Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[El...]]

SG in the last few posts you repeatedly mention the importance of taper rate. I really want to heed your advice. I crossed over from tablet form of Ativan to compounded rx. I have held at my same dose to make sure I was stable for the past 8 days. My current symptoms have not worsened. Other then feeling slightly more drowsy the first few days I haven't noticed any difference moving to the compound. Which is a relief. So my rate of cut will be .0025 per day. I am wondering how I will figure out if this rate is too fast. Do you think I should cut for 3-4 days and then hold to see how I feel or just keep cutting until I feel symptoms? Thank you!

 

It sounds like the switch went very well.  What is your benzo dose?  Your sig seems to say .5mg A plus 5mg V?  There really is no way to know where to begin until you try it so I usually recommend beginning at 7.5% per month of total dose.  This is a conservative place to jump in and will allow daily cutting for almost all.  Your plan to begin at .0025mg a day would result in .075mg after a month, which is 7.5% of your dose (.5mgA + 5mgV=10mgV) so it should be fine.  I would not worry about holding after 3-4 days unless you feel symptom increase.  Test it for a few weeks and adjust from there.

Thank you!

[[ga...]]

 

That is a scary visual, corkscrew receptors. But your reply, SG57 is beautiful, and inspirational. Best thing I've heard all day.

 

I've been off Klonopin five days and it's not been easy. But I couldn't have made it any other way than by MT. Thank you for guidance. Very grateful.

 

Bennie

 

Wow, 5 days off of K. I'm so happy for you. You are well on your way to complete healing!

 

Gard

[[Be...]]

 

That is a scary visual, corkscrew receptors. But your reply, SG57 is beautiful, and inspirational. Best thing I've heard all day.

 

I've been off Klonopin five days and it's not been easy. But I couldn't have made it any other way than by MT. Thank you for guidance. Very grateful.

 

Bennie

 

Wow, 5 days off of K. I'm so happy for you. You are well on your way to complete healing!

 

Gard

 

Hey Gard,

 

Thank you so much! Six days now! It's a little roller coaster ride. The way I describe it is feeling normal but simultaneously unwell.  I'm doing both better than expected, and surprised by new symptoms.

 

I will continue to watch your progress. You WILL be free! Healing is happening for you, and recovery awaits.

Bennie

[[an...]]

Bennie,

 

Congratulations on being finished!!!!  I am so happy for you.  This is wonderful news.

 

Anne

 

 

[Guest [Ma...]]

Bennie,

Well done!!  Now onto complete healing.

 

Marija

 

 

[Guest [Ma...]]

Update.

 

Tomorrow will be day 12 off of Xanax.

I think the worst of acute has passed.

I'm moving forward now with tapering the remainder of my 6 mg of V.

 

Onwards.

Marija.

 

 

[[Be...]]

Update.

 

Tomorrow will be day 12 off of Xanax.

I think the worst of acute has passed.

I'm moving forward now with tapering the remainder of my 6 mg of V.

 

Onwards.

Marija.

 

Marija,

 

Great to hear!

X is really something to get off of!

Best wishes for a smooth V taper.

 

Bennie

[[Mo...]]

Update.

 

Tomorrow will be day 12 off of Xanax.

I think the worst of acute has passed.

I'm moving forward now with tapering the remainder of my 6 mg of V.

 

Onwards.

Marija.

 

Well done 

 

Thinking of you..

[[pr...]]

I think there is definitely something else that happens when we are too short.  I know from my own experience that this is true for me.  There is no question in my mind about that anymore.  What I am experiencing now is not part of simple upregulation.  That would have been over and done with long ago.

 

I have trouble comprehending it too, but I think I get the gist...at least roughly.  Basically the neuron gets too excited due to too much and too long a benzo shortage and that sets off events that over time lead to glutamate LTPs being set up in the synapse.  This is the cause of long-term symptoms.  LTPs are constant and keep the neuron "permanently on."  Updosing with more benzo has no effect on them.  The only known way to get rid of them is to let them fade over time, like a memory.  Over a long time the LTPs gradually lessen and disappear and normal function returns.  In the meantime we are stuck with symptoms while waiting for this to happen.

