Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[Ma...]]

Mana,

I always like to know where I am in mgs. I will give you the formula I use, just in case it helps. You may already know this.

It is current dose in grams divided by average gram weight and then multiplied by pill increment.

 

XO Maya

[[ga...]]

JR, some people dose Xanax as often as 6 times/day, including in the night if they are the type to wake up in the night. I found as I got lower, I needed to dose more often. And it's really better to keep all the doses as even as possible, both in amount and spacing.

 

Gard

[[jr...]]

Thanks Gard. I may have to set y alarm clock. you know how hard it is to make changes. but we do what we have to.

[[re...]]

 

 

At my next taper I am going to a daily liquid taper.

 

I'm at 1.5 mg in am and 2 mg in pm dose of valium

 

I'm kinda worried that the pill won't be evenly dispersed in the milk (won't do vodka)

 

Also, do all of you notice micro tapering make the withdraw more tolerable?

 

[[...]]

It's hard to say what is going on as mornings are often a time of higher symptoms due to cortisol.  And you seem to say that the celexa gives you relief which makes me wonder if you need to dose the celexa more often.

 

I guess i should have told you i take 45mg remeron at bedtime. I would be scared to take more celexa due to serotonin syndrome. I may adjust my dosages to where i take more at bedtime. I go to the pdoc next week and he may have some ideas.

 

I did not mean take more celexa, I meant break up the existing dose into more smaller doses.  Celexa and remeron are both capable of producing interdose withdrawal symptoms very similar to benzos so it is good to be aware of that possibility.

[[...]]

 

 

At my next taper I am going to a daily liquid taper.

 

I'm at 1.5 mg in am and 2 mg in pm dose of valium

 

I'm kinda worried that the pill won't be evenly dispersed in the milk (won't do vodka)

 

Also, do all of you notice micro tapering make the withdraw more tolerable?

 

Milk will work well for V.  Make sure it is full fat whole milk.

[[jr...]]

It's hard to say what is going on as mornings are often a time of higher symptoms due to cortisol.  And you seem to say that the celexa gives you relief which makes me wonder if you need to dose the celexa more often.

 

I guess i should have told you i take 45mg remeron at bedtime. I would be scared to take more celexa due to serotonin syndrome. I may adjust my dosages to where i take more at bedtime. I go to the pdoc next week and he may have some ideas.

 

I did not mean take more celexa, I meant break up the existing dose into more smaller doses.  Celexa and remeron are both capable of producing interdose withdrawal symptoms very similar to benzos so it is good to be aware of that possibility.

 

OK thanks SG, I will give it all some thought and come up with a plan

[[bu...]]

 

 

At my next taper I am going to a daily liquid taper.

 

I'm at 1.5 mg in am and 2 mg in pm dose of valium

 

I'm kinda worried that the pill won't be evenly dispersed in the milk (won't do vodka)

 

Also, do all of you notice micro tapering make the withdraw more tolerable?

 

It will be!

 

I reached a point where C&H had really become impossible...was reconciled to taking V for the rest of my life.

 

But I was able to microtaper  with only occasional and minor sxs.

[[my...]]

Hi Maya,

So sweet of you to write and offer your formula!  SG gave me a way to calculate -- let me know if this makes sense to you:  multiply the gram weight by 2.907 to get the mg amount. 

 

Here is another question for anyone who can figure this one out....  I never had any trouble with the .125 dissolvable tabs.  I used them with the .5's (clonazepam) to taper from 2 mg to about .75 mg.  After that I began to weigh the halves of the .5 and shave off increasingly more each time.  The problem I'm having with that is that the tablet breaks up, as I don't actually file off, I cut off a tiny piece with a sharp knife or a razor knife...it's a mess...takes forever to weigh stuff and I'm always adding bits and pieces to the larger piece.  So I thought I might go back to using the smaller tabs. 

 

SG -- I guess it's the same principle as with the larger tabs...that is, weigh about 15 of the dissolvable tabs as grams take an average - and go from there.  You know - until around .75 mg I was doing everything by sight.  Never weighed anything...just kept cutting using .125's or half of them or a quarter toward the end which were my .03125 cuts.  Any thoughts on using the smaller pills as I keep going lower?  Actually, I do think others have chimed in, advising me and others to stick with the .5 mg tablets and cut from there.  Probably the best way...just a pain.  What else is new??

