Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[...]]

Well, feeling pretty defeated.

This all started for me back in December 2014. I made my initial cut (before I knew I was dependent and having had not one dr tell me to taper)  I developed awful joint and muscle pain and tachycardia. Then 6 months later, despite doctors refusing to believe me, I knew it was benzos and tried to transition to Valium. I then developed severe tachycardia that is now managed with beta blocker but pain also became so severe I left work and moved in with family. Since that failed crossover attempt I have seen only minor improvement in pain. So six months on a stable dose but body never truly stabilized as I have been in pain 24/7 since then.

So I recently transitioned to compound Ativan and held there for two weeks. No problems at all with transition from pill to compound liquid Ativan. Feeling like I was stable from transition I began daily microtaper. Plan was to decrease by .0025 per day. I went even more conservative and did .00125mg of a per day. 3 days in and my pain levels increased to an unbearable level. Ruined my holiday. I held there for several days until I could no longer bear the pain and went back to original dose. So if I can't even decrease at a rate that minuscule, without landing myself bedridden and crying in constant horrid pain. I don't see myself ever coming off this poison.  :'(

 

What is your dose now?  If it is .5mg A then you certainly did begin conservatively.

 

The thing that bother me is that .00125mg x3 from .5mg is less than 1%.  I'd think the daily fluctuation is more than that.  Pills are not made that accurately for example.  Do you think there could be some kind of error with the liquid or in the way you dosed?  I'm looking for other explanations for your symptoms.

[[Kg...]]

Elizabeth:  I assume you have seen your oncologist as well - so I don't know what else to suggest except perhaps to try crossing over to another benzo which would allow you to taper from it.    If all benzos while on them cause you to have this intractable pain then it would seem to me you just need to get off and if I were suffering at such a small cut (assuming that your liquid is accurate as SG said) I would do the reverse and just get off at a pace that would allow me a safe but quick taper.  Sometimes the lower we go on the benzo the better we feel.  I know this doesn't make sense but it appears to me that you need to get this drug out of your system.  I would see if there was something else that I could take to relieve the pain on the way down - whatever that may be. 

 

[[bu...]]

 

How do people travel when doing a liquid taper. I can't figure out how to safely transport a small glass container of liquid V (will use a 1:99.ratio). Silly question, I know, but I drop EVERYTHING these days. My arms/hands have a mind of their own.

 

I saw a thread that claims liquid V contains "neuro-toxic?" ingredients....polypropylene glycol (the stuff in Miralax). I wish I'd never read that thread, but I did and now I can't stop worrying about it. Ridiculous, I know, but I'm so sensitive about what I read, the worry machine won't turn off.

 

 

    Just put a lid on and carry it like a water bottle...no big deal.  Put it in your pocket, your backpack, your purse, whatever.

 

BTW, did you worry about all the excipients in your tablets?  How about the known, well-documented "neuro-toxic" effects of the valium itself?

 

"The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has classified propylene glycol as "generally recognized as safe," which means that it is acceptable for use in flavorings, drugs, and cosmetics, and as a direct food additive. According to the World Health Organization, the acceptable dietary intake of propylene glycol is 25 mg of propylene glycol for every kilogram (kg) of body weight."

 

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/phs/phs.asp?id=1120&tid=240

 

Based on that, if you weigh 150#, your safe PG intake is 1700 mg.  I think your OK!  You'll be fine, quit worrying.  I used Rx liquid V for 2 years and the onlky "side effect" was a safely withdrew from Valium with very few WD fxs!

 

 

 

[[Le...]]

Thanks Builder.

[[an...]]

 

How do people travel when doing a liquid taper. I can't figure out how to safely transport a small glass container of liquid V (will use a 1:99.ratio). Silly question, I know, but I drop EVERYTHING these days. My arms/hands have a mind of their own.

 

I saw a thread that claims liquid V contains "neuro-toxic?" ingredients....polypropylene glycol (the stuff in Miralax). I wish I'd never read that thread, but I did and now I can't stop worrying about it. Ridiculous, I know, but I'm so sensitive about what I read, the worry machine won't turn off.

