Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[El...]]

No worries mana. Thankful for everyone's thoughts and input. Never know what might help. For example, So glad you mentioned the edema with neurontitn. That could have been a big problem for me so I def have to look into that. Was not aware that was a side effect.

[[an...]]

Elizabeth,

 

If your compounded liquid has propylene glycol as a solvent, you will be able to dilute it with water. This will allow you to make smaller cuts when needed and will make it easier to measure your doses.

 

Anne

 

No. Unfortunately it does not. Its made in almond oil with just A and silica. Wondering if I should ask dr for a different rx to increase ML. Have tried drawing it up (not taking it yet) and getting huge air bubbles, working with such a tiny amount is going to be so much harder then I realized.

 

I know bubbles are a worry, but you really can ignore the big one at the top (and actually you should to get an accurate dose).  As long as the tip of the syringe remains submersed in the liquid while you are drawing it up with the plunger you will get exactly the right dose.  This is a basic principle of physics called "displacement."  The amount the plunger moves will be replaced with exactly that amount of liquid even if there is a bubble at the top.  The extra liquid is in the syringe tip and is equal to the bubble amount.  Tiny bubbles away from the top are not the same thing and came in as part of the liquid.  Hopefully there won't be many of these and they can be ignored.

 

For small bubbles, use your index finger to tap the syringe several times. You can draw up more medication if needed.

 

Anne

[[El...]]

Ok Anne and SG. Sorry but now I'm even more confused about those darn bubbles..... SG you referred to "displacemen"t and that a large bubble i see at the bottom is ok. But Anne says I can tap to remove little bubbles? Thanks for your patience!

[[ga...]]

I always get rid of any bubbles I can, especially the big ones. It helps if you only add a small part of your dose, then pull back the syringe to leave a big gap at the top so when you tap hard there is room for the bubbles to rise and pop. Then, with the syringe pointing up, carefully push until the oil goes all the way to the top of the tip and even protrudes a bit. Then stick the syringe in the oil and draw up your dose. There should be no giant bubble. If you look on youtube, you can find demos of how to draw up medicine into a syringe and make sure it's measured properly.

 

That said, I use water dilution. Not sure how this would work with oil.

 

Teeny bitty bubbles tend to cling and not rise no matter how much I tap or bang the syringe on the edge of the countertop. That's why a very dilute solution is good. Tiny bubbles won't make any difference.

 

By the way, the amount left in the narrow tip of the syringe past the zero point is not counted as part of the dose. So, the big bubble at the bottom, if it's the last thing out, should end up in the tip of the syringe, forcing what is in the tip out. That would be displacement. The air bubble displaced the oil in the tip that would normally have stayed in the tip. They would be equal in size and so should sub for each other. I prefer to get the big air bubble out first because I am paranoid.

 

Gard

[[...]]

Ok Anne and SG. Sorry but now I'm even more confused about those darn bubbles..... SG you referred to "displacemen"t and that a large bubble i see at the bottom is ok. But Anne says I can tap to remove little bubbles? Thanks for your patience!

 

If there is air in the tip of the syringe it will be the first thing drawn into the barrel when you begin to pull the plunger.  That is where the big bubble comes from.  But you can ignore it.  The amount the syringe moves is the amount of liquid you draw in even if there is a big bubble.  When you push it back out the bubble will go back into the tip.  Gard did a better job describing it.  As Builder reinforces so often, being consistent is much more important, i.e., whatever you do always do it the same way and you will be fine.

[[ga...]]

Ok Anne and SG. Sorry but now I'm even more confused about those darn bubbles..... SG you referred to "displacemen"t and that a large bubble i see at the bottom is ok. But Anne says I can tap to remove little bubbles? Thanks for your patience!

 

If there is air in the tip of the syringe it will be the first thing drawn into the barrel when you begin to pull the plunger.  That is where the big bubble comes from.  But you can ignore it.  The amount the syringe moves is the amount of liquid you draw in even if there is a big bubble.  When you push it back out the bubble will go back into the tip.  Gard did a better job describing it.  As Builder reinforces so often, being consistent is much more important, i.e., whatever you do always do it the same way and you will be fine.

 

:thumbsup:

 

I think this even applies to having my son always dilute and measure my meds rather than letting him alternate with my daughter!

[[my...]]

You know.....this is a great thread b/c mostly we keep to essentials...but I want to say that, whenever we can help another BB with their taper, it is so gratifying!  I am WAY to sensitive to criticism these days, afraid to be wrong, you know?  Conversely, when anyone says something nice, affirming any contribution we have tried to make, it brightens my day!!!  So, thanks Elizabeth.  And thank you all....this is a long, difficult road and I'm glad I have fellow travelers here on this forum.  Just sayin'....   