 

 

that description makes a lot more sense to me, thank you!

 

do you agree that the neuron gets absorbed and the chloride ion channel gets all messed up? is it too much chloride or not enough?

 

From what I have read the benzo causes too much chloride.  The body does not like this so it responds by downregulating the system, bringing chloride levels back to normal.  The main adjustment seems to absorbing receptors...it gets rid of them.  When we stop taking benzo the neuron gets too excited and now does not have enough chloride to calm it.

 

I have no idea what the neuron does with the receptor or what happens to the ion channel, but I know it can be fixed.  From what I have read all these CNS receptor systems have the same basic components that can be adjusted up or down.  The body can do things like adding and deleting receptors.  It can also swap in more or less sensitive versions.  The ability to adjust and tune seems to be basic to all receptor systems.

 

 

thanks for such a great explanation SG!

 

i wonder if you could help me. i've been counting my days since the c/t and the last rescue dose and i think i messed up somewhere along the way. could you help me convert 44 months into days and 40 months into days? thank you so much!

[[no...]]

I think there is definitely something else that happens when we are too short.  I know from my own experience that this is true for me.  There is no question in my mind about that anymore.  What I am experiencing now is not part of simple upregulation.  That would have been over and done with long ago.

 

I have trouble comprehending it too, but I think I get the gist...at least roughly.  Basically the neuron gets too excited due to too much and too long a benzo shortage and that sets off events that over time lead to glutamate LTPs being set up in the synapse.  This is the cause of long-term symptoms.  LTPs are constant and keep the neuron "permanently on."  Updosing with more benzo has no effect on them.  The only known way to get rid of them is to let them fade over time, like a memory.  Over a long time the LTPs gradually lessen and disappear and normal function returns.  In the meantime we are stuck with symptoms while waiting for this to happen.

 

 

that description makes a lot more sense to me, thank you!

 

do you agree that the neuron gets absorbed and the chloride ion channel gets all messed up? is it too much chloride or not enough?

 

From what I have read the benzo causes too much chloride.  The body does not like this so it responds by downregulating the system, bringing chloride levels back to normal.  The main adjustment seems to absorbing receptors...it gets rid of them.  When we stop taking benzo the neuron gets too excited and now does not have enough chloride to calm it.

 

I have no idea what the neuron does with the receptor or what happens to the ion channel, but I know it can be fixed.  From what I have read all these CNS receptor systems have the same basic components that can be adjusted up or down.  The body can do things like adding and deleting receptors.  It can also swap in more or less sensitive versions.  The ability to adjust and tune seems to be basic to all receptor systems.

 

 

thanks for such a great explanation SG!

 

i wonder if you could help me. i've been counting my days since the c/t and the last rescue dose and i think i messed up somewhere along the way. could you help me convert 44 months into days and 40 months into days? thank you so much!

 

 

44 months =1,338.333 days.......... 40 months=1,216.667 days  Thank you on-line converter!!!  http://www.convertunits.com/from/days/to/month

 

 

Love Nova xxx  :smitten:

[Guest [Ma...]]

Thank you, Bennie & Moo!!

Wonderful not having to dose X 6 times a day. I feel less mentally glued to my taper, restoring some much needed normalcy.

 

Marija

[[ga...]]

Update.

 

Tomorrow will be day 12 off of Xanax.

I think the worst of acute has passed.

I'm moving forward now with tapering the remainder of my 6 mg of V.

 

Onwards.

Marija.

 

I'm so glad you are off the X. I'm looking forward to that day for myself! We can do this! 

 

Gard

[[Be...]]

Thank you, Bennie & Moo!!

Wonderful not having to dose X 6 times a day. I feel less mentally glued to my taper, restoring some much needed normalcy.