 

 

    Just put a lid on and carry it like a water bottle...no big deal.  Put it in your pocket, your backpack, your purse, whatever.

 

BTW, did you worry about all the excipients in your tablets?  How about the known, well-documented "neuro-toxic" effects of the valium itself?

 

"The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has classified propylene glycol as "generally recognized as safe," which means that it is acceptable for use in flavorings, drugs, and cosmetics, and as a direct food additive. According to the World Health Organization, the acceptable dietary intake of propylene glycol is 25 mg of propylene glycol for every kilogram (kg) of body weight."

 

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/phs/phs.asp?id=1120&tid=240

 

Based on that, if you weigh 150#, your safe PG intake is 1700 mg.  I think your OK!  You'll be fine, quit worrying.  I used Rx liquid V for 2 years and the onlky "side effect" was a safely withdrew from Valium with very few WD fxs!

 

:thumbsup:

[[jr...]]

My gut feeling is that I have beat the addiction of the drug, but I still have slight anxiety, tingling in the arms, and some GI issues. I am about 6 weeks from jumping. Am I just fooling myself or did others feel they had beat the drug b4 they actually jumped?I do not plan to jump early either way but my curiosity is making me wonder If I could jump. My current dose is .0412, .0412, .0412, .2175

[[Be...]]

My gut feeling is that I have beat the addiction of the drug, but I still have slight anxiety, tingling in the arms, and some GI issues. I am about 6 weeks from jumping. Am I just fooling myself or did others feel they had beat the drug b4 they actually jumped?I do not plan to jump early either way but my curiosity is making me wonder If I could jump. My current dose is .0412, .0412, .0412, .2175

 

Your doses are in mg or grams? Either way, no way I'd jump now, if I were you. We just really do not know the power this drug has on us individually, until the taper is over. Withdrawal is not over till it's over. Keep at it and don't shoot yourself in the foot. I had same thoughts of quitting early. Benzos are tricksters.

[[El...]]

Well, feeling pretty defeated.

This all started for me back in December 2014. I made my initial cut (before I knew I was dependent and having had not one dr tell me to taper)  I developed awful joint and muscle pain and tachycardia. Then 6 months later, despite doctors refusing to believe me, I knew it was benzos and tried to transition to Valium. I then developed severe tachycardia that is now managed with beta blocker but pain also became so severe I left work and moved in with family. Since that failed crossover attempt I have seen only minor improvement in pain. So six months on a stable dose but body never truly stabilized as I have been in pain 24/7 since then.

So I recently transitioned to compound Ativan and held there for two weeks. No problems at all with transition from pill to compound liquid Ativan. Feeling like I was stable from transition I began daily microtaper. Plan was to decrease by .0025 per day. I went even more conservative and did .00125mg of a per day. 3 days in and my pain levels increased to an unbearable level. Ruined my holiday. I held there for several days until I could no longer bear the pain and went back to original dose. So if I can't even decrease at a rate that minuscule, without landing myself bedridden and crying in constant horrid pain. I don't see myself ever coming off this poison.  :'(

 

What is your dose now?  If it is .5mg A then you certainly did begin conservatively.

 

The thing that bother me is that .00125mg x3 from .5mg is less than 1%.  I'd think the daily fluctuation is more than that.  Pills are not made that accurately for example.  Do you think there could be some kind of error with the liquid or in the way you dosed?  I'm looking for other explanations for your symptoms.

 

Yes, Ativan is still .5. It's insane, I know. I don't think there is a problem with the compound A. I transitioned to it from pill form really smoothly. I stayed on it two weeks before cutting and had no problems during those two weeks. I am pretty methodical with my dosing so I don't think I made an error. My rx is .125/ml. So a reduction of .00125 is one single tic mark down each cut, basically 1/100th.

[[...]]

What is your dose now?  If it is .5mg A then you certainly did begin conservatively.