[[ga...]]

You know.....this is a great thread b/c mostly we keep to essentials...but I want to say that, whenever we can help another BB with their taper, it is so gratifying!  I am WAY to sensitive to criticism these days, afraid to be wrong, you know?  Conversely, when anyone says something nice, affirming any contribution we have tried to make, it brightens my day!!!  So, thanks Elizabeth.  And thank you all....this is a long, difficult road and I'm glad I have fellow travelers here on this forum.  Just sayin'....   

 

Oh, I love you for saying we mostly keep to essentials! 

 

Maybe I'm not as off-on-tangent as I think I usually am! 

[[bu...]]

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks SG. Will have to just take your word for it and try not to worry. the displacement you explained isn't making sense to me. Sometimes I see a large bubble equiv to .05ml at the bottom of the syringe, not seeing a bubble at the top. Sometimes I see little bubbles. And on a rare occasion, I haven't seen a bubble. I've practiced on drawing up but haven't started yet. Been a mess since being on an antibiotic and waiting for things to settle. Seems like it's a lot of inconsistency though with different bubbles I'm seeing.

 

"Displacement" simply means that when you create an"empty" space by pulling back the plunger, something will "displace" that empty space.  If the tip  is open to atmosphere, then the space will be filled with air.  If the tip is submerged in liquid, then the space will be filled with the liquid.  The amount of space created (by pulling back the plunger) will be the EXACT amount of liquid that fills it.

[[El...]]

thank you Builder, Gardner, and SG. I understand it soooo much better now! Don't feel nearly so dense! 

And mana, again I am SO appreciative of any and all advice. Like we all do, I just have to figure out what applies to me and what dosent. Each individual is so different, and thus their circumstances are so different. So it's our own responsibility to figure out what applies to each of us. I'm glad for any and all information. And again, I can't tell you how glad I am that you mentioned the edma. I already have to wear a compression sleeve on my arm to contain the swelling. When I was given iv fluids in the hospital it made the edema worse bc my lymph system is so messed up from surgery. Not to mention the awful infection I just had in that arm which landed me in the hospital. Seriously do not need to be on a med that has a known side effect of causing swelling in those with functioning lymph systems! As we all know, Drs are terrible with their understanding of drug side effects. Chronic swelling further damages the lymph system and man, I could have unknowingly caused swelling to my arm from gabapentin and have thought the swelling was just part of the lymphedema and not the drug. Seriously so grateful to you, and to everyone. I've got enough messes I'm trying to clean up here don't need another! 

[[ga...]]

Pharmacists! I always ask my pharmacist about meds and side effects. Find a good one and stick with him!

[[my...]]

OK guys, here I go...I want to try a MT beginning tomorrow.  I'm "scheduled" to cut another .03125 but late last night the light bulb switched on.  I was looking over several BB's signatures, particularly ones who have completed their tapers successfully, and Bennie's sig, who is stepping off this week some time. Almost all of them decreased their doses in a consistent manner and finished in a very reasonable length of time.  I realized that a MT doesn't mean I will slow down...quite the opposite.  I think it will keep me on track.  My sig is all over the place b// I held for various family and travel reasons.  When I count up my long holds, they equal over five months!  No wonder I'm still tapering after more than a year.  But the past is history and I did the best I could, not really understanding a MT and not being able to cut while attending to family or trying to enjoy travel with my husband.  The calendar, however, is cleared and the taper is my highest priority now.  That said, the only thing I have to decide is how much to cut on a daily basis. 

 

Calling SG!!  let's say I cut .001 g per day...is that too conservative?  What about .002 or .003?  I know we cannot predict end dates, but for a lot of reasons, I would like to be done, stepping off gently, by the end of July - or earlier if possible.  At the total dose I am at right now, what would be a reasonable MT rate?  If it is too much as I get lower, then I can always slow it down.

Since I already weigh my pills daily, why not just switch to a MT? 

 

Will wait to hear from the pros.... 

 

Oh, BTW....I have been considering a big remodel house project..my pdoc thinks it would be a great distraction.  I am already anxious about it.  My husband thinks I'm crazy to consider it until done with the taper and to think it would be a distraction rather than a stressor is unrealistic.  Although my shrink is kind and compassionate, she kind of goes with the flow and whatever my inclinations are at the moment, she encourages.  Sigh....and she is expensive!  Well, she is happy to write my scripts even if I only see her every once in a while.