 

Marija

X days are OVER!! Not dosing 6 times day is mental weight lifted off for good.

Celebrate! And fork over some of that pie you got in your avatar!

Bennie

[[jr...]]

Good for you marija! Glad you are off! Xanax is a tough one to conquer!

[[ca...]]

Marija, great job and wishing you the best ~ CD

[Guest [Ma...]]

Gardner - Your day is coming soon, my friend. Keep inching forward and soon you will be off. Hope you are feeling better and getting more visits from the sand man. Hugs

 

Bennie - Would LOVE to share a slice with everyone and celebrate our victories. 🎉 Be it a completion or another MT day closer - let us celebrate! 

Hope you are having a low symptom day as your healing continues. 

 

Jr - yes, definitely a beast. Set your aim and stay your course. You will get there!

 

Can do - thank you!  How have you been?

 

Marija 🎁

[[Be...]]

Gardner - Your day is coming soon, my friend. Keep inching forward and soon you will be off. Hope you are feeling better and getting more visits from the sand man. Hugs

 

Bennie - Would LOVE to share a slice with everyone and celebrate our victories. 🎉 Be it a completion or another MT day closer - let us celebrate! 

Hope you are having a low symptom day as your healing continues.

 

Marija 🎁

 

Marija,

 

Was doing OK-ish up until the snarled traffic, the baking failure, the two pieces of crab sushi. Anxiety and rubber legs strike! It could be worse, a lot worse. Very grateful for every day I am not ingesting Klonopin.

 

Ha! And I said I wasn't going to do it, but I just bought a BIG tree.

 

Wishing you and everyone a peaceful night.

 

Bennie

[[ga...]]

Calling chemistry gurus! I found this on pubchem and am trying to figure out how it applies to me as I near my L taper. (Actually, I'm probably a month or two away, depending on how much further I decide to cross.)

 

http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/chlordiazepoxide#section=Odor

 

20 mg/ml in alcohol @ 25 deg C

McEvoy, G.K. (ed.). American Hospital Formulary Service-Drug Information 19 98. Bethesda, MD: American Society of Health-System Pharmacists, Inc. 1998 (Plus Supplements)., p. 1942

 

Chlordiazepoxide hydrochloride is unstable in water, 0.9% sodium chloride, and the commercially available diluent. ... The diluent is reportedly stable for at least 48 hours at a temperature not exceeding 25 deg C ... /Chlordiazepoxide hydrochloride/

McEvoy, G.K. (ed.). American Hospital Formulary Service-Drug Information 19 98. Bethesda, MD: American Society of Health-System Pharmacists, Inc. 1998 (Plus Supplements)., p. 1942

from HSDB

 

CHLORDIAZEPOXIDE DEGRADES IN AQUEOUS SOLUTIONS TO FORM BENZOPHENONE, PRIMARILY ... Abstract: PubMed

LEVINE B ET AL; J FORENSIC SCI 28 (1): 102-15 (1983)

 

 

Here's what I think it means. I can take one of my 5 mg capsules and dissolve it in a very small amount of alcohol, add water to equal 100ml and then figure my cuts. I will have to use the remove-and-pitch-out-what-I-don't-want-and-drink-the-rest method because I cannot store my solution. Correct?

 

Thanks!

 

Gard

[[Be...]]

Gard,

 

I couldn't find where it said "The diluent is reportedly stable for at least 48 hours at a temperature not exceeding 25 deg C". Is it on same page? If this is true, I would think you'd have at least 48 hours to use the diluted dose. You still might be pitching the excess until you have enough leftover for another dose.

 

This is a VERY interesting website, oriented toward toxicology. Sobering.

 

Bennie

[[ga...]]

Gard,

 

I couldn't find where it said "The diluent is reportedly stable for at least 48 hours at a temperature not exceeding 25 deg C". Is it on same page? If this is true, I would think you'd have at least 48 hours to use the diluted dose. You still might be pitching the excess until you have enough leftover for another dose.