 

The thing that bother me is that .00125mg x3 from .5mg is less than 1%.  I'd think the daily fluctuation is more than that.  Pills are not made that accurately for example.  Do you think there could be some kind of error with the liquid or in the way you dosed?  I'm looking for other explanations for your symptoms.

 

Yes, Ativan is still .5. It's insane, I know. I don't think there is a problem with the compound A. I transitioned to it from pill form really smoothly. I stayed on it two weeks before cutting and had no problems during those two weeks. I am pretty methodical with my dosing so I don't think I made an error. My rx is .125/ml. So a reduction of .00125 is one single tic mark down each cut, basically 1/100th.

 

I could be wrong, but I honestly don't think a reduction of .00375mg at a dose of .5mg is enough to feel let alone enough to cause harsh symptoms.  And on top of that it was spread over several days so your body had time to adjust.

 

Cutting is not the only way blood levels can go down.  Foods and other meds can do it too, although I don't think A is metabolized by the liver.  It still might be possible to affect it.  I don't know much about how A is metabolized.

 

This is mysterious.  Try to think of other things that coincided with the reduction.  What was different?  Foods?  A new med?

[[jr...]]

My gut feeling is that I have beat the addiction of the drug, but I still have slight anxiety, tingling in the arms, and some GI issues. I am about 6 weeks from jumping. Am I just fooling myself or did others feel they had beat the drug b4 they actually jumped?I do not plan to jump early either way but my curiosity is making me wonder If I could jump. My current dose is .0412, .0412, .0412, .2175

 

Your doses are in mg or grams? Either way, no way I'd jump now, if I were you. We just really do not know the power this drug has on us individually, until the taper is over. Withdrawal is not over till it's over. Keep at it and don't shoot yourself in the foot. I had same thoughts of quitting early. Benzos are tricksters.

 

 

my doses are in mgs.

[[El...]]

What is your dose now?  If it is .5mg A then you certainly did begin conservatively.

 

The thing that bother me is that .00125mg x3 from .5mg is less than 1%.  I'd think the daily fluctuation is more than that.  Pills are not made that accurately for example.  Do you think there could be some kind of error with the liquid or in the way you dosed?  I'm looking for other explanations for your symptoms.

 

Yes, Ativan is still .5. It's insane, I know. I don't think there is a problem with the compound A. I transitioned to it from pill form really smoothly. I stayed on it two weeks before cutting and had no problems during those two weeks. I am pretty methodical with my dosing so I don't think I made an error. My rx is .125/ml. So a reduction of .00125 is one single tic mark down each cut, basically 1/100th.

 

I could be wrong, but I honestly don't think a reduction of .00375mg at a dose of .5mg is enough to feel let alone enough to cause harsh symptoms.  And on top of that it was spread over several days so your body had time to adjust.

 

Cutting is not the only way blood levels can go down.  Foods and other meds can do it too, although I don't think A is metabolized by the liver.  It still might be possible to affect it.  I don't know much about how A is metabolized.

 

This is mysterious.  Try to think of other things that coincided with the reduction.  What was different?  Foods?  A new med?

 

I know, its nuts. Given what I know about myself I am pretty cautious. So there were no med changes, no alcohol....nothing I can think of. I am on a pretty limited diet (mostly fruits, veggies, nuts, eggs and chicken) so I can't imagine it was a food. I did however indulge in a few foods I don't eat on a regular basis because of the holidays but nothing that was totally new. And I indulged over thanksgiving with no issue as well.

I guess the only way to know would be to try and reduce again. I'm just so hesitant because of how much pain it put me in. Day one was ok. Day two I felt the heaviness in my arms and by the end of day three my pain spiked. I held there for five days before I just couldn't take it anymore and went back to my starting dose.

Argh. I'm exhausted. 

[[...]]

I could be wrong, but I honestly don't think a reduction of .00375mg at a dose of .5mg is enough to feel let alone enough to cause harsh symptoms.  And on top of that it was spread over several days so your body had time to adjust.