 

That was a kind of side bar and something I'll deal with.  In the mean time I can't wait to hear from SG - others as well, if you have opinions...always interested to hear what BBs have to say.  Especially, those who have completed or are close to completing your tapers.  You know who you are!!  Clona, Bennie?

Hope your weeks go well and that Monday is a good beginning. 

 

Thanks,

 

Mana

[[my...]]

SG,

I just found the message from you that equates my current cut of  .03125 every ten days (which I have not really done as it’s changed each time) to a daily gram cut of .001 g. I had thought that was the most conservative MT rate.  Unless I hear, I will taper that tomorrow but wonder if I could go with .002g daily?  Especially at my current total dose.

 

Thanks again. 

[[my...]]

Sorry!!  One last thing....since I have been doing C/H....my current gram doses are the following:  .086 plus .075 plus .075. I will want to even Them out so I can rotate doses.  I could, perhaps, do the whole cut of .03125 tomorrow which would have each dose around .075 and begin the MT after ten days at that amount....OR I could begin tomorrow as planned and taper off the a.m. Dose until it reaches ..075 and then begin the rotation.  My inclination is to do the latter as I am curious to see how the MT method works with my CNS.

 

Thoughts?  Again, thanks.

Mana

[[...]]

OK guys, here I go...I want to try a MT beginning tomorrow.  I'm "scheduled" to cut another .03125 but late last night the light bulb switched on.  I was looking over several BB's signatures, particularly ones who have completed their tapers successfully, and Bennie's sig, who is stepping off this week some time. Almost all of them decreased their doses in a consistent manner and finished in a very reasonable length of time.  I realized that a MT doesn't mean I will slow down...quite the opposite.  I think it will keep me on track.  My sig is all over the place b// I held for various family and travel reasons.  When I count up my long holds, they equal over five months!  No wonder I'm still tapering after more than a year.  But the past is history and I did the best I could, not really understanding a MT and not being able to cut while attending to family or trying to enjoy travel with my husband.  The calendar, however, is cleared and the taper is my highest priority now.  That said, the only thing I have to decide is how much to cut on a daily basis. 

 

Calling SG!!  let's say I cut .001 g per day...is that too conservative?  What about .002 or .003?  I know we cannot predict end dates, but for a lot of reasons, I would like to be done, stepping off gently, by the end of July - or earlier if possible.  At the total dose I am at right now, what would be a reasonable MT rate?  If it is too much as I get lower, then I can always slow it down.

Since I already weigh my pills daily, why not just switch to a MT? 

 

Will wait to hear from the pros.... 

 

Oh, BTW....I have been considering a big remodel house project..my pdoc thinks it would be a great distraction.  I am already anxious about it.  My husband thinks I'm crazy to consider it until done with the taper and to think it would be a distraction rather than a stressor is unrealistic.  Although my shrink is kind and compassionate, she kind of goes with the flow and whatever my inclinations are at the moment, she encourages.  Sigh....and she is expensive!  Well, she is happy to write my scripts even if I only see her every once in a while.

 

That was a kind of side bar and something I'll deal with.  In the mean time I can't wait to hear from SG - others as well, if you have opinions...always interested to hear what BBs have to say.  Especially, those who have completed or are close to completing your tapers.  You know who you are!!  Clona, Bennie?

Hope your weeks go well and that Monday is a good beginning. 

 

Thanks,

 

Mana

 

Looking at your last four cuts you have been reducing .0031mg per day (if it had been a daily cut).  If you have .5mg pills a .001g cut is ~.003mg.  However, that might be a bit much to cut daily for you now since your dose is now lower.  I'd be inclined to begin with a .002mg daily reduction and see how that pans out, then move on from there.  Since this cut is smaller than the smallest cut you can make with the .5mg pill and scale you can simulate it by cutting in a cut-two, hold-one pattern, c/c/h.  This way, over three days you will cut .006mg which gives the daily average of .002mg we are looking for.  I agree with you: taper the high dose down even with the others first, then rotate the cut through your doses so they stay close to even.  This will be 8.7% after the first month, which most consider conservative.

[[my...]]

Thanks, SG.  But my last four cuts were longer holds b/c of travel or whatever, not b/c I couldn't do more.  We had figured that if I cut every 10 days, I would be cutting 13% a month and would like to try and shoot for that.  I had hoped a MT would keep things going, not slow them down.  So I would like to approximate the .03125 every ten days with an equivalent MT.  Shouldn't we at least try?? The 8.6% will never get me finished by summer, will it?