 

Thanks for all,

Mana

[[...]]

Hi Maya,

So sweet of you to write and offer your formula!  SG gave me a way to calculate -- let me know if this makes sense to you:  multiply the gram weight by 2.907 to get the mg amount. 

 

Here is another question for anyone who can figure this one out....  I never had any trouble with the .125 dissolvable tabs.  I used them with the .5's (clonazepam) to taper from 2 mg to about .75 mg.  After that I began to weigh the halves of the .5 and shave off increasingly more each time.  The problem I'm having with that is that the tablet breaks up, as I don't actually file off, I cut off a tiny piece with a sharp knife or a razor knife...it's a mess...takes forever to weigh stuff and I'm always adding bits and pieces to the larger piece.  So I thought I might go back to using the smaller tabs. 

 

SG -- I guess it's the same principle as with the larger tabs...that is, weigh about 15 of the dissolvable tabs as grams take an average - and go from there.  You know - until around .75 mg I was doing everything by sight.  Never weighed anything...just kept cutting using .125's or half of them or a quarter toward the end which were my .03125 cuts.  Any thoughts on using the smaller pills as I keep going lower?  Actually, I do think others have chimed in, advising me and others to stick with the .5 mg tablets and cut from there.  Probably the best way...just a pain.  What else is new??

 

Thanks for all,

Mana

 

I'm not familiar with those things.  I've heard they are crumbly and hard to handle.  But that aside, it comes down to a question of "dilution."  If .125mg divided by the pill weight is a smaller number than the .5mg pill divided by its weight then the .125mg pill would be more accurate to taper.  You want that number to be as small as possible.  How much do they weigh?

[[my...]]

I will weigh them and get back to you!

[[my...]]

SG,

They weigh .102 grams on average.  But you know...they can be split in half and maybe in quarters.  Beyond that they will crumble into powder.  It would be OK if I was continuing to cut by a particular amount, say .03125 mg.  Since I am cutting by 5% of the current dose each time (until I can no longer do that and begin a MT again ) using an exact number doesn't work. 

 

thoughts?

[[...]]

SG,

They weigh .102 grams on average.  But you know...they can be split in half and maybe in quarters.  Beyond that they will crumble into powder.  It would be OK if I was continuing to cut by a particular amount, say .03125 mg.  Since I am cutting by 5% of the current dose each time (until I can no longer do that and begin a MT again ) using an exact number doesn't work. 

 

thoughts?

 

.125mg/.102g=1.22mg/g.  .5mg K pills are about .5mg/.170g=2.94mg/g.  The .125mg wafers are much more dilute and therefor much more accurate to cut.  You can make cuts as small as .0012mg K where the .5g pills can only go as low as .0029mg.  If they aren't a pain to work with I'd say it is worth it to use them.  Big increase in accuracy.

[[my...]]

OK, then...  I'll try it when I prepare my doses for tomorrow.  Today, as I only decided to go ahead and make the cut after the a.m dose, I came out at .625 rather than .6213....not a big deal but not quite 5 %...will see how close I am able to get tonight 

 

Thanks, SG...be well.

 

mana 

[[ga...]]

Hey thread, Happy New Year! One step closer to freedom!

 

Me, I'm celebrating by waiting up to see if my son comes home in one piece from his very first date. (I don't know her but my daughter said, "Oh no, not her!" ) Long night ahead, but I'm armed with fudge-covered pretzels and lots of videos.

 

This single parenting of young "adults" will all be so much easier when I'm done with this taper. Right? If wrong, I do not want to know! 

 

To all others who are home tonight (which I consider the safe, sensible place to be) hugs to everybody!  And best wishes for a good New Year.

 

Gard

 

P.S. Son came home safe and sound at 4:30AM Not that I was listening for him or anything!

[[an...]]

Happy New Year Gardner!! I wish you all the best this year.

 

Glad to hear your son got home safely.  How are you doing with the crossover?  Things here are okay.  I have been experiencing an uptick in symptoms, but they are manageable so far. They do interfere though with daily life though so I am hoping things get a bit better before I go back to work in a few weeks.  I have been holding now for over a month, and things have improved a bit.  I remember feeling great for several weeks, so I hope to get to that point again. I think I will start cutting again tomorrow. I am sure holiday stress has a lot to do with the increased symptoms. 