 

Cutting is not the only way blood levels can go down.  Foods and other meds can do it too, although I don't think A is metabolized by the liver.  It still might be possible to affect it.  I don't know much about how A is metabolized.

 

This is mysterious.  Try to think of other things that coincided with the reduction.  What was different?  Foods?  A new med?

 

I know, it's nuts. STORY OF MY LIFE. I dont see how it's possible either.....BUT on many, many, occasions in my life i have been told by Drs that "I've never seen this before" and I live in a major US city with a vast medical community. I had lots of complications during cancer treatment but two that required hospitalization. One MD was stunned at a complication that resulted from the placement of a chemo port. Something he had been doing for 25 years. He said he had never ever seen it happen. I had residents pouring into my hospital room because it was such a mystery. Also multiple medical experts trying to determine what in the world happened. Felt like an animal at the zoo. It would have been amusing if I wasn't the one it happened to. During a hospital stay for a different complication the MD said he had only saw this particular issue happen every 3-4 years. He is considered the local expert and has been in practice for over 30 years. I could go on and on. I reacted really badly to one medication during chemo and my oncologist, at this point knowing about other issues said, "this almost never happens, but knowing your history, I'm not surprised that you would be the one". I truly react very poorly to meds and medical intervention in general. I could spend hours writing about all the things that have happened to me (since childhood) that Drs are dumbfounded by. Just the fact alone that I got cancer at  a young age...only 5% of all cases of this type of cancer occur in those under 40. Swear my body is a lemon. I want a new one!!!!!

Anyway, back to this mess. Given what I know about myself I am pretty cautious. So there were no med changes, no alcohol....nothing I can think of. I am on a pretty limited diet (mostly fruits, veggies, nuts, eggs and chicken) so I can't imagine it was a food. I did however indulge in a few foods I don't eat on a regular basis because of the holidays but nothing that was totally new. And I indulged over thanksgiving with no issue as well.

I guess the only way to know would be to try and reduce again. I'm just so hesitant because of how much pain it put me in. Day one was ok. Day two I felt the heaviness in my arms and by the end of day three my pain spiked. I held there for five days before I just couldn't take it anymore and went back to my starting dose.

Argh. I'm exhausted. 

 

Yeah, trying to reduce again is logical.  Good idea.  If something else caused symptoms they are not likely to return, but if it was the taper they will return.  It should tell you that answer.  .00125mg is .25% of .5mg...that is very very conservative.  I'd also point out there is nothing stopping you from beginning even slower if you wanted.

 

 

 

[[an...]]

Elizabeth,

 

I agree with SG that it is worth trying again.  A smaller cut might be the way to go. 

 

Anne

[[ga...]]

I decided to finish my crossover to Librium. I tired opening the capsules and shaking the powder in water. Didn't work well at all. The powder sank to the bottom quickly. The jar leaked. No idea how much Librium I actually took last night or this morning.

 

Sent my son to get some 80 proof vodka. Could someone refresh my memory? How much vodka to safely dissolve one 5mg capsule of Librium? Thanks.

 

Gard

[[an...]]

Happy New Year Gardner!! I wish you all the best this year.

 

Glad to hear your son got home safely.  How are you doing with the crossover?  Things here are okay.  I have been experiencing an uptick in symptoms, but they are manageable so far. They do interfere though with daily life though so I am hoping things get a bit better before I go back to work in a few weeks.  I have been holding now for over a month, and things have improved a bit.  I remember feeling great for several weeks, so I hope to get to that point again. I think I will start cutting again tomorrow. I am sure holiday stress has a lot to do with the increased symptoms. 

 

I hope you are having a good day. I think of you a lot.

 

Anne 

 

I think of you, too, Anne. I know how hard teaching is and am always glad to hear that you're managing to work through your taper. I'm very sorry to hear about your uptick in symptoms. I'm sure holiday stress is a big player in this. It sure was for me. I'm still recovering from it, but I do think I'm recovering.