[[my...]]

P.S.

I know the aim is to feel well as we taper but Clona, for example, didn't feel well every minute of her taper, not at all, and she still managed to get through in a relatively short time (compared to me at least) with few if any post taper effects.  Yes, we are all different but even though I feel sort of OK most of the time, the taper has put a lot of life on hold as I fear each new cut and now am putting off both travel and house projects until done.  At my age - and especially at my husband's age - it would be good to get it done.

[[...]]

Thanks, SG.  But my last four cuts were longer holds b/c of travel or whatever, not b/c I couldn't do more.  We had figured that if I cut every 10 days, I would be cutting 13% a month and would like to try and shoot for that.  I had hoped a MT would keep things going, not slow them down.  So I would like to approximate the .03125 every ten days with an equivalent MT.  Shouldn't we at least try?? The 8.6% will never get me finished by summer, will it?

 

P.S.

I know the aim is to feel well as we taper but Clona, for example, didn't feel well every minute of her taper, not at all, and she still managed to get through in a relatively short time (compared to me at least) with few if any post taper effects.  Yes, we are all different but even though I feel sort of OK most of the time, the taper has put a lot of life on hold as I fear each new cut and now am putting off both travel and house projects until done.  At my age - and especially at my husband's age - it would be good to get it done.

 

I got that number from your sig.  If you can do more, do more.  It is up to you.  .001g a day would be 13% a month.  I don't recall the details of what we talked about before.  I think it is smart to begin low and slow and work up to higher rates rather than jumping in high.  You may be able to get even higher - many get up around 20% and some even higher.  But I'll never advise anyone to begin there.

 

It's not good to be so focused on an end date.  And it is a mirage anyway.  Getting "done" does not mean you save time feeling well.  If you push to end it the healing just continues longer on the other side.  In fact, I think pushing adds more time.

[[Kg...]]

My Mana:  I switched to a micro taper just about where you are now. I agree with SG to start slow and than see how you do to build up speed.  What I did: I started out cutting .001 every day but I would not recommend that - I think 10 cuts in 2 weeks is fine but I would spread out your holds within the 14 days.  I use the schedule that Bets (benzogirl) gave to me. This seems to work for me even at the low dose I am on.  I have  had to slow it down sometimes depending on how I feel and what I need to do.  I just came off a 2 week hold so please throw away your calendar, the point is to feel okay and functional on your way off and to let your body heal as you drop.  The nice thing about the micro taper is you can hold when you are getting in the weeds. I know Bennie went to every other day at some point in time and also put in holds. 

 

Bets schedule to taper Klonopin 10 cuts in 14 days.

 

Day 1. Hold from the last drop of the last 14-day cut.

day 2, cut

day 3, cut

day 4, cut

day 5, hold

day 6, cut

day 7, cut

day 8, cut

day 9, cut

day 10, hold

day 11, cut

day12, cut

day 13, hold

day 14, cut

 

Day 1 hold again

 

Re: Your renovation project - as someone who sold a house, packed up an entire house, moved over 1000 miles and drove two cars the 1000 miles+, and then had to move to a rental for a year while my current house was being built and then moved again, into the my new home, after much work was completed,  I can say that it can be done while you are tapering.  A distraction - not so much because it drove me nuts to have people working all the time but I was able to let them in my 'new house'  and then leave and go back to my rental.  I don't know how I would have done if workmen were in my home all day- with the noise and the dust etc etc.  I think it depends on how long the project will take, then add on a few weeks, and think about having workmen around all day.  I would also ask Moya as I know she had some work done on her home and was very happy to see them leave.  Anything is possible - but it is up to how you feel. 

 

[[my...]]

SG and Kgirl,

Thank you  ....yes, I know, SG, I am focused on an end date which, of course has been pushed further and further out due to holds I mentioned.  Hmm....start slow and ramp up if possible?  That's interesting as I had thought the other way around.

 

So, OK, SG..I will do as you say...and Kgirl...does what SG suggested parallel your method at all?  The C/C/H is, to me, easier to remember than cutting based on the day of the taper.  I'm bound to get that one screwed up!  But then I never thought I would be able to understand a MT, period and now it seems simple. 

 

As far as the house project, I think, like our tapers, everyone is different.  Our house is really fine...it's just that there are things I'd like to do at some point, but they are not necessary improvements - totally discretionary - so I think they can wait.  We wouldn't have to move out for long according to our contractor - it would certainly be a disruption.  Since we are home more b/c we are retired - even with my husband out playing golf and tennis - I think it would be a lot for me to handle when I could easily put it off for a year.  But thanks again for your response.  I think it helped as the fact of having people around all day long is, beside the money!, a huge drawback for me.

