting lower and having rapid shifts in symptoms answered that age old question, do we heal during taper (yes), and relieved me of pressure to be hasty.

[[ga...]]

Gard,

Congrats on C/O to Librium! I hope everything else is good!

 

XO Maya 

 

Thanks, Maya. I'm very glad to be off of the Xanax. Now I just need a way to remember to take both my L capsules and liquid at each dose. So far so bad!    Fortunately, L is much more forgiving than X!

 

Gard

[[an...]]

 

Gardner,

 

I would use 5 mL then.  It will be easy to see.  I strongly suggest shaking the liquid before measuring your dose regardless of how soluble a substance is.  There is some conflicting data here and I think it is better to be safe.  We have no idea how long it takes for the Librium to dissolve and therefore I would definitely shake it up a bit especially if you refrigerate it. 

 

Anne

 

Thanks, Anne. My daughter helped me measure the 3 ml with a syringe today. Squirted it into a bottle with the L powder and then added 97ml of water. Her young eyes have no trouble seeing those little lines.

 

This evening we discussed if/when she might be able to come and help with measuring once her semester starts. She's kind of back and forth about staying here and enduring the commute across town in bad weather vs. staying on campus. She's far east and I'm far west, and there's a lot of road construction between here and campus because they're doing a total rebuild of the highway that's been going on for years. As for now, it's intersession and her one class is online, so I get to have her and her young eyes for 3 weeks. If I lose her, I'll go with the 5 ml, I think, just to make the process easier.

 

And guess what I found today? A glass vitamin bottle that doesn't leak!   I actually have several. Dumped the vitamins into other jars and now I am armed and ready to go! I did shake the bottle like crazy as you suggested and will continue to do so. I am very paranoid! There sure is a lot of little white filler floating around in there. Seems like the capsule is 80% filler. I should weigh one and find out.

 

I decided not to refrigerate the solution but to just make 2 days at a time and keep them in the cool part of the basement, away from the furnace. Refrigerating a solution seemed risky. (See, I do read your discussions with builder and SG!)

 

How are you feeling today? Any better? I sure do hope so!

 

Gard

 

Hi Gardner,

 

It sounds like you have everything under control.  Glad to hear you found a leak proof jar.  Yes, the powder will contain mostly fillers--probably about 85% or more. How do you feel now that you have almost finished the crossover?  It might take a while to feel better, but I do think that not having to worry about 6 doses a day will make a difference.

 

I am feeling better this week. Symptoms come and go, but I know it could be much worse. I have started my daily cuts again, and I do think it helps.  It seems that I get used to one dose pretty quickly.

 

Have a great night Gardner.

 

Anne 

[[ga...]]

 

Hi Gardner,

 

It sounds like you have everything under control.  Glad to hear you found a leak proof jar.  Yes, the powder will contain mostly fillers--probably about 85% or more. How do you feel now that you have almost finished the crossover?  It might take a while to feel better, but I do think that not having to worry about 6 doses a day will make a difference.

 

I am feeling better this week. Symptoms come and go, but I know it could be much worse. I have started my daily cuts again, and I do think it helps.  It seems that I get used to one dose pretty quickly.

 

Have a great night Gardner.

 

Anne 

 

Anne, I'm very glad to hear you're feeling better and that you're able to cut again! I'm still feeling the switch and am still messing up my dosing. I need to get used to my new system. I'm just practicing this week and not making cuts. Today I found out my son has an amazing talent for unscrewing those tiny 5mg capsules. I had to try to cut them open and kept stabbing myself. I wonder if he can teach his technique to my daughter? If not, I'll be making frequent trips to his apartment with my bottle of L asking him for help! And then he will wonder what happened to his great plan to escape from me and why didn't he move farther away?? 

 

Gard

[[an...]]

 

 

Anne, I'm very glad to hear you're feeling better and that you're able to cut again! I'm still feeling the switch and am still messing up my dosing. I need to get used to my new system. I'm just practicing this week and not making cuts. Today I found out my son has an amazing talent for unscrewing those tiny 5mg capsules. I had to try to cut them open and kept stabbing myself. I wonder if he can teach his technique to my daughter? If not, I'll be making frequent trips to his apartment with my bottle of L asking him for help! And then he will wonder what happened to his great plan to escape from me and why didn't he move farther away?? 

 

Gard

 

Gardner,

 

I have no doubt it will take some time to get used to the new dosing schedule, but you will do it.  Good idea to not cut until you do get used to it.  You should be able to pull the capsule apart with some practice.  I know it can be a bit tricky but once you are able to do one, you should be okay.  Maybe you could practice using another type of capsule (like a vitamin capsule) so you don't waste the Librium--at least until you get the hang of it.  Then again, it is a good way to keep in touch with your son.

 

I am still feeling some symptoms especially if I get stressed or even if I over exert myself.  I thought I would try cutting again though to see if the symptoms improve.  I think I get used to a dose very quickly.

 

Have a good night.

 

Anne

[[or...]]

Hey, gardener! Congratulations on ditching the X.

 

If I might ask you . . . what dose of gabapentin are you on?

 

Okatz

[[jr...]]

How are you feeling Oregan since the jump?

[[or...]]

jr I'm feeling not too bad. I still have some days with my old rotten s/x but mostly they are not as frequent and not as severe. I'll be happy when they all ebb away, but I have to just be patient about it. 

 

Hope you are doing okay.

 

Okatz

[[jr...]]

jr I'm feeling not too bad. I still have some days with my old rotten s/x but mostly they are not as frequent and not as severe. I'll be happy when they all ebb away, but I have to just be patient about it. 

 

Hope you are doing okay.

 

Okatz

 

I am doing well. Thanks. I am about 2 months away from jumping but I am trying to not rush and have a protracted withdrawal. Glad you are doing well and hope eveyday is an improvement.