 

My son is moving out this weekend. I'm very nervous about him both trying be on his own for the first time and trying to go to college full time for the first time. There is no on-campus housing, so he had to find an apartment. With great difficulty, I talked him into at least getting one on the bus line since his very old vehicle is always breaking down (on New Year's Eve, for example, which was why he was so late). He has always struggled academically because he doesn't juggle a complicated schedule well. And now he's planning to work full time so he can be on his own and go to school full time. Oh, dear. I couldn't talk him into waiting one semester. He's an adult, so it is what it is. Just wish the timing were better for all involved. My daughter took pity on me and is planning to move home so I'm not alone. She has one semester of classes left and then student teaching, which she can do near me. I haven't lived alone since I was in college myself! And that is more years ago than I'm admitting!

 

I am coming down to near the end of my crossover. Next week I'm going to just try pushing my taper faster and see what happens. If that goes well, I'll finish crossing the next week and be all on L. And then I'll be able to work on my sleep issues without having to deal with the Xanax not-merry-go-round all day and all night! I'll be dosing only 2 times a day! I can hardly believe it! Gosh, hope I didn't just jinx myself by saying I had only 2 weeks left on Xanax! Don't tell anybody!

 

Thanks for keeping us posted on your progress. Good luck with starting your taper again! Hope you get a break in symptoms soon and can enjoy the rest of your school holiday.

 

Gard

 

Hi Gardner,

 

Don't worry, I won't tell. Your secret is safe with me lol.  :-X  It will be much better dosing only twice a day rather than six times daily!!  I am not sure I could do that.  It certainly would interfere with much needed sleep.  I am sorry about your son, but he will find out that full time college and working full time sometimes do not work out.  On the other hand, he does not have kids to worry about so he should be okay. At least he followed your advice about finding a place close to the bus line. Sometimes kids just need to find out on their own--they do not realize that we have all been through these things and we are capable of giving excellent advice.  I am happy to hear your daughter will be moving close by. That is certainly a good thing.

 

I hope that you feel better once you are fully crossed over. It will be nice to focus on other things and also enjoy life a bit. Just hang in there--you will do it!!  I have no doubt about that. 

 

Hope you are having a good day!!

 

Love and Hugs,  Anne  :smitten:

[[Ja...]]

Hi! I need some support!  i am sorry I am so math challenged and so whacked i am having a hard time figuring this out.

I want to do a microtaper.

Still need to stabilize on 5mg of Valium after cold turkey and then fast taper.

Back to 5mg valium.

Once I am able to taper where do i go from here? can i do it dry?

[[ga...]]

 

Hi Gardner,

 

Don't worry, I won't tell. Your secret is safe with me lol.  :-X 

 

Love and Hugs,  Anne  :smitten:

 

:laugh:

[[an...]]

I decided to finish my crossover to Librium. I tired opening the capsules and shaking the powder in water. Didn't work well at all. The powder sank to the bottom quickly. The jar leaked. No idea how much Librium I actually took last night or this morning.

 

Sent my son to get some 80 proof vodka. Could someone refresh my memory? How much vodka to safely dissolve one 5mg capsule of Librium? Thanks.

 

Gard

 

Gardener,

 

You need a jar that will not leak when you shake it.  This jar is expensive, but I use them and am able to carry them in my purse with no leakage whatsoever.  They come in 100 mL and 250 mL sizes. Which one you purchase will depend on how much liquid you use. They are also sturdy--I have dropped mine on the floor many times with no damage done.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004XR5T48?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

 

I do not remember how much vodka is needed for Librium.  I know it is recommended to use 2 mL for each mg of valium, but not sure about the Librium.  Maybe try about 2 mL? I just checked on PubMed and it says that 20 mg will dissolve in 1 mL of vodka.  The Librium should dissolve in water from what I have read, but the fillers will most likely not dissolve.  Just make sure you shake the container well before removing your dose.  If you use a syringe to measure the dose, make sure that after taking the dose, you draw up some water into the syringe and drink it.  This will ensure you have all of the medication. If you drink it right from the container, then after drinking, swirl some water around in the container and drink. 

