Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[...]]

SG, Where might I find a chart showing the curve and how receptor occupancy changes. It would give me a better understanding. Do you have a link that you could post? I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks, Rose B

 

Take a look at the graphs on pages 829-831 of this article...

 

http://ils.unc.edu/b...iew/tmp/352.pdf

 

They are for ADs, not benzos, but all psych drugs look like this - they all have this shape.  It shows how the percentage of receptors occupied by the drug changes with dose.  It is very steep at low dose and much flatter at high dose.  This means when we cut at high dose not as many receptors are exposed by the cut (so we can cut bigger), but as the dose gets lower more and more receptors get exposed, so to counter this effect we need to slow down.  Slowing down the taper is the natural result of these curves.

 

Rose, click on the link.  Eyeopening and explains a lot.  Those curves are for ADs, but a benzo will do the same thing.

[[bu...]]

SG, Where might I find a chart showing the curve and how receptor occupancy changes. It would give me a better understanding. Do you have a link that you could post? I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks, Rose B

 

Take a look at the graphs on pages 829-831 of this article...

 

http://ils.unc.edu/b...iew/tmp/352.pdf

 

They are for ADs, not benzos, but all psych drugs look like this - they all have this shape.  It shows how the percentage of receptors occupied by the drug changes with dose.  It is very steep at low dose and much flatter at high dose.  This means when we cut at high dose not as many receptors are exposed by the cut (so we can cut bigger), but as the dose gets lower more and more receptors get exposed, so to counter this effect we need to slow down.  Slowing down the taper is the natural result of these curves.

 

Rose, click on the link.  Eyeopening and explains a lot.  Those curves are for ADs, but a benzo will do the same thing.

  "404- PAGE NOT FOUND"

[[ga...]]

Bummer, SG, your link doesn't work. 

[[...]]

That's weird.  Try this one and click the link from SA.  There will be four choices.  Click the one after it says "The full paper is available here."

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6037-meyer-2004-serotonin-transporter-occupancy-of-five-selective-serotonin-reuptake-inhibitors-at-different-doses-an-11cdasb-positron-emission-tomography-study/

[[ga...]]

Is this it??

 

http://ils.unc.edu/bmh/neoref/this.dir.unneeded/schizophrenia/review/tmp/352.pdf

[[...]]

There you go.

[[ga...]]

There you go.

 

[[pr...]]

 

Yeah, you really need to watch and be aware of both the cut size and the percent cut.  If you were to see a curve of how the receptor occupancy changes based on dose size you would get a really good idea of why cut size needs to get smaller and smaller.  It's the kind of thing where - once you see it - you say, "of coarse cut size should be smaller!"

 

 

 

SG,

 

 

in reading "Anatomy of an Epidemic" by Robert Whitaker, he talks about how they did an experiment on mice and gave them benzos and psyche meds and how their receptor's turned into a corke screw shape. do you think that happens to our receptor's too?

[[...]]

 

Yeah, you really need to watch and be aware of both the cut size and the percent cut.  If you were to see a curve of how the receptor occupancy changes based on dose size you would get a really good idea of why cut size needs to get smaller and smaller.  It's the kind of thing where - once you see it - you say, "of coarse cut size should be smaller!"

 

 

 

SG,

 

 

in reading "Anatomy of an Epidemic" by Robert Whitaker, he talks about how they did an experiment on mice and gave them benzos and psyche meds and how their receptor's turned into a corke screw shape. do you think that happens to our receptor's too?

 

I have no idea what exactly happens, but whatever it is can be corrected by tapering properly.  Whatever happens, the body can reverse it.

[[Be...]]

 

Yeah, you really need to watch and be aware of both the cut size and the percent cut.  If you were to see a curve of how the receptor occupancy changes based on dose size you would get a really good idea of why cut size needs to get smaller and smaller.  It's the kind of thing where - once you see it - you say, "of coarse cut size should be smaller!"