 

This is a VERY interesting website, oriented toward toxicology. Sobering.

 

Bennie

 

Yes, scroll down to stability. It's not clears what exactly they mean by the diluent, if that includes all mentioned diluents or the "commercially available diluent" that is unnamed. 

[[my...]]

This is for builder and SG whenever you check in.....

 

So the MT didn't work so well for me the first time.....I have just re-read Ashton's manual, the beginning at least and then looked at the Klonopin/Diazepam table....

 

If I were to do a crossover, where would I be, since I am just north of .5 at my current dose of .6875 mg.?  As builder, you said a week or so ago, consistency is more important than accuracy and I have clearly been all over the map in terms of my pace....I may NOT cross over..in fact I am planning to cut .03125 again tomorrow and continue with C/H for now directly off K..@ 03125mg and then 5% every 10 days to 2 weeks on down.  If that is too hard, then I will either try MT again or a C/O for the balance of my taper.

 

That said....could you estimate the equivalency of K to V at this point? And also, how to manage it? From my current total of .6875? Or at my next dose level of .656? 

 

Many thanks, as always,

Mana

[[ca...]]

Gardner - Your day is coming soon, my friend. Keep inching forward and soon you will be off. Hope you are feeling better and getting more visits from the sand man. Hugs

 

Bennie - Would LOVE to share a slice with everyone and celebrate our victories. 🎉 Be it a completion or another MT day closer - let us celebrate! 

Hope you are having a low symptom day as your healing continues. 

 

Jr - yes, definitely a beast. Set your aim and stay your course. You will get there!

 

Can do - thank you!  How have you been?

 

Marija 🎁

Maija, doing ok here ya know the drill just day bye day i hope your doing ok, and thanks for asking ~CD

[[Ma...]]

Marija,

I am so beyond thrilled for you! Now we are both just on V. It has been much Kinder to me and I think it will to you. Yay to no more 6 dosing a day. I also believe you have your Dr appt in a month? You got this! You deserve a break. You have been through so much and stayed so strong. This makes me SO happy!!!! Please keep me updated on how you are doing and how your appt goes. I want to try and find someone who can interpret more of my genetic material. So much love to you!

:smitten:

 

Gardener,

I hope you are feeling better! You are always in my thoughts! The chemistry stuff seems confusing, but I am sure you will figure it out.

 

XO Maya 

 

 

[Guest [Ma...]]

Marija,

I am so beyond thrilled for you! Now we are both just on V. It has been much Kinder to me and I think it will to you. Yay to no more 6 dosing a day. I also believe you have your Dr appt in a month? You got this! You deserve a break. You have been through so much and stayed so strong. This makes me SO happy!!!! Please keep me updated on how you are doing and how your appt goes. I want to try and find someone who can interpret more of my genetic material. So much love to you!

:smitten:

 

Gardener,

I hope you are feeling better! You are always in my thoughts! The chemistry stuff seems confusing, but I am sure you will figure it out.

 

XO Maya 

 

Maya,

Thank you for the well wishes!!  I have finally stabilized on the V and am grateful to be experiencing far fewer symptoms. My days are better, sleep is still reasonable, and morning surges are almost gone. Dosing V 3 times a day is working for me well.

And, look at you!!  Into the 40's! 

Thrilled for you. This has been a long journey and you've found your stride!!

 

I will be in touch regarding the genetic testing (now that I'm back on my feet again). 

Hugs,

Marija

[[Ma...]]

Marija,

So thrilled you stabilized on V! That is amazing how much better you are doing. I am so happy, you deserve some relief! Also I know you are on a low dose. So not too much longer. I am dosing V 3x a day as well, so much better than dosing 6-7 times a day.

Thank you so much!!! Do you plan to start tapering soon? Keep me posted. Definitely stay in touch!

 

XO Maya