 

Good luck Gardner.  You will do it!!

 

Anne

[[jr...]]

Hi! I need some support!  i am sorry I am so math challenged and so whacked i am having a hard time figuring this out.

I want to do a microtaper.

Still need to stabilize on 5mg of Valium after cold turkey and then fast taper.

Back to 5mg valium.

Once I am able to taper where do i go from here? can i do it dry?

 

Yes you can do it dry. The recommended reduction is 5-10% every two weeks. If you are on 5mg valium a 10% cut would be .5 mg or a 5% cut would be .25 mg. If you wanted to do a microtaper which is what I am doing , you could weigh your pills on a gram scale and cut each day reaching a 5-10% cut every 2 weeks. there are several ways to do a microtaper but I crush my pills and then weigh off my dose. I put it in a bottle, add water, and drink it. Good luck. there are lots of people on here willing to help you find your way.

[[ga...]]

I decided to finish my crossover to Librium. I tired opening the capsules and shaking the powder in water. Didn't work well at all. The powder sank to the bottom quickly. The jar leaked. No idea how much Librium I actually took last night or this morning.

 

Sent my son to get some 80 proof vodka. Could someone refresh my memory? How much vodka to safely dissolve one 5mg capsule of Librium? Thanks.

 

Gard

 

Gardener,

 

You need a jar that will not leak when you shake it.  This jar is expensive, but I use them and am able to carry them in my purse with no leakage whatsoever.  They come in 100 mL and 250 mL sizes. Which one you purchase will depend on how much liquid you use. They are also sturdy--I have dropped mine on the floor many times with no damage done.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004XR5T48?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

 

I do not remember how much vodka is needed for Librium.  I know it is recommended to use 2 mL for each mg of valium, but not sure about the Librium.  Maybe try about 2 mL? I just checked on PubMed and it says that 20 mg will dissolve in 1 mL of vodka.  The Librium should dissolve in water from what I have read, but the fillers will most likely not dissolve.  Just make sure you shake the container well before removing your dose.  If you use a syringe to measure the dose, make sure that after taking the dose, you draw up some water into the syringe and drink it.  This will ensure you have all of the medication. If you drink it right from the container, then after drinking, swirl some water around in the container and drink. 

 

Good luck Gardner.  You will do it!!

 

Anne

 

Thanks, Anne. I'll have to think this over. I do want to use the alcohol because I'm just not confident about pure water. Seeing all that powder sink so fast to the bottom made me very nervous.

 

I looked at the jar. It looks very handy. My tiny Xanax tapering jars do not leak at all either, but are way too small for what I now need (60ML). My big jars leak that I was just using to store the X solution do leak. 

 

Do you have trouble pulling up your dose form a jar with such a narrow top? Right now I am using 60 ml of water because it works with the percentages I'm doing. I'm not actually trying to reduce, just finish my crossover. I was at a place where I needed to add 1 1/2 capsules to replace my Xanax so I thought that would be an easy place to do the crossover (math-wise). ANd it should be, if I can just figure out how to dissolve and dilute.

 

Could you put up the link to the Pub Med article? I can't seem to find it. Thanks!

 

Gard

[[an...]]

 

Thanks, Anne. I'll have to think this over. I do want to use the alcohol because I'm just not confident about pure water. Seeing all that powder sink so fast to the bottom made me very nervous.

 

I looked at the jar. It looks very handy. My tiny Xanax tapering jars do not leak at all either, but are way too small for what I now need (60ML). My big jars leak that I was just using to store the X solution do leak. 

 

Do you have trouble pulling up your dose form a jar with such a narrow top? Right now I am using 60 ml of water because it works with the percentages I'm doing. I'm not actually trying to reduce, just finish my crossover. I was at a place where I needed to add 1 1/2 capsules to replace my Xanax so I thought that would be an easy place to do the crossover (math-wise). ANd it should be, if I can just figure out how to dissolve and dilute.

 

Could you put up the link to the Pub Med article? I can't seem to find it. Thanks!