[[Ma...]]

Gard,

Congrats on C/O to Librium! I hope everything else is good!

 

XO Maya 

 

Thanks, Maya. I'm very glad to be off of the Xanax. Now I just need a way to remember to take both my L capsules and liquid at each dose. So far so bad!    Fortunately, L is much more forgiving than X!

 

Gard

Hey Gard,

I am sure you will get the hang of it soon! Also you get to dose a lot less. I hope all else is well. Stay in touch! I think of you often and wish you well, always!

 

XO Maya 

[[ga...]]

Hey, gardener! Congratulations on ditching the X.

 

If I might ask you . . . what dose of gabapentin are you on?

 

Okatz

 

Thanks, Katz! Still a bumpy cross but still pressing on. OK, I'm really holding for a week, but that's my version of pressing on at the moment.

 

I take 900mg gabapentin when I take the 25mg of Q, usually 2 nights in a row. Then the next night I skip the Q and take 1,800mg gabapentin. This is an attempt to keep both of them working for sleep while also treating my restless leg syndrome and nerve pain. It's a merge of what my primary and my psychiatrist came up with. So far it works OK.

 

Gard

[[ga...]]

jr I'm feeling not too bad. I still have some days with my old rotten s/x but mostly they are not as frequent and not as severe. I'll be happy when they all ebb away, but I have to just be patient about it. 

 

Hope you are doing okay.

 

Okatz

 

Glad to hear you are seeing some improvement, Okatz!

[[ga...]]

Gard,

Congrats on C/O to Librium! I hope everything else is good!

 

XO Maya 

 

Thanks, Maya. I'm very glad to be off of the Xanax. Now I just need a way to remember to take both my L capsules and liquid at each dose. So far so bad!    Fortunately, L is much more forgiving than X!

 

Gard

Hey Gard,

I am sure you will get the hang of it soon! Also you get to dose a lot less. I hope all else is well. Stay in touch! I think of you often and wish you well, always!

 

XO Maya 

 

Thanks, Maya. I think of you, too and hope you are doing well!

 

Gard

[[Ul...]]

Hey, gardener! Congratulations on ditching the X.

 

If I might ask you . . . what dose of gabapentin are you on?

 

Okatz

 

Thanks, Katz! Still a bumpy cross but still pressing on. OK, I'm really holding for a week, but that's my version of pressing on at the moment.

 

I take 900mg gabapentin when I take the 25mg of Q, usually 2 nights in a row. Then the next night I skip the Q and take 1,800mg gabapentin. This is an attempt to keep both of them working for sleep while also treating my restless leg syndrome and nerve pain. It's a merge of what my primary and my psychiatrist came up with. So far it works OK.

 

Gard

 

Congrats, Gard!!! You're nailing it. Bless ya, girl!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Jeff

[[an...]]

Hey, gardener! Congratulations on ditching the X.

 

If I might ask you . . . what dose of gabapentin are you on?

 

Okatz

 

Thanks, Katz! Still a bumpy cross but still pressing on. OK, I'm really holding for a week, but that's my version of pressing on at the moment.

 

I take 900mg gabapentin when I take the 25mg of Q, usually 2 nights in a row. Then the next night I skip the Q and take 1,800mg gabapentin. This is an attempt to keep both of them working for sleep while also treating my restless leg syndrome and nerve pain. It's a merge of what my primary and my psychiatrist came up with. So far it works OK.

 

Gard

 

Congrats, Gard!!! You're nailing it. Bless ya, girl!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Jeff

 

Hi Jeff,

 

How are you doing?  I think of you often.  I am glad you found a doctor to prescribe.

 

I wish you all the best in 2016!!

Anne

[[ga...]]

Hey, gardener! Congratulations on ditching the X.

 

If I might ask you . . . what dose of gabapentin are you on?

 

Okatz

 

Thanks, Katz! Still a bumpy cross but still pressing on. OK, I'm really holding for a week, but that's my version of pressing on at the moment.

 

I take 900mg gabapentin when I take the 25mg of Q, usually 2 nights in a row. Then the next night I skip the Q and take 1,800mg gabapentin. This is an attempt to keep both of them working for sleep while also treating my restless leg syndrome and nerve pain. It's a merge of what my primary and my psychiatrist came up with. So far it works OK.

 

Gard

 

Congrats, Gard!!! You're nailing it. Bless ya, girl!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Jeff

 

Thanks, Jeff. I think of you often and hope you are going to be on your way to healing soon.

 

Gard

[[Ul...]]

Hey, gardener! Congratulations on ditching the X.

 

If I might ask you . . . what dose of gabapentin are you on?

 

Okatz

 

Thanks, Katz! Still a bumpy cross but still pressing on. OK, I'm really holding for a week, but that's my version of pressing on at the moment.

 

I take 900mg gabapentin when I take the 25mg of Q, usually 2 nights in a row. Then the next night I skip the Q and take 1,800mg gabapentin. This is an attempt to keep both of them working for sleep while also treating my restless leg syndrome and nerve pain. It's a merge of what my primary and my psychiatrist came up with. So far it works OK.

 

Gard

 

Congrats, Gard!!! You're nailing it. Bless ya, girl!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Jeff

 

Hi Jeff,

 

How are you doing?  I think of you often.  I am glad you found a doctor to prescribe.

 

I wish you all the best in 2016!!

Anne

 

Hi Anne!

 

Actually, haven't been doing very well at all due to multiple challenges, but I sure don't want to sound so "woe is me" here on the site. I haven't been able to cut for a really long time, but I'm doing the best I can with all that's going on. Long story, but things will be fine in the end.

 

Thanks for checking in!! Have a super weekend.

 

Jeff