 

 

 

SG,

 

 

in reading "Anatomy of an Epidemic" by Robert Whitaker, he talks about how they did an experiment on mice and gave them benzos and psyche meds and how their receptor's turned into a corke screw shape. do you think that happens to our receptor's too?

 

I have no idea what exactly happens, but whatever it is can be corrected by tapering properly.  Whatever happens, the body can reverse it.

 

That is a scary visual, corkscrew receptors. But your reply, SG57 is beautiful, and inspirational. Best thing I've heard all day.

 

I've been off Klonopin five days and it's not been easy. But I couldn't have made it any other way than by MT. Thank you for guidance. Very grateful.

 

Bennie

 

 

[[pr...]]

 

Yeah, you really need to watch and be aware of both the cut size and the percent cut.  If you were to see a curve of how the receptor occupancy changes based on dose size you would get a really good idea of why cut size needs to get smaller and smaller.  It's the kind of thing where - once you see it - you say, "of coarse cut size should be smaller!"

 

 

 

SG,

 

 

in reading "Anatomy of an Epidemic" by Robert Whitaker, he talks about how they did an experiment on mice and gave them benzos and psyche meds and how their receptor's turned into a corke screw shape. do you think that happens to our receptor's too?

 

I have no idea what exactly happens, but whatever it is can be corrected by tapering properly.  Whatever happens, the body can reverse it.

 

 

what do you think about the cold turkey folks? do you think it's a lost cause?

[[Mo...]]

 

Yeah, you really need to watch and be aware of both the cut size and the percent cut.  If you were to see a curve of how the receptor occupancy changes based on dose size you would get a really good idea of why cut size needs to get smaller and smaller.  It's the kind of thing where - once you see it - you say, "of coarse cut size should be smaller!"

 

 

 

SG,

 

 

in reading "Anatomy of an Epidemic" by Robert Whitaker, he talks about how they did an experiment on mice and gave them benzos and psyche meds and how their receptor's turned into a corke screw shape. do you think that happens to our receptor's too?

 

I have no idea what exactly happens, but whatever it is can be corrected by tapering properly.  Whatever happens, the body can reverse it.

 

That is a scary visual, corkscrew receptors. But your reply, SG57 is beautiful, and inspirational. Best thing I've heard all day.

 

I've been off Klonopin five days and it's not been easy. But I couldn't have made it any other way than by MT. Thank you for guidance. Very grateful.

 

Bennie

 

Ooooh! Bennie....

 

You're done !

 

Congratulations!!!

 

Wishing you much, much healing and all the best.

[[Be...]]

Thanks Moo! I hope you're doing OK or better. 

I see you've spruced up your ticker with boughs of holly!

🎄 🎅

[[...]]

I have no idea what exactly happens, but whatever it is can be corrected by tapering properly.  Whatever happens, the body can reverse it.

 

That is a scary visual, corkscrew receptors. But your reply, SG57 is beautiful, and inspirational. Best thing I've heard all day.

 

I've been off Klonopin five days and it's not been easy. But I couldn't have made it any other way than by MT. Thank you for guidance. Very grateful.

 

Bennie

 

Good job Bennie.  It's all improvement from here.

[[...]]

I have no idea what exactly happens, but whatever it is can be corrected by tapering properly.  Whatever happens, the body can reverse it.

 

 

what do you think about the cold turkey folks? do you think it's a lost cause?

 

I think everyone heals.  I do wonder if there is more than one type of damage though.  I've read through Perseverence's excellent work and GABA upregulation seems to be only one part of it...the easy part.  There is another part that happens when we are too short of benzo.  It is more severe and long term.

 

CT is the extreme of this, but I think it also happens to a lesser degree when we taper too quickly or cut too big, which almost everyone does.  Added time after tapering is needed to finish repairing this damage and it can take many months.  I think GABA upregulation is a fairly quick process compared to these long-term damage symptoms.