 

I hope you are having a good day. I think of you a lot.

 

Anne 

[[El...]]

Well, feeling pretty defeated.

This all started for me back in December 2014. I made my initial cut (before I knew I was dependent and having had not one dr tell me to taper)  I developed awful joint and muscle pain and tachycardia. Then 6 months later, despite doctors refusing to believe me, I knew it was benzos and tried to transition to Valium. I then developed severe tachycardia that is now managed with beta blocker but pain also became so severe I left work and moved in with family. Since that failed crossover attempt I have seen only minor improvement in pain. So six months on a stable dose but body never truly stabilized as I have been in pain 24/7 since then.

So I recently transitioned to compound Ativan and held there for two weeks. No problems at all with transition from pill to compound liquid Ativan. Feeling like I was stable from transition I began daily microtaper. Plan was to decrease by .0025 per day. I went even more conservative and did .00125mg of a per day. 3 days in and my pain levels increased to an unbearable level. Ruined my holiday. I held there for several days until I could no longer bear the pain and went back to original dose. So if I can't even decrease at a rate that minuscule, without landing myself bedridden and crying in constant horrid pain. I don't see myself ever coming off this poison.  :'(

Saw my neurologist who seems to finally concede this is benzo related. He is very supportive and kind but doesn't know how to help me. He said he thinks in order to come off I'm going to need something to control pain but he doesn't know what that is. He threw out all kinds of ideas from, mmj, to ketamine infusions, but at the end of the appointment we were both at a loss. As nothing seemed like a great solution. I could tell he felt awful for me and really wants to do something to help. He completely understood my concern with neurontin and didn't push the suggestion after I discussed my concerns. I really feel hopeless. I know this isn't probably the best place to post this, but you all have helped me with my microtaper plan so I wanted to post where I knew you would see it. Just can't believe this is happening. All this torture because an oncologist perscribed Ativan for chemo nausea. Unreal.  :'(

[[ga...]]

Happy New Year Gardner!! I wish you all the best this year.

 

Glad to hear your son got home safely.  How are you doing with the crossover?  Things here are okay.  I have been experiencing an uptick in symptoms, but they are manageable so far. They do interfere though with daily life though so I am hoping things get a bit better before I go back to work in a few weeks.  I have been holding now for over a month, and things have improved a bit.  I remember feeling great for several weeks, so I hope to get to that point again. I think I will start cutting again tomorrow. I am sure holiday stress has a lot to do with the increased symptoms. 

 

I hope you are having a good day. I think of you a lot.

 

Anne 

 

I think of you, too, Anne. I know how hard teaching is and am always glad to hear that you're managing to work through your taper. I'm very sorry to hear about your uptick in symptoms. I'm sure holiday stress is a big player in this. It sure was for me. I'm still recovering from it, but I do think I'm recovering.

 

My son is moving out this weekend. I'm very nervous about him both trying be on his own for the first time and trying to go to college full time for the first time. There is no on-campus housing, so he had to find an apartment. With great difficulty, I talked him into at least getting one on the bus line since his very old vehicle is always breaking down (on New Year's Eve, for example, which was why he was so late). He has always struggled academically because he doesn't juggle a complicated schedule well. And now he's planning to work full time so he can be on his own and go to school full time. Oh, dear. I couldn't talk him into waiting one semester. He's an adult, so it is what it is. Just wish the timing were better for all involved. My daughter took pity on me and is planning to move home so I'm not alone. She has one semester of classes left and then student teaching, which she can do near me. I haven't lived alone since I was in college myself! And that is more years ago than I'm admitting!

 

I am coming down to near the end of my crossover. Next week I'm going to just try pushing my taper faster and see what happens. If that goes well, I'll finish crossing the next week and be all on L. And then I'll be able to work on my sleep issues without having to deal with the Xanax not-merry-go-round all day and all night! I'll be dosing only 2 times a day! I can hardly believe it! Gosh, hope I didn't just jinx myself by saying I had only 2 weeks left on Xanax! Don't tell anybody!

 

Thanks for keeping us posted on your progress. Good luck with starting your taper again! Hope you get a break in symptoms soon and can enjoy the rest of your school holiday.

 

Gard

[[ga...]]