 

Gard

 

Gardner,

 

I have no problem pulling my doses.  I pour the main dose into a graduated cylinder and remove the remainder with a 10 mL syringe.  The 100 mL jar will be perfect if you are only using 60 mL.  Like I said, I can carry them in my purse with no problem.

 

The link to the information is

 

https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/chlordiazepoxide#section=Top

 

Click on "chemical and physical properties".  It will take you down to the solubility information. I seem to remember having a discussion about the stability of Librium in aqueous solutions.  I would prepare your dose and then take it right away.  I do not think I would keep it for more than 2 days.  It is also light sensitive.  You can put some foil around the container.

 

Anne

 

[[...]]

I decided to finish my crossover to Librium. I tired opening the capsules and shaking the powder in water. Didn't work well at all. The powder sank to the bottom quickly. The jar leaked. No idea how much Librium I actually took last night or this morning.

 

Sent my son to get some 80 proof vodka. Could someone refresh my memory? How much vodka to safely dissolve one 5mg capsule of Librium? Thanks.

 

Gard

 

Pure ethanol will dissolve 19.5mg/ml Librium, but 80 proof vodka will only dissolve 2.9mg/ml.  Your caps are 5mg each I think, so I'd use at least 4ml or more.

 

Librium is the one with a confusing story.  Past BB members seem to have been able to use plain water to dissolve it (look up Oscar), but the data from Jouyban says water only dissolves .11mg/ml.  If you remember, we then were researching chlordiazepoxide HCl  - which has a much higher solubility in water - and were wondering if this was the actual dispensed drug.  Here's the solubility data from Jouyban...

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.40

 

If .11mg/ml is right you'd need a bare minimum of 46ml vodka/water to keep it dissolved.  I'd use at least 100ml.

[[ga...]]

 

Thanks, Anne. I'll have to think this over. I do want to use the alcohol because I'm just not confident about pure water. Seeing all that powder sink so fast to the bottom made me very nervous.

 

I looked at the jar. It looks very handy. My tiny Xanax tapering jars do not leak at all either, but are way too small for what I now need (60ML). My big jars leak that I was just using to store the X solution do leak. 

 

Do you have trouble pulling up your dose form a jar with such a narrow top? Right now I am using 60 ml of water because it works with the percentages I'm doing. I'm not actually trying to reduce, just finish my crossover. I was at a place where I needed to add 1 1/2 capsules to replace my Xanax so I thought that would be an easy place to do the crossover (math-wise). ANd it should be, if I can just figure out how to dissolve and dilute.

 

Could you put up the link to the Pub Med article? I can't seem to find it. Thanks!

 

Gard

 

Gardner,

 

I have no problem pulling my doses.  I pour the main dose into a graduated cylinder and remove the remainder with a 10 mL syringe.  The 100 mL jar will be perfect if you are only using 60 mL.  Like I said, I can carry them in my purse with no problem.

 

The link to the information is

 

https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/chlordiazepoxide#section=Top

 

Click on "chemical and physical properties".  It will take you down to the solubility information. I seem to remember having a discussion about the stability of Librium in aqueous solutions.  I would prepare your dose and then take it right away.  I do not think I would keep it for more than 2 days.  It is also light sensitive.  You can put some foil around the container.

 

Anne

 

Thanks, Anne. I did find some data that said L degrades in water and other liquids tested. But what it seemed to be degrading into was the active metabolite of L that has the very long half life which is what makes L a slow benzo. Can't remember from where, but this is what I copied down: At 37°C, CDP was rapidly degraded into demoxepam with a half-time of around 8.8 days.

 

So I figure on only making 2 days worth at once and keeping it cool. It degraded more slowly at cooler temperatures.

 

[[ga...]]

I decided to finish my crossover to Librium. I tired opening the capsules and shaking the powder in water. Didn't work well at all. The powder sank to the bottom quickly. The jar leaked. No idea how much Librium I actually took last night or this morning.

 

Sent my son to get some 80 proof vodka. Could someone refresh my memory? How much vodka to safely dissolve one 5mg capsule of Librium? Thanks.