 

So, back to the taper.  Today is day 10 of my last cut.  I plan to do something tomorrow.  How about the SG plan of .001, .001, hold?  Right, SG? Am I good to go?

 

 

[[Kg...]]

My Mana do whatever is easier for you in regards to the cuts and holds.  Since I pre cut my pills for 2 weeks I printed out Bets schedule and cut the pills accordingly.  But C/C/H sounds fine to me as well - again remember do the schedule that works for you. If you need to go slower - fine, if this one works - great, if you have no s/x and can add in some more cuts - again fine but I wouldn't start that way.  I would start slow and only if you believe that you can go faster would I do that.  I could not do .002 cuts but Clona was fine doing them, so again remember even on a micro taper it is up to how you feel and no one else.  Just remember to listen to your own body- if you start to feel in the swamp- slow it down, if not happy cutting.

 

We are both retired also - I toy with going back to work on a regular basis, or volunteering but each time I decide I can do this the s/x of tapering reminds me that for now it is best to make no commitments and to live day to day. 

 

By the way SG did my initial micro taper schedule for me too as well as all the math for me and  he helped me  again when I hit a brick wall on my taper.  Thank you SG!!!!.

[[Be...]]

SG and Kgirl,

Thank you  ....yes, I know, SG, I am focused on an end date which, of course has been pushed further and further out due to holds I mentioned.  Hmm....start slow and ramp up if possible?  That's interesting as I had thought the other way around.

 

So, OK, SG..I will do as you say...and Kgirl...does what SG suggested parallel your method at all?  The C/C/H is, to me, easier to remember than cutting based on the day of the taper.  I'm bound to get that one screwed up!  But then I never thought I would be able to understand a MT, period and now it seems simple. 

 

I plan to do something tomorrow.  How about the SG plan of .001, .001, hold?  Right, SG? Am I good to go?

 

Mana,

 

Goodness, go slow to start! You've got a good plan in front of you. I had faith in you all along, being able to understand MT. You'll easily get your sea legs. 

 

Bennie

[[Kg...]]

Bennie: I love your signature and I can't wait until it reads 0.00!!

[[my...]]

Kgirl,

Boy do I get the day to day issue!  We have been retired for a while...I consulted after retiring then we moved up here where there are no jobs (!!) or they pay 1/3 of what I was making before.  That's when my husband suggested I take up writing again which I did.  I wrote for 5 years, consistently, like it was a job!! producing three unsold screenplays and one novel.  I was happy writing and would like to get back to it, but as hard as it was to resume after a couple of years off, resuming now, during this taper is probably not going to happen either.

 

Did you think C/C/H is going more quickly than the 10 cuts every 14 days?  SG where are you??? 

I have to get ready for an appointment or I would work it out....sometimes I can actually do things with numbers. 

 

Take care,

Mana 

 

[[...]]

SG and Kgirl,

Thank you  ....yes, I know, SG, I am focused on an end date which, of course has been pushed further and further out due to holds I mentioned.  Hmm....start slow and ramp up if possible?  That's interesting as I had thought the other way around.

 

So, OK, SG..I will do as you say...and Kgirl...does what SG suggested parallel your method at all?  The C/C/H is, to me, easier to remember than cutting based on the day of the taper.  I'm bound to get that one screwed up!  But then I never thought I would be able to understand a MT, period and now it seems simple. 

 

As far as the house project, I think, like our tapers, everyone is different.  Our house is really fine...it's just that there are things I'd like to do at some point, but they are not necessary improvements - totally discretionary - so I think they can wait.  We wouldn't have to move out for long according to our contractor - it would certainly be a disruption.  Since we are home more b/c we are retired - even with my husband out playing golf and tennis - I think it would be a lot for me to handle when I could easily put it off for a year.  But thanks again for your response.  I think it helped as the fact of having people around all day long is, beside the money!, a huge drawback for me.

 

So, back to the taper.  Today is day 10 of my last cut.  I plan to do something tomorrow.  How about the SG plan of .001, .001, hold?  Right, SG? Am I good to go?

 

I think c/c/h is a good place to begin.  When beginning a new method I think there is a lot of value in having immediate success and c/c/h should ensure that.  Then you can move on after a few weeks of test driving.  If you want to jump in at .001g every day that is not unreasonable either, given your history.