Elizabeth, I'm sorry you're having such a rough time. Most of us have had setbacks and been in very bad places while we figured out what worked for us. When I couldn't manage to taper off of Xanax, I chose to cross to Librium. I've been working on that since summer. It's been very rough at times. I thought I wouldn't make it. But I'm near being done with Xanax and all on Librium. I didn't originally plan to cross, but it turned out to be right for me. You'll figure out what will work for you. Others have started and stopped and started and stopped and eventually gotten through it. You will, too. 

 

Gard

 

P.S. My pain is neuropathy and is somewhat controlled by gabapentin. Don't know if this would help you, but you could ask your doctor. It will have to be tapered, just like a benzo, but is supposed to be easier than tapering a benzo. Or so I hear. Hope so!

[[Kg...]]

Elizabeth:  So sorry to hear how awful you feel. If it was me I would get a 2nd medical opinion as to why I felt the way I did- sometimes it is not always a benzo and significant muscle pain can be caused by other illnesses and masked by a benzo.  While I was ruling out a medical issue and if it turns out not to be one - I would try some alternative medicine remedies - people have been helped by traditional chinese medicine, acupuncture which is known to help pain and also meditation.  There are many good you tubes for meditations for chronic pain.  I know it sounds silly but hot baths or cool baths with Epson salts helps. There are some types of massage therapy that are also helpful.    If you have not had blood work done I would have some to check to see how your levels of magnesium, Vit D etc are okay  as sometimes when we are on benzos we have deficiencies in these things so a simple supplement can often work for us and take away a s/x or at least make it bearable. I think until I did this I would hold off on tapering since it sounds to me like you have not felt well for a fairly long time.   

 

 

[[El...]]

Thanks Gardner. I tried neurontin about a decade ago for a now resolved pain issue. I reacted very badly to neurontin and am really concerned about trying it again. Also it didn't help that pain. And it just made me a mess. 

 

Hey Kgirl. We think the same. Have spent the last six months seeing multiple specialists, and have done tons of testing that has ruled out everything the drs can think of. They can't find anything wrong, and all my symptoms started within days of the cut from 1.5 mg of Ativan to 1mg back in 12/14. I have also seen various naturopath drs and have tried lots of different alternative treatments, including acupuncture, massage, yoga, magnesium(other vitamins and supplements too) vit d level is really good. Oh and I meditate daily, now completing and 8 week program for mindfulness I found in here.

 

[[my...]]

Hmmm,

Have just been reading, and then re-reading recent posts...

 

First of all, YES...a happier and healthier 2016 than the year that just ended to everyone here!  With thanks for all the support and info and encouragement given on this thread in particular and on BB's in general.

 

So, Elizabeth...tachycardia...I just checked as I was sure it was more than chest pain - which I have, I call it "chest pressure" but it hurts...it is sporadic...but when it is one of my symptoms du jour it feels like someone took their very strong large hand and clenched it around my heart!  Of course, tachycardia is more than that, and can be serious.  Are you under the care of a cardiologist?  If not, I would think about going to see one.  Though it may have been triggered by the initial, steep Ativan drop last December, at that point you described it as "mild" and yet it has progressed to severe..  Severe pain or severely rapid heartbeat?  Since I have no medical training and have no idea how one treats tachycardia, it seems that seeing a heart specialist to rule out any heart issues would be a good idea.  Maybe you have already done this.

 

I hope you are able to stabilize soon.  It does seem that maybe before additional tapering you might want to check that out once again.  I think either Anne or Gard or Kgirl suggested that.

 

I have found Neurontin (Gabapentin) to be somewhat helpful and not addicting - not anything at all - not even in the same universe as a benzo.  I was taking 600 mg last spring but was getting some edema in my ankles (a common side effect) and went down to 200 mg over a matter of, I think 4 weeks (reducing 100mg per week).  Now, in addition to the 200 mg I take at bedtime, I occasionally take another 100 mg when sxs ramp up.  It helps a little bit or maybe it's the placebo effect.  If it were not for the water retention, I would take more - as I found it very easy (as in no w/d at all) to taper.  I only tapered as I did b/c I thought it prudent plus my pdoc suggested to do it that way. 