 

Gard

 

Pure ethanol will dissolve 19.5mg/ml Librium, but 80 proof vodka will only dissolve 2.9mg/ml.  Your caps are 5mg each I think, so I'd use at least 4ml or more.

 

Librium is the one with a confusing story.  Past BB members seem to have been able to use plain water to dissolve it (look up Oscar), but the data from Jouyban says water only dissolves .11mg/ml.  If you remember, we then were researching chlordiazepoxide HCl  - which has a much higher solubility in water - and were wondering if this was the actual dispensed drug.  Here's the solubility data from Jouyban...

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.40

 

If .11mg/ml is right you'd need a bare minimum of 46ml vodka/water to keep it dissolved.  I'd use at least 100ml.

 

Thanks SG. You said 80 proof vodka will only dissolve 2.9mg L. But how much 80 proof vodka? I don't understand where the numbers came from. And if I don't understand, I will fret!

 

Can I do this: dissolve one 5mg capsule in 10ml vodka (an easy line to see on my cylinder) and add 90ml water, pour into my jar and stir?

 

Then, if I have the L dissolved, do I need to shake it in a leak-proof bottle or is that only if it's a suspension? So far I don't have a leak-proof bottle of the correct size.

 

I'm hoping to be able to stir it up and store similar to the way I was doing it with my wonderful-evil-just-add-water Xanax solution. I want to make this is as similar to what I was doing before as possible. I won't be having my kids to help me with mixing up my doses any more. I need to keep this as simple and familiar as possible. I'm pretty sure I totally messed up my dosing attempts yesterday.   And my anxiety has been high and my sleep poor lately, so easy is what I'm looking for.

 

Thanks.

 

Gard

[[...]]

Pure ethanol will dissolve 19.5mg/ml Librium, but 80 proof vodka will only dissolve 2.9mg/ml.  Your caps are 5mg each I think, so I'd use at least 4ml or more.

 

Librium is the one with a confusing story.  Past BB members seem to have been able to use plain water to dissolve it (look up Oscar), but the data from Jouyban says water only dissolves .11mg/ml.  If you remember, we then were researching chlordiazepoxide HCl  - which has a much higher solubility in water - and were wondering if this was the actual dispensed drug.  Here's the solubility data from Jouyban...

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.40

 

If .11mg/ml is right you'd need a bare minimum of 46ml vodka/water to keep it dissolved.  I'd use at least 100ml.

 

Thanks SG. You said 80 proof vodka will only dissolve 2.9mg L. But how much 80 proof vodka? I don't understand where the numbers came from. And if I don't understand, I will fret!

 

Can I do this: dissolve one 5mg capsule in 10ml vodka (an easy line to see on my cylinder) and add 90ml water, pour into my jar and stir?

 

Then, if I have the L dissolved, do I need to shake it in a leak-proof bottle or is that only if it's a suspension? So far I don't have a leak-proof bottle of the correct size.

 

I'm hoping to be able to stir it up and store similar to the way I was doing it with my wonderful-evil-just-add-water Xanax solution. I want to make this is as similar to what I was doing before as possible. I won't be having my kids to help me with mixing up my doses any more. I need to keep this as simple and familiar as possible. I'm pretty sure I totally messed up my dosing attempts yesterday.   And my anxiety has been high and my sleep poor lately, so easy is what I'm looking for.

 

Thanks.

 

Gard

 

2.9mg per ml - so 1ml will dissolve 2.9mg and 2ml will dissolve 5.8mg.  So 2ml is near bare minimum for a 5mg cap.  I think 4ml would be fine and 10ml would also be fine, but is overkill.  These numbers came from Jouyban, which is the data in the link.  I consider it the most reliable data we have for benzo solubility.  The lab procedures were careful and spelled out in his papers, which are available online in full text.  It's like he knew we would need it.

 

The procedure you mentioned sounds fine, but 10ml might be overkill.  Once it is dissolved I don't think it is necessary to shake or stir again.