 

I think up and down regulation is routine for the CNS, but being overwhelmed with chemical excitement is not, and that is where the problem is.  We have to taper in a way that stays below this threshold (our bodies own healing rate) to stay within what the body considers normal upregulation, which it is used to doing.  Staying within this narrow range creates a shortage big enough to stimulate upregulation yet also keeps the neurons from getting overwhelmed.  I think most all of us have "damage" to varying degrees because we pushed the taper.  That's my opinion at any rate, for what it is worth.

[[Ho...]]

SG,

 

I was able to jump from K and have been off for a couple weeks now. Everything was going well. Until recently.

 

Two questions for you:

 

I have recently gotten a sinus infection and my doc prescribed antibiotics (amoxicillin). I looked online and saw adverse affects to those who are on an SSRI (I am on Celexa) and those with anxiety disorders. I am nervous to take them. Any thoughts?

 

Secondly, my toddler has also been very sick with walking pneumonia and has been up multiple times per night. And ends up sleeping in bed with me. The whole situation is very stressful and causing me bad anxiety. I am sleep deprived and stressed of course - and because I'm still recovering from K withdrawal, I am extremely sensitive to stress. To the point where I might reinstate to a low dose?! I would love your thoughts on this. I am just frustrated and annoyed that this is hapenning.

 

Thanks for your kind advice as always!

[[...]]

SG,

 

I was able to jump from K and have been off for a couple weeks now. Everything was going well. Until recently.

 

Two questions for you:

 

I have recently gotten a sinus infection and my doc prescribed antibiotics (amoxicillin). I looked online and saw adverse affects to those who are on an SSRI (I am on Celexa) and those with anxiety disorders. I am nervous to take them. Any thoughts?

 

Secondly, my toddler has also been very sick with walking pneumonia and has been up multiple times per night. And ends up sleeping in bed with me. The whole situation is very stressful and causing me bad anxiety. I am sleep deprived and stressed of course - and because I'm still recovering from K withdrawal, I am extremely sensitive to stress. To the point where I might reinstate to a low dose?! I would love your thoughts on this. I am just frustrated and annoyed that this is hapenning.

 

Thanks for your kind advice as always!

 

I am not aware of any benzo issues with older antibiotics like amoxicillin and you have an infection so you need to do something.  You could look into natural antibiotics.  I don't recall what natural substances do this, but I know they exist.  Maybe others will know.  Or you could search mercola.com or other natural health websites.

 

I don't know what to say about reinstatement.  It has been two weeks so that makes it dicey as reinstatement does not always work.  If you feel well enough I would be inclined to stick with it.  You are off and time will eventually resolve it.  If it is really getting rough it can be a hard decision as there is no guarantee it will help.

[[Kg...]]

Hopeful Mom: I know you asked  SG for his advice but I couldn't help responding as one who did updose and ended up worse off than I did before. If I had to do it over again I would stay away from the benzo at all costs and just get through this.  Your symptoms are probably related to your illness and of course being up with your child - all issues that you will have to face multiple times after you are off.  I know it is hard but you worked so hard to be off - why go backwards and as SG said there is no guarantee it will work unless of course  you  want to reinstate and then take a therapeutic dose and that I would imagine you don't wish to do.  Just hang in there I would start the antibiotic and make sure you take a probiotic with it or eat yogurt so you keep the good bacteria.  As your for baby -hope s/he feels better soon and lets  Mom sleep and perhaps over the weekend a family member can let you sleep a full night.

[[pr...]]

I have no idea what exactly happens, but whatever it is can be corrected by tapering properly.  Whatever happens, the body can reverse it.

 

 

what do you think about the cold turkey folks? do you think it's a lost cause?

 

I think everyone heals.  I do wonder if there is more than one type of damage though. I've read through Perseverence's excellent work and GABA upregulation seems to be only one part of it...the easy part.  There is another part that happens when we are too short of benzo.  It is more severe and long term.

 

CT is the extreme of this, but I think it also happens to a lesser degree when we taper too quickly or cut too big, which almost everyone does.  Added time after tapering is needed to finish repairing this damage and it can take many months.  I think GABA upregulation is a fairly quick process compared to these long-term damage symptoms.

 

I think up and down regulation is routine for the CNS, but being overwhelmed with chemical excitement is not, and that is where the problem is.  We have to taper in a way that stays below this threshold (our bodies own healing rate) to stay within what the body considers normal upregulation, which it is used to doing.  Staying within this narrow range creates a shortage big enough to stimulate upregulation yet also keeps the neurons from getting overwhelmed.  I think most all of us have "damage" to varying degrees because we pushed the taper.  That's my opinion at any rate, for what it is worth.

 

 

SG,

 

i have read Perseverance's thread on the LTP many times but still have troubles comprehending it. do you think the LTP has a lot to do with the benzo symptoms staying so severe for so long -- for some of us? and are you able to explain the LTP in even more laymen's terms than Persy spelled it out?

 

thanks, Pretty

[[...]]

I think everyone heals.  I do wonder if there is more than one type of damage though. I've read through Perseverence's excellent work and GABA upregulation seems to be only one part of it...the easy part.  There is another part that happens when we are too short of benzo.  It is more severe and long term.

 

CT is the extreme of this, but I think it also happens to a lesser degree when we taper too quickly or cut too big, which almost everyone does.  Added time after tapering is needed to finish repairing this damage and it can take many months.  I think GABA upregulation is a fairly quick process compared to these long-term damage symptoms.

 

I think up and down regulation is routine for the CNS, but being overwhelmed with chemical excitement is not, and that is where the problem is.  We have to taper in a way that stays below this threshold (our bodies own healing rate) to stay within what the body considers normal upregulation, which it is used to doing.  Staying within this narrow range creates a shortage big enough to stimulate upregulation yet also keeps the neurons from getting overwhelmed.  I think most all of us have "damage" to varying degrees because we pushed the taper.  That's my opinion at any rate, for what it is worth.

 

 

SG,

 

i have read Perseverance's thread on the LTP many times but still have troubles comprehending it. do you think the LTP has a lot to do with the benzo symptoms staying so severe for so long -- for some of us? and are you able to explain the LTP in even more laymen's terms than Persy spelled it out?

 

thanks, Pretty

 

I think there is definitely something else that happens when we are too short.  I know from my own experience that this is true for me.  There is no question in my mind about that anymore.  What I am experiencing now is not part of simple upregulation.  That would have been over and done with long ago.

 

I have trouble comprehending it too, but I think I get the gist...at least roughly.  Basically the neuron gets too excited due to too much and too long a benzo shortage and that sets off events that over time lead to glutamate LTPs being set up in the synapse.  This is the cause of long-term symptoms.  LTPs are constant and keep the neuron "permanently on."  Updosing with more benzo has no effect on them.  The only known way to get rid of them is to let them fade over time, like a memory.  Over a long time the LTPs gradually lessen and disappear and normal function returns.  In the meantime we are stuck with symptoms while waiting for this to happen.

[[pr...]]

I think everyone heals.  I do wonder if there is more than one type of damage though. I've read through Perseverence's excellent work and GABA upregulation seems to be only one part of it...the easy part.  There is another part that happens when we are too short of benzo.  It is more severe and long term.

 

CT is the extreme of this, but I think it also happens to a lesser degree when we taper too quickly or cut too big, which almost everyone does.  Added time after tapering is needed to finish repairing this damage and it can take many months.  I think GABA upregulation is a fairly quick process compared to these long-term damage symptoms.

 

I think up and down regulation is routine for the CNS, but being overwhelmed with chemical excitement is not, and that is where the problem is.  We have to taper in a way that stays below this threshold (our bodies own healing rate) to stay within what the body considers normal upregulation, which it is used to doing.  Staying within this narrow range creates a shortage big enough to stimulate upregulation yet also keeps the neurons from getting overwhelmed.  I think most all of us have "damage" to varying degrees because we pushed the taper.  That's my opinion at any rate, for what it is worth.

 

 

SG,

 

i have read Perseverance's thread on the LTP many times but still have troubles comprehending it. do you think the LTP has a lot to do with the benzo symptoms staying so severe for so long -- for some of us? and are you able to explain the LTP in even more laymen's terms than Persy spelled it out?

 

thanks, Pretty

 

I think there is definitely something else that happens when we are too short.  I know from my own experience that this is true for me.  There is no question in my mind about that anymore.  What I am experiencing now is not part of simple upregulation.  That would have been over and done with long ago.

 

I have trouble comprehending it too, but I think I get the gist...at least roughly.  Basically the neuron gets too excited due to too much and too long a benzo shortage and that sets off events that over time lead to glutamate LTPs being set up in the synapse.  This is the cause of long-term symptoms.  LTPs are constant and keep the neuron "permanently on."  Updosing with more benzo has no effect on them.  The only known way to get rid of them is to let them fade over time, like a memory.  Over a long time the LTPs gradually lessen and disappear and normal function returns.  In the meantime we are stuck with symptoms while waiting for this to happen.

 

 

that description makes a lot more sense to me, thank you!

 

do you agree that the neuron gets absorbed and the chloride ion channel gets all messed up? is it too much chloride or not enough?

[[Hi...]]

I meant  a rapid taper  from my updose to back where i was at 6mg. 

I didnt mean  to slander anyone i know  everyone  is suffering

what im saying  is i dont know what to  taper off first and ive tried close to a daily  microtaper and the problem is  is i am in so much agony  and my brain  so traumatized that i cant  manage  a microtaper idk how to set it up i have  a scale but its not perfectly  acurate im saying  i cant  tolerate  the level of  pain and mental agony  im in long enough to follow  through with a taper. And i dont have any support  or people to help me through it.  The mental  akathisia  is sobad and it gets worse and worse the more i taper it does not level out. So how can i go tthrough  a microtaper  taking  several years when i dont have the support and i cant  take care of myself. 

 

It will take that long because of  how high of a dose im on and the meds are making me  very  sick and destroying my mind and body  so the longer i stay on them the worse im getting  and my liver cant take much more.

 

 

Forget the liver im sinking further and further into my madness  and agony and there is no relief it gets to the point  very quickly everytime i taper that i need to updose  because i cannot handle the mental  trauma every  wave sends a new level of  ptsd every  wave is comparable to peoples  cold turkey  so im stuck.

 

How do i taper if i cant handle the symptoms and i cant  get stable and i have  no support  to take care of me....

 

I am cutting  the ativan  now but that is only to help me wake back up because  i have  been completely  comatosed which is scary  and worsens my depression but this is no better its more painful feelings  like i need to peel my skin off and run down the street  if youve never had mental akathisia  it is not something that can be coped with there are no coping skills for mental  akathisia  because  nothing  matters except  life and death no distraction.

 

I cant  taper below  6mg and micro taper  i get lost because  idk what is getting worse  because  my waves are so horrendous  nothing  levels  out a microtaper off of my dose will take  5 years because  my pills wigh .300 i take a total of 1.250 by weight so if i taper .001 a day which is a micro taper then thats like 5 years right? The other  meds are causing problems  also and i dont want to be on methadone  and gabapentin  for 5 more years i cant handle the symptoms  im having  right now for another year so please help me understand  all this how do i do this what do i do? I know you  cant answer that im sorry im  just saying symptoms  dont level out  after cuts im getting worse and worsejust hoholding  or tapering but tapering  is so unbearable  even  at micro levels. 

 

I need a plan but i cant figure out what that plan is. My girlfriend  who is my only support  is choosing  to stick around uuntil  we can find a treatment facility that  will be able to detox me and possibly take care of me afterwards  but they dont understand about the  kindling  ive been  through and that im in absolute torment  already.

 

But my loving  amazing  gf cant take care of me at this level  for that many years she needs to take care of herself also  and after i will be on my own. If i go to detox  and treatment  at least there will be other people around. But as far as microtapering i could understand  if i was stable ive tried  everything  there is to stabilize and  all attempts  make it worse. I cant heal till im off the meds.

 

Can you explain the  microtaper further?  I might not even have a doctor  to prescribe  my meds for much longer so in that case i would have to do detox. Although  im terrified  of what a detox will  do in my condition

 

If i was to start a microtaper how would i go about it

 

Im on 7.5mg ativan  a day i take 2.5mg 3x a day. The total weight  of pill is 1.075 g i believe so how long would that take i know  most people who are having a  fairly rough time it takes abot a year per mg ive noticed. So how would i go about this i have a pretty  good scale but i only have probably  another  couple of months of care at the most i cant burden everyone with my misery and im so bad i cant maneage to be alone most the time im lost in my symptoms and  torment  feel  so guilty and scared angry and sick and today is an ok day tolerable.

And im trying to get  liver treatment  for really bad hep c also.

 

I need  some guidance t

 

 

Edit: removed graphic text

[[...]]

I think there is definitely something else that happens when we are too short.  I know from my own experience that this is true for me.  There is no question in my mind about that anymore.  What I am experiencing now is not part of simple upregulation.  That would have been over and done with long ago.

 

I have trouble comprehending it too, but I think I get the gist...at least roughly.  Basically the neuron gets too excited due to too much and too long a benzo shortage and that sets off events that over time lead to glutamate LTPs being set up in the synapse.  This is the cause of long-term symptoms.  LTPs are constant and keep the neuron "permanently on."  Updosing with more benzo has no effect on them.  The only known way to get rid of them is to let them fade over time, like a memory.  Over a long time the LTPs gradually lessen and disappear and normal function returns.  In the meantime we are stuck with symptoms while waiting for this to happen.

 

 

that description makes a lot more sense to me, thank you!

 

do you agree that the neuron gets absorbed and the chloride ion channel gets all messed up? is it too much chloride or not enough?

 

From what I have read the benzo causes too much chloride.  The body does not like this so it responds by downregulating the system, bringing chloride levels back to normal.  The main adjustment seems to absorbing receptors...it gets rid of them.  When we stop taking benzo the neuron gets too excited and now does not have enough chloride to calm it.

 

I have no idea what the neuron does with the receptor or what happens to the ion channel, but I know it can be fixed.  From what I have read all these CNS receptor systems have the same basic components that can be adjusted up or down.  The body can do things like adding and deleting receptors.  It can also swap in more or less sensitive versions.  The ability to adjust and tune seems to be basic to all receptor systems.

[[El...]]

SG in the last few posts you repeatedly mention the importance of taper rate. I really want to heed your advice. I crossed over from tablet form of Ativan to compounded rx. I have held at my same dose to make sure I was stable for the past 8 days. My current symptoms have not worsened. Other then feeling slightly more drowsy the first few days I haven't noticed any difference moving to the compound. Which is a relief. So my rate of cut will be .0025 per day. I am wondering how I will figure out if this rate is too fast. Do you think I should cut for 3-4 days and then hold to see how I feel or just keep cutting until I feel symptoms? Thank you!

[[...]]

SG in the last few posts you repeatedly mention the importance of taper rate. I really want to heed your advice. I crossed over from tablet form of Ativan to compounded rx. I have held at my same dose to make sure I was stable for the past 8 days. My current symptoms have not worsened. Other then feeling slightly more drowsy the first few days I haven't noticed any difference moving to the compound. Which is a relief. So my rate of cut will be .0025 per day. I am wondering how I will figure out if this rate is too fast. Do you think I should cut for 3-4 days and then hold to see how I feel or just keep cutting until I feel symptoms? Thank you!

 

It sounds like the switch went very well.  What is your benzo dose?  Your sig seems to say .5mg A plus 5mg V?  There really is no way to know where to begin until you try it so I usually recommend beginning at 7.5% per month of total dose.  This is a conservative place to jump in and will allow daily cutting for almost all.  Your plan to begin at .0025mg a day would result in .075mg after a month, which is 7.5% of your dose (.5mgA + 5mgV=10mgV) so it should be fine.  I would not worry about holding after 3-4 days unless you feel symptom increase.  Test it for a few weeks and adjust from there.