 

Right now, I'm back to cutting .03125 as opposed to weighing pills.  I probably won't be able to do it for very long because the percentage drop will get to be too much, but for now, it's a nice break from the scale.  Basically, starting tomorrow, I am going to substitute the .125 tablets and split them up as needed to equal .625 mg.  I know many on BB do not like the dissolvable pills but I have used them - or did until I began weighing the halves of .5's - in conjunction with the .5's all the way from 1.5 to .75.  I have never, though, used them exclusively which I have to do now if I want to use them at all since my total dose is where it is.  We'll see how it goes!  Am hoping for the best.

 

Good night on this first evening of a brand new - and hopefully better year. 

 

Mana 

[[Le...]]

It's a new year, and time to start microtapering. I will use liquid V, and stay at same dose for two weeks so my body can adjust.  I will take the liquid V with my afternoon dose (dose 3xs a day).

 

Some quick/silly questions: 

 

How do people travel when doing a liquid taper. I can't figure out how to safely transport a small glass container of liquid V (will use a 1:99.ratio). Silly question, I know, but I drop EVERYTHING these days. My arms/hands have a mind of their own.

 

I saw a thread that claims liquid V contains "neuro-toxic?" ingredients....polypropylene glycol (the stuff in Miralax). I wish I'd never read that thread, but I did and now I can't stop worrying about it. Ridiculous, I know, but I'm so sensitive about what I read, the worry machine won't turn off.

 

Thanks for any suggestions. Switching to a microtaper is a bit nerve-wracking.

 

Happy New Year to everyone on this thread. I hope 2016 will bring continued healing to all.

[[El...]]

Hey Mana,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I edited my original post. Should not have put "mild" in describing my tachycardia (no idea why i did as it was far from mild)  it actually landed me in the hospital as Drs were concerned as to why a women in her 30s was having a constant unexplained rapid heart rate. I have had every test possible on my heart including even a heart MRI (crazy test to do as it takes two hours to complete). It was normal. Neurologist and cardiologist believe it's the nervous system that caused repaid heart rate. And I never had chest pains with it. I am currently under the care of a cardiologist and have been seen by 3 other cardiologists to get additional opinions. I have also been seen by 2 additional neurologists (beyond the one that is my current neuro) again, all believe my nervous system is to blame for tachycardia and pain. Although it has taken a lot of visits over th course of a year to get to the point where my current neuro agrees  this is the result of benzos, but he does finally agree. As for the worsening of pain and tachycardia that occurred when I attempted to transition to Valium 6 months after Ativan cut. My heart rate would get up into the 140s while I was asleep(should be in the 60-70s asleep). Would wake up to it. It also wasn't episodic, it was constant, took 5 trials of heart meds to find one that brought my heart rate under control. As for the pain, nothing has really worked. As I mentioned previously I have basically spent the last six months holding at the same dose trying to rule out any unidentified medical cause for my symptoms and also trying to stablize or find a med that helped with the pain. Not much has changed with the pain. I use to have tingling and numbness which has gone away during the past 6 months and I also had horribly burning skin. That has improved significantly but is still a daily problem. It seems I have exhausted all  specialists (in terms of second opinions) and there doesn't seem to be much in the way of treatment for the pain. Having felt like I have tried nearly everything, I felt I had to try to taper. I was hoping a micro taper would not make the pain worse but allow me to get off even if it took 3 years. But I didn't even make it three days with tiny cuts.

As for the neurontin, I had a bad reaction in the past. Also I already have issues with edema (lymphedema) because of lymph node removal which in turn puts me at risk for infections. I think you actually made me awar of this side effect. It might be too risky for me to even try it because of current edema issues.

[[my...]]

Wow, Elizabeth...

 

Yes, I do remember we exchanged posts about neurontin now.  And of course, I had no idea of the extent of the heart rate problem or that you had so thoroughly investigated it.  I'm sorry.  But thank you for explaining the situation.  It's really interesting, but devastating to live through I'm sure.

 

As an aside, the other evening I spoke at length with a young post doc fellow with whom my pdoc put  me in touch.  He, also, was having a difficult time tapering.  It was affecting his work, etc.  -  a sweet and very smart guy.  Anyhow, he said he'd spoken with a doctor at a local rehab facility who said that, like opiates in her current experience, within ten years, doctors will be loathe to prescribe benzodiazepines because of the legal liability - people like us bringing law suits for pain and suffering due to these over - and irresponsibly - prescribed drugs.

 

If only, for all of us, this was the case 5 or 10 years ago!

 

Hoping you can rest easy tonight